New Ship Classes - The Transition

[Legostone]

@Bregir The values I proposed for my vessels above was just to see how well they would fit their respective aimed class. I'm gonna work out something in the end. 

Right now I'm just glad that I finally managed to get a spreadsheet to work where I can enter the results for all ships, it automatically checks which where active and spreads out the upkeep among those who own shares in them. The flaws in having shares for each and every ship and having them spread out among multiple active owners... At least this means that we only pay ~1300DBs in Upkeep instead of ~4500. 

Btw, is there any reason you had to stay with 0 to 10 for the classes and not simply go with 11? Could have made the 6th-1st rate system a good comparision for the classes >5...

[Kolonialbeamter]

17 minutes ago, Legostone said:

Btw, is there any reason you had to stay with 0 to 10 for the classes and not simply go with 11?

Darn, we should have gone to eleven! 

 

[Maxim I]

One question: Are NPC factions bound to the upkeep as well?

=> For example, a few weeks ago, Mardier had a fleet of about 50 warships. I am pretty sure this would result in an enormous upkeep...

(just random amounts filled in)

amount	class	upkeep	total upkeep
10	2	30	300
10	3	50	500
10	4	75	750
10	5	105	1050
5	6	140	700
5	7	175	875
	sum		4175
	modifier 300		11425

Edited May 15, 2017 by Maxim I

[Legostone]

Another thing - upkeep is 1/4 of the license cost. Do SR pay full upkeep (would make sense to me) or do they also pay less? If so, do they also get the higher upkeep rules shifted apropriatly?

edit: to add to @Maxim I shouldn't NPC nations also be limited to 110 max ships after paying the upgrade costs?

Edited May 15, 2017 by Legostone

[Bregir]

Maxim: NPC nations are not hammered out yet, but expect them to be played a different way in era two.

Legostone: I think everyone will pay the same upkeep, but we haven't discussed it yet. Will get back on this.

[Bodi]

1 hour ago, Bregir said:

I think your Drakkar could be a class two too, although it is on the small side. I would think such a vessel would have high maneuver stat, but low hull and firepower stats, for instance, considering her build. (Thes are just tips)

I see what you meant, the hull is indeed very flimsy, that's why I put it out reach of my son. 

If we take size as a criteria, I think my vessel is comparable to the example shown in class 1, maybe slightly larger, which I'm not sure. Right, that just gives me a pretext to build another 2F, with proper size.

[Bregir]

10 minutes ago, Bodi said:

I see what you meant, the hull is indeed very flimsy, that's why I put it out reach of my son. 

If we take size as a criteria, I think my vessel is comparable to the example shown in class 1, maybe slightly larger, which I'm not sure. Right, that just gives me a pretext to build another 2F, with proper size.

If we get another vessel from the Bodi shipyard by making the Drakkar a class one, that is indeed what we will do! ;)

[Maxim I]

Me again :D

Isn't the sisterslicence thingy a bit too harsh for class 6+ vessels?

If I have a class 4 trader and a class 7 warship and I lose the warship, I can't sistership the vessel...

I understand that those lower class vessels have been sistershipped too much in the past, but big vessels still are a pain in wallet to build...

Also, how far can you combine the free class 2 licence with the sistershipping rule? If you have a lvl 10+ level, does this means you can't sistership for your free licence anymore?

[Kai NRG]

So the only current active license I have is the Dark Spirit bought from Legostone which was a class 2A and is now still a Class 2 I'd assume with an obviously fairly high gun rating comparatively.  Because this is my only ship will I get refunded for the license and then re-license it as a free license?

I also own the license for the Little Tyke, previously a 1A, captured by ESL, bought in auction, un-MOCed as of yet.  It will have to stay a class 1 of course.

I have two MOCed ships that have been sunk/captured, the Filo Morado and the Golden Snake.  Previously I had decided not to sistership because I felt like the rules were just too loose and ill-defined but with the new rule system I'll re-evaluate that, probably in favor of sister-shipping, so I may as well list the two.  Filo Morado was licensed as a 5A but it's really much more of an F than an A anyways.  Not sure if it should be a 6 or 7 now.  It has a couple more guns than the current 6 example besides being patently a ship built for speed over gunpower, so that probably puts it as a 7?

The Golden Snake was a 2WR and is still a 2 I imagine.  Even if I do sistership though, I'm not sure this one is worth it. 

---

I'm also confused about upkeep; the Base Upkeep is from X to X+100 or 99... what?  Stat points?  Class levels?  DBs earned in a given run?  Garmadon, who should know, says the latter but it doesn't make the slightest amount of sense to charge 100% upkeep if it's based on DBs earned!

[Maxim I]

1 minute ago, Kai NRG said:

I have two MOCed ships that have been sunk/captured, the Filo Morado and the Golden Snake.  Previously I had decided not to sistership because I felt like the rules were just too loose and ill-defined but with the new rule system I'll re-evaluate that, probably in favor of sister-shipping, so I may as well list the two.  Filo Morado was licensed as a 5A but it's really much more of an F than an A anyways.  Not sure if it should be a 6 or 7 now.  It has a couple more guns than the current 6 example besides being patently a ship built for speed over gunpower, so that probably puts it as a 7?

 

About the Filo Morado:

The reason the current 6 is listed is because she is a trade vessel fitting class 6. So hence the low amount of guns. If it would have been based solely on guns, every class 5 warship would be a class 6 then...

The Filo Morado is a very fast vessel and with her 20 guns, a class 5 would be misfitting (most of the original class 5HA's are still class 5. The requirement for a 5HA was 20 guns).

So a vessel with range 5 - manouver 4 - guns 5 - crew 4 - cargo 2 - hull 4 would be a possibility.

Note, you suggested yourself she would be a 6F when you posted her :p

[Kai NRG]

1 hour ago, Maxim I said:

Note, you suggested yourself she would be a 6F when you posted her :p

I know, but I didn't really know what the classes would be like.   And I still admit that she should maybe be a class 6.  I'm not really sure.  The point is, it would seem strange that an F would have more guns than a normal trader of the same class.  I'd think an F would have about the least amount of guns of any ship in that class.  But mine has more than the example, besides being longer.

[Capt Wolf]

I am not ready to finalize stats for new licenses, but here are my current ship licenses (Capt Wolf):

   2WR Lady of Madrice II (considering relicensing as a class 3)
   4T2 Far Horizon (considering relicensing as a class 5)
   4A Sleeping Siren II (considering relicensing as a class 5)
   5T La Contessa de Victoria (considering relicensing as a class 6 or 7)
   5F Piece of Eight

Can I also get your opinion on what class this would be? Would it be closer to a class 4 now?

****

And those owned by the MCTC:

   4T2 Jon El Flurry
   5T Prince Fernando (considering relicensing as a class 6)

 

 

[Kwatchi]

Here's the ships for my brother and I. Not interested in diving into the new stat system atm. 

Kwatchi:

Peregrine - Class 5LA - active

Lost Soul's Tide - dry dock/unlicensed

Sirrus - class 3T2 - active

 

GulagUrag:

Puck's Jest - Class 5HA - active

Night's Whisper - Class 2A - active

Migery - Class 5HA - drydock/licensed capture/MOC in progress

[Bregir]

2 hours ago, Kai NRG said:

I'm also confused about upkeep;

Each ship has a base upkeep. Each mrca, your base upkeep for all active vessels is added up. The first 100 dbs of base upkeep is free. The next 100 (from 101 to 200) is charged at 100 %, the next at 150 %, etc. It may seem complicated, but it really isn't! We've even supplied you with a simple calculator

Also, Garm likes doing math with Crayons... Don't ask him for advice!

2 hours ago, Kai NRG said:

the Filo Morado

I agree with Maxim and think she is fitting for a class 6. Compare her size (that is all that matters) to the class 5 and 6 archetypes. Class 7 is ships like the Margot and Bodi's large frigate, which are both considerably bulkier. (As always, though, I take no responsibility for my evaluations of the sizes of your and Garm's vessel, though! )

28 minutes ago, Capt Wolf said:

I am not ready to finalize stats for new licenses, but here are my current ship licenses (Capt Wolf):

   2WR Lady of Madrice II (considering relicensing as a class 3)
   4T2 Far Horizon (considering relicensing as a class 5)
   4A Sleeping Siren II
   5T La Contessa de Victoria (considering relicensing as a class 6 or 7)
   5F Piece of Eight

And those owned by the MCTC:

   4T2 Jon El Flurry
   5T Prince Fernando (considering relicensing as a class 6)

 

 

The pictures are broken in most of your original topics, Capt Wolf! Otherwise, I would have happily given my input, but now, all is see is "something.jpg". Would this be possible to fix?

 

[Capt Wolf]

Just now, Bregir said:

The pictures are broken in most of your original topics, Capt Wolf! Otherwise, I would have happily given my input, but now, all is see is "something.jpg". Would this be possible to fix?

This is because all my pics are hosted on Brickshelf, which has been down since Sunday morning. (The ones you see are originally from Legostone, who uses a different hosting site.) Once Brickshelf is back up, my pics will be visible.

[MKJoshA]

Can someone confirm that the Range 1-6 limits means no ship can travel further than 6 zones per MCRA? For example, this past MCRA you could travel as far as 8-10 zones in distance, would that no longer be allowed?

[Bregir]

Just now, MKJoshA said:

Can someone confirm that the Range 1-6 limits means no ship can travel further than 6 zones per MCRA? For example, this past MCRA you could travel as far as 8-10 zones in distance, would that no longer be allowed?

I don't think we can do that yet. It really depends on how movement will be handled in the new MRCA (and how big the zones will be). It is possible that the range will be x + the range stat. (That is the last I heard)

[Capt Wolf]

5 minutes ago, Bregir said:

I don't think we can do that yet. It really depends on how movement will be handled in the new MRCA (and how big the zones will be). It is possible that the range will be x + the range stat. (That is the last I heard)

So how can we reasonably design our ships if we don't know what impact the stats will have? Do we need to wait until the new MRCA rules are out?

[Kai NRG]

16 minutes ago, Bregir said:

Each ship has a base upkeep. Each mrca, your base upkeep for all active vessels is added up. The first 100 dbs of base upkeep is free. The next 100 (from 101 to 200) is charged at 100 %, the next at 150 %, etc. It may seem complicated, but it really isn't! We've even supplied you with a simple calculator

Ah, I see.  But I have a feeling I missed something... where can I see what the base upkeep is?

17 minutes ago, Bregir said:

Also, Garm likes doing math with Crayons... Don't ask him for advice!

Point taken. 

18 minutes ago, Bregir said:

I agree with Maxim and think she is fitting for a class 6. Compare her size (that is all that matters) to the class 5 and 6 archetypes. Class 7 is ships like the Margot and Bodi's large frigate, which are both considerably bulkier. (As always, though, I take no responsibility for my evaluations of the sizes of your and Garm's vessel, though! )

There certainly can be no doubt that she's not nearly as bulky as the archetypes.  But then, she is an F, and an F shouldn't be as bulk (and, tbh, the lines are a little more modern than typical age of sail anyhow).  She's probably about 70 studs long not including the bowsprit, which is probably 10 studs or so shorter than the Margot sans bowsprit (though the Filo has a longer bowsprit) and a great deal longer than the Alejandro.  But of course longer is just what one would expect from a F.  It is true that the sail plan is closer to the Alejandro.  But then, someone criticized me for not having three masts...   Anyways I'm open to hearing whatever other opinions there are but it seems like so far the general opinion is that she's a 6, so that's probably what she will end up being.

[Bregir]

Just now, Capt Wolf said:

So how can we reasonably design our ships if we don't know what impact the stats will have? Do we need to wait until the new MRCA rules are out?

Calm down, people. No one is asking you to design your ships yet, only to state which ships you have (to be refunded) and what class you think they fit into in the new scheme. (For peer-review)

You will design the exact stats when you license the ship.

Also, the new MRCA rules will come out when they are ready. I can't just pull them out of a hat. (Especially since they are not in my hat! )

Last, the stats do what they say. But, the range might be modified. Higher range stat will still mean a higher range, though!

1 minute ago, Kai NRG said:

probably 10 studs or so shorter than the Margot

10 studs shorter and less bulky (and with one deck less) seems like a good indicator that it needs to be of a lower class, don't you think?

And for the record, sail plan is basicly irrelevant for what class a ship falls into. Only size matters! (No matter what you are told elsewhere )

[MKJoshA]

3 hours ago, Maxim I said:

Me again :D

Isn't the sisterslicence thingy a bit too harsh for class 6+ vessels?

If I have a class 4 trader and a class 7 warship and I lose the warship, I can't sistership the vessel...

I understand that those lower class vessels have been sistershipped too much in the past, but big vessels still are a pain in wallet to build...

Also, how far can you combine the free class 2 licence with the sistershipping rule? If you have a lvl 10+ level, does this means you can't sistership for your free licence anymore?

The rule should say "level." It's supposed to be 10 owned/managed ships regardless of level. So you could own 10 class 9 vessels and still be able to sistership them if you lost 1 or more. But if you owned 11, you couldn't sistership until you were back down to 10 or fewer. @Kolonialbeamter can you fix that?

[gedren_y]

Under the previous MRCA rules, Speed value was used for both determining moves in conflict and the amount of ports that could be visited (not the amount of zones used to visit those ports). The new system seems to have split this into the Range and Maneuver stats. Am I correct?

[Garmadon]

3 hours ago, Kai NRG said:

I'm also confused about upkeep; the Base Upkeep is from X to X+100 or 99... what?  Stat points?  Class levels?  DBs earned in a given run?  Garmadon, who should know, says the latter but it doesn't make the slightest amount of sense to charge 100% upkeep if it's based on DBs earned!

Wait, what?  I didn't say that!  Or maybe I just misunderstood your question    Good point that there seems to be missing something about what the base upkeep is in the About Ships thread where it should be... If I recall correctly, however, it is 25% of the licence cost (will make sure and see to it that it's added if it is not already there, hidden somewhere or other ).

My ships:

Licenced:

Fog–Breaker - here (Currently licences as a 3F) - (Class 3, R3, M3, 1F, 1Cr, 3Ca, 4H)

Shooting Shuriken - here (Currently licenced as a 2F, free licence) - (Class 2, 3R, 4M, 0F, 1Cr, 2Ca, 2H)

Unlicenced:

The Henri - here (Class 7, 6R, 5M, 1F, 2Cr, 8Ca, H5)

Disembodied Licences:

Floating Eyepatch (Class 1WR, now simply a Class 1)

Plunging Dagger (Class 4A, now simply a Class 4)

[Capt Wolf]

24 minutes ago, Garmadon said:

what the base upkeep is

As I understand it, base upkeep is the total cost of upkeep for your ships, without modifiers. The first 100DBs of upkeep cost is ignored, it's free. The next 100DBs of upkeep costs exactly that, 100DBs. The next 100DBs of "base" upkeep you incur cost you 150DBs. The next 200DBs of "base" upkeep would cost you 400DBs. And, of course, edit the final bracket you end up in for the appropriate fraction.

So, for example, if you own a class 2 ship and a class 3 ship, they have upkeep costs of 30DBs and 50DBs respectively. Since your total "base" upkeep is 80, you owe nothing (0DBs) for upkeep.

If, instead, you own a class 2 and a class 4, their upkeep is 30 and 75, so your base upkeep is 105. The first 100 is free, so you have a total upkeep cost for your fleet of 5DBs.

And what if you own a class 2, a class 4, and a class 5, with upkeeps of 30, 75, and 105 respectively, totaling a base upkeep of 210? My first 100 is free, I pay 100DBs for the next 100, and the remaining 10 is treated at 150%, or 15DBs. So I would owe 115DBs for operating these three ships.

One more example: if you have a class 1, class 2, class 3, class 4, and class 7 all active in an MRCA, your base upkeep would be 15+30+50+75+175=345. First 100 free, next 100 at cost, next 100 at 150%, and last 45 at 200% = 0+100+150+90=340DBs total upkeep cost.

Also, I'm only charged for a ship if it participates in the MRCA. If it sits one out, it doesn't count toward base upkeep for that month.

Does any of that help?

[Garmadon]

Just now, Capt Wolf said:

As I understand it, base upkeep is the total cost of upkeep for your ships, without modifiers. The first 100DBs of upkeep cost is ignored, it's free. The next 100DBs of upkeep costs exactly that, 100DBs. The next 100DBs of "base" upkeep you incur cost you 150DBs. The next 200DBs of "base" upkeep would cost you 400DBs. And, of course, edit the final bracket you end up in for the appropriate fraction.

So, for example, if you own a class 2 ship and a class 3 ship, they have upkeep costs of 30DBs and 50DBs respectively. Since your total "base" upkeep is 80, you owe nothing (0DBs) for upkeep.

If, instead, you own a class 2 and a class 4, their upkeep is 30 and 75, so your base upkeep is 105. The first 100 is free, so you have a total upkeep cost for your fleet of 5DBs.

And what if you own a class 2, a class 4, and a class 5, with upkeeps of 30, 75, and 105 respectively, totaling a base upkeep of 210? My first 100 is free, I pay 100DBs for the next 100, and the remaining 10 is treated at 150%, or 15DBs. So I would owe 115DBs for operating these three ships.

Also, I'm only charged for a ship if it participates in the MRCA. If it sits one out, it doesn't count toward base upkeep for that month.

Does any of that help?

Yes, I get that (but thanks for the explanation anyways!  ) - I was just saying that I couldn't find anything in the About Ships thread (or here, for that matter) specifying that the "base upkeep" is, in fact, equal to 25% of the ship's licencing cost, which ought to be stated there