New Ship Classes - The Transition

[Legostone]

@MKJoshA Have fun paying 890 DBs in Upkeep a month :D

name	class	price	upkeep (base)	total upkeep
	30		596	890
Freddys Rowboat	0	24	6	8.959731544
Golden Dragon	3	200	50	74.66442953
Viper	2	120	30	44.79865772
Darting Frog	5	420	105	156.795302
Morning Fog	7	700	175	261.3255034
Pineapple Revenge	3	200	50	74.66442953
Clearance	4	300	75	111.9966443
Tigerlily	2	120	30	44.79865772
Warped Wood	4	300	75	111.9966443

 

 

Update for the Eslandolan Fleet:

Dread Treasure II	5HA -> 7	Maxim I	topic
Oscuridad	5HA -> 6	Legostone	topic
La Raya Venenosa	5HA -> 6	Legostone	topic
Golden Grasshopper	5HA -> 6	Gedren_y	topic
Stormbringer II	5HA -> 6	Capt Wolf	topic
Beluga II	5HA	Maxim I	topic
Cannonball	5HA	capture
Logan's Nightmare	5A	capture
Victoria	5LA	Legostone	topic
Firefly	5LA	Gedren_y	topic
Argenta	5LA	capture
La Salamandra	4A	Kabel	topic
Asesino II	4A	Phadeout	topic
The Gallant	4A	Captain Green Hair	topic
Maiden of the Deep	4A	capture, mocced	topic
Blood Diamond	4A	capture
Plump Patty	4A	capture
Long Beard	4A	capture
Inflexible	4A	capture

 

@gedren_y I hope I fixed it ;)

Edited June 1, 2017 by Legostone

[gedren_y]

Good, quick work, @Legostone.

Edited May 31, 2017 by gedren_y

[MKJoshA]

1 hour ago, Legostone said:

@MKJoshA Have fun paying 890 DBs in Upkeep a month :D

name	class	price	upkeep (base)	total upkeep
	30		596	890
Freddys Rowboat	0	24	6	8.959731544
Golden Dragon	3	200	50	74.66442953
Viper	2	120	30	44.79865772
Darting Frog	5	420	105	156.795302
Morning Fog	7	700	175	261.3255034
Pineapple Revenge	3	200	50	74.66442953
Clearance	4	300	75	111.9966443
Tigerlily	2	120	30	44.79865772
Warped Wood	4	300	75	111.9966443

 

Hmmm, yeah that's not okay. As a pirate I refuse to pay this ridiculous fee! I'll just steer all my ships to Tortuga.

[Capt Wolf]

Just now, MKJoshA said:

I'll just steer all my ships to Tortuga.

Is "Tortuga" now pirate-speak for "drydock"?

[Legostone]

37 minutes ago, MKJoshA said:

Hmmm, yeah that's not okay. As a pirate I refuse to pay this ridiculous fee! I'll just steer all my ships to Tortuga.

I can understand you pretty well. Just imagine I would have licensed all the ships I've built this far... Given last months MRCA income for all of these I would be a couple hundred DBs in the negative. I'll keep on complaining about the high upkeep ;)

Spoiler

name	class	price	upkeep (base)	total upkeep
	112		2350	5950
Tribute	4	300	75	189.893617
Esprit Fortune	7	700	175	443.0851064
Cardinal II	7	700	175	443.0851064
Victoria	5	420	105	265.8510638
Piece of Eight	5	420	105	265.8510638
Shooting Shuriken	2	120	30	75.95744681
Jon El Flurry	4	300	75	189.893617
La Presta Canosa	2	120	30	75.95744681
Reventazon	4	300	75	189.893617
La Raya Venenosa	6	560	140	354.4680851
Oscuridad	6	560	140	354.4680851
Dark Spirit	3	200	50	126.5957447
El Rubi	4	300	75	189.893617
Esmeralda	5	420	105	265.8510638
HMS Badger	5	420	105	265.8510638
Colour of the Wind	5	420	105	265.8510638
Green Winds II	5	420	105	265.8510638
Dragon's Revenge	6	560	140	354.4680851
Pride of Elysabethtown/Santiago	7	700	175	443.0851064
Arkady	2	120	30	75.95744681
Wringe II	2	120	30	75.95744681
War Dwarf/Justicia	4	300	75	189.893617
Wind's Beauty	3	200	50	126.5957447
Rojo Tormento	5	420	105	265.8510638
Mac Quinnes	4	300	75	189.893617

2

...And only using those ships I actually plan on using I'll be sitting at ~300-1060 DBs of upkeep.

[MKJoshA]

4 hours ago, Legostone said:

I can understand you pretty well. Just imagine I would have licensed all the ships I've built this far... Given last months MRCA income for all of these I would be a couple hundred DBs in the negative. I'll keep on complaining about the high upkeep ;)

  Reveal hidden contents

name	class	price	upkeep (base)	total upkeep
	112		2350	5950
Tribute	4	300	75	189.893617
Esprit Fortune	7	700	175	443.0851064
Cardinal II	7	700	175	443.0851064
Victoria	5	420	105	265.8510638
Piece of Eight	5	420	105	265.8510638
Shooting Shuriken	2	120	30	75.95744681
Jon El Flurry	4	300	75	189.893617
La Presta Canosa	2	120	30	75.95744681
Reventazon	4	300	75	189.893617
La Raya Venenosa	6	560	140	354.4680851
Oscuridad	6	560	140	354.4680851
Dark Spirit	3	200	50	126.5957447
El Rubi	4	300	75	189.893617
Esmeralda	5	420	105	265.8510638
HMS Badger	5	420	105	265.8510638
Colour of the Wind	5	420	105	265.8510638
Green Winds II	5	420	105	265.8510638
Dragon's Revenge	6	560	140	354.4680851
Pride of Elysabethtown/Santiago	7	700	175	443.0851064
Arkady	2	120	30	75.95744681
Wringe II	2	120	30	75.95744681
War Dwarf/Justicia	4	300	75	189.893617
Wind's Beauty	3	200	50	126.5957447
Rojo Tormento	5	420	105	265.8510638
Mac Quinnes	4	300	75	189.893617

2

...And only using those ships I actually plan on using I'll be sitting at ~300-1060 DBs of upkeep.

Yeah, that's a lot of DBs. I wasn't privy to the thought process behind the upkeep numbers, so I'll be interested to see how it plays out. Maybe the intention is for everyone to be able to afford fewer ships, so there are fewer ships to keep track of? The upkeep rules also seem to favor those who have trade ships. As the owner of almost all class A vessels, I don't get a lot of DBs after an MCRA. So that means after 1 or 2 runs, all my saved DBs will be gone from upkeep and I won't be able to afford sailing at all. That or I sail with fewer vessels each month which I'm sure ESL wouldn't mind. Wait... was ESL in charge of making these rules? 

[Maxim I]

11 hours ago, MKJoshA said:

And here are all of my ships:

 

Morning Fog - Class 5HA - maybe upgrade to a 7A?

I think the rule is that captured licences can't be upgraded...

@Bregir: I am right, right?

[Bregir]

1 hour ago, Maxim I said:

I think the rule is that captured licences can't be upgraded...

@Bregir: I am right, right?

In this particular case, MKJosha will be refunded his ownership of the Morning Fog. 

In the relicensing process, whether he relicensing that moc as the morning fog or the original jade piranha shouldn't matter. It is a special case because we are refunding and relicensing from scratch. And for continuity's sake, it makes the most sense to relicensing the Morning Fog, as the other is sunk. If the moc  is large enough for a class 7, then I see no issue. Same for everyone. 

Also, I am not sure we agree on that rule you mention, as I think we had a ruling to the opposite at some point(?), but in any case, it does not apply in this particular case. 

Sounds reasonable? 

As to upkeep... 

1) I personally very much enjoy the futile complaints by the rich about taxes, and I tend to feel the same about these upkeep complaints :P On the other hand, some of the class 5's last MRCA brought in neigh on 1,000 shiny golden coins. 

2) Upkeep rule may seem harsh for pirates, but keep in mind that it will also keep in port many of the escorts, unless the Royal coffers are to empty prematurely. 

3) Upkeep is designed to give you very new players a chance. If everyone else sails with massive fleets, how would you feel in your class 2? 

4) Sending your ships out is supposed to be a choice, not a given. Choices make a game interesting. It isn't just a simulation for you to watch ;) 

[Legostone]

I suppose Bregir is right - this far, class 5 vessels pretty much paid for themselves with their first run. If I include losses the average class 5 merchant vessel I've built brought in 464 DBs/MRCA and got lost in 1/12th of the runs. Oddly enough, my average class 4 merchant brought in 461 DBs/MRCA and wasn't lost once.

Also, is anyone or anything stopping me from licensing 60 class 0 vessels? (Upkeep 370 DBs, initial cost 1440 DBs) in this configuration:

statpoints

Range

Maneuver

Firepower

Crew

Cargo

Hull

6

2

1

0

0

3

0

(I wish I would have the time )

[Bregir]

I do indeed believe that running the numbers will show that it really isn't that unfair ;) 

And we would probably stop you if you tried doing that. ;) Generally, it would be really nice if people would look for all the great opportunities the rules open up for, rather than searching for possible exploits :P

The point is to make having a few small vessels sensible, rather than letting them be crowded out by larger ones. :) 

[Jacob Nion]

8 hours ago, MKJoshA said:

Yeah, that's a lot of DBs. I wasn't privy to the thought process behind the upkeep numbers, so I'll be interested to see how it plays out. Maybe the intention is for everyone to be able to afford fewer ships, so there are fewer ships to keep track of? The upkeep rules also seem to favor those who have trade ships. As the owner of almost all class A vessels, I don't get a lot of DBs after an MCRA. So that means after 1 or 2 runs, all my saved DBs will be gone from upkeep and I won't be able to afford sailing at all. That or I sail with fewer vessels each month which I'm sure ESL wouldn't mind. Wait... was ESL in charge of making these rules? 

Aye, that is an issue I was wondering about myself a lot. In general I appreciate the upkeep. It's just logical that when I plan a voyage for a ship I need to buy supplies and gunpowder and in case of a trade vessel or a royal warship pay the sailors and soldiers.

I think Ska mentioned once that there would be an option to plunder doubloons from captured ships. I hope so, because without such a feature there would be no value in piracy anymore. And for game play I always felt that piracy should be a way of playing of equal value to trading. 

So, don't take me for someone who yells for better conditions for the own faction because I want advantages over the others. 

But if it turns out at some point that pred runs don't bring in enough I would suggest *shudder* lower upkeep for Sea Rats. But really only if we reach a point where pirating gets not lucrative anymore. You know all that piracy means a higher risk for the owner and its the thing that keeps the game interesting. Despite most of you just want to play an economic simulation without any surprises or thrill.

And aye, it would make sense storywise, because a pirate crew gets no payment.

It's no prey, no pay. And I think it's far more likely that a pred ship finds no prey than a trader not making any profit. Sure, it can spring a leak and return to port. But in many cases these ships made at least one or two ports, so there's still a bit income. I hope you see my point. Gamewise it is harder to hunt for a merchant vessel and steal its treasure than to simply make a trade voyage yourself and earn the doubloons directly. 

So, good people, have a heart for pirates  

Edited June 1, 2017 by Jacob Nion

[Legostone]

@Jacob Nion Given that pirates are supposedly splitting their income with their crew, why not give the SR their cheaper upkeep, but with a slightly reduced income from ships (plundering DBs from captured ships, trade runs)? 

@Bregir I was just playing with numbers - but I think I'm actually going to reduce the average ship size for the ships I control in the long run. 

class

statpoints

Range

Maneuver

Firepower

Crew

Cargo

Hull

3

15

5

4

1

0

4

1

(Btw, wouldn't it be reasonable for everything with a range higher than 1 to have a hull rating equal or higher than 1?)

[Jacob Nion]

8 minutes ago, Legostone said:

@Jacob Nion Given that pirates are supposedly splitting their income with their crew, why not give the SR their cheaper upkeep, but with a slightly reduced income from ships (plundering DBs from captured ships, trade runs)? 

@Bregir I was just playing with numbers - but I think I'm actually going to reduce the average ship size for the ships I control in the long run. 

class

statpoints

Range

Maneuver

Firepower

Crew

Cargo

Hull

3

15

5

4

1

0

4

1

(Btw, wouldn't it be reasonable for everything with a range higher than 1 to have a hull rating equal or higher than 1?)

That's the point where we have to wait for Ska's plans. But another problem I see is if I capture a trader in one of the first zones of his voyage I wouldn't be able to raid a whole lot. So even if a pirate gets the ship and a few doubloons it wouldn't pay off well. And to cover my upkeep expenses I would most likely have to sell the prize. Much effort. Not to forget the risk of being chased by pirate hunters a la Salazar. 

About the hull raiting: I guess that's upon yourself. If someone dares to send out a ship with low hull stats on a long voyage its more likely that the ship will crack I suppose. 

[Bregir]

Hull rating is, AFAIK only relevant for battles. Look at it like so: Range determines how well the vessel sails on the high seas, while hull rating determines its ability to withstand gunfire. If this changes, you will see it in the MRCA rules, but I don't expect it to do so. :) 

As to pirates, I think we will try to implement some sort of direct monetary loot from capture, but the main value is likely to be the prize itself. So selling it may certainly be necessary in some cases, and I don't think we would want to change that? Also, the new MRCA will most likely result in more lone traders, so I think it may become more profitable (if also a bit more risky) to be a pirate. (And escorts will probably be more limited) 

@Legostone: Well, as long as you follow the rules (letter AND intent ;)) you are free to do as you please. Just note that smaller ships may be cheaper, but they are also likely to be easier prey. ;) 

[Garmadon]

1 hour ago, Jacob Nion said:

Aye, that is an issue I was wondering about myself a lot. In general I appreciate the upkeep. It's just logical that when I plan a voyage for a ship I need to buy supplies and gunpowder and in case of a trade vessel or a royal warship pay the sailors and soldiers.

I think Ska mentioned once that there would be an option to plunder doubloons from captured ships. I hope so, because without such a feature there would be no value in piracy anymore. And for game play I always felt that piracy should be a way of playing of equal value to trading...

 This whole post.  I especially want to see this put into place, though - I know that there was a mechanic in the old MRCA for trade ships to be captured with their cargo or part of their cargo, and I'm not sure how it came about that it never seemed to have been used... At any rate, it's definitely something I want to see addressed in the new MRCA - as you say, with the upkeep rules, there has to be some good way for a pirate to make his DBs while out on business (besides just the dubious one of selling captured ships)! 

[Legostone]

Just now, Garmadon said:

 This whole post.  I especially want to see this put into place, though - I know that there was a mechanic in the old MRCA for trade ships to be captured with their cargo or part of their cargo, and I'm not sure how it came about that it never seemed to have been used... At any rate, it's definitely something I want to see addressed in the new MRCA - as you say, with the upkeep rules, there has to be some good way for a pirate to make his DBs while out on business (besides just the dubious one of selling captured ships)! 

 

I think basically no trade ships were captured in the old MRCA (outside of a couple of Marderian ones) - this could explain that issue :P (I think the last ~5 MRCAs had the majority of merchants at least protected by 2 escorts if not more, basically preventing any attack from succeeding). Most non-warships that were lost in the past couple MRCAs were usually either lost or captured by NPCs.

[Maxim I]

4 minutes ago, Garmadon said:

 This whole post.  I especially want to see this put into place, though - I know that there was a mechanic in the old MRCA for trade ships to be captured with their cargo or part of their cargo, and I'm not sure how it came about that it never seemed to have been used... At any rate, it's definitely something I want to see addressed in the new MRCA - as you say, with the upkeep rules, there has to be some good way for a pirate to make his DBs while out on business (besides just the dubious one of selling captured ships)! 

I do follow my Piraty friends in this, a pirate can capture a vessel with cargo and sell both (or keep the vessel and sell the cargo).

[Capt Wolf]

I've always wondered why we don't have a mechanism for pirates receiving the value of a captured ship's cargo. This seems like something we should be able to work into the new MRCA rules, doesn't it?

And if we do work this into the new rules, would this be a reason for armed ships used for piracy to have/need some space devoted to cargo?

[Legostone]

19 minutes ago, Capt Wolf said:

I've always wondered why we don't have a mechanism for pirates receiving the value of a captured ship's cargo. This seems like something we should be able to work into the new MRCA rules, doesn't it?

And if we do work this into the new rules, would this be a reason for armed ships used for piracy to have/need some space devoted to cargo?

 

Given that they are transporting home the captured ship I suppose the cargo can still be stored in the captured ship. Considering upkeep is now a thing - it might be another idea to consider upkeep in repairs and crew payment - which could be added to what gets captured with the ship (as in: cargo value + 1/2 upkeep)

[Bregir]

Let's avoid adding too many new mechanics in general (eg. Repairs and new crew). 

In any case, adding some form of "loot" to ships taking prizes should be very easy. 

[Legostone]

22 minutes ago, Bregir said:

Let's avoid adding too many new mechanics in general (eg. Repairs and new crew). 

In any case, adding some form of "loot" to ships taking prizes should be very easy. 

 

I'm not saying "add this mechanic", I'm saying "maybe give those capturing a vessel half its base upkeep+some other stuff and explain it with upkeep consisting out of repairs and crew payment" ;)

[MKJoshA]

15 hours ago, Bregir said:

1) I personally very much enjoy the futile complaints by the rich about taxes, and I tend to feel the same about these upkeep complaints :P On the other hand, some of the class 5's last MRCA brought in neigh on 1,000 shiny golden coins. 

 

13 hours ago, Legostone said:

I suppose Bregir is right - this far, class 5 vessels pretty much paid for themselves with their first run. If I include losses the average class 5 merchant vessel I've built brought in 464 DBs/MRCA and got lost in 1/12th of the runs. Oddly enough, my average class 4 merchant brought in 461 DBs/MRCA and wasn't lost once.

I'm not rich, yet I have complaints. What category does that put me in? Your argument is only valid for Class 5 trade ships. None of the Class 5A ships brought in any DBs.

 

10 hours ago, Legostone said:

I think basically no trade ships were captured in the old MRCA (outside of a couple of Marderian ones) - this could explain that issue :P (I think the last ~5 MRCAs had the majority of merchants at least protected by 2 escorts if not more, basically preventing any attack from succeeding). Most non-warships that were lost in the past couple MRCAs were usually either lost or captured by NPCs.

I've captured at least 2 trade ships, maybe more. And I never received DBs for cargo. Same with the Sea Rat Faction ships, they've captured a couple trade ships and never got DBs.

[Capt Wolf]

4 minutes ago, MKJoshA said:

I've captured at least 2 trade ships, maybe more. And I never received DBs for cargo. Same with the Sea Rat Faction ships, they've captured a couple trade ships and never got DBs.

And fixing that is what we're advocating: pirates should get some value of a ship's cargo in addition to the ship when they capture it.

[Bregir]

6 hours ago, MKJoshA said:

 

I'm not rich, yet I have complaints. What category does that put me in? Your argument is only valid for Class 5 trade ships. None of the Class 5A ships brought in any DBs.

Fist of all, it puts you firmly in the (arguably large :P) category of people who didn't understand that it was meant as a joke... :P

Second, though, how do you define wealth? :P I am pretty sure that many new(-ish) players would think you rather rich with all those ships ;)  At least they represent a considerable asset value :) 

On pirates:

Yes, I am confident we will introduce some monetary cargo value to prizes (probably dependent on cargo hold size). If not, remind us. However, you are to consider that the captured prize also represents a considerable value, although not in terms of liquidity. So for balance sake, the cargo value will probably not be similar to trade value. 

Last, remember that high upkeep only applies to players who send out large fleets. Sending out a limited number of vessels results in entirely different levels of upkeep. :) 

[MKJoshA]

6 hours ago, Bregir said:

Last, remember that high upkeep only applies to players who send out large fleets. Sending out a limited number of vessels results in entirely different levels of upkeep. :) 

However, as has been stated by a few people, sending a large fleet of trade ships will usually pay for itself. There's always risk, but the odds of a good return are decent with trade ships. But sending a large fleet of Class A ships does not pay for itself. Let's say one of my Class 5A ships captures a 4A. I sell it for 300-400 DBs. That's still less than what a Class 5 trade ship brings in.

The rules seem skewed to favor traders. You can argue that there will be fewer escorts so it'll be easier for pirates to capture ships. But they first have to afford being able to sail. And even then their return is less than the traders.