Star Wars Episode 8, The Last Jedi discussion. **SPOILERS**

[Evolved Turtle]

I was shocked at this movie. I found myself applauding longer than others at the end of the movie for taking so many huge risks- and for the most part, they are done EXTREMELY well.

 

The opening scene was great. The humor didn’t fit in 100% but was still pretty funny.

 

Now onto characters. Surprisingly, I really like what they did with Hux. I didn’t really take him seriously in TFA(apart from a sick speech which I soon memorized) so I think it was appropriate to turn him into a silly mustache-twirling villain. Vice Admiral Holdo was interesting. At first I thought she was just another one of those condescending authority figures like Mace Windu, or Chief Bozo in Zootopia, or Kerchak from Tarzan(anyone remember that movie?). Anyways, once we found out her true intention, I thought, “why didn’t she just tell Poe earlier?” Honestly though, this was made up for with one of THE best deaths in Star Wars. Holy hell, if I had to choose how to die in Star Wars, it would be by annihilation by lightspeed-ing my way through the Supremacy(which looked pretty cool before, you know).

 

I don’t get why Rose gets so much hate. Yeah, there isn’t anything special about her, but nothing horrible either. With a few tweaks she could have been okay. Near the end, instead of crashing into Finn’s speeder and allowing the First Order to break into the base on Crait, a part of me wishes she had simply knocked him out of the way and sacrificed herself instead. It would have been SO impactful considering her sister did something similar in the beginning. But hey, I didn’t really buy the whole Rey-Finn thing anyways.

 

Holy crap did Rian Johnson nail an old Luke Skywalker. He’s a sort of old grumpy hermit who doesn’t want anything to do with this galactic conflict simply because he thinks he’ll make it worse, but at the same time, he’s still Luke. And can we mention his death scene?! Holy crap, I wish I could watch that scene alone over and over. This is the perfect way for Luke to go. Not killed in a lightsaber fight, not some heroic sacrifice in the middle of battle. Just becoming one with the Force in front of twin suns. TWIN SUNS!

 

Leia was interesting in this movie. I’m glad they didn’t kill her in the beginning like we all thought. When she’s floating around in space and uses the force to pull herself back to the Raddus, my jaw dropped 100 feet through the Earth’s crust. I don’t care how derpy that looks, Leia is using the force!

 

Okay, it does look pretty derpy.

 

Rey and Kylo are great, but I’m still not sure how I feel about the way they end up. On one hand I think it would have been predictable if they teamed up, but at the same time it would have been FRICKIN’ AMAZING. The little segments where they talk through the force are great too. 

 

Snoke. Snoke Snoke Snoke Snoke Snoke. What a guy. I wish he had more screen time, yes. But when he died, oh man, that was amazing. It’s almost like Rian Johnson is trolling us for thinking too hard about Snoke’s identity. (To be honest, I doubt he’s gone forever. If he IS Darth Plagueis he can probably just resurrect himself)

 

Phasma? Meh. I’m sure she survived with a scar or something.

 

Um... *googles Benicio Del Toro* DJ, yes I know his name, of course. DJ was kinda meh as well. I like how he didn’t have a change of heart and end up saving them, and also that one line he said about living free and not joining, but it felt like too much of a coincidence that he was in the same jail cell as Finn and Rose.

 

Nothing needs to be said about Yoda. He’s Yoda.

 

 

okay, I’m too tired to write anymore, I’ll just leave it at that.

 

 

[roadstermatt]

I really enjoyed the film to be honest

 

yes there are questionable bits science physics stuff but there always is in star wars films and its escapism so who really cares

 

remember this is not a documentary or a historical event film its a story indeed a space fairy tail

 

the last jedi is not the best film in the series and its not the worst it probably hovers in the middle of those two positions some where   

 

some of the new characters / creatures were good some less so one, one that I did like that I didn't think I would were the porgs

especially the bit with Chewbacca by the camp fire yummy crispy roasted porg

 The DJ character was a waste of a good actor I think it gave very little to the film

 

And Vice Admiral Holdo I liked went out with a literal bang, what I cant understand was the big thing in the press a few weeks ago making a big thing about the character being the first "LGBT" character other than her holding Leias hand where the hell did that come from, not that I would have had an issue if she had of been, but why was that topic brought up  

 

I do have one other question I cannot remember if any one said the "I have a bad feeling about this" line was the line used? and if so by who and when ? as it must have sneaked past me

 

 

[Sir Brickalot]

5 hours ago, roadstermatt said:

 

I do have one other question I cannot remember if any one said the "I have a bad feeling about this" line was the line used? and if so by who and when ? as it must have sneaked past me

 

 

I think at the beginning when Poe is facing the Star Destroyer, it is implied that BB-8 said the line because Poe replied with “positive thoughts, buddy” or something to that effect.

[roadstermatt]

now you say that it figures many thanks

[BaneShake]

After this movie, I am glad Disney is willing to support brave choices in new Star Wars films. Since this, and Rogue One, did things that I would have guessed as darker or bleaker than I would have previously expected Disney to allow, I can now truly say the doors are wide-open. Clearly, there aren't going to be stifling creative controls put in place if they follow suit. I loved The Last Jedi, and now I don't want to wait for another two-years for the finale.

And, since this will be the last role Carrie Fisher was able to shoot before her death, I wonder how they will handle it from here on out. I feel like the most tasteful way they could do anything onscreen would just be to have Leia peacefully become one with the force at the beginning of the next one.

Edited December 17, 2017 by PepperoniBricks

[Japanbuilder]

I think with some clever edits of Leia's scenes in sick-bay(some unused footage perhaps) we can open EPIX with her a bit broken hearted and giving herself to the force then. 

So the opening crawl would be something like:

Devastated by the loss of her husband and brother, the fall of her son to the darkness and the decimation of the resistance Leia is dying. 

Feeling abandoned by her allies she calls on her closest companions to keep the flame of hope alive in a galaxy further teetering away into 

the total domination of the First Order. 

Meanwhile......blah blah Rey blah blah new rebellion blah blah. 

But yeah something like that would tie it up nicely if weakly. And frankly I don't know what else they could do unless there is a trove of unused footage from EPVII and EPVIII that can be turned into something like her commanding from afar or being tied up elsewhere. 

Although I think it would be cruel to depict her as being "busy" elsewhere at this point. This trilogy transitions us out of the OT cast and gives us new characters to stand on and new things to build going forward toward the end of EPIX. 

 

[x105Black]

After watching the movie, I felt disappointed.  Overall, I liked it.  It was good.  But there was so much not to like, so many big things.  It felt like Rian Johnson wanted to subvert things so badly he decided to subvert everything.

Here are a few negative points about the movie:

Humor:

• Yes, all Star Wars movies have humor.  The Original Trilogy had humor.  Much of it was wry, sarcastic, witty, and timeless.  The Prequel Trilogy had Jar Jar Binks bumbling through battles, C-3PO in a Battle Droid factory, and well, just bad humor.  This movie was more like the Prequel Trilogy in this regard.  The humor seemed more like a bunch of lame memes that didn't hit right rather than the clever humor of the Original Trilogy.
• While I'm glad they included humor, it was used too often to break the tension of a scene.  And when the tension is broken in every suspenseful scene, it takes you out of the moment and makes things feel anticlimactic.
• Someone mentioned the dusting of Luke's shoulder.  That was the worst one for me.  He might as well have dabbed.  Like Luke throwing the lightsaber over his shoulder, it didn't fit the tone of Star Wars, and would have been better suited to the tone of Thor: Ragnarok or a Guardians of the Galaxy movie (both of which were much better than Episode VIII).
• Poe's joke with Hux at the beginning, BB-8 plugging holes like a cartoon character in a sinking boat, the shirtless Kylo Ren joke, the BB-8 AT-ST buffoonery, pumping BB-8 full of coins, Hux's incompetence throughout the movie, all of these were bad jokes.
• Luke tickling Rey's hand with the leaf, the Jakku is basically nowhere joke, Finn waking up in the bacta suit, the joke about C-3PO's nervous expression, these jokes worked much better.  But there was so much more comedy, like the Rebel Scum line, Yoda, the rock that destroys the cart, some scenes with the Porgs, and more.  This makes it hard to accept even the good humor in this movie out of sheer volume.

Force Powers:

• I think they went a bit overboard with the force powers.  I don't really mind Leia being able to Force Pull herself to the door, but she should have suffered quite a lot more damage than what was shown, and should have probably died out there in space.
• I also don't really mind Kylo and Rey being weirdly connected through the force.  I was hoping that it would be explained as a familial connection.  I didn't really like how it was explained as a force power of Snoke being able to bridge their minds.
• And finally, Luke's interstellar astral projection didn't work for me.  He should have just left Ahch-To with Rey and actually fought Kylo Ren on Crait, especially if he was going to die immediately afterwards anyways.

Payoff:

• There were so many things that failed to pay off in this movie.  Right from the start, we get no explanation about how anyone survived the destruction of the Starkiller Base.
• They built up Snoke, but then killed him off really easily and early.  He never even got out of his chair.  I think it's fine to kill him off in this movie, but give us a little more of who he is, where he came from, and a death that actually feels like a climactic moment for such a purportedly important and powerful character.
• They built up Rey's origins in The Force Awakens with all the questions about her, and her searching for her parents, only to have her be a nobody.  The main characters of the Star Wars movies are always part of the Skywalker bloodline.  Rey is clearly the protagonist of these movies, while Kylo is the villain.  This can only be saved if either Kylo was lying, or if Rey and Kylo hook up at the end of the trilogy.  There are so many other heroic characters in the movie that are not from special bloodlines that I don't get what would be bad about the story if Rey was.  And it would tie together much better with the trilogy of trilogies as a whole if she was in some way related, especially after years of building the mystery, but instead the answer just falls flat, with no payoff.
• Phasma's death also lacks payoff.  Like Snoke, she didn't get enough time.  The battle she had with Finn was too short and anticlimactic, and she falls down into a pit like some Wile E Coyote cartoon.
• Ackbar died in such a way that I wonder why they even included him in the movie in the first place.

Wasted Time:

• A lot of time was wasted on plots that ended without a satisfying climax.  This could fit into the above header about a lack of payoff, but it was something else.
• The whole side mission to Canto Bight was pointlessly drawn out.  They spent all this time on Rose's backstory, and on the slaves and horses, when they really should have just been picking up DJ and bringing him back.  And I don't know why they bothered including Maz at all.
• Meanwhile you have the unnecessary mutiny led by Poe, which could have been avoided if Holdo had just been upfront about things in the first place.  And maybe she would have if they had let Leia die when she was blown out into space.  Instead they show Holdo as a traitor, when we could have used all the wasted time showing her actually being a competent leader, making us care a bit more about her heroic sacrifice.

There are certainly more things I could say about this, but I've already said enough, and most of it you will have read from other sources.  I might have liked it more in an empty theater, but there was a lot of reaction from the crowd.

But I do feel that the movie was beautifully made.  It looked great.  There were a lot of scenes that worked really well, like Holdo destroying Snoke's huge ship, and maybe I'll make another post about that later.  I actually enjoyed a lot of it and had a good time watching it despite my many complaints.  If I were to score it now, it would get a 2/5, and rank somewhere near the bottom of all Star Wars movies, below the Christmas Special and Ewok movies where I rank a couple Prequels and the animated Clone Wars movie.  That could go up with more time and / or more viewings, but it could go down like my scores for the Prequels have since their initial release.

I went into the movie very excited, wanting to love it.  Maybe I had over-hyped it for myself.  Maybe I had too many expectations about what I thought I would see, and too many ideas about what I wanted to see.  But all of that aside, I left the theater disappointed because the movie just had bad pacing, bad jokes, and little payoff to the big questions raised by The Force Awakens.  But it's canon now, so I will have to find a way to reconcile my feelings about this movie with my feelings about Star Wars as a whole.

That said, I don't think I have any interest in watching Rian Johnson's upcoming trilogy at the moment.

[spiderfan2000]

Wow! I just got back from seeing the movie and I thought it was great!  It was intense and constantly left me at the edge of my seat.  Some more information about Snoke would have been nice, but the massive subversion of the Return of the Jedi plot formula was executed extremely well otherwise and avoided going down the predictable route.  The humor generally wasn't overwhelming and balanced the intensity of the movie well, in my opinion.  Definitely my favorite of the Post-Disney Star Wars movies, and might make my top 3 Star Wars movies overall.

[Schneeds]

With the prequels, the plots could have been saved by better casting, acting, and dialog. 

The Last Jedi on the other hand, could not be.  The plot holes are simply too numerous and ridiculous:

1. Per TFA and Luke himself, the entire reason Luke went to Ahch-To was to find the Jedi temple.  Then Rian Johnson says just kidding, Luke went there to abandon his family and die.
2. In fact, Luke hated his family so much, he contemplated killing his sleeping kid nephew.  Never mind that in the past he refused to fight the badass father he never even knew, killing kids is fine now.
3. The Resistance escapes from their own base, but doesn't have any fuel.  Since when is fuel even a thing in Star Wars?
4. If that wasn't bad enough, the First Order is completely unable to surround and capture a single Resistance Command ship, but resigns itself to slowly chasing it.  Really?
5. Also this incompetent First Order fleet is able to track ships through lightspeed.  Somehow.  With no explanation.  It's "new tech."  Thanks Rose, I actually somehow hate you more than Jar Jar.
6. The flash back dream of Rey's and the Knights of Ren?  That didn't happen.  Remember, Luke's a child killer.   
7. Speaking of Rey, she is the absolute best at everything with literally zero training.  Force power.  Lightsabers.  Fighting in general.  Doesn't matter, she's better than Luke. 
8. Just kidding, Supreme Leader Snoke can dominate her, but then dies like a Master Jedi from Attack of the Clones.
9. If you're a fan favorite Mon Calamari, explosions on the bridge kill you.  If you're Leia, neither explosions nor the vaccum of space put a scratch on you.

There are others, and people in reviews all over have done a better job of this than me, but it's enough to demonstrate how ridiculous this movie is.  It feels like an agenda-driven attempt to marginalize and trivialize the original trilogy. 

[samurai-turtle]

I will try to put some thought down here about this move. 

The first thing is (I guess) is pacing they could not seem to stay focused on one person. It seems like it was five minutes on Rey five minutes on Finn five minutes on Poe and repeat. This was most noticeably during the Casino World part(s).  

The humor mostly fell flat I don't remember anyone chuckling once. I am wondering if it was a smaller audience for part of this issue. I don't think the theater was even half full. (Plus, no kids in the audience, sure it was a Sunday 8 o'clock showing. I guess they had to go to school the next day.) One more thing about the humor and this gets a little dark. I was hoping the one Porg killed the other Porg with the Lightsaber or least hurt it. 

The next thing the time between ep 7 & ep 8 was it just a few days, weeks or months (it should be months) part of it made me thinks days. If it was days it does come off like Rogue One to me. 

Carrie Fisher, what? To me the movie wanted to be a love letter to her. And yes it is a sad thing she died. And this is what makes me think this. Right before the movie stared a trivia face popped up on the screen. Basically it said not one of Fishers scenes were cut from the movie. Is this good or bad I don't know yet. Maybe after a few more viewings I will have a better idea on this point. And as others have pointed out where does this leave here character? Should she been turned into a "Force Ghost" with Luke? I wouldn't think it will be that hard to show her turning into a ghost. Show her "Gray Cloak" she was wearing gentle falling. 

This might not technical be part of this movie, more part of the trilogy. Now do you remember how everyone saying The Force Awakens rips off A New Hope. Well I was thinking about "original draft" for Star Wars. And do you remember some of the original characters, like what Luke was originally supposed to be female. I was thinking what if the "original draft" was used as some sort of starting point for the newer trilogy. (I will admit my knowledge on this subject is limited. It was something I thought about and decided to just throw it out there.) 

[BrickG]

The humor wouldn't have been bad but there was just too much. I swear every scene between scenes was another gag. I laughed at first but then I just wanted to get to the freakin' story. The ironing board scene is when I was just DONE with the constant jokes and gags. Plus half of them just failed. 

The OT had humor but it was more subtle, less spammed, less SLAPSTICK. 

 

HUX was made nothing but a joke. I want them to show him SOME respect. He commands most of the First Order. Instead he gets whipped around by both Snoke and Kylo Ren like he's nothing. Just slapped around. His smarter subordinates like that older guy who saw his death coming because of Hux's inability to use proper strategy just sighed as they died as if to suggest they knew this was coming because Hux is an idiot.

Hux is supposed to be a scarey, military guy. Yeah in the original trilogy Vader had a habit of killing the people who failed him. But they kept up the military and threatening facade and maintained some level of respectability by not grovelling so much and being a little baby-man. Like that one guy who went and took full responsibility and Vader was like "apology accepted". Something about that made it more respectable than Hux just serving as a whipping boy. They died with a sort of honor despite having failed. 

 

Phasma had no real improvement. She died because Finn got lucky and simply lucked his way to survival. Finn has no real skills and has almost died like half a dozen times now and just survived because of stupid luck. Whether it be a well timed saving of him by Rose or Han, or falling onto an elevator, or having the ship he was on kind of half blow up just a second before he was going to be executed. Phasma should have probably been given more of a role or been left alone and never come back because her role here was equally as pointless as in The Force Awakens (as much as I hate to say it because the actress is great, her character is just wasted).

 

Rose was okay but her and Finn's little journey for the codebreaker was pointless. It failed. The life lesson the codebreaker gave with pointing out that the weapon dealers sell to both sides was an old and tried lesson that is boring, not very Star Wars and has been told in so many movies already. It didn't need such a huge chunk of the movie. The whole Canto scenes were useless and stupid and the orphans were dumb and the end was stupider (stupid force kid...).

Poe was an idiot. He rebelled against the rebels. His whole thing didn't help and his actions probably just got a lot more people killed. The life lesson he was learning was to be less of a hothead and not get people killed quite so much! His point in this movie was to show he's a failure basically. But honestly there's no good reason Holdo didn't share her plans and if she did then ALL of Poe's and Finn's and Rose's scenes wouldn't have happened. The whole story for Finn, Rose, and Poe were TOTALLY USELESS and brought on by their incompetence. I think the movie would have been so much better if they focused on... anything else here. It's like they struggled to find a good story for these three characters.

 

Holdo... why don't the Rebels just send small(ish) unmanned ships to light speed ram their enemies? Imagine if they did that from the beginning. Imagine all the lives they would have saved. I'm not all for suicide missions but EVEN if it's a suicide mission freakin' DO IT and RAM YOUR SHIP to save everyone else! (P.S. maybe if they could have edited it so that Leia suicided it would make dealing with Episode 9 easier, even if they just CGI her into the scene because I don't know why Leia allowed the younger Holdo to do it).

I mean seriously. Build ships to ram the enemy. There's no logical reason they wouldn't do this. Just take an old junker. Ram all the enemy fleets. You can probably decimate the entire first order with 1% of the ships and resources the First Order spends.

HECK, why doesn't the First Order do this? They're probably not as against suicide missions as the resistance. Send a single small lightspeed vessel. Aim. RAM the fudge out of those running Resistance ships. WHY NOT!!??

 

 

 

I keep trying to like it. But I keep liking it less and less each time...

I should stop giving them my money :P

 

 

[Forresto]

12 hours ago, Schneeds said:

With the prequels, the plots could have been saved by better casting, acting, and dialog. 

The Last Jedi on the other hand, could not be.  The plot holes are simply too numerous and ridiculous:

1. Per TFA and Luke himself, the entire reason Luke went to Ahch-To was to find the Jedi temple.  Then Rian Johnson says just kidding, Luke went there to abandon his family and die.
2. In fact, Luke hated his family so much, he contemplated killing his sleeping kid nephew.  Never mind that in the past he refused to fight the badass father he never even knew, killing kids is fine now.
3. The Resistance escapes from their own base, but doesn't have any fuel.  Since when is fuel even a thing in Star Wars?
4. If that wasn't bad enough, the First Order is completely unable to surround and capture a single Resistance Command ship, but resigns itself to slowly chasing it.  Really?
5. Also this incompetent First Order fleet is able to track ships through lightspeed.  Somehow.  With no explanation.  It's "new tech."  Thanks Rose, I actually somehow hate you more than Jar Jar.
6. The flash back dream of Rey's and the Knights of Ren?  That didn't happen.  Remember, Luke's a child killer.   
7. Speaking of Rey, she is the absolute best at everything with literally zero training.  Force power.  Lightsabers.  Fighting in general.  Doesn't matter, she's better than Luke. 
8. Just kidding, Supreme Leader Snoke can dominate her, but then dies like a Master Jedi from Attack of the Clones.
9. If you're a fan favorite Mon Calamari, explosions on the bridge kill you.  If you're Leia, neither explosions nor the vaccum of space put a scratch on you.

There are others, and people in reviews all over have done a better job of this than me, but it's enough to demonstrate how ridiculous this movie is.  It feels like an agenda-driven attempt to marginalize and trivialize the original trilogy. 

Those aren't plotholes just grievances you have, theres a difference. A plot hole is a problem with continuity of storytelling,  a grievance or the like is a personal issue with choices made in how a story is told or what is in the story. One is objective while the other is prefferential. 

1. We never know why Luke went to Ach To, only varied speculaton by other characters. However it's heavily implied he went there because of his failings as a master and the shame of losing a whole generation of Jedi. That's set up pretty clearly in the Force Awakens.

2. What in the good heavens of bias are you on about? He never hated his family and in the Last Jedi they show his remorse at having lost Han and his disconnect from Leia. Ben Solo is in his late twenties in that flashback, not a kid. Ben was clearly unremorseful and as dark as Anakain was when he killed children so of course Luke had a momentary lapse of instinct that he also quickly surpressed. 

3. Of course fuel is a thing, it always has been. If cold fusion or unlimited energy was a thing do you think the Death Star would be such an impressive or substantial feat? Fuel has always been in the background of the films and in the lore and canon.

4. Finn mentions how incredibly fast Snoke's Star Destroyer is traveling implying the Resistance ships are capable of even greater speeds.

5. So? It's the future, what's so wrong about new tech?

6. It's a trilogy, just wait. Also Luke ain't even close to being a child killer as mentioned in point 2.

7. She got her butt handed to her by the praetorian guards. Its clear that if she had to fight anyone there by herself she would've been screwed.

8. That whole scene was pretty well thought out and set up. Snoke's arrogance and Kylo thinking of only his actions and not his intended target was a brilliant twist.

9. Leia's force potential has not only been demonstrated in both new canon and EU but also spoken of in the Return of the Jedi. I love Ackbar but a jedi he is not. Luke didn't go to Ach To until several years before the Force Awakens so theres a good twenty years he could've taught a certain amount of tricks to Leia.

 

 

[samurai-turtle]

I have seen a comparison of General Hux to Dr. Sheldon Cooper (from the Big Bang Theory) and after watching the movie I can see why someone would say that. 

[DarthHank]

Unlike many people here, I really liked TLJ. I mean, it's not as good as the originals, but I'd rate it as better than TFA, if only for its originality. I feel like many of the problems in this movie were ones created by TFA.

1. Hux had no character last movie, so I don't mind too much what they did with him here. I think they're making him the whipping boy here to create conflict for episode 9 - maybe he'll try to take out Kylo to become supreme leader himself.

2. I like having more humor than usual, although some was too much. The whole "Can he hear me" thing with Poe and Hux was dumb (and why did Poe need to kill time anyway?). The Kylo shirt thing was uncomfortable. The porgs were fine, and Luke's chucking of the lightsaber didn't bother me either; that's the kind of joyful subversion I can admire. I can also dismiss Luke's shoulder dusting as a way to bother Kylo.

3. The whole "we're running out of fuel but our ships are smaller so we can temporarily outrun them" thing was nonsensical. The FO could have jumped to hyperspace, for that matter.

4. Princess Leia getting sucked out into space and coming back looked dumb, but was cool, but then on closer examination is still a bit dumb. I liked Kylo's moment of hesitation. I object for scientific reasons to the surviving space thing, but really this has already happened countless times in Star Wars, so it's a moot point. The force use was cool, but for practical reasons they should have just had Leia die then - she's not super important in the rest of the film.

5. Speaking of Leia, what are they going to do for episode 9? I was convinced going in that she was going to die, but now that she's not things are going to be weird.

6. Not that important a point, but the number of resistance people makes no sense. They mention at one point they have 200 men, but each ship should carry that many - 1000 seems much more realistic.

7. Why didn't Holdo tell Poe her plan (especially when he revealed Finn and Rose's mission)? If she had, it would have succeeded, and the FO wouldn't have seen their pods go down to Crait.

8. I didn't mind Rose much, but she didn't really get developed that well, and that kiss made me really afraid they're going to start a love triangle with Rey.

9. One completely unforgivable thing is Luke even considering killing Ben. This is the guy that found good in Vader - he's not going to consider killing his nephew. That's unacceptable.

10. I don't mind Rey being nobody (although I still think she may turn out to be someone), but I hate that JJ built it up so much in the last movie. This is his fault - he tried to make the audience interested when nobody cared, so when the payoff is removed it's even lamer. Same goes for Snoke, a pale imitation of Palpatine. If they weren't going to make him unique, they should have brought Palpatine back (I think that would have been great).

11. Snoke's death was lame. You're telling me he didn't notice that lightsaber turn, or if he did, ignore it? Completely underwhelming.

12. The dark side cave on the island looked cool, but was kind of meaningless. I felt like on Dagobah the cave vision meant something, unlike here.

13. Rey continued to be overpowered. It's one thing if she had defeated the Praetorian guards using the Force, but instead she bested them in lightsaber combat, which should be what they excel at.

14. I don't like the force projection thing. Sure, it's cool that Luke walked through laser fire, but it seems a little outlandish. I did think Luke's real death, disappearing before the binary sunset was one of the most beautiful scenes Star Wars has ever given us, and was perfect.

15. Phasma - another character who's supposed to be badass yet we know nothing about. Lame.

16. Why did Leia let Holdo sacrifice herself? Maybe she should have gone.

17.  Did the Crait speeders kill anything? Seemed useless.

18. Maz's cameo made no sense (where was the camera?) and should have been removed.

19. The kid at the end was kind of cool and shows the whole Resistance support everywhere and next generation of Jedi, but at the same time probably wasn't necessary.

Until the throne room, I liked how everything seemed fresh, in comparison to TFA. Yes, the movie had many flaws, but they were unique - TFA played it too safe, and focused on enthralling viewers in Star Wars once more and using nostalgia. This was unique. It's biggest flaws, the plot holes of the resistance pursuit and Snoke's lameness, are insignificant next to the overall coolness. It's not as good as Rogue One, which has a good, but uneven first act and a near flawless second act, but it's its own film, which deserves praise. I'm concerned for episode 9; without the original cast members and Snoke things are going to be strange, and it all rests on JJ's shoulders once more.

[dr_spock]

I suppose they could CGI  Leia into Ep.9 if their contract with Carrie Fisher has a clause that allows them to use her likeness post-mortem in post-production. 

 

 

[Forresto]

I for one love the Last Jedi and don't understand the hate for it. Its in no way a bad film. 

That doesnt mean people can't legitimately dislike the film, or objectively critique it and this statement isnt aimed at anyone here. However I believe films should be viewed more then once and digested, thought over, and supposed problems considered. Often i've noticed people will miss story points the first or second times around and fault the movie exponentially when they're the ones who missed it. I've done it, we've all done it.

All I can say is most every so called plot hole i've read is set up or covered in the film, and from what I can tell the screenplay is fairly solid.

The immediate slew of backlash represents a reaction, not discourse motivated by critical thinking. I think very much in the way everyone loved the Force Awakens initially and then as everyone started to think about it they found they disliked it, I think the reverse will be true for the Last Jedi. That doesnt mean I don't have problems with the film or find certain elements were'nt developed enough. 

My Main Problems or things I think were missed opportunities:

1. The world building in the Last Jedi is awful and its trash. I know what's happening and I wrote a short essay on the state of the galaxy from numerous canon sources, but what's going in the galaxy? Two minutes of exposition is all we needed and a more specific opening crawl.

2. We don't get any classic OT alien species then Mon Calamari and Sullustan. 

3. If they were going to kill Snoke off I wish we had gotten a little bit more exposition about him. 

4. I wish Admiral Ackbar did the suicide ram rather then Holdo. She was a cool character who should've survived to episode 9 and Ackbar could've done with a better send off. I love the massive casualty list of the film but I wish some survived so we have something to grasp onto.

5. Would've been cooler for BB8 to have a big duel with the evil BB8 alongside Captain Phasma and Finn's duel rather then the silly AT-ST rampage, although that was quite enjoyable.

6. I wish Canto Bight had been developed more, I liked what we got but it could've been made more three dimensional. 

7. Lack of Snap Wexly. Where is snappers? 

8. Knights of Ren are likely the Praetorian Guard but are they? Would've liked to have known more.

9. Didn't love the ending, only for the stupid looking alien they used for the slaver, the kids were fine.

 

3 hours ago, DarthHank said:

9. One completely unforgivable thing is Luke even considering killing Ben. This is the guy that found good in Vader - he's not going to consider killing his nephew. That's unacceptable.

I think the idea is that Ben was so immersed in the Dark Side, to the point Anakain was towards the end of the Revenge of the Sith, that Luke knew if he didnt act the Jedi may go extinct again. As he said it was a momentary flash that he immediately suppressed. 

Edited December 19, 2017 by Forresto

[BrickG]

5 hours ago, Forresto said:

 

I think the idea is that Ben was so immersed in the Dark Side, to the point Anakain was towards the end of the Revenge of the Sith, that Luke knew if he didnt act the Jedi may go extinct again. As he said it was a momentary flash that he immediately suppressed. 

It wasn't a flash. He basically pointed a gun at him.

"My nephew is so potentially evil in the future I'm going to point a gun at him and then change my mind"

Replace the saber with the gun and you've got someone who needs to go to jail. It wasn't JUST a thought or Flash. He freakin' pulled his saber out and ignited it in order to KILL HIM even if he changed his mind.

[Schneeds]

23 hours ago, Forresto said:

Those aren't plotholes just grievances you have, theres a difference. A plot hole is a problem with continuity of storytelling,  a grievance or the like is a personal issue with choices made in how a story is told or what is in the story. One is objective while the other is prefferential. 

1. We never know why Luke went to Ach To, only varied speculaton by other characters. However it's heavily implied he went there because of his failings as a master and the shame of losing a whole generation of Jedi. That's set up pretty clearly in the Force Awakens.

2. What in the good heavens of bias are you on about? He never hated his family and in the Last Jedi they show his remorse at having lost Han and his disconnect from Leia. Ben Solo is in his late twenties in that flashback, not a kid. Ben was clearly unremorseful and as dark as Anakain was when he killed children so of course Luke had a momentary lapse of instinct that he also quickly surpressed. 

3. Of course fuel is a thing, it always has been. If cold fusion or unlimited energy was a thing do you think the Death Star would be such an impressive or substantial feat? Fuel has always been in the background of the films and in the lore and canon.

4. Finn mentions how incredibly fast Snoke's Star Destroyer is traveling implying the Resistance ships are capable of even greater speeds.

5. So? It's the future, what's so wrong about new tech?

6. It's a trilogy, just wait. Also Luke ain't even close to being a child killer as mentioned in point 2.

7. She got her butt handed to her by the praetorian guards. Its clear that if she had to fight anyone there by herself she would've been screwed.

8. That whole scene was pretty well thought out and set up. Snoke's arrogance and Kylo thinking of only his actions and not his intended target was a brilliant twist.

9. Leia's force potential has not only been demonstrated in both new canon and EU but also spoken of in the Return of the Jedi. I love Ackbar but a jedi he is not. Luke didn't go to Ach To until several years before the Force Awakens so theres a good twenty years he could've taught a certain amount of tricks to Leia.

 

 

1.  It's not speculation, Luke literally says why he went there.  Also, the Jedi temple just happens to be there?

2.  What?  'Ben was clearly as unremorseful as Anakin after killing children'?  lol what are you talking about?  There was literally NOTHING to suggest that.  No evidence at all was even given that he was turning dark.  He's literally just lying in bed a sleep.

3.  We've had 7 prior Star Wars movies and fuel has never been mentioned before.  It's not a thing to base a plot around.

4. How is being incredibly fast the same as tracking a ship through hyperspace with no tracker?  They just made that up on the fly to make their terrible plot work.

5. How is that a rebuttal to the fact that the First Order can't surround a single Calamari cruiser?  It's ludicrous. 

6. Luke admits he saw Ben as a frightened kid, and he went so far as to stand over him with a ignited lightsaber while he was sleeping.  That isn't remotely inline with the Luke from the OT. 

7.  Not sure what movie you watched, she saved Kylo Ren.  Also, she's had zero training and and took on multiple praetorian guards.  That's absurd.

8.  He can read Kylo Ren's mind but dies like an idiot with a lightsaber sitting next to him?  No, that's not well thought out.

9.  Doesn't account for surviving an explosion without a trace.  If she's that powerful what's she doing hiding in a base/ship all the time.

Yes, these are plot holes.  There's about 50,000 reviews on RT that reflect this sentiment.  Even Mark Hamill doesn't think the treatment of the character was appropriate. 

Edited December 19, 2017 by Schneeds

[Forresto]

1 hour ago, Schneeds said:

1.  It's not speculation, Luke literally says why he went there.  Also, the Jedi temple just happens to be there?

2.  What?  'Ben was clearly as unremorseful as Anakin after killing children'?  lol what are you talking about?  There was literally NOTHING to suggest that.  No evidence at all was even given that he was turning dark.  He's literally just lying in bed a sleep.

3.  We've had 7 prior Star Wars movies and fuel has never been mentioned before.  It's not a thing to base a plot around.

4. How is being incredibly fast the same as tracking a ship through hyperspace with no tracker?  They just made that up on the fly to make their terrible plot work.

5. How is that a rebuttal to the fact that the First Order can't surround a single Calamari cruiser?  It's ludicrous. 

6. Luke admits he saw Ben as a frightened kid, and he went so far as to stand over him with a ignited lightsaber while he was sleeping.  That isn't remotely inline with the Luke from the OT. 

7.  Not sure what movie you watched, she saved Kylo Ren.  Also, she's had zero training and and took on multiple praetorian guards.  That's absurd.

8.  He can read Kylo Ren's mind but dies like an idiot with a lightsaber sitting next to him?  No, that's not well thought out.

9.  Doesn't account for surviving an explosion without a trace.  If she's that powerful what's she doing hiding in a base/ship all the time.

Yes, these are plot holes.  There's about 50,000 reviews on RT that reflect this sentiment.  Even Mark Hamill doesn't think the treatment of the character was appropriate. 

1. I'm going to see the movie again today, we'll see. 

2. They say so repeatedly throughout both the Last Jedi and the Force Awakens and Kylo constantly displays it. Kylo massacres an entire village of men and women and children without hesitation. How do you catch something as offhand as Ach To but entirely miss this?

3. What do you want? What do you actually want? A new plot line? Because if you want new plots and not rehashes and you aren't writing then how you can be upset a writer created a new storyline with a new plot device? Thats how this works.

4. Its new tech like I said you either buy it or you don't. It also makes sense some one would develop it when thats the entire Rebel Alliance's strategy plus its on the largest ship so we can infer its not common tech. 

5. The entire First Order strategy was to force the Rebels to hyperspace jump once more so they were out of fuel and the FO fleet could jump in and pick them off. The Resistance instead flees after they figure out the FO's plan. The FO chases them down knowing they have the Resistance trapped one way or another so didnt need to send a Star Destroyer in front of them. As always, arrogance, caused the FO to lose. 

Plus we don't know if anyone can hyperspace within star systems, only between so who knows.  

6. You're over simplifying Luke and Kylo, I'm off to the theatre so i'll respond to this later tonight because it also applies to @BrickG 

7. She threw him a lightsaber, hardly saving him when he did most of the work.

8. The entire point of arrogance in the Star Wars universe, is its tunnel vision. 

9. The vacuum would've sucked the flames out so as long as she wasnt at the front of the bridge, don't remember, then she would've survived no problem. That's going to take till the Blu Ray to clarify. 

50,000 people who are wrong don't make you right. I already explained to you what the difference is between a grievance and a plot.  

As for Mark Hamill has had his words twisted and chopped up ever since opening night.

https://www.cinemablend.com/news/1671010/what-mark-hamill-really-meant-when-he-criticized-luke-skywalkers-direction

 

[Sneakguest]

Over all, a good movie. I really tried to have no expectations at all, considering how much I disliked TFA, but I really enjoyed RO and at least I hoped that with the TLJ, they were trying to do something new rather than repeat the older movies, which I think they really succeeded with. Seeing the main plot of the movie basically taking place in spaceships manifested as a chase with the main ingredient being sufficient fuel. 

Im satisfied in general how the scenario in general elapsed, a good balance between force training and meditation as well as background stories and fights. And i think average portions of humor (even slapstick) has always been part of the SW saga. However a few things was less satisfying:

Luke Skywalker, I also felt disappointed, not the way he died, but the timing. Next movie and not in direct connection to illusional battle with Kylo Ren would have been more  satisfying. Also the plothole of hiding in one of the most sacred places for jedis. How come anyone needed a map to find him there. 

Snoke. I like the way that he died, of course maybe he could have noticed the light saber turning, but in the sometime, over confidence has brought down great leaders before, so why not. But I would have liked 5-10 minutes explain his background story or at least how he recruited Kylo Ren. His evil genius just became a too empty shell.

Death and blood. Also started to think about (in relation to Maul and his return) who somebody split in have below the waist by a light sabre actually die? I mean all import organs are in the head and torso. So the only reason you would die would be of blood loss. But wouldn't a light sabre cut would burn your whole body and thus prevent blood flowing out? The same goes I recall now in the TFA when Finn gets bloody from a stormtrooper shot by laser from Poe Dameron.

Poe Dameron. Can't this guy just die or something. Really can't stand him. Trying to be more or less exactly the cocky pilot as Han Solo was, but he is not and will not be Han Solo. The sooner he goes the better, thank you!

Aliens. This time, there was even less aliens with screening time, even compared to TFA and RO. Can't they do what they have done with the SW rebels, where   2 out of the 6 main casts are aliens. It's not logical to have thousands (or more) of different species in the universe but still, all heroes, crooks and commanders are aliens.

Rey and Kylo: I also think it was a missed opportunity not to do something more here. And it could have gone both ways. As well as Rey being seduced to the dark side for a possible redemption in the next movie, as well as having Kylo pretend that he had change side to deliver a more destructive blow to the restiance in a later stage.

 

For the next movie I really hope they introduce some aliens main characters, the introduction of the other nights of ren, no more death star or starkiller base, both a focus on evil, the sith and it's teaching as the possible destruction of the universe as we know it. 

 

 

 

[Schneeds]

10 hours ago, Forresto said:

1. I'm going to see the movie again today, we'll see. 

2. They say so repeatedly throughout both the Last Jedi and the Force Awakens and Kylo constantly displays it. Kylo massacres an entire village of men and women and children without hesitation. How do you catch something as offhand as Ach To but entirely miss this?

3. What do you want? What do you actually want? A new plot line? Because if you want new plots and not rehashes and you aren't writing then how you can be upset a writer created a new storyline with a new plot device? Thats how this works.

4. Its new tech like I said you either buy it or you don't. It also makes sense some one would develop it when thats the entire Rebel Alliance's strategy plus its on the largest ship so we can infer its not common tech. 

5. The entire First Order strategy was to force the Rebels to hyperspace jump once more so they were out of fuel and the FO fleet could jump in and pick them off. The Resistance instead flees after they figure out the FO's plan. The FO chases them down knowing they have the Resistance trapped one way or another so didnt need to send a Star Destroyer in front of them. As always, arrogance, caused the FO to lose. 

Plus we don't know if anyone can hyperspace within star systems, only between so who knows.  

6. You're over simplifying Luke and Kylo, I'm off to the theatre so i'll respond to this later tonight because it also applies to @BrickG 

7. She threw him a lightsaber, hardly saving him when he did most of the work.

8. The entire point of arrogance in the Star Wars universe, is its tunnel vision. 

9. The vacuum would've sucked the flames out so as long as she wasnt at the front of the bridge, don't remember, then she would've survived no problem. That's going to take till the Blu Ray to clarify. 

50,000 people who are wrong don't make you right. I already explained to you what the difference is between a grievance and a plot.  

As for Mark Hamill has had his words twisted and chopped up ever since opening night.

https://www.cinemablend.com/news/1671010/what-mark-hamill-really-meant-when-he-criticized-luke-skywalkers-direction

 

2. He massacres a village in Episode 7... hardly relevant.  We have no idea what he did prior to Luke leaving, as they had Luke lie about it (because after being angry and hurt with Obi Wan for something similar, that makes a ton of sense).

3. As for the plot, what most people want is an intriguing plot that actually makes sense.  Slowly running out of fuel is not that. 

7. He did not do most of the work.  Also you're completely ignoring the fact that she dominates him in TFA with ZERO training, and beats Luke in a fight with staves.  Her having experience with a staff is irrelevant; he's a Jedi Master and a Skywalker.  She can fly the MF better than Han Solo, yet has never flown anything before, and can lift hundreds of tons of rocks.  How long did Luke train with Yoda and couldn't budge an x-wing?  She's the ultimate Mary Sue; any objective person can acknowledge this. 

And Marks's words were pretty clear in the original interview.  He tried to walk it back some since for the good of the Director, which is noble of him, but it's obvious what he thought of it.  And he was right.

If you like this movie that's great, but you're apologizing for things that clearly run contrary to every prior movie and the Star Wars universe in general.  There's no point in arguing this.  People seem to either like or hate this movie.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Schneeds

[RetroInferno]

If you either thought the movie was good or bad, I just don't see why we should get hyped for the next movie?

TFA left us with many questions; TLJ simply feels like a trilogy conclusion; 

I REALLY don't envy the next director having to work with everything TLJ deleted; it's gonna be really messy to work it. 

I can say I enjoyed this as a movie, but I'm still shell shocked a bit. 

[Japanbuilder]

25 minutes ago, Schneeds said:

2. He massacres a village in Episode 7... hardly relevant.  We have no idea what he did prior to Luke leaving, as they had Luke lie about it (because after being angry and hurt with Obi Wan for something similar, that makes a ton of sense).

3. As for the plot, what most people want is an intriguing plot that actually makes sense.  Slowly running out of fuel is not that. 

7. He did not do most of the work.  Also you're completely ignoring the fact that she hands him his megablocks in TFA with ZERO training, and beats Luke in a fight with staves.  Her having experience with a staff is irrelevant; he's a Jedi Master and a Skywalker.  She's the ultimate Mary Sue; any objective person can acknowledge this. 

And Marks's words were pretty clear in the original interview.  He tried to walk it back some since for the good of the Director, which is noble of him, but it's obvious what he thought of it.  And he was right.

If you like this movie that's great, but you're apologizing for things that clearly run contrary to every prior movie and the Star Wars universe in general.  There's no point in arguing this.  People seem to either like or hate this movie.

7. I can see that but in general she is no more a Mary Sue than Luke in my opinion. While you do have a valid criticism based on what you have seen I would like to add that by the time Kylo faces Rey in TFA, he has taken a shot from a bowcaster to the gut (which if you need to see what that does to people rewatch every scene where a bowcaster is shown literally blowing people into the air) and also received a wound to the arm (with no armor to deflect it) from Finn. Anyone in relatively better shape and able to hold their own in a fight would have beat Kylo Ren. (except Finn, cause SW plot armor is very strong in all these movies)

I realize there a lot of fan theories about this but let's get real, TFA has given us more than ample evidence within its run time to let you know that a shot by a bowcaster causes serious damage. 

On Luke, it is also a fact that he had cut himself off from the force and he is not a spring chicken anymore. Without it foreseeing her moves with any weapon would not have been as easy as one would imagine. I think anyone in better shape not as old and in tune with the force would have wiped the floor with Luke at that point. 

But your overall conclusion about this movie dividing the fans like mad is correct. 

Edited December 20, 2017 by Japanbuilder

[Schneeds]

If you look at Luke in ANH, he could barely shoot a blaster well, much less wield a lightsaber.  Even after training with Yoda for what is portrayed to be quite a bit of time, he easily gets dominated by Darth Vader. 

He's certainly older in TLJ, but he's not ancient.  He's not even as old as Obi Wan was when he faced Vader for the last time. 

[Vindicare]

I audibly gasped when Kylo killed Snoke, despite seeing the saber turn towards him. Damn. Then the ensuing team up fight was awesome. I thoroughly enjoyed this & put my original theory of Rey being Luke’s daughter to doubt(I did think she could be Han’s daughter on the back burner). Now, I think she is Ben’s sister(didn’t he have one in the books?). 

The scenes on Ach-To were a fun watch, I really liked the dive into the Force. Even though I saw Rey’s hand lift the pebbles about 45,000 times, it still got me. The connection between Ben & Rey coulda be further evidence of them being siblings...or it could just be the writers/director/whoever Jedi Mind Tricking us. I do t buy for a second her parents we’re junk dealers... he’s just using that to persuade her. 

The Phasma fight was a bit too anticlimactic. It should’ve gone on longer or been more fierce in the time it lasted. For being the “against the norm” of a Stormtrooper, she was very much underused. 

Overall, another great addition to the saga. I was grinning throughout & on the edge of my seat at times. 

Oh! And Snoke’s Star Destroyer was dope!