Gearboxes With New Orange Selector & 20z Clutch Gear

[BusterHaus]

The new parts in 42083 have opened the doors to some new gearbox designs.  I saw that @Didumos69 and @Erik Leppen have started working out some potential designs, I think it would be good to have these new gearboxes collected in a single topic.

@Jim or @Milan If you think this should be merged with a different topic, please do so.

* * *

Here is a  design that makes it easy to visualize the gear ratios. It's far from compact, but the ratios are well spread out with only one overdrive gear.

Yellow - control
Green - input
Red - output

 

[Didumos69]

Great idea, I was waiting for this! Here we go...

I tried making a compact sequential 4-speed gearbox layout and so far this is the most simple solution I could come up with. It's still not that easy, because to take full advantage of the new orange selector, the driving rings cannot be placed on opposite sides of a single gear selector.

To take full advantage of the new 20t clutch gears, the gear ratio between the two driving rings needs to be closer to 1:1 than the 20:12 ratio made by the new clutch gears. In this case I used 16:20. Ratios are (in foreground to background order): 4:5, 1:1, 4:3, 5:3.

• Green is input
• Yellow is control
• Red is output

Edited May 30, 2018 by Didumos69

[BusterHaus]

9 minutes ago, Didumos69 said:

To take full advantage of the new 20t clutch gears, the gear ratio between the two driving rings needs to be closer to 1:1 than the 20:12 ratio made by the new clutch gears. In this case I used 16:20. Ratios are: 4:5, 1:1, 4:3, 5:3

It's a very compact design, nice work.  I tried to modify it to eliminate one of the overdrive gears, but didn't have much success.  The input of gears 1/3 and 2/4 is linked, and the clutch gears don't differ that much in size, so you can't have wide variations of ratios without complicating the gearbox quite a bit. 

[Didumos69]

23 minutes ago, BusterHaus said:

It's a very compact design, nice work.  I tried to modify it to eliminate one of the overdrive gears, but didn't have much success.  The input of gears 1/3 and 2/4 is linked, and the clutch gears don't differ that much in size, so you can't have wide variations of ratios without complicating the gearbox quite a bit. 

Correct, but makes it easy to combine it with a 2-speed gearbox in an 8-speed gearbox. But it was mainly a thought expirement to use both new gearbox parts. Btw, I added an image explaining the sequence.

Edited May 30, 2018 by Didumos69

[BusterHaus]

4-way power distribution.  Input gear can be  changed to a 8/24 combination.

[1gor]

All of this are very nice efforts, but I have one question to @Didumos69: didn't you start topic dedicated to gearboxes last year? 

I was mentioning this topic

 

Edited May 30, 2018 by I_Igor

[ibessonov]

I believe that this particular topic is more about conceptual possibility of new gearboxes with new parts. I mean, no one really tested them cause we have no parts yet.

I can share some unfinished LDD prototypes if anyone interested  It would fit in current discussion I think.

[1gor]

You could be right, that is why I have made question, to find out what members mean 

[BusterHaus]

1 hour ago, ibessonov said:

I believe that this particular topic is more about conceptual possibility of new gearboxes with new parts. I mean, no one really tested them cause we have no parts yet.

I can share some unfinished LDD prototypes if anyone interested  It would fit in current discussion I think.

By all means, share your prototypes! This combination of parts ended a small "dark age" for me - I haven't been this excited about new parts in a really long time.  I can't wait to how other builders will use them. 

@I_Igor The first post asks the moderators to figure out if this topic should be merged with a different one. I'll leave that decision to them. 

Edited May 30, 2018 by BusterHaus

[Erik Leppen]

I hadn't realized you could fit 12t gears meshing with the blue 20t's that way, @BusterHaus! I thought it wouldn't fit, but as the driving ring is less than 2L, it should indeed just fit.

[ibessonov]

32 minutes ago, BusterHaus said:

By all means, share your prototypes!

Ok, but "prototype" is a key word. This one is 7+R gearbox and it only uses one of new blue gears. Gear shifting mechanism is not ready, but I've been playing with some ideas to make this gearbox only 2 "layers" in hight. LDD file: https://bricksafe.com/files/ibessonov/misc/gearbox-prototype-1.lxf

Top view:

Bottom view:

 

Describing all gears meshing would be hard but main idea is that new gear allows you to save a lot of space if you use it right!

EDIT: ouch, I believe I messed up gear ratios in one place, give me 10 minutes to fix it  No, it's all good!

Edited May 30, 2018 by ibessonov

[ibessonov]

This one is pretty obvious. It's a 4 speed gearbox for 4WD vehicles with central differential.

Input is on any of 2 driving rings (they are coupled anyway), output is on the differential.

[Didumos69]

19 minutes ago, ibessonov said:

This one is pretty obvious. It's a 4 speed gearbox for 4WD vehicles with central differential.

Input is on any of 2 driving rings (they are coupled anyway), output is on the differential.

A nice flat layout with and a wide range of ratios (1:3, 5:9, 1:1, 5:3). Personally I don't like the use of clutch gears as non-idler gears (connecting the input axles), because of its sensitivity to friction, but it's not uncommon.

[ibessonov]

It's easy to fix anyway:

 

[Didumos69]

1 hour ago, ibessonov said:

It's easy to fix anyway:

Or move the input axles up a layer:

Btw, this layout is quite similar to what I did in my rugged supercar:

Edited May 31, 2018 by Didumos69

[ibessonov]

22 minutes ago, Didumos69 said:

Or move the input axles up a layer

Too bad that new orange selector won't fit between driving rings, it will clash with differential

[Didumos69]

1 minute ago, ibessonov said:

Too bad that new orange selector won't fit between driving rings, it will clash with differential

Yes, that's too bad. But even if there was no center diff, this layout wouldn't work with an orange selector inbetween. It would either engage two driving rings or none.

[Lucullus]

Simple 5+R setup with only two axles, but still not very compact.

[BusterHaus]

The gear ratios in the compact 4 speed box by @Didumos69 were not letting me rest.  This solution omits the 20z clutch gear and has the following gear ratios:

Gear 1 - 0.33
Gear 2 - 0.6
Gear 3 - 1.0
Gear 4 - 1.8

The ratio for Gear 4 is too high, but this is a compromise that was made to have only one overdrive gear.  I think this would work well in a manual model, but I'm not a fan of the double 8z gears on the output shaft, especially in the last gear.  The difference in the engine speed would be quite apparent.

The more I play (virtually) with these new parts, the more I get the impression that they are meant for more complex gearboxes, not 4 speed ones.

[Didumos69]

4 hours ago, BusterHaus said:

The more I play (virtually) with these new parts, the more I get the impression that they are meant for more complex gearboxes, not 4 speed ones.

Interesting setup with these 24t clutch diffs. I also have the feeling that the new orange selector does not really make life easier in simple setups. It doesn't really fit symmetrical setups either, because it can not be used between two driving rings.  I think it requires a completely different approach.

Edited May 31, 2018 by Didumos69

[andythenorth]

15 hours ago, BusterHaus said:

The more I play (virtually) with these new parts, the more I get the impression that they are meant for more complex gearboxes, not 4 speed ones.

TLG's primary purpose for 'gearboxes' is spamming them into models to split a PF motor output   (So not really a gearbox, just a splitter) 

I guess they'd want to showcase this new part in splitters.  I haven't figured out how that would work in detail though 

[SNIPE]

I bet it will fit inbetween two clutch rings if one is moved up by say half a stud so that the groove on the orange selector fits in both clutch rings. I'll try to figure something out when I get the parts.

[1gor]

On 5/30/2018 at 11:02 PM, ibessonov said:

Ok, but "prototype" is a key word. This one is 7+R gearbox and it only uses one of new blue gears. Gear shifting mechanism is not ready, but I've been playing with some ideas to make this gearbox only 2 "layers" in hight. LDD file: https://bricksafe.com/files/ibessonov/misc/gearbox-prototype-1.lxf

Top view:

 

Bottom view:

 

 

Describing all gears meshing would be hard but main idea is that new gear allows you to save a lot of space if you use it right!

EDIT: ouch, I believe I messed up gear ratios in one place, give me 10 minutes to fix it  No, it's all good!

I think this ransmission would be better to make it in Chiron to achieve modification and proper improvement to original set

[ibessonov]

3 minutes ago, I_Igor said:

I think this ransmission would be better to make it in Chiron to achieve modification and proper improvement to original set

Chiron designers were way too restricted in size. So if we replace current W16 with something smaller then 7+R is achievable. But not with my version, it needs a lot of tuning and optimization.

[1gor]

1 hour ago, ibessonov said:

Chiron designers were way too restricted in size. So if we replace current W16 with something smaller then 7+R is achievable. But not with my version, it needs a lot of tuning and optimization.

I understand your point...but as my pocket money is not enough for Chiron, I'll look at the development here