[GBC] Akiyuki Train System: Type 2 mods and improvements

[Berthil]

It's also possible to use the original Akiyuki carrier gearing with the lower switch I designed instead of original upper switch.
Works faster and lighter, worked very well without any failure for two days. 

[rskamen]

On 6/19/2019 at 3:41 PM, Berthil said:

It's also possible to use the original Akiyuki carrier gearing with the lower switch I designed instead of original upper switch.
Works faster and lighter, worked very well without any failure for two days. 

@BerthilThanks for the suggestion. I will look into that. Do you have any reference or photos of the switches your mention?

[Berthil]

@rskamen

[rskamen]

@Berthil Yes, I see it now. I will look into this. First I will add more weights to the counter-weigh cylinders and see if that helps. Thanks for posting these detailed photos. Once I get this working well, I will begin accumulating parts and building your Version 3 Ball Factory.

[rskamen]

I managed to commandeer my wife's crystal glass dining room table for a few days. Just getting started. A little more fine tuning and fresh batteries in the Red train, and I will be ready to run it with a full load of balls. I apologize for the totally inept video, but you all get the idea that it really works! Next video should be fully operational.  

.

[Berthil]

Looks good! Congratulations, table is just big enough :)

Judging by the speed of the lift I guess you did not do the modification with the 24t gear to speed it up?
Not that a higher is needed if you run it at home, only if you would participate in events it would not get to the 1 ball per second with current gearing.
 

[rskamen]

1 hour ago, Berthil said:

Looks good! Congratulations, table is just big enough :)

Judging by the speed of the lift I guess you did not do the modification with the 24t gear to speed it up?
Not that a higher is needed if you run it at home, only if you would participate in events it would not get to the 1 ball per second with current gearing.
 

I will have to experiment with gears, and possibly the L motor. The lift is perfectly fine, nothing binds, and operates freely when turning the gears by hand. On the Train units, the "lugs" that hold the hopper in place on to the battery box keep falling off from vibration. Against all rules, I just put a dab of glue on  each 1x2 brick to hold it securely. I am not planning to display this at any shows, so I am a little less concerned abut the 1 ball/second rule. Still, I would like the elevator to ascend a bit quicker. I just tried it with some balls and it is working :)

[doug72]

11 hours ago, rskamen said:

I will have to experiment with gears, and possibly the L motor. The lift is perfectly fine, nothing binds, and operates freely when turning the gears by hand. On the Train units, the "lugs" that hold the hopper in place on to the battery box keep falling off from vibration. Against all rules, I just put a dab of glue on  each 1x2 brick to hold it securely. I am not planning to display this at any shows, so I am a little less concerned abut the 1 ball/second rule. Still, I would like the elevator to ascend a bit quicker. I just tried it with some balls and it is working :)

Looking good, Elevator & dumper running quite smoothly. An L motor definitly helps speed up the elevator.
When you try with balls get ready to go hunting for escaped balls !!

I to had problems with the locating lugs falling off and and used a dab of glue. 

Edited June 27, 2019 by Doug72

[rskamen]

4 hours ago, Doug72 said:

Looking good, Elevator & dumper running quite smoothly. An L motor definitly helps speed up the elevator.
When you try with balls get ready to go hunting for escaped balls !!

I to had problems with the locating lugs falling off and and used a dab of glue. 

I do have one ball that always leaves the dumper almost after it returns to start. That ends upon the table top. I am still hunting for a "lug" that fell off and just can't find. Any further details, besides what you already posted on installing the L motor would be appreciated. I think I can do it based on your posts and pictures on previous pages. Thanks for the encouragement and all your past help.

[rskamen]

@Doug72 I managed to install the L motor without much problems. Believe it or not, I prefer how the train operates with the M motor. It seems less "aggressive" and the elevator, although slightly slower, runs smoother. I have one train with an M and one with an L motor. I will use both before deciding to upgrade the M or downgrade the L. Fresh AA batteries in my M unit seem to have it working consistently on the elevator. If I go back to an M, I will use a new M motor and fresh AA in that unit.

[doug72]

Update: Side swing Lift & Tilt Module (WIP)

Further progress and finally got the timing correct OK, see video. Some issues still to resolve as the lift is a bit jerky when swinging up.

Found unable to get enough swing range using a Z60 turntable so used a Z28 T/T and racks in a custom guide system based on the Akiyuki  Train Unloader but arranged vertically.

Racks:-

13L too short to give desired swing range and difficult to guide.

16L studded beam with 4 x 4L racks gave desired range but tended to bind the guides.

14L LEGO Gear Rack 14 x 2m with groove (18942) best and used without its housing. (If in the housing full range not possible)

 

Setting the timing took a very long time and I used my modified train reverser that allows for the gearing for the trip rotor to altered without dismantling the unit !!!
Also easy to adjust rotor trip point by sliding one gear out of engagement.
Eventually found 16/16 gears worked.

Several are combinations possible to speed up or slow down trip rotor, which has a single trip lobe.

8/24 - 24/8 - 12/20 - 20/12 - 16/16.

The train unit drives a 24:1 worm gearbox via 20/12 step up gears which in turn drives both swing arms via a chain of gears 8T / 24T / 40T to give a 5:1 ratio which rotates the two LEGO Technic Half Beam 3 with Knob and Pin (33299) that move the crank connecting arms to raise & lower the gear racks.

The 8/24/40 was used to align input and output axles on the 5 x 7 frames. Also tried using old style gears with 21/15 ratio on 7L centres but looked a bit out of place.

Both arms have stops to set the correct position so train with hopper can enter & depart smoothly.

Stops are arranged on each arm to make the ball hopper tilt.
In the ball dump position there is enough slope inside the hopper for all balls to roll out without needing internal slopes.

Next step is to build the ball collection chute and find out what is causing the jerkiness as the arms swing up.

The jerkiness is only present when using a train unit with M motor, runs much smoother when using a train unit witlh L motor, and has more power.

The two counterweight arms with tires are temporary to test the system and to be improved.

A short video to show how it functions.
A better video will be made once collection chute made & tested with balls !!

 

 

Edited July 1, 2019 by Doug72

[doug72]

Update: Side swing Lift & Tilt Module (almost completed)

Discharge chute installed and module tested, with L motor train unit and can easily carry 50 balls per trip.
Cycle time from train entry & train release = approx. 25 seconds so well capable of keeping up with the standard GBC ball rate of 1 ball per sec.

See video:- below.
1st run with white balls and 4 lego footballs - OK 2nd run with 50 orange balls lifted OK and dumped.easilly

Counterweights still to improve and my former swing loader will now be dismantled for spares ( Gear Quadrants etc.for other GBC use).

I have the instructions for the PV Sun wheel GBC module.

Images:-

Worm drive gear box.

Crank drive gears.

Gear rack / Z28 turntable and guide support 12T gear.

Reverser unit showing change gears for rotor speed adjustment.

Video:-

 

 

Edited July 2, 2019 by Doug72

[rskamen]

@Doug72 I just changed the gears on the elevator from the original 20/12 to 16/16 gears that run the worm gear. No improvement in the speed while ascending. Everything turns freely when operating by hand in either direction. Would reversing the order of the original gearing from 20/12 to 12/20 make any difference?  I might dismantle the elevator, try the original Akiyuki gear design along with @Berthil lower switch to hold the elevator in place. By the way, my Catch and Spin Robots have been working perfectly. My little grandson played with it for hours last night. Just had to keep him from ripping it apart:)

[doug72]

12 hours ago, rskamen said:

@Doug72 I just changed the gears on the elevator from the original 20/12 to 16/16 gears that run the worm gear. No improvement in the speed while ascending. Everything turns freely when operating by hand in either direction. Would reversing the order of the original gearing from 20/12 to 12/20 make any difference?  I might dismantle the elevator, try the original Akiyuki gear design along with @Berthil lower switch to hold the elevator in place. By the way, my Catch and Spin Robots have been working perfectly. My little grandson played with it for hours last night. Just had to keep him from ripping it apart:)

Changing to 12/20 gearing will slow the elevator down but will increase torque so may work, easy to try before deciding to rebuild.

The original Akiyuki design was very tempremental due to the complex latch system with sudden uncontrolled drops due the rubber bands stretching.  
Berthils catch wouldn't improve that, but his elevator design without worm gear using the bottom catch may be the best way forward, it still uses the simple train releases at top and bottom.

The latch is there to keep platform at lower level when the train departs, to stop the counterwieghts from lifting the platform when train is not on it.

Just timed your elevator speed as shown in your video.
approx 12 sec UP & 8 Secs down withw  trip cycle entering elevator and all balls dumped -24 secs so should meet GBC ball rate of 1 ball per sec throughput.

My elevator / dumper is lower than GBC standards so a bit faster cycle time.

Edited July 5, 2019 by Doug72

[rskamen]

8 hours ago, Doug72 said:

Changing to 12/20 gearing will slow the elevator down but will increase torque so may work, easy to try before deciding to rebuild.

The original Akiyuki design was very tempremental due to the complex latch system with sudden uncontrolled drops due the rubber bands stretching.  
Berthils catch wouldn't improve that, but his elevator design without worm gear using the bottom catch may be the best way forward, it still uses the simple train releases at top and bottom.

The latch is there to keep platform at lower level when the train departs, to stop the counterwieghts from lifting the platform when train is not on it.

Just timed your elevator speed as shown in your video.
approx 12 sec UP & 8 Secs down withw  trip cycle entering elevator and all balls dumped -24 secs so should meet GBC ball rate of 1 ball per sec throughput.

My elevator / dumper is lower than GBC standards so a bit faster cycle time.

@Doug72 Thanks for your response. I watched @Berthil videos and Akiyuki videos and their lifts are significantly faster than mine. I also find that after a few cycles, the train runs slower and slower on the elevator. I might swap out the AA batteries again for Duracell. I find those typically the best. I have been using Energizer and they just don't have the staying power. In the mean time I am going to look hard at the Akiyuki gearing on his pdf instructions vs my current worm gear (which I much prefer). I am also going to change back to the 20T/12T. What is your thoughts on 24T/8T (or reverse that combination). May take too much power to run it properly.

[doug72]

@rskamen I use rechargable batteries in all my train units now - single use batteries get too expensive.

I use 1300 & 2400mAh batteries and have a six battery charger for them that take AA & AAA batteries.

Suggest check your train wheels for pressed onto axle too hard and run a train around a circle of track to see how long batteries last for,

If I recall right I tried 24/8 step up gears when developing the worm drive version  but settled on the 20/12 gears.

 

See pages 11 to 14 for posts on the development of the elevator worn gear version.

Edited July 6, 2019 by Doug72

[Berthil]

I'm using the rechargeable 8878 which has 7,4 V output voltage instead of the 9V of the 6 normal batteries. Also with lower voltage everything runs very good as can be seen in the video's.
With Akiyuki gearing in the lift the train runs 30 min. longer to a total of 3,5 hours on one charge. So far I've had two broken M motors in the trains, I guess they don't like the reversing a lot.

[rskamen]

9 hours ago, Berthil said:

I'm using the rechargeable 8878 which has 7,4 V output voltage instead of the 9V of the 6 normal batteries. Also with lower voltage everything runs very good as can be seen in the video's.
With Akiyuki gearing in the lift the train runs 30 min. longer to a total of 3,5 hours on one charge. So far I've had two broken M motors in the trains, I guess they don't like the reversing a lot.

Thanks for your input. I am resisting buying the 8878 battery. My M motors run well, but I have swapped one for a brand new one and it made no difference. The train runs very smoothly and quickly around the track, through the passing module, and even the Conveyor runs smoothly and quickly. Just bought a 40 pack of AA Duracells at Costco. I'll let you know if it makes a difference. If not, I will rebuild the elevator with the Akiyuki gearing. Many of my neighbors and family members have seen the train setup and have marveled at it and how it works. I just don't want to put it on the shelf until I get that elevator ascending quicker. Descent is always quick and smooth. 

@Doug72 I have read and reread the pages with all the work that went into the worm gear set up. That, plus your advice convinced me to build it that way. I am not giving up on it yet!

[doug72]

42 minutes ago, rskamen said:

 

@Doug72 I have read and reread the pages with all the work that went into the worm gear set up. That, plus your advice convinced me to build it that way. I am not giving up on it yet!

That the GBC spirit eventually you will succeed.

Can you take & post a close up video of the elevator ascending, might be able to see what the problem is ?

[rskamen]

11 minutes ago, Doug72 said:

That the GBC spirit eventually you will succeed.

Can you take & post a close up video of the elevator ascending, might be able to see what the problem is ?

Thanks @Doug72, I will try to post a video. I just changed the batteries and it made no difference. I double checked everything you have outlined in the past week or two. The elevator worked better on it's few few test runs. Very frustrating, but I will keep at it. I will pull it out of my layout so I can work on it at my desk. Hard working over the dining room table.

[rskamen]

Just tried swapping the 20T/12T gears to a 12T/20T configuration. Took 28 seconds to ascend the elevator. Way too slow. Back to the 20/12. By hand, it works smoothly up or down. By train, going up is slow and at times seems to stall. Coming down is quick and smooth. More weights in the counter-balance? I had the L motor in one train, but I was to aggressive and jumpy. Went back and put in a fresh new M motor. I'll get it. Just like the Catch and Spin Robots. Took constant adjusting and reassembly, but now it works flawlessly and consistently.

[doug72]

Great news, persitence pays off.

I have had the internal planatary gear box inside M motors fail in the past if over loaded causing it to slow down.
Probably why Lego no longer produce them. Correction they are back in stock on the UK Lego shop website @ £4.99 each.

Re aggressive

Sariel guide states:-

L motor the no load speed  @ 9v = 272 rpm / @ 7 v = 203 rpm.
M motor no load speed 275 rpm @ 9 v. / @ 7v = 185 rpm

So at 9 volt (6 x AA batteries) RPM is almost the same but L motor has more power.

M motor Torque 3.63 N.cm / L motor 6.48 cm,  so L motor has approx  1.8 times more powerful than an M motor.

 

 

Edited July 7, 2019 by Doug72

[rskamen]

4 hours ago, Doug72 said:

Great news, persitence pays off.

I have had the internal planatary gear box inside M motors fail in the past if over loaded causing it to slow down.
Probably why Lego no longer produce them. Correction they are back in stock on the UK Lego shop website @ £4.99 each.

Re aggressive

Sariel guide states:-

L motor the no load speed  @ 9v = 272 rpm / @ 7 v = 203 rpm.
M motor no load speed 275 rpm @ 9 v. / @ 7v = 185 rpm

So at 9 volt (6 x AA batteries) RPM is almost the same but L motor has more power.

M motor Torque 3.63 N.cm / L motor 6.48 cm,  so L motor has approx  1.8 times more powerful than an M motor.

 

 

@Doug72 Why did I know that you would come up with some higher math :) That's why you are an Engineer. I only published the books that you read and studied.

I have gone over every connection, gear, axle and wheel on both the train units and the elevator. There is nothing binding and virtually no untoward friction. I even tried @MajklSpajkl counter-weight system instead of Berthils thinking that maybe there was less friction with fewer and more direct pulleys. Made no difference. I swapped M motors just in case one was malfunctioning. No difference.  I am down to a few possible changes at this point. I would love to get this sorted out so I can move on to @Berthil Version 3 of the Ball Factory. That rebuild is tugging at my wallet (Bricklink).

1. I will put an L motor back in one of my train units and test it again. Is it possible to regear the train unit for less speed and more torque?

2. Change the elevator gears to 16/16 which seemed to work the best under current set up- although not as fast as the 20/12 (but I won't make that change until I test the L motor one more time).

3. Rebuild with Akiyuki gearing and @Berthil switches and locks. (My last option as I don't think I have all of the necessary parts on hand).

Glad it is the hot, humid, and rainy season here in Florida. Gives me some indoor time that I usually don't spend in the cooler months (cooler being 24 degrees Celsius, Summer time daily averages is about 33 Celsius).

[doug72]

2 hours ago, rskamen said:

1. I will put an L motor back in one of my train units and test it again. Is it possible to regear the train unit for less speed and more torque?

2. Change the elevator gears to 16/16 which seemed to work the best under current set up- although not as fast as the 20/12 (but I won't make that change until I test the L motor one more time).

3. Rebuild with Akiyuki gearing and @Berthil switches and locks. (My last option as I don't think I have all of the necessary parts on hand).

Glad it is the hot, humid, and rainy season here in Florida. Gives me some indoor time that I usually don't spend in the cooler months (cooler being 24 degrees Celsius, Summer time daily averages is about 33 Celsius).

1. Not possible to change the gears for the L motor train, as there not enough space and has to use bevel gears.
   But you can changed the gears on the elevator to get required speed. Also using rechargable slows the L motor

2. 16 / 16 or 12/20 the best

3. If you are happy with the speed you are getting I would stick with it.

Re Weather, can you send some hot weather over to Britain, each day never the same, either too hot or too cold, the jet stream is stuck over northern Europe and swinging back & forth over northern Britain !

Edited July 7, 2019 by Doug72

[rskamen]

5 hours ago, Doug72 said:

1. Not possible to change the gears for the L motor train, as there not enough space and has to use bevel gears.
   But you can changed the gears on the elevator to get required speed. Also using rechargable slows the L motor

2. 16 / 16 or 12/20 the best

3. If you are happy with the speed you are getting I would stick with it.

Re Weather, can you send some hot weather over to Britain, each day never the same, either too hot or too cold, the jet stream is stuck over northern Europe and swinging back & forth over northern Britain !

Another hot, humid and thunder storming afternoon. I swapped motors and back to my trusty M motor. I rebuilt both train units to be as friction free as possible. I installed the 16/16 gears on the elevator and it is consistently going up to the top, slow and steady. Unless I have all the parts on hand, I don't think I will rebuild the lift with the Akiyuki gearing. I will go through my meager parts bins and see what I have. @Berthil, watch out, I am about to start buying and sorting my own parts for your Version 3 Ball Factory. I am going to reuse a lot of my RED bricks. Hate to just put them all aside 

.