Opinions on LEGO Technic Theme

[Bublehead]

@andythenorth, I think we are all guilty of over emphasizing something , some of us even pulled it off in their first topic post 

[Jim]

10 minutes ago, andythenorth said:

Not so much 'we' as there's always the ones with the axe to grind innit?  And if they're challenged, then they retort that everyone else are uncritical sheep, allowing TLG to walk off the cliff of quality.  The internet: clearly the future, right? 

At least when @allanp kept going on about pneumatics vs. LAs, he didn't throw his toys out of the pram when he was asked to shush. 

Amen brother 

12 minutes ago, Bublehead said:

 @Jim 

Do you think they (TLG) pick and choose what they do to so that it meets both the requirements, kids and AFOLS? So a bigger set but one that appeals to kids? More colors, but ones that test well with kids, etc...?

I do think that's the way they do it. At least, for Technic. They simply need to have some "cool" sets, which look great on the shelves and sell. The Rally Car is a good example. There have been complaints about it being too simple, but it is what it is....a cool car with vibrant colors which will definitely compete well with other toys on the shelves. And there need to be some sets which cater the older kids and AFOLs alike. These sets are more expensive and have more Technic functionality. And then there are the smallest sets. People also complain that they are not interesting?! It's like they are comparing them with 100+ euros sets. The smaller sets are gift sets, and sometimes great parts packs. Actually I find some of them quite ingenious to be honest.

[Erik Leppen]

36 minutes ago, Jim said:

We definitely influence TLG, but some of us don't see that.

[long post]

TL;DR It's easy to criticize, but it's better to give it more thought before doing so. 

Good post Jim.

I wanted to add that I'm not so sure that all of this is just criticizing because we can. I think part of this is also the technical mind of Technic lovers enjoying trying to tinker with and improve things. Whenever the first images of new sets occur, our technical mind goes to work and we start trying out improvements. Because a model isn't physical yet, we'll have to do with suggesting and discussing flaws, ideas, ...

There's this saying that if your only tool is a hammer, everything turns into a nail ;)

[Jim]

4 minutes ago, Erik Leppen said:

I wanted to add that I'm not so sure that all of this is just criticizing because we can. I think part of this is also the technical mind of Technic lovers enjoying trying to tinker with and improve things. Whenever the first images of new sets occur, our technical mind goes to work and we start trying out improvements. Because a model isn't physical yet, we'll have to do with suggesting and discussing flaws, ideas, ...

Part of the criticism is justified, since we do have some proper engineers on this board. If there's a community to be critical, it's definitely Eurobricks. So, big thumbs up for this 

4 minutes ago, Erik Leppen said:

There's this saying that if your only tool is a hammer, everything turns into a nail ;)

And the new sets are always the nails 

 

[TeamThrifty]

49 minutes ago, Jim said:

Technic sets are parts packs to build stuff with

Think that was me, or at least i said something similar - and i think this is a key point.

You see a set and either think... a) thats great, but wouldn't it better i changed that or added this! Can't wait to get it and start!!   b) i'd buy it but that bits not right, don't like that colour, what were they thinking. I want perfection for my dollar spend! 

The (b) voices are often loudest unfortunately. @Jim 's long post was excellent. TLG do an amazing job... and they are only human, and maybe sometimes the negative stuff isn't nice for them to read. Perhaps praising them more would good.

[Bublehead]

I am sometimes branded as a drinker of the TLG koolaid for my support of Technic, but if not me, who, and if not now when do we throw our unbridled support behind them? Once we have to start looking for another manufacturer because TLG went under?  Or cancelled the Technic theme? (Unlikely but still a possibility) 

I may be an unbridled supporter but that doesn’t mean I am not critical.  The direction of PU concerns me from a Technic point of view.  And no Technic Ideas set yet is a big mistake in my book.  The Technicolor Nightmare is concerning, but not a big issue, where as the lack of all panels in all colors to me is a shortcoming that definitely needs addressed.  Stickers are to be avoided, but why not partner with a major Label maker (Avery) and put out customizable blank sticker sheets with templates for all the major panel shapes?  Wouldn’t that appeal to both kids and AFOLs? 

[Jim]

Just now, TeamThrifty said:

TLG do an amazing job... and they are only human, and maybe sometimes the negative stuff isn't nice for them to read. Perhaps praising them more would good.

True. We don't need to agree with, or approve, or condone, everything TLG does, but I do think we can sometimes be a bit more considerate. 

Imagine you have worked hard on something and you show it to an audience, and the next 20 pages of comments are like "this sucks" and "that's horrible".
That's basically what Facebook is all about. I'm glad that we do better on Eurobricks and tend to provide arguments why we don't like stuff 

[allanp]

Hey, at least I got my longer pneumatics and now new valve and clutch gear in a new size, so sometimes ranting pays off  . But even I feel that lately there is too much negativity without positivity to keep it in balance. The guys at TLG don't want to read "this sucks, the designers suck" over and over again. It's fine to criticize, but now I try to also say what I like about a sets I dislike, and what I dislike about sets I like. I may dislike 42070 but the build was enjoyable. I like the Chiron but the steering could be made much better by......... So it's balance. It's voicing my full and unedited opinion whilst not just complaining all the time. So it's not the complaining, but the lack of positivity to balance it out that is kinda bothering me right now.

[Jim]

8 minutes ago, allanp said:

But even I feel that lately there is too much negativity without positivity to keep it in balance. The guys at TLG don't want to read "this sucks, the designers suck" over and over again. It's fine to criticize, but now I try to also say what I like about a sets I dislike, and what I dislike about sets I like. I may dislike 42070 but the build was enjoyable. I like the Chiron but the steering could be made much better by......... So it's balance. It's voicing my full and unedited opinion whilst not just complaining all the time. So it's not the complaining, but the lack of positivity to balance it out that is kinda bothering me right now.

Can we pin this somewhere?! 

I was about to post something similar, but I couldn't have phrased it better. This is exactly what should distinguish Eurobricks from other social media, like Facebook.

I even think we should turn this into some sort of guideline.

[Vectormatic]

48 minutes ago, Bublehead said:

I am sometimes branded as a drinker of the TLG koolaid for my support of Technic, but if not me, who, and if not now when do we throw our unbridled support behind them? Once we have to start looking for another manufacturer because TLG went under?  Or cancelled the Technic theme? (Unlikely but still a possibility) 

I may be an unbridled supporter but that doesn’t mean I am not critical.  The direction of PU concerns me from a Technic point of view.  And no Technic Ideas set yet is a big mistake in my book.  The Technicolor Nightmare is concerning, but not a big issue, where as the lack of all panels in all colors to me is a shortcoming that definitely needs addressed.  Stickers are to be avoided, but why not partner with a major Label maker (Avery) and put out customizable blank sticker sheets with templates for all the major panel shapes?  Wouldn’t that appeal to both kids and AFOLs?  

 

Supporting a commercial enterprise beyond what your own criticism would normally allow perverts the entire market. If lego can get away with sub-par efforts, but AFOLs still throw money at them "because its better then no technic", what is to stop them from raising prices and lowering standards even further? Star wars has (at least partially) saved lego, but it has also taught them they can get away with frankly ridiculous prices, but hey, lets pay €0.20/piece, because it is better then no SW lego right?

I cant quite put my finger on any specific text, but this entire discussion (not just this specific thread) feels like it is moving the goal posts on what is valid criticism further  and further, to the point where i feel like ill be told-off for criticizing sets like 42077. This is creating a higher and higher barrier for me to contribute here, because i feel like my point of view is more and more considered invalid, simply because it makes commercial sense for lego to put out large style over substance sets (whilst they themselves boldly proclaim "technic is about functionality" during the chiron presentation)

 

As for the point made by @allanp, i understand the guys at lego dont want to get criticized all the time, but what am i to do when i feel like the current lineup is a let-down? shut up and silently walk away? or should i just grit my teeth, click the like button and spend money of stuff i dont like? My point of view is that outside criticism is absolutely vital for a company to stay healthy, otherwise they will end up in an echochamber of yes-men, wondering why sales keep declining. And beyond company health, i feel like if a designer puts out a poorly designed set, he deserves to hear that, the same way i get a bad anual review when i megabluck up at work bigtime. Sometimes people need to be told to get their shit together to excel and move up to a new level, and for some people being in a position where your work is out there to be judged by milions just isnt the right place, i know it wouldnt be for me. I absolutely abhor the whole idea that people should be applauded publicly for trying, participation trophies are for 3rd grade socces tournaments, not grown up businesses.

 

This will probably be my last post on the subject, it somehow feels like it is me against the big guys here (including mods/admins), and it just doesnt feel good being here, it adds a lot of negative feelings to the hobby for me, so maybe bowing out and digging back into a pile of bricks is what i should be doing right now.

[Jim]

20 minutes ago, vectormatic said:

As for the point made by @allanp, i understand the guys at lego dont want to get criticized all the time, but what am i to do when i feel like the current lineup is a let-down? shut up and silently walk away?

I think you are sightly missing the point of our discussion. You don't need to shut up and walk away. You can perfectly criticise the choices made my TLG, as long as you state why you dislike them. There has been a lot of "These sets suck"-like comments. We definitely don't need to be yes-men, but we do need to criticise in a mature constructive way.

And sometimes it's better to refrain from commenting than constantly expressing negative feelings. When I see something I don't like on Facebook (or Eurobricks), I skip it most of the time, instead of stating why I don't like it.

If you feel that you are constantly disliking every set that comes out, than maybe sets are not your thing anymore. That can very well be the case. Enjoy the new parts and save yourself a lot of money  

20 minutes ago, vectormatic said:

Star wars has (at least partially) saved lego, but it has also taught them they can get away with frankly ridiculous prices, but hey, lets pay €0.20/piece, because it is better then no SW lego right?

I buy a lot of SW sets (mostly UCS) and none of them are 20 cents a piece. They are all around 10 cents a piece. 

[Lipko]

We are doing the same rounds again. Anyhoo, one can justify their general design choices and I can agree with that. It's the low quality of the functions and the build istelf that are hard to justify (I'm not saying that the quality is poor in general). If there's a function, it should work more or less reliably. A set (at least I naively thought so) is not only a parts pack but also a teaching material, especialy in Technic. The studless system is not easy to do elegantly, also we get new parts every year, I still learn a lot from the sets (looking at the Chiron, I could learn how to stack beams randomly ).

Another thing that bothers me is that I can see some "better" designs from hobbyists. One can argue about this, but in many cases I see strict or even stricter self imposed constrains in fan buils as TLG has.

Is it really that sci-fi for a modern company to team up with hobbyists in some projects (the only one I've seen so far was the Crawler body design project, and it was pretty succesful as I recall), or contract out some work? Okay, there are knock-off companies so it's a big risk (um... a proper contract maybe?) but I didn't see effort from TLG even before these companies emerged. Technic Ideas is a total failure, no need to say.

I don't think Lego can just lay back, as it still didn't defeat the knock-offs, whose quality will evenually reach Lego quality for 1/3 prize. And they even sell fan-designed models.

[Jim]

2 hours ago, Lipko said:

A set (at least I naively thought so) is not only a parts pack but also a teaching material, especialy in Technic. 

I feel the need to rectify or nuance my previous statement about Technic sets being parts packs. Of course, a Technic set first and foremost is a finished model which should operate properly and look nice. Regarding the functions; I've said it before, but some (most) of the functions feel more like proof of concepts. That is something which bothers me slightly. When I look at the turning radius of some of the models, you wonder why there is steering in the first place. Therefore, I do agree that there is little progress in the improvement of the functions themselves. Everything is getting better, except the functionality. Part of this is due to the fact that it still is LEGO, but when you say "it's all about functions", they need to be working properly.

[Bublehead]

When we  talk about functions  and how lame they seem to be, we need to understand that functionality in technic Lego is the product of good engineering, good building techniques, good parts, and LOTS of time.   And here time equals testing and refinement.  So there are multiple fronts that could be the root cause. Trying to sort that out is somebody’s job at TLG, not mine.  And all the discussion in the world is not going to help them figure it out if all we ever do is say “the functions suck” or “the functions are lame”.

 When I build my models I hope that I am using good engineering, good building techniques, good parts, and an adequate amount of testing and refinement.   It took me eight months to  design, engineer, build, and refine my model amusement ride.  My functions all work pretty flawlessly, within the bounds of the quality of the parts.  That doesn’t just happen, it takes a lot of skill, experience, budget, and lots of unlimited time.

Time is the one thing we all seem to have or we make concessions to get in order to enjoy our hobby.  Can you imagine what it is like to live under the thumb of your employer and have to create while being on the clock?   And I would like to acknowledge all the people who are doing builds for commission, and that you probably know what it is like. 

[Erik Leppen]

2 hours ago, Jim said:

Everything is getting better, excepting the functionality.

Which implies Technic is drifting away from its raison d'etre, its unique selling point. Technic IS about functionality. If there's one thing that should be good, it's the functionality. All the rest should be secondary to that. For looks, there's System, which does that much better.

So, when that one single thing Technic is the absolute king at, is declining, it's no surprise - and even justified - that AFOLs start acting up and complaining.

Take the Chiron 42083 set. That gearbox is great and an absolutely thrilling development. But I think it's worrisome that in a €350 set, they couldn't add suspension that works as well as that of 8865 (or 42083's own rear suspension). "It still is Lego" is no argument here - it should be an easy fix and I thin AFOLs perfectly feel whether something is an easy fix or not. (The W16 engine with its 3 crankshafts can't be easily improved, for example, and the function works as well as it can, so I don't complain there.) And the set is 16+, so we are in the target audience so if we don't like it, we have all reason to speak up.

I want to end saying something about that "if you don't like it, don't buy it" argument that often comes up when discussing flaws. Speaking for myself: I don't care if the set I buy isn't perfect - I buy for the parts anyway. But I feel with those who buy the set for the model, don't know it has flaws until they have built it, and don't know how to fix those flaws. So I complain if a set has flaws, even though they don't influence my own buying decision.

Edited June 20, 2018 by Erik Leppen
made things a bit shorter

[Jim]

7 minutes ago, Erik Leppen said:

...

You are absolutely right about the things mentioned in your post 

So yeah, I get the point about Technic not always working properly and I am not really sure what to think of it. Part of me thinks that there is a form of suspension and it's kinda working and part of me thinks that the set costs 400 euro, so it should work properly.

By the way; the rear suspension of the Chiron isn't working properly either (for me).

[aol000xw]

It is obvious that there are nicer sets, bigger sets, innovative sets; not all are bigger nicer and new but I think Technic is better in everything except one thing... the basics.

Over the years there have been moments of true awe and innovation. The change to studless the obvious one, but pneumatics in 8455 come to mind. Linear Actuators as hated as those are by some made 8043 amazing. And the Chiron new gear box parts are as simple as brilliant. However there is some kind of stagnation. Let me go back to the venerable 8880.

• 4 wheel drive. It is not the fact that it was 4WD but the differentials how it evolved from 8860. Now we are still like in 1994. I miss some innovations on this departing from old 8880, like a torsen or something.
• 4 wheel steering/suspension. It's all in The hubs. There have been a lot of new hubs since 1994, but are any of those really better? Do those allow better geometry? More fidelity? How is behavior of those functions?
• V8 Engine. We are still on the same parts and with bigger models those engines look tiny. Brick built engines are nicer in my opinion but no new parts that give a middleground  in size/complexity allowing valves for example. 
• Gearbox. Ok in the last two years they got this covered. Keep improving!!
• Popup headlights, Just a secondary function, nice to have, not rare on many current sets, so no complains.
• Body work. This has improved beyond recognition.
• Seats. Man wtf!! 8860 seats were incredible, amazing. We never got seats like those again.

So for me Technic is a 50%/50% We got a studless revolution, many new parts and technics, but the basics (steering/suspension/engine/differentials) haven't changed/improved in 25 years, and are too frequently poorly implemented. 

BTW why can't we have something like this? 

 

[Bublehead]

@Erik Leppen, yes, we all want sets that work, but are we not also too close to the subject to see this from a different perspective?  We as enthusiasts of Technic know a saggy suspension when we see one, but does the casual automotive enthusiast who buys a Chiron going to know that?  And for a display model, as long as the wheels move left and right when they turn the steering wheel, do they care the turning radius is 2+ meters?  And when they turn the wheels, does it matter that it takes three crankshafts to make all the pistons move, especially if you can’t see them? And do they care about how nifty the new rotary catch makes the transmission work? Do they care that the speed key is needed to play with the rear spoiler? The answers are mostly, no, they don’t care, and so TLG put in just enough time and effort to meet the needs of the average target market.  We know this is not AFOLs for the Chiron, it is car buffs and automotive gear heads. So that should not be a surprise.

The Rough terrain crane however should definitely cater to us, the Technic fan base. We have yet to see how the functionality of that set works but it better be more refined and functions work more flawlessly than the mass marketed Chiron.

 

[aol000xw]

Those who are not into something are usually quite less forgiving on its flaws because they don't expect any.

Everyone knows what a suspension is and how it feels even if they don't know how or what makes it work.. They experience it every day in cars, bikes whatever. People isn't stupid, show them a flawed Lego one and they will ask why it doesn't work. And if you tell them it is normal for Lego they will think Lego is crap.

At least that has been my experience in the past. And man it was embarrassing.

 

Edit: BTW why is LDD so outdated, many Technic parts are not there. I know they don't make money out of it. But it is a great tool that sure helps in planning and later getting more parts. It is a bit careless from them. Even if there are alternatives I think it is a must for them to have it and keep it up to date. Parts should be readily available not requiring a software update, just a data download.

 

Edit: One more thing... The unspoken problem on Lego in recent years. With bigger sets every year It is taking a staggering amount of space. I can't fathom this over the next 20 years. 

Edited June 20, 2018 by aol000xw

[agrof]

2 hours ago, Bublehead said:

we all want sets that work, but are we not also too close to the subject to see this from a different perspective?  We as enthusiasts of Technic know a saggy suspension when we see one, but does the casual automotive enthusiast who buys a Chiron going to know that?  And for a display model, as long as the wheels move left and right when they turn the steering wheel, do they care the turning radius is 2+ meters?  And when they turn the wheels, does it matter that it takes three crankshafts to make all the pistons move, especially if you can’t see them? And do they care about how nifty the new rotary catch makes the transmission work? Do they care that the speed key is needed to play with the rear spoiler? The answers are mostly, no, they don’t care, and so TLG put in just enough time and effort to meet the needs of the average target market.  We know this is not AFOLs for the Chiron, it is car buffs and automotive gear heads. So that should not be a surprise.

What You are describing is, let's say external motivation. But does the crowd's low demand meet the original LEGO legacy: "Only the best is good enough"? I think, no. This motto should be the internal motivation for TLG - sometimes they seemingly gave up on this with compromises You describe above. Or just transformed the meaning of best... best what? Best toy, best functions, best within the limitations, best official LEGO Chiron set (which has rather low competition to date ) or... best... profit? I believe, if You show the best product to the market, than even the reactions from the mass will be: OH, damn is this really LEGO?  -  instead of: Oh, it doesn't work so well, You know it's LEGO .

I think we AFOL's understand this slogen as it is valid in every (or at least most) aspects, and that's why we are picky. I agree with @Erik Leppen - if there is a function, it should reasonably work. Speaking of 42083 for easier example: a spring, which works only in one direction, can not be considered as correct function, also not as the best. Feels more like the slogan is twisted: "Good enough is the best." Meanwhile, understanding the limitations, I find the rear spoiler adjusting method reasonable, furthermore a nice gimmick with the "speed key". I can count more positive, than negative things about this certain set, but as metaphor: if there is only one nail is sticking out in your mattress - the whole night is ruined, it is just not the BEST mattress any more.

All in all, I miss sometimes this internal motivation from TLG's products (not each!). Especially noted at flagship models recently (those, we expect to be the best of the bests) , that's why they are much more under the loop, and hurts even more if there is a single annoying little fault found.

Edited June 20, 2018 by agrof

[Bublehead]

@agrof, point taken. The complete motto is “only the best is good enough for the children”, not AFOLs   But what you argue is not false.  As a matter of fact, I think TLG has strayed a little bit away from this in the quality of the latest Technic designs, but not the quality of parts.  The original motto story was because of the lack of layers of varnish on the ducks, not whether the Duck was the best quality design for a pull toy.  But if we hold them to their own high standard, do we do it by not purchasing the bad products, or by posting in forums like these, or both?  I purchase the sets, to keep TLG in business, then criticize the quality of the sets once I have built them on here so they hear about it.  I don’t think a truly critical review of a set can occur unless you have built it, and by then you are way past purchasing it, unless you have a massive collection and budget to buy all the pieces and assemble it from loose parts or you have a secret or not so secret connection that gets you the sets to review (right @Jim? )

So however people want to view TLG’s decisions, the good, the bad, and the ugly... It doesn’t matter to me as long as they keep making quality ABS injected plastic molded parts that fit together better than any other toy on the market. If they stop doing that, then that is when I stop buying Lego. 

[andythenorth]

Eh dunno.  Seems like if designers have to spend months placing and re-placing 1500 black and blue pins in a huge set....they might not have so much time for designing neat mechanisms 

8109 remains a high point in neat designs for me.  It kicks bum for a mid-range set.  Mechanism is really nice.  But if we wanted to nitpick....the battery box access sucks, and the winch is pretty lame.  But I dunno.  Where's the quality bar? 

https://brickset.com/sets/8109-1/Flatbed-Truck 

Edited June 20, 2018 by andythenorth

[Bublehead]

@andythenorth, agreed, some of the smaller sets are fantastic. I really liked the 42008 Service Truck from 2013. The build was great and the functions all worked well.  It satisfied me better than the the 911 once I was finished.  It takes a really well designed set to pull off all the functions in that scale.  But I almost passed on buying the set because of its diminutive size, and am I glad I didn’t.  The Claas tractor was also a very satisfying build, even with all its minor faults. I didn’t think all of its functions were going to be enough to keep me interested in the build but I was  pleasantly surprised after putting it together, and it has become a favorite model of that year.

 So that is why I am less critical of a set until after I have put it together, at which point I let the criticism flow if it is warranted, or the praise if it is worthy.

There are only a couple of reasons I ever pass on a Technic model... Does it have an element or part that can not be found on any other model? And If it is under 500 pieces, it better be cooler than snowman poop.

 

[Jim]

Life is all about expectations. Having the right expectations often avoids disappointments. 

As an AFOL we expect a big Technic set to be perfect. As a kid (or non AFOL adult) you are simply amazed by the sheer size and you f...ing love the big set, even though the suspension isn't on par or the gearbox has the incorrect sequence. We are probably in the top 1 or 2 percentile of people who are very critical about Technic sets.

So, the question is; would I be disappointed if I actually paid 400 euro for the Chiron with the current suspension or 300 for the Porsche with the faulty gearbox. To be honest; no, I wouldn't. Because I am not looking for the perfect Technic set. I am looking for a fun building experience and some nice features. Of course, I love it when everything works perfectly, but most of the time I play with it for about half an hour and then I disassemble the set, or put it on display for half a year (until the new sets arrive). Admittedly, I can play with the folding headlights on the 42039 B-model for hours  

[zoo]

Functions that do not work properly seem to be a hot topic at the moment, and I can understand why.

Now, I do not own the 42083 Chiron, hence I have no first hand experience with the suspension. However, I can easily imagine a scenario where the suspension is designed in an early state, before the body work is finalized. A few months, half a year or whatever later, the body work is done after countless of iterations and all of a sudden the car has gained 0,5-1kg extra weight making the suspension struggle to keep the front up. Next thing you know, launch date is approaching and with that the need to start finalizing packaging and all of the other stuff that have to be done to prepare for launch of the set. I believe it takes a lot more time to engineer these large LEGO Techinc sets than many here seem to realize.

Still, I feel it is very reasonable to expect the official LEGO Technic sets to work properly right out of the box without the need for modification. I know I do.

Many things have changed drasticly since I first started playing with LEGO Technic in the late 1980:s but some things that I longed for then still haven't become reality. For example, TLG have yet to design a proper, reasonably slim, steered, driven axle. The best attempt so far is the system used in the 8880 Supercar introduced back in 1994. Also, all black pneumatic cylinders. What's taking so long? Seriously.