Heroica: Glory Amongst The Stars RPG - Game Development

[Waterbrick Down]

3 hours ago, CMP said:

A few of my takeaways from that last round of suggestions:

I like the grid-based row mechanic. I do think that there's a few interesting things you could do with it: say for example, if you have a melee hero move into the enemy grid, a hero on their other side can flank for an attack bonus. Or have some squares grant cover to ranged fighters. Or difficult terrain...that sort of thing.

I really really like WBD's progression system. I think individual spells should maybe be part of that progression.

But my main question is whether or not classes (or rather, what they do) should remain a thing. Things like buffing allies and debuffing enemies and whatnot. You shouldn't have to be a spellcaster to get to do cool stuff. All it really takes is a high proficiency.

But I'm kind of rambling and I feel like I can't really articulate what I'm thinking about right now, so I'm just going to provide what I think might be good edits/elaborations.  Edits in orange.

Starting Character:
10 Experience Points, 2 Proficiencies at Rank 1, All Attributes at Score 1, 5 HP
Proficiency ranks cost EXP equal to the rank you increase to (i.e. to move a proficiency from 0 to 1 requires 1 EXP, 1 to 2 requires 2 EXP, 2 to 3 requires 3 EXP, etc.)
Attribute scores cost EXP equal to the score you increase to
Additional Hit Points cost 1 EXP
Additional Spells cost their listed EXP

Attributes:
Strength (A requirement for kinetic weapons and armor. Every point grants +1 bonus HP, and affects strength limit.)
Skill (A requirement for energy weapons. Every two points increase dodge and initiative, and affects skill limit.)
Smarts (A requirement for elemental weapons. Every point increases your maximum proficiency ranks and number, and affects smarts limit.)
Spirit (A requirement for spellcasting. Every point increases your maximum spells known and their potency, and affects spirit limit.)

Stats:
HP (5 + HP from EXP + Strength)
Initiative Pool (1 + Skill/2)d6, skill limit
Armor [Type] (Armor Mod + Skill/2)
Attack [Weapon] Test (Weapon Mod + relevant Proficiency)d6, [Weapon Attribute] limit
Proficiency Test (Relevant Proficiency)d6, smarts limit
Magic Test (Relevant Proficiency)d6, spirit limit

Derived Stats:
Maximum Proficiencies (Smarts*4)
Maximum Proficiency Rank (Smarts*3)
Maximum Spells Known (Spirit*2)
Strength Limit (Strength*2)
Skill Limit (Skill*2)
Smarts Limit (Smarts*2)
Spirit Limit (Spirit*2)

Proficiencies:
Short Range Weapons (Pistols, shotguns, thrown weapons.)
Long Range Weapons (Rifles, snipers, bows.)
Artillery Weapons (Grenade launchers, rocket launchers.)
Melee Weapons (Swords, axes, clubs.)
Acrobatics (Flexibility, gymnastics. Ability: Jump Strike)
Athletics (Endurance, physical feats. Ability: Grapple)
Arcana (Enchantment, abjuration. Arcane Magic)
Computers (Electronics, software. Ability: Hack Machine)
Culture (Customs, translation. Ability: Identify)
Deception (Lying, misdirection. Ability: Feint)
Engineering (Mechanics, hardware. Ability: Weapon Boost)
History (Study of the past, knowledge. Ability: Adaptation)
Insight (Investigation, reading people. Ability: Spot Weakness)
Intimidation (Bullying, frightening. Ability: Demoralize)
Medicine (Health, medicine. Ability: Healing Injection)
Nature (Elemental, conjuration. Druidic Magic)
Occult (Necromancy, spirtism. Occult Magic)
Perception (Spotting, searching. Ability: Mark Target)
Performance (Dancing, singing. Ability: Mesmerize)
Persuasion (Negotiation, diplomacy. Ability: Encourage)
Piloting (Flying, driving. Ability: Drone Strike)
Religion (Divination, restoration. Divine Magic)
Sleight of Hand (Pickpocketing, lockpicking. Ability: Steal)
Stealth (Sneaking, hiding. Ability: Hide)
Survival (Hunting, tracking. Ability: Hunt Down)

Spells:
Elemental Beam (Arcana, Nature)
Cost to Learn: 2 EXP
Base DC: 2
Base Range: 1
Damage: Successes beyond DC, Elemental
Fires a beam in a straight line that deals elemental damage to all targets in a row, friendly or enemy. For every 2 by which you choose to increase the DC, the range increases by 1. 

Spell (and those abilities) are just examples. My other idea was, for damaging spells, doing a Spell Modifier like a Weapon Modifier and straight up targeting enemy Armor. But basically, I think we should tie the ability to do things in battle besides attacking into proficiencies.

The alternative is straight-up buying spells, which is another valid option.

I like the additional proficiencies, I get what you're saying about non-magic characters having stuff to do and I always figured that was the point of Proficiency tests. I'm not quite sold on giving each proficiency an ability, we'd need to make sure they're all balanced. Additionally each would have it's own rule set requiring GM's to constantly go back and reference the abilities. If we're interested in giving people more combat options, my first suggestion was allow players two new actions:
Defend: Add the character's Skill Attribute dice to their target's next defensive pool
Rally: Add the character's Smart Attribute dice to their target's next offensive pool

Beyond that, everything else would be a contested check. Want to move an enemy back a row? Roll a contested Strength or Athletics check. Want to more confidently dodge the opponents next attack? Roll a contested acrobatics or stealth check.

I like the addition of the Spirit Attribute. If I'm understanding correctly though, casters don't expend spirit to cast spells though, correct? They basically have limitless spells and are more limited by the number they know.

Can you explain the point of the Attribute Limits? Would the intention be to correlate each proficiency to a certain attribute? 

[CMP]

2 hours ago, KotZ said:

I like these sugestions, especially for Spirit. Now, would Spirit be a starting attribute, or would it unlock after purchasing a magic-based proficiency? Also, the proficiencies and descriptions save some interesting ideas, like demoralize. I'm guessing that's a way to cause effects, like items would?

I suppose it would make sense for Spirit to start at 0. And pretty much.

6 minutes ago, Waterbrick Down said:

I like the additional proficiencies, I get what you're saying about non-magic characters having stuff to do and I always figured that was the point of Proficiency tests. I'm not quite sold on giving each proficiency an ability, we'd need to make sure they're all balanced. Additionally each would have it's own rule set requiring GM's to constantly go back and reference the abilities. If we're interested in giving people more combat options, my first suggestion was allow players two new actions:
Defend: Add the character's Skill Attribute dice to their target's next defensive pool
Rally: Add the character's Smart Attribute dice to their target's next offensive pool

Beyond that, everything else would be a contested check. Want to move an enemy back a row? Roll a contested Strength or Athletics check. Want to more confidently dodge the opponents next attack? Roll a contested acrobatics or stealth check.

I like the addition of the Spirit Attribute. If I'm understanding correctly though, casters don't expend spirit to cast spells though, correct? They basically have limitless spells and are more limited by the number they know.

Can you explain the point of the Attribute Limits? Would the intention be to correlate each proficiency to a certain attribute? 

Each proficiency's ability wouldn't be any more complicated than an individual spell, so I don't really see the problem there. Defend and Rally are fine but ultimately that's just three actions while spellcasters are getting an entire host of spells and whatnot. I'm not saying they have to be tied into proficiencies, it just seemed like the most logical way to do it. There just needs to be an avenue to gain abilities in the way that spellcasters gain spells.

Attribute limits keep min-maxing from getting out of hand. Let's say a player wants to do nothing but use a sniper. Naturally, they should be very good at it. But if they pump every attribute point they get into long-range weapons, and get a really good sniper, they're going to be rolling enough dice to make an enemy's Armor completely irrelevant. They are going to hit and they are going to do stupid amounts of damage.

An Attribute limit puts a cap on the number of successes you can possibly get. Not a cap on the dice you roll, but on the successes only. So, even if your proficiency in long range is ridiculous, and your weapon is really great, you can't go one-shotting everything. Sure, you're probably rolling enough to where your successes are pushing the limit, but because of the limit, you can't turn it all into obscene amounts of damage.

Picture if Heroica had a limit on how many multipliers you could put on a single hit's worth of damage.

Basically, you can optimize being able to hit, but your damage can't launch into the stratosphere if you do.

[Waterbrick Down]

45 minutes ago, CMP said:

I suppose it would make sense for Spirit to start at 0. And pretty much.

Each proficiency's ability wouldn't be any more complicated than an individual spell, so I don't really see the problem there. Defend and Rally are fine but ultimately that's just three actions while spellcasters are getting an entire host of spells and whatnot. I'm not saying they have to be tied into proficiencies, it just seemed like the most logical way to do it. There just needs to be an avenue to gain abilities in the way that spellcasters gain spells.

Attribute limits keep min-maxing from getting out of hand. Let's say a player wants to do nothing but use a sniper. Naturally, they should be very good at it. But if they pump every attribute point they get into long-range weapons, and get a really good sniper, they're going to be rolling enough dice to make an enemy's Armor completely irrelevant. They are going to hit and they are going to do stupid amounts of damage.

An Attribute limit puts a cap on the number of successes you can possibly get. Not a cap on the dice you roll, but on the successes only. So, even if your proficiency in long range is ridiculous, and your weapon is really great, you can't go one-shotting everything. Sure, you're probably rolling enough to where your successes are pushing the limit, but because of the limit, you can't turn it all into obscene amounts of damage.

Picture if Heroica had a limit on how many multipliers you could put on a single hit's worth of damage.

Basically, you can optimize being able to hit, but your damage can't launch into the stratosphere if you do.

Point taken on the proficiency abilities, I guess I wanted to see it a little more free form as opposed to have defined rules for things like hacking/drones/marking/encouraging, etc.

I get the point of the attributes limits, looking back I missed the [Weapon Attribute] limit part. This makes sense now and I'm all for it.

[CMP]

1 minute ago, Waterbrick Down said:

Point taken on the proficiency abilities, I guess I wanted to see it a little more free form as opposed to have defined rules for things like hacking/drones/marking/encouraging, etc.

I get the point of the attributes limits, looking back I missed the [Weapon Attribute] limit part. This makes sense now and I'm all for it.

We could separate them out further. Have Abilities that for all intents and purposes are basically just non-magical spells, purchased with EXP and governed by Smarts rather than Spirit. Each could correspond to one or several proficiencies for the purposes of tests - much like the magical skills (Nature, Arcana, Occult, Religion) - and follow the same sort of rules.

[KotZ]

59 minutes ago, Waterbrick Down said:

I like the additional proficiencies, I get what you're saying about non-magic characters having stuff to do and I always figured that was the point of Proficiency tests. I'm not quite sold on giving each proficiency an ability, we'd need to make sure they're all balanced. Additionally each would have it's own rule set requiring GM's to constantly go back and reference the abilities. If we're interested in giving people more combat options, my first suggestion was allow players two new actions:
Defend: Add the character's Skill Attribute dice to their target's next defensive pool
Rally: Add the character's Smart Attribute dice to their target's next offensive pool

Beyond that, everything else would be a contested check. Want to move an enemy back a row? Roll a contested Strength or Athletics check. Want to more confidently dodge the opponents next attack? Roll a contested acrobatics or stealth check.

I like the addition of the Spirit Attribute. If I'm understanding correctly though, casters don't expend spirit to cast spells though, correct? They basically have limitless spells and are more limited by the number they know.

Can you explain the point of the Attribute Limits? Would the intention be to correlate each proficiency to a certain attribute? 

43 minutes ago, CMP said:

I suppose it would make sense for Spirit to start at 0. And pretty much.

Each proficiency's ability wouldn't be any more complicated than an individual spell, so I don't really see the problem there. Defend and Rally are fine but ultimately that's just three actions while spellcasters are getting an entire host of spells and whatnot. I'm not saying they have to be tied into proficiencies, it just seemed like the most logical way to do it. There just needs to be an avenue to gain abilities in the way that spellcasters gain spells.

Attribute limits keep min-maxing from getting out of hand. Let's say a player wants to do nothing but use a sniper. Naturally, they should be very good at it. But if they pump every attribute point they get into long-range weapons, and get a really good sniper, they're going to be rolling enough dice to make an enemy's Armor completely irrelevant. They are going to hit and they are going to do stupid amounts of damage.

An Attribute limit puts a cap on the number of successes you can possibly get. Not a cap on the dice you roll, but on the successes only. So, even if your proficiency in long range is ridiculous, and your weapon is really great, you can't go one-shotting everything. Sure, you're probably rolling enough to where your successes are pushing the limit, but because of the limit, you can't turn it all into obscene amounts of damage.

Picture if Heroica had a limit on how many multipliers you could put on a single hit's worth of damage.

Basically, you can optimize being able to hit, but your damage can't launch into the stratosphere if you do.

I see both points, that proficiencies with specific actions can get confusing, but if we are adding in a bunch of spells, it's similar amount of work. I think the big issue with proficiency ability/actions is the baggage from Heroica 1.0 and the class structure (at least for me). When I had to run battles, I had to open up dozens of tabs with every class and then roll, and then see what the roll was, calculate that, etc. I think that's where I'm apprehensive on specific abilities (although I do like them), and while not speaking for WBD, I think that might be his thoughts too.

That being said, proficiency/action ability is a great way for people to do things and feel like they grow. In H1, we knew that spellcaster classes were limited. With what H2 seems to be shaping up to be, anyone can cast spells as long as they have at least the first level of a proficiency. That's perfectly fine, imo. With the proficiencies tied to actions, I think we just have to make sure each action/proficiency is very clear and leave little room to interpretation. Then, when the actions are being used, the skill check/dice pool comes into play. I think it's the best of both worlds as long as things are explained clearly.

In the case of items and effects, I think there should be items that can do similar effects to spells and abilities, but at a very reduced capacity.

3 minutes ago, Waterbrick Down said:

Point taken on the proficiency abilities, I guess I wanted to see it a little more free form as opposed to have defined rules for things like hacking/drones/marking/encouraging, etc.

If this makes sense, I think the more defined (maybe say clearer) rules are, the more room there will be for people to play around, especially when people get a hang of things.

[CMP]

Leaving it more freeform is an option. I personally am a rules-oriented person, but that's just me. 

[KotZ]

Just now, CMP said:

We could separate them out further. Have Abilities that for all intents and purposes are basically just non-magical spells, purchased with EXP and governed by Smarts rather than Spirit. Each could correspond to one or several proficiencies for the purposes of tests - much like the magical skills (Nature, Arcana, Occult, Religion) - and follow the same sort of rules.

Yes please. I think this is important if we go the sci-fantasy route. Some people will lean more into fantasy, some will lean more into a somewhat harder sci-fi, and a way to balance those in abilities would be good.

[samurai-turtle]

I do think defend needs to be a thing. It didn't make sense to me in the last game you just stood there, waiting for a mace in your face. 

As for fighters what if their is spells just for them. Here is some examples...

Haste - Now you can attack twice for three rounds, can only be cast on yourself. (I wouldn't think a wizard would use this spell.) 

Thunder Fang - The user's weapon has a electrical charge and stuns for three rounds. 

Fire Fang - The user's weapon has a heat charge and burns for three rounds. 

Spin Out - The user's unleashes a strong spinning attack on multiple enemies. (I was thinking something like what the ninjas do in Ninjago or what Sonic the Hedgehog and Samus Aran from Metroid could do.)  

I imagine if something like this is done, a place to put a list would be need. But at the same time if the name is "simple" enough it would not be to hard remember what the spell does. 

And just for the record my knowledge of Dungeon & Dragons (D&D) would be considered limited. 

[KotZ]

Just now, samurai-turtle said:

I do think defend needs to be a thing. It didn't make sense to me in the last game you just stood there, waiting for a mace in your face. 

As for fighters what if their is spells just for them. Here is some examples...

I imagine if something like this is done, a place to put a list would be need. But at the same time if the name is "simple" enough it would not be to hard remember what the spell does.

Defend should be a thing, like take a round to defend, possibly get a chance to up shields or health, rather than use a potion or fight.

I feel like "spells" for only fighters is somewhat iffy though. While it wouldn't be too difficult to make a sperate list, I think the challenge would be in making sure there are equal abilities for fighter and spellcasters. And also, if becoming a spellcaster is easy, like you just need a single proficiency in Arcana./Occult/etc, it wouldn't be totally necessary for fighter "Spells." Especially if people were wanting to cross-class or whatever the term in DnD is. For the Dragon Age Origins fans out there, Arcane Warrior and Spirit Warrior forever. You bring up some really good points though.

Quote

Spin Out - The user's unleashes a strong spinning attack on multiple enemies. (I was thinking something like what the ninjas do in Ninjago or what Sonic the Hedgehog and Samus Aran from Metroid could do.)  

Forget "Spin Out," let's just go for Spinjitzu on this one if we use it.

As a side note, in the lore can we have an evil faction called Galidorians?

[Waterbrick Down]

20 hours ago, samurai-turtle said:

I do think defend needs to be a thing. It didn't make sense to me in the last game you just stood there, waiting for a mace in your face. 

As for fighters what if their is spells just for them. Here is some examples...

Haste - Now you can attack twice for three rounds, can only be cast on yourself. (I wouldn't think a wizard would use this spell.) 

Thunder Fang - The user's weapon has a electrical charge and stuns for three rounds. 

Fire Fang - The user's weapon has a heat charge and burns for three rounds. 

Spin Out - The user's unleashes a strong spinning attack on multiple enemies. (I was thinking something like what the ninjas do in Ninjago or what Sonic the Hedgehog and Samus Aran from Metroid could do.)  

I imagine if something like this is done, a place to put a list would be need. But at the same time if the name is "simple" enough it would not be to hard remember what the spell does. 

And just for the record my knowledge of Dungeon & Dragons (D&D) would be considered limited. 

The issue is that with the current system there is no such thing as a "fighter" since everything is classless. 4th edition tried something like what your suggesting by giving every class "spells", but most of the community felt like it reduced the system to a League of Legends like MMO.

A defend action could easily be doable:

Defend: For one round the character doubles their Skill Attribute against incoming attacks.

20 hours ago, CMP said:

We could separate them out further. Have Abilities that for all intents and purposes are basically just non-magical spells, purchased with EXP and governed by Smarts rather than Spirit. Each could correspond to one or several proficiencies for the purposes of tests - much like the magical skills (Nature, Arcana, Occult, Religion) - and follow the same sort of rules.

Considering that as an alternative, I think it'd be better to keep them aligned with proficiencies, otherwise you'll have characters that end up spending more EXP on "powers" and the skills themselves will be somewhat useless.

[Flipz]

Actually, casting spells from HP is a really good way of making spellcasting be a big risk/reward.  Perhaps Ether/Mana/SP/Whatever works like the various armor types?  (That is, expensive to increase but regenerates automatically after a fight, but once you deplete it the spells start coming out of your vitality.)  Weak mages with basic spells can pop them off easily, but big spells would mean the caster would have to think hard about if they can survive with the lowered HP after their cast.)

On 4/30/2019 at 9:06 PM, KotZ said:

Ah ok, those proficiencies make sense. As for rest and balance, I definitely think something like a bedroll would help, as would that Survival proficiency I gave a thought for. It might also be up to the QMs to make sure there are rest spots available?

Maybe the spell levels you mentioned earlier determine how often they can be cast? I'd say we could just have a list of combat spells and noncombat spells, like a flame to give light, etc.

*has traumatic flashbacks to Hoard of the Dragon Queen*

I'm... not sure rest should be the primary mechanic for recovering resources and HP.  That basically means you have a pretty hard cap on one, maybe two combats per in-universe day -- doesn't leave a lot of room for things like a survival horror zombie defense quest taking place in a single night, or something like a rebellion where time is of the essence but there's also a lot of fighting to be done.  To bring up the opening of Hoard, you start the adventure immediately thrown into combat, and you have like six different encounters afterwards all in the space of a single day/night.  The scenario was set up so as to allow occasional one-hour short rests for minor HP recovery, but major healing and spell slots didn't replenish without a long rest (8 hours), which made things miserable as a low-level spellcaster.  (In my case, I saved a party member and a hostage from death with my one Magic Missile, and then spent the next four IRL weeks stuck without magic.)  It was a miserable experience that almost made me give up tabletop RPGs entirely, and I think repeating it here wouldn't be a good idea.

I'd honestly get rid of positive status effects entirely.  Flat single-stage buffs/debuffs ("buffed" vs "neutral" vs "debuffed", as opposed to Pokemon's multiple stages) to attack, defense, and accuracy keep things simple, and avoid confusion and brokenness; to go back to my Persona Q example, a lot of the broken stuff in that game makes use of things like Bestial/Dragon Roar and Aigis' Orgia Mode that let you stack multipliers on top of each other (now whose build does that remind me of... ).

On 5/1/2019 at 5:47 PM, KotZ said:

I like these sugestions, especially for Spirit. Now, would Spirit be a starting attribute, or would it unlock after purchasing a magic-based proficiency? Also, the proficiencies and descriptions save some interesting ideas, like demoralize. I'm guessing that's a way to cause effects, like items would?

I'd go with Spirit being universal from the start, so even if a character goes full physical they have some access to magic in a pinch, and might even encourage a bit of light dabbling from time to time rather than locking completely into a caster vs non-caster dichotomy.  (Also helps avoid stuff like magic-boosting equipment and stat bonuses being useless for physical builds, like that +5 Ether/-5 HP pie Arthur held onto for literal years because Ether was useless to him as a Dragoon/Skirmisher.)

As far as proficiency suggestions, maybe something related to protection, i.e. putting oneself in between a target and danger or pushing a target out of harm's way?  (One thing I disliked about 1.0 tanks was that instead of taking damage so others didn't have to -- i.e. the traditional "tank" role in an MMO -- it was just all about being near-invincible individually and then using your leftover resources to kill enemies faster.  Ultimately made everyone have to invest in being somewhat of a tank, rather than being a role people could consciously take on.)  Tactics might be another good proficiency flavor-wise, though maybe that would already fall under Insight.

EDIT: didn't see the new page.  WBD's Defend/Rally actions at the top of the page seem great.

Edited May 3, 2019 by Flipz

[Waterbrick Down]

15 hours ago, Flipz said:

Actually, casting spells from HP is a really good way of making spellcasting be a big risk/reward.  Perhaps Ether/Mana/SP/Whatever works like the various armor types?  (That is, expensive to increase but regenerates automatically after a fight, but once you deplete it the spells start coming out of your vitality.)  Weak mages with basic spells can pop them off easily, but big spells would mean the caster would have to think hard about if they can survive with the lowered HP after their cast.)

We're still going to run into the same issue we had with Heroica 1.0 though, either you have to infinitely scale the spells or "mages" will just stock up on health instead of ether. While it does introduce an extra risk/reward I'm not sure it'll be balanced enough unless healing magic/items are limited.

15 hours ago, Flipz said:

*has traumatic flashbacks to Hoard of the Dragon Queen*

I'm... not sure rest should be the primary mechanic for recovering resources and HP.  That basically means you have a pretty hard cap on one, maybe two combats per in-universe day -- doesn't leave a lot of room for things like a survival horror zombie defense quest taking place in a single night, or something like a rebellion where time is of the essence but there's also a lot of fighting to be done.  To bring up the opening of Hoard, you start the adventure immediately thrown into combat, and you have like six different encounters afterwards all in the space of a single day/night.  The scenario was set up so as to allow occasional one-hour short rests for minor HP recovery, but major healing and spell slots didn't replenish without a long rest (8 hours), which made things miserable as a low-level spellcaster.  (In my case, I saved a party member and a hostage from death with my one Magic Missile, and then spent the next four IRL weeks stuck without magic.)  It was a miserable experience that almost made me give up tabletop RPGs entirely, and I think repeating it here wouldn't be a good idea.

I think that might have been the first adventure for 5th edition, it had a lot of problems.  I get the worry about limiting low-level spell casters. It goes back to the old adage of "linear fighters, quadratic wizards". Basically the way I see it, we need a way to keep someone who invests solely in spell casting and someone who invests solely in weapon combat balanced. Weapons combat is pretty straight forward as characters are typically as effective in battle number 1 as they are in battle number 2 (ignoring hit points lost over time). You can keep spell casters the same way (as effective in battle number 1 as battle number 2), it simply means their "weapons" are spells, i.e. instead of shooting a bullet they shoot a fire bolt. That means however that they shouldn't get utility spells (as weapon combatants don't get anything equivalent), they shouldn't get bigger explosion spells (again there is no weapon combatant equivalent), they're simply a reskinned weapon user.

I don't believe most folks are going to like a reskinned weapon user however as they like the idea of magic being "different" in either scale or utility. That means spell casters have to have a limited resource, unlike weapon users, that can affect how viable they are from battle to battle depending on how they used that resource. Now if they averaged that resource, their overall effectiveness would remain equivalent to a weapon user (or maybe a little less, if we're giving them utility spells), but they will have the option of blowing all of their resources to do extremely well in one combat and extremely poorly in the next. Now that resource could be health, however because health is effected by other things like items/healing magic it'll be very difficult to balance without effecting how those things impact non-spell casting characters. It could be something like SP or Spirit, it could be spell difficulty (i.e basic spells get harder and harder to cast as the quest goes on), or it could simply be spell effectiveness (i.e. basic spells do less and less damage as the quest goes on). Either way, because it's a limited resource, we'll need a defined way that it can be restocked. If that restocking only occurs over the length of a quest, than a 5 combat quest is going to be much more laboring on a spell caster than a 2 combat quest. I don't know if I have a solution, just things I'm trying to keep in mind.

16 hours ago, Flipz said:

I'd honestly get rid of positive status effects entirely.  Flat single-stage buffs/debuffs ("buffed" vs "neutral" vs "debuffed", as opposed to Pokemon's multiple stages) to attack, defense, and accuracy keep things simple, and avoid confusion and brokenness; to go back to my Persona Q example, a lot of the broken stuff in that game makes use of things like Bestial/Dragon Roar and Aigis' Orgia Mode that let you stack multipliers on top of each other (now whose build does that remind me of... ).

Folks still like playing support "classes" so ensuring ways for people to still play that type of character would be idea. However I don't have any qualms about getting rid of the positive status effects or at least the way they were used (i.e. multiplicative).

16 hours ago, Flipz said:

I'd go with Spirit being universal from the start, so even if a character goes full physical they have some access to magic in a pinch, and might even encourage a bit of light dabbling from time to time rather than locking completely into a caster vs non-caster dichotomy.  (Also helps avoid stuff like magic-boosting equipment and stat bonuses being useless for physical builds, like that +5 Ether/-5 HP pie Arthur held onto for literal years because Ether was useless to him as a Dragoon/Skirmisher.)

Agreed.

[KotZ]

1 hour ago, Waterbrick Down said:

I think that might have been the first adventure for 5th edition, it had a lot of problems.  I get the worry about limiting low-level spell casters. It goes back to the old adage of "linear fighters, quadratic wizards". Basically the way I see it, we need a way to keep someone who invests solely in spell casting and someone who invests solely in weapon combat balanced. Weapons combat is pretty straight forward as characters are typically as effective in battle number 1 as they are in battle number 2 (ignoring hit points lost over time). You can keep spell casters the same way (as effective in battle number 1 as battle number 2), it simply means their "weapons" are spells, i.e. instead of shooting a bullet they shoot a fire bolt. That means however that they shouldn't get utility spells (as weapon combatants don't get anything equivalent), they shouldn't get bigger explosion spells (again there is no weapon combatant equivalent), they're simply a reskinned weapon user.

I don't believe most folks are going to like a reskinned weapon user however as they like the idea of magic being "different" in either scale or utility. That means spell casters have to have a limited resource, unlike weapon users, that can affect how viable they are from battle to battle depending on how they used that resource. Now if they averaged that resource, their overall effectiveness would remain equivalent to a weapon user (or maybe a little less, if we're giving them utility spells), but they will have the option of blowing all of their resources to do extremely well in one combat and extremely poorly in the next. Now that resource could be health, however because health is effected by other things like items/healing magic it'll be very difficult to balance without effecting how those things impact non-spell casting characters. It could be something like SP or Spirit, it could be spell difficulty (i.e basic spells get harder and harder to cast as the quest goes on), or it could simply be spell effectiveness (i.e. basic spells do less and less damage as the quest goes on). Either way, because it's a limited resource, we'll need a defined way that it can be restocked. If that restocking only occurs over the length of a quest, than a 5 combat quest is going to be much more laboring on a spell caster than a 2 combat quest. I don't know if I have a solution, just things I'm trying to keep in mind.

I think Flipz' siggestion of Spirit being universal can help with this, making spellcasters different but still relatively equivalent, as now players have the choice to spec into magic or not.

Regarding ulitity spells for weapon combatants, is that a possible thing to add? I think having Spirit be a way to act as what spell you can use, activate, etc is probably one of the better options, as difficulty of spells can be increased throughout the game/quest. Perhaps spellcasters can choose what level they want to attempt? Like Fire Ball I or III, etc.

Restocking of said resource can also come right after a battle, and I think the proficiencies can come in handy with this. I suggested Survival earlier be a way to have HP restore after battles. Maybe there's something similar for spell casting?

[samurai-turtle]

23 hours ago, Waterbrick Down said:

The issue is that with the current system there is no such thing as a "fighter" since everything is classless. 4th edition tried something like what your suggesting by giving every class "spells", but most of the community felt like it reduced the system to a League of Legends like MMO.

  OK, I think I am going to need a guide for this thread.  

On 5/1/2019 at 1:15 AM, KotZ said:

As for your effects post, I think Flipz alluded to this. I really like your idea of frozen to melting to burning as an example for frozen to fire. I wonder if it might be too complicated, but if it could be used, I’m all in on cross “class” and such combos. 

If it does get use, I did thought of some more effects canceling a different one out. 

- Frozen gets replaced by Burning. (You know fire with burning and ice with frozen.) 

- Poison gets replaced by Sleeping. (Because some animals do this in real life to get rid of poison, for example the Honey Badger.) 

- Stun gets replaced by Sleeping. (Part of me thinks it should work but then some times I wake up a little sore. ) 

- Bleeding gets replaced by Frozen. (I kinda ripped this off The Flash, if this works in real life is another question.) 

- Sleeping gets replaced by Bleeding. (If you where sleeping and got cut wouldn't you wake up.) 

- Sleeping gets replaced by Burning. (Basically it is the same as the last one.) 

- Blindness gets replaced by Sleeping. (Mostly because people usually close their eyes when they sleep and sleep in general cures stuff.) 

If I do think of more I put it out their...

2 hours ago, KotZ said:

Restocking of said resource can also come right after a battle, and I think the proficiencies can come in handy with this. I suggested Survival earlier be a way to have HP restore after battles. Maybe there's something similar for spell casting?

Well I seen Wisdom and Intelligence get used for spell casting maybe one could be used also. 

Then I started to think how about using MegaMan Battle Network. It used chips (or cards) for "attacks". So you can make a folder (or spell book) of 30 chips with a Max of 4 of a kind, per battle. And then the folder get reloaded for the next battle. Plus, some chips could be used in a special sequence to activate a "special attack". If any of this could be used here is another question should be asked... 

 I am just going to throw this out their. If anyone needs a player to test a system out, I could give a hand. 

[Kintobor]

There was talk earlier about fighters using “spells”, and that was shot down, reasonably so.

 

What if we had an action economy system, where actions cost points to perform? This could include spells, and I’d imagine certain abilities giving you action points in order to allow someone to increase their point pool.

[KotZ]

On 5/3/2019 at 7:15 PM, samurai-turtle said:

 I am just going to throw this out their. If anyone needs a player to test a system out, I could give a hand. 

Yes please. On page 4 or 5 I posted some of my thoughts/ramblings on a system for a quest. After all the great stuff people have been adding, I'm wanting to wait until we have a bit better idea for magic and combat before running that test quest, but we definitely need one.

2 hours ago, Kintobor said:

What if we had an action economy system, where actions cost points to perform? This could include spells, and I’d imagine certain abilities giving you action points in order to allow someone to increase their point pool.

When would APs replenish? After every battle? Could players use "tonics" or something to replenish during battle? The only question I have (that may have been answered earlier) is what uses an action point? Because that might result in ranged weapons being superior again.

[Waterbrick Down]

5 hours ago, Kintobor said:

There was talk earlier about fighters using “spells”, and that was shot down, reasonably so.

 

What if we had an action economy system, where actions cost points to perform? This could include spells, and I’d imagine certain abilities giving you action points in order to allow someone to increase their point pool.

Action point systems tend to be pretty crunchy and requires quite a bit of balancing to ensure no particular strategy becomes abused. Not that it can't work, but it will require a lot more finagling.

Figured I'd give a first stab at CMP's proficiency abilities, a few caveats. I'm assuming we'd include the following standard combat options:
Attack: Weapons Test vs. Enemies Skill and Armor
Defend: Add the character's Skill Attribute dice to their target's next defensive pool (Can target self)
Rally: Add the character's Smart Attribute dice to their target's next offensive pool

A couple other notes:
When dividing, always round down to a minimum of 1
Combat Action DC's (Dice Check) reset at the end of a battle unless otherwise stated
Combat Effects and Proficiency Skill Tests are limited by their corresponding Attribute Limits (See CMP's post)
Combat effects last till the end of a battle unless otherwise stated
Enemies are divided into: Organic, Synthetic, Phantasmal
Success Score standard is 1-3

Acrobatics - Dodge (Combat Effect): Characters may add their Acrobatics Proficiency/2 to their Skill attribute against Enemy Ranged Attacks 
Athletics - Grapple (Combat Action): Characters roll an Athletics Skill Test (DC 1) against an adjacent enemy, upon success the enemy cannot move till the character's next turn. The DC increases by 1 for every consecutive round the character maintains the Grapple.
Culture (Combined with History) - Identify (Combat Effect): Characters can add their Culture proficiency when Defending themselves
Deception - Feint (Combat Effect): Characters can add their Deception proficiency when Defending themselves
Engineering - Weapon Boost (Combat Action): Character may add (Engineering Proficiency/2) to an adjacent ally's Weapon Rating a number of times equal to their Engineering proficiency.
Insight - Spot Weakness (Combat Effect): Characters can reroll a number of Weapon Test dice equal to their Insight Proficiency/2
Intimidation - Demoralize (Combat Action): Characters roll an Intimidation Skill Test (DC 1) against an enemy, upon success the enemy next Weapon Test Success Score is decreased by 1. The DC increases by 1 for every consecutive round the character maintains the Intimidation.
Medicine - Combat Triage (Combat Action): Characters may add their Medicine Proficiency to an adjacent ally's Health a number of times equal to their Medicine proficiency.
Perception - Aim (Combat Action): Characters may spend an action to add their Perception proficiency to their next Weapon Test
Performance - Mesmerize (Combat Action): Characters roll a Performance Skill Test (DC = Target's Smart Attribute) against an Organic enemy, upon success the target skips its next turn. 
Persuasion - Encourage (Combat Effect): Characters can add their Persuasion proficiency when Rallying an ally
Piloting - Drone Strike (Combat Effect): Characters can attack any enemy regardless of range a number of times equal to their Piloting proficiency/2
Sleight of Hand - Steal (Combat Action): Characters roll a Sleight of Hand Skill Test (DC = Target's Smart Attribute) against an adjacent enemy, upon success the character obtains one random item from the enemy's inventory. 
Stealth - Hide (Combat Action): Character roll a Stealth Skill Test (DC 1), upon success the character cannot be targeted till their next turn. The DC increases by 1 for every consecutive round the character remains hidden.
Survival - Pursue (Combat Effect): Characters may shift into an adjacent enemy's space immediately after they move, a number of times equal to their Survival Proficiency.
Technology (Renamed from Computers) - Hack (Combat Action): Characters roll a Technology Skill Test (DC = Target's Smart Attribute) against a Synthetic enemy, upon success the target skips its next turn.

On a completely different topic, should enemy stats be shown to the players during combat?

[KotZ]

52 minutes ago, Waterbrick Down said:

On a completely different topic, should enemy stats be shown to the players during combat?

Yes, aside from specific quest instances/trusted QMs running something for a specific reason. I think it would help keep transparency between players and QMs. While I don't think it would be abused, I'd rather not let the option of "Oh you just destoyed my boss in two rounds, well I'll make it six rounds!" happen. Not knowing the stats of an enemy should only happen on approved quests/events, as in the QM cleared it with a Lore Master/Quest Master to make sure everything is a-ok.

Edited May 5, 2019 by KotZ

[Waterbrick Down]

1 hour ago, KotZ said:

Yes, aside from specific quest instances/trusted QMs running something for a specific reason. I think it would help keep transparency between players and QMs. While I don't think it would be abused, I'd rather not let the option of "Oh you just destoyed my boss in two rounds, well I'll make it six rounds!" happen. Not knowing the stats of an enemy should only happen on approved quests/events, as in the QM cleared it with a Lore Master/Quest Master to make sure everything is a-ok.

But from a RP perspective, how would a character know the giant death robot only has 5HP remaining? Or what about the scenario where the monster can do 60 points of damage and the hero only has 59 hit points left and decides to take a potion? Maybe I just haven't encountered any bad QM's yet in my gaming experience, but I typically find it's easier for players to game the system than DM's.

[samurai-turtle]

4 hours ago, Waterbrick Down said:

But from a RP perspective, how would a character know the giant death robot only has 5HP remaining? Or what about the scenario where the monster can do 60 points of damage and the hero only has 59 hit points left and decides to take a potion? Maybe I just haven't encountered any bad QM's yet in my gaming experience, but I typically find it's easier for players to game the system than DM's.

How about show percentage instead. That way it would be 5% and it could range from "5HP to 500HP" from the maximum. But other wise I would think the player would need a "tool" to see exact numbers. 

[KotZ]

On 5/5/2019 at 3:53 PM, Waterbrick Down said:

But from a RP perspective, how would a character know the giant death robot only has 5HP remaining? Or what about the scenario where the monster can do 60 points of damage and the hero only has 59 hit points left and decides to take a potion? Maybe I just haven't encountered any bad QM's yet in my gaming experience, but I typically find it's easier for players to game the system than DM's.

True.

On 5/5/2019 at 8:37 PM, samurai-turtle said:

How about show percentage instead. That way it would be 5% and it could range from "5HP to 500HP" from the maximum. But other wise I would think the player would need a "tool" to see exact numbers. 

A Tool to see numbers would work pretty well, if we weren't going to show original numbers.

[Waterbrick Down]

10 hours ago, KotZ said:

True.

A Tool to see numbers would work pretty well, if we weren't going to show original numbers.

D&D 4th edition used the "Bloody" condition to indicate when enemies were below half health, maybe we could look at something similar in addition.

One thing to consider as well, most RPG's have a set bestiary, which means that most players eventually develop a good sense for what the stats of certain monsters are. Because most enemies were unique from quest to quest, perhaps that necessitated the showing of stats since players would never have the advantage of fighting the same monster twice...

[KotZ]

30 minutes ago, Waterbrick Down said:

D&D 4th edition used the "Bloody" condition to indicate when enemies were below half health, maybe we could look at something similar in addition.

One thing to consider as well, most RPG's have a set bestiary, which means that most players eventually develop a good sense for what the stats of certain monsters are. Because most enemies were unique from quest to quest, perhaps that necessitated the showing of stats since players would never have the advantage of fighting the same monster twice...

If I'm not mistaken there was a Heroica 1.0 index of previous enemies. I guess the problem is because there were so many different quests with so many different enemies, not to mention the leveling up.

[The Legonater]

7 hours ago, KotZ said:

If I'm not mistaken there was a Heroica 1.0 index of previous enemies. I guess the problem is because there were so many different quests with so many different enemies, not to mention the leveling up.

The problem was the bestiary was never really updated, and every QM liked creating their own races and cultures (fingers pointed at myself, too ). Apart from broadening an already wide array of creatures, this meant that some established races never really got the development that they deserved. 

With such a wide array of types of figures that can be made, this is sort of inevitable. That said, I think if we put a great emphasis on deepening our world rather than expanding it this time, we could have some cool results. A 'new race' doesn't necessarily have to be 'new' as much as it can be an offshoot of what we already have, thereby deepening the lore of the original race. 

[Kintobor]

11 hours ago, Waterbrick Down said:

One thing to consider as well, most RPG's have a set bestiary, which means that most players eventually develop a good sense for what the stats of certain monsters are. Because most enemies were unique from quest to quest, perhaps that necessitated the showing of stats since players would never have the advantage of fighting the same monster twice...

That gets an add-on at least once every three years. 

I'm all for a roster of enemies to pick and choose from, but we should allow wiggle room for creativity in enemy designs. Strike teams from an alien army might have different gear and abilities than the standard soldier found in the bestiary.