I feel like Eurobricks is something of an old boys club

[ArneNielsen]

Well, now that this thread is bumped, I will add a few words of my own.

When I build MOCs, I dont use my brain - I just sit down with the bricks, and my hands do the thinking. I too have a job sitting in front of computers and using my brain, so it is really relaxing for me to shortcut my brain and just let my hands work.

I have also published a lot of poetry on the web. A few times I got a comment or two, but most of the times nada. Thats OK, because I dont post to get recognition, I post because I want to share - if just a single person likes a poem I wrote, my job is done well, even if that person never commented on it at all.

Same with the few MOCs I posted pictures of here - its just to share, not to get likes or comments.

I was active on Lugnet back from 2001, so I am one of the old farts - not rich though, I just put what little extra money I have into LEGO - I dont smoke, I dont drink alcohol or use weed, I dont go to cinemas, I dont go to restaurants - all extra money is solely used on toys (LEGO, Megabloks, Playmobil - I am no purist).

But my love for LEGO is the love of being creative with my hands - I love to feel the bricks, I love to hear the "click" when they snap together, I love the smell when I open a brand new bag - its all physical.

 

[Masked Mini]

4 hours ago, ArneNielsen said:

 

Well said Arnie, I'm right there with you.
I post only because I want help or because I worked out something neat and want to share it. It's cool people came out of the woodwork to help me with my ship build, but if they had not I'd still be building my little brigantine or w/e it will turn into. Create for your own soul, share with no expectations.

I will give the OP this: I've been lurking for awhile now and am guilty of not posting OC or commenting on stuff. I have seen probably 90% of posts in Castle, Pirates, CMF threads and more than a few of the frontpage posts in other categories. I just wasn't contributing beyond viewcount. Okay, selfish of me. Easy fix, I want this site to survive so I started posting more content. And commenting my opinions instead of thinking them and moving on. I can still be more involved and there are large sections of the site I don't step foot in. That may change as my interests within Lego shift to other themes.

I look at LDD models the same as I look at brick models. What's cool? What would I do differently? How can I adapt, steal or copy X element of the build to what I'm doing myself.
There is no judgement of the creators bank account involved. I can currently afford a lot of brick. Just 3 years ago there was no way I could buy in a year what I buy in a month now. I have not forgotten what it was like to be the proverbial kid staring through the toy shop window at stuff I'd never get.

One of the biggest wow moments I've had on this site is the guy that makes the Industrial sites (in LDD)! I'm not even into city themes at all but man... WOW! His models make me want to have an industrial park in brick. It's right up there for me with the guys building the huge realistic Frigates and Ships of the Line (which I am already into).
And you know what? I haven't commented on any of them. Usually the topic is old and I don't want to necro it, or people have taken the words out of my mouth already. But okay I can change, it's not a huge sacrifice to let other builders know they had an impact on me. Even if 15 people have just commented the same "WOW!".

Just my two bricks.

Edited July 24, 2019 by Masked Mini

[knotian]

Might as well jump in - I don't want to see any digital work that has not been built, or is being built. I'd be in favor of a " Art " forum for all those projects that don't get built. Before the explosion takes place, I have nothing against digital art that is not being built, just that it be separated. In my own case I have drawn objects that I convert to .obj files for work in blender and terragen, and in those cases have some impossible to build structures.

[Roadmonkeytj]

14 minutes ago, knotian said:

 and in those cases have some impossible to build structures.

So if its built digitally with all proper connections so it could be built in brick once those were available your uninterested?  Is your general opinion of digital that since you can in theory build the impossible that the user does?

Im not wanting to fight just merely understand the line of though you have on the subject.

I ask because I have recived one of @ProvenceTristram files with the intention to build it myself.  I can say this ... Even in the train forum where we all want to hold our toys any play with them ... I have thoroughly enjoyed all of his Digital Trains.  The attention to detail he builds in is fantastic.  I can tell you after seeing it personally there is nothing in his designs that prevent them from being built.  I feel the fourm would have missed a gem had he not shared any of them. 

So are you sugesting a seperate forum that is a mirror of the current forum subtopics that is strictly digital?

[Littleworlds]

Ah, well. This is a tricky situation. Firstly, I would say that there are indeed ways to get lego to affordable prices. Often sets are quite substantially reduced and car boot sales or ebay can be even cheaper. You might not have much influence on what you get, but that can boost creativity. So... Its not impossible to get genuine lego for cheap.

Secondly, renders need just as much careful lighting and working on the angles etc, as high quality photos and the really well made ones are simply beautiful. It is a skill to aquire to make your build look good and a bit of a rocky process probably, but attainable.

Both, well made digital and real-life pictures deserve respect and attention. Though, a brick-build 50,000 piece set is perceived as more spectacular and noteworthy, than the same thing as a render. I guess its part of human nature to tend towards superlatives in this regard. We can like it or not, but we can't change it. Its not an ideal world, we live in.

What can be changed is the presentation though. Digital models can be featured more frequently and tne builders can add up their game when it comes to presentation. 

Another angle on the issue is: does it have to be a big, impressive build? I find smaller builds usually much more creative than big ones. So much has to be cleverly approximated, where on a big model often just uses a ton of greebling, without being much inventive at all. Small models are about catching the essence of an object (or place or character) and often leave me with astonishment which clever solutions the builder has come up with. So, if you can't compete with funds, maybe you just change the playing field.

[Peppermint_M]

On 7/24/2019 at 3:26 PM, Roadmonkeytj said:

Is your general opinion of digital that since you can in theory build the impossible that the user does?

It looks like knotian is saying that his creations in digital would not work in physical brick. Not digital builds in general.

[knotian]

Peppermint and road monkey

Yes - Like flying buttresses, long suspension bridges, inverse slopes, etc etc. They may all be correct with connectivity, no collisions, instructions, etc, but when you add in physics they will not build. Also I prefer seeing that someone has built a MOC, not just drawn one.

And, yes, a digital art forum would be great so that people can showcase their designs.

[ks6349]

I am old, but I am not rich. I still buy Lego now because Lego has brought me back a lot of memories of my childhood, those memories are invaluable, Lego connects time, it connects the past and the presence, at least it's my feeling. I was not growing up in a rich family, my father was only a factory worker, even that, my mum bought me a lot of Lego sets because she loves me. She built Lego with me. Now she passed away for many years, I am playing Lego alone, Lego keeps reminding me that I owe her a lot, too much, that I cannot pay back

[dtomsen]

My personal take as a mostly digital designer with a huge number of fully realized physcial models ?

I have been using digital design tools building physical models ever since I came out of my very long dark age in 2010.

After some years using this work process I’ve gotten to a place where I’m extremely confident what works in the digital realm also works in our physical realm and pretty much solid at that. And vice-versa. 

For me, high quality renders work better than photos. I’m good at digital editing and lousy at photography, so the former gives much more control over the final presentation, usually with much better looking results. 

Other advantages for me are an easy road to making professional looking building instructions (after testing that the models work in real life) and a much faster way to show lots of high quality pictures of the models at different angles without the labour-intensive work of arranging the models, backgrounds, lights and equipment beforehand. And those photos still needing editing afterwards.

In addition, I can design any kind and size of digital models without a large or varied collection of physical bricks. However, I do only use elements and colours which do exist, new or old. And use legal building tchniques...usually ?

So presentation is the difference with my work and not the actual models themselves whether build digitally or build with real bricks.

That is why I’m a bit sadden by the not so uncommon elevation of photos of actual models over high quality renders of actual models.

Case in point, what is the difference really between these photos of an actual model done by me other than the presentaion?

Photo 2013:

High quality render 2019:

Edited July 26, 2019 by dtomsen

[Mister Phes]

3 hours ago, knotian said:

And, yes, a digital art forum would be great so that people can showcase their designs.

There's already one here but aside from this Finding Dory creation there are almost no MOCs in there.

Update!  Just found another MOC in there.

[Retro]

44 minutes ago, dtomsen said:

Case in point, what is the difference really between these photos of an actual model done by me?

Photo 2013:

High quality render 2019:

I will try to answer this. I will preface my thoughts by saying that both your photographs are lovely and this discussion is all just a matter of opinion!

There is a big difference between your photographs in as much as the wagon in the 'real' image had to come from somewhere, whereas the computer image just came from a computer (using your technical skill). In the same way, I would rather see a photograph of a real flower that you fed and watered than a computer generated photo of a flower produced by Lucasfilm (although I love Star Wars).

To me, Lego is a hobby of using bricks to see what you can build. One of the most fun things my son and I did recently was taking part in helping Fairy Bricks to build a massive mosaic at the Brick Féile. Everyone got a key plan, a base plate and a basket of the right coloured bricks, and then you filled in your base plate to contribute to the final picture. Just the fun of everyone getting a different pattern to do, comparing what your neighbour was doing, and so on. The feel of the purple bricks. (And yes, I know a computer was involved in the planning!)

Conversely, some large Lego models you see online that have been planned on a computer then assembled from the 1000s of pieces ordered online leave me a bit cold because it's almost an industrial process. It's like seeing a new Toyota Corolla. It's a brilliant piece of engineering, but I don't feel the need to comment on it because I know that Toyota have spend countless man hours ruthlessly assembling it.

Going back to the photographs, it makes me think of the difference between Jack Vettriano and Edward Hopper. Their style is superficially similar but Hopper is the greater artist because his paintings make me want to think and consider. In the same way I prefer your 'real' photograph because it makes me wonder where you got the lovely blue bricks, what country was it taken in, how beautiful the blue is...

This is probably not logically consistent, but it's the way I feel.

[KotZ]

21 minutes ago, Mister Phes said:

There's already one here but aside from this Finding Dory creation there are almost no MOCs in there.

Update!  Just found another MOC in there.

I think the reason there are few MOCs there is because they probably gain more traction in the subforums that would fit the MOCs respective themes. I wouldn't post a Brethren of the Brick Seas MOC in the LDD subforum, and I wouldn't put a generic castle in there as well. Just my opinion.

[Mister Phes]

6 minutes ago, KotZ said:

I think the reason there are few MOCs there is because they probably gain more traction in the subforums that would fit the MOCs respective themes.

Yes, this is probably the reason why, however there is already a digital artwork forum available for those who wish to use it.

But maybe the purpose of the  LEGO Digital Designer and other digital tools forum isn't immediately obvious. It has rather long name for a forum and has a particular bias towards LEGO Digital Designer.

6 minutes ago, KotZ said:

I wouldn't post a Brethren of the Brick Seas MOC in the LDD subforum, and I wouldn't put a generic castle in there as well. Just my opinion.

Neither would I.  Personally, I prefer to find MOCs in their theme forum, rather than a Special Interest forum.

[dtomsen]

1 hour ago, Retro said:

I will try to answer this. I will preface my thoughts by saying that both your photographs are lovely and this discussion is all just a matter of opinion!

There is a big difference between your photographs in as much as the wagon in the 'real' image had to come from somewhere, whereas the computer image just came from a computer (using your technical skill). In the same way, I would rather see a photograph of a real flower that you fed and watered than a computer generated photo of a flower produced by Lucasfilm (although I love Star Wars).

To me, Lego is a hobby of using bricks to see what you can build. One of the most fun things my son and I did recently was taking part in helping Fairy Bricks to build a massive mosaic at the Brick Féile. Everyone got a key plan, a base plate and a basket of the right coloured bricks, and then you filled in your base plate to contribute to the final picture. Just the fun of everyone getting a different pattern to do, comparing what your neighbour was doing, and so on. The feel of the purple bricks. (And yes, I know a computer was involved in the planning!)

Conversely, some large Lego models you see online that have been planned on a computer then assembled from the 1000s of pieces ordered online leave me a bit cold because it's almost an industrial process. It's like seeing a new Toyota Corolla. It's a brilliant piece of engineering, but I don't feel the need to comment on it because I know that Toyota have spend countless man hours ruthlessly assembling it.

Going back to the photographs, it makes me think of the difference between Jack Vettriano and Edward Hopper. Their style is superficially similar but Hopper is the greater artist because his paintings make me want to think and consider. In the same way I prefer your 'real' photograph because it makes me wonder where you got the lovely blue bricks, what country was it taken in, how beautiful the blue is...

This is probably not logically consistent, but it's the way I feel.

Thanks for putting those insightful opinions forward ?

I still think that both photos and renders are only representations of the real work, the actual physical models themselves. And only those give me that tactile feeling you are talking about. Maybe that is the most important purpose for events and exhibitions. To see models up close or as close as possible.

For me designing is the creative process whether digital or physical and the actual building of the model just assembly as you phrased it bluntly but correctly. This is probably why I seldom like to build offical LEGO models and very much prefer to make my own models - either from imagination or from real life.

i also like to see MOCs from other people in whatever presentation fits the best online but nothing truly compares to see (and feel) models up close personally in real life ?

Edited July 26, 2019 by dtomsen

[dtomsen]

I see a lot of similarities between this discussion of photos versus renders and those of photos versus paintings which make me think of the famous painting of.a pipe by René Magritte titled “Ceci n’est pas une pipe” (This is not a pipe) ?

[VBBN]

I remember we went through a phase once where floods of digital poorly built CCBS MOCs were flooding the action figure forum, that was enough to make anyone boycott digital builds 

I like digital designs. Every form of MOCing has things that make it unique- some people keep it to a small scale, like an alternate build for a set, and it’s fascinating to see what they can do with such constraints. Others can afford mass quantities of bricks, and it’s truly impressive to see so many pieces together. Digitally building is equally as interesting, because you aren’t limited to only the pieces you have in your collection, and if you go outside of the Lego color palette that already exists, digital builds can be a great “what if” scenario. I seriously need to learn how to render though, so I don’t have crappy LDD screenshots.

Point is, every style of MOCing is different, digital included, and I think the lack of responses is just because of how the LEGO community is now with MOCs in general, as many have said. But, we all do our part. As a digital MOCist, you are keeping that community alive. Personally I try to always be inclusive of digital MOCs in contests when applicable or give opportunities to such MOCists, and I’ve been trying some digital work myself behind the scenes. Keep doing what you do, and don’t get discouraged from a lack of comments- your biggest critic is yourself, and you should do what makes you happy. But definitely do not let that lack of comments stop you from sharing your work here, we love to have it.

 

[syclone]

19 hours ago, Mister Phes said:

There's already one here but aside from this Finding Dory creation there are almost no MOCs in there.

Update!  Just found another MOC in there.

That subforum is mainly for questions/topics about digital tools even though you could theorically post a MOC there. From Section rules:

Quote

• Post a MOC in this section
  As general rule, a MOC should be posted in the respective Theme section (e.g: a MOC representing a little castle should be in "LEGO Historic Themes" section).
  A MOC can be posted in the Digital Design forum if shows some interesting digital building techniques or similar. If so, please share the digital file(s) (.lxf, .mpd, .ldr, .l3b, ...)

Personally I enjoy making LDD MOCs as it allows me to use any part and test how "legal" the connection is, but I mainly use it as a method of instructions to share my creation. As a Technic fan, there is 1000 things that could not end up working in real life if a model is 100% digital - so physical building is always required for testing. Even so, never have I depreciated a MOC if it were digital only - specially studded builds. Now as regards to the OP, I do fell like the responses on this forum have become more rare - there are tons of threads with 1-2 responses.

[Mister Phes]

6 minutes ago, syclone said:

That subforum is mainly for questions/topics about digital tools even though you could theorically post a MOC there. From Section rules:

Yes, this is correct as you've rightly pointed out, but perhaps I've misinterpreted Knotian's suggestion of what a "Digital Arts Forum" is.

He perhaps means a gallery rather than information resource.