Technic 2020 Set Discussion

[1gor]

11 minutes ago, allanp said:

If these rumours are true I would be surprised if it didn't have a "dumb" battery box.

and not only one if you want to have full remote control...

(question is only where to put it...since it is not small enough...and backhoe with Xerion Tires should be in 1:13.5 scale...)

Edited November 25, 2019 by I_Igor

[Cumulonimbus]

28 minutes ago, I_Igor said:

and not only one if you want to have full remote control...

(question is only where to put it...since it is not small enough...and backhoe with Xerion Tires should be in 1:13.5 scale...)

I really hope this one is NOT a remote control set. A pump which is driven by a motor to keep the pneumatic system pressurized I see as an advantage, but I want to control the functions myself via levers and knobs. It would also help to the keep the cost in the not-ludicrous range.

Space-wise, I imagine that the rear of a pneumatic backhoe will be pretty packed with valves and tubes, but in the engine bay I think there could be enough room for a more compact (non-RC) battery box, one motor and a pump. This would also help balancing the vehicle when it's using the back implement. The 8862 had a boat weight in the front to keep it stable.

[1gor]

1 hour ago, Cumulonimbus said:

I really hope this one is NOT a remote control set. A pump which is driven by a motor to keep the pneumatic system pressurized I see as an advantage, but I want to control the functions myself via levers and knobs. It would also help to the keep the cost in the not-ludicrous range.

Space-wise, I imagine that the rear of a pneumatic backhoe will be pretty packed with valves and tubes, but in the engine bay I think there could be enough room for a more compact (non-RC) battery box, one motor and a pump. This would also help balancing the vehicle when it's using the back implement. The 8862 had a boat weight in the front to keep it stable.

you have some reasonable thinking, and IMHO it is always a big complication if you need more than 4 RC functions (not to say that I'm now optimizing my MOCs to have "acceptable RC compromise"; if I remember correctly only 8043 set have 2 x 3 RC functions...to have all manual like 8455, you do not need such size, so it could (probably) be done with Unimog Tires.

Regards

Edited November 25, 2019 by I_Igor
Mistyped

[allanp]

46 minutes ago, I_Igor said:

and not only one if you want to have full remote control...

(question is only where to put it...since it is not small enough...and backhoe with Xerion Tires should be in 1:13.5 scale...)

A full remote control backhoe? You would need at least 3 smart hubs and at least 9 motors for the basic functions (Drive, steer, stabilisers, front bucket raise/lower, front bucket tip, rear arm swivel, rear arm raise lower, rear arm bend, rear bucket). Add pneumatics (motor compressor) opening front bucket, rear side shift and telescopic rear boom and we're up to 13 motors. I can't see a flagship backhoe sold by Lego ever being fully RC, unless sets reach the $1000 mark. 

The absolute best this rumoured backhoe could be (this is not my expectation BTW) would have as follows:

JCB 3CX, Single motor powered by "dumb" battery box, gearbox driving a 4 wheel drive train (with 42099 reduction hubs) with 4 forward and 4 reverse gears (like the real one, hog steering + working steering wheel like the barcode truck, not all motorised driven models have to be RC, just gear it down so it drives slowly) and output for pneumatic compressor with multiple pumps, and a full compliment of pneumatic functions (all the basics plus rear side shift, telescopic boom and opening front bucket. I've built a version of that, It was great and the gears were shifted sequentially via a stick behind the steering wheel on the dash board but with the gearbox I couldn't fit the battery box anywhere! I'm sure it's possible after a few more iterations but I don't expect all that.

My actual expectation (based on the rumours) is a 4CX style backhoe (4 equally sized large wheels), possibly with different steering modes, 4 wheel drive via 3 of the new diffs found in the top gear car connected to fake engine but no gearbox, single motor to drive the pump (hopefully multiple pumps this time, because just one is never enough!) and a full compliment of pneumatic functions. Very complex pneumatically but I don't expect this set will have many gears in it. Without any gearbox or RC, there is only a simple 4 wheel drive train and possibly the steering that require any gears. A back hoe is such a complex machine with a really odd shape for fitting in mechanics that it's really a very difficult thing to get right. Anything more than my (I think realistic) expectations would be a pleasant, and impressive surprise.

Edited November 25, 2019 by allanp

[AVCampos]

6 minutes ago, Cumulonimbus said:

a more compact (non-RC) battery box

The "dumb" Control+ battery box has the same shape as the "smart" hub in the 42099, 42100 and 42109.

[allanp]

2 minutes ago, AVCampos said:

The "dumb" Control+ battery box has the same shape as the "smart" hub in the 42099, 42100 and 42109.

That kinda makes sense, as you would want to have 6 AA batteries as opposed to 6 AAA which wouldn't last long, and the PF battery box is about the same size as the smart hub. Makes me wonder how they fit all the smart electronics in there.

Edited November 25, 2019 by allanp

[Cumulonimbus]

5 minutes ago, AVCampos said:

The "dumb" Control+ battery box has the same shape as the "smart" hub in the 42099, 42100 and 42109.

Good point, I didn't realize this. Somehow I hoped/expected a BB with less features to be smaller. In that case I think the BB might be part of the load bearing chassis, as it was in the 42053 after PF was added.

[1gor]

15 minutes ago, allanp said:

A full remote control backhoe? You would need at least 3 smart hubs and at least 9 motors for the basic functions (Drive, steer, stabilisers, front bucket raise/lower, front bucket tip, rear arm swivel, rear arm raise lower, rear arm bend, rear bucket). Add pneumatics (motor compressor) opening front bucket, rear side shift and telescopic rear boom and we're up to 13 motors. I can't see a flagship backhoe sold by Lego ever being fully RC, unless sets reach the $1000 mark. 

I did not expect fully remote, but I have just mentioned that it would have more that one for that...

16 minutes ago, allanp said:

The absolute best this rumoured backhoe could be (this is not my expectation BTW) would have as follows:

JCB 3CX, Single motor powered by "dumb" battery box, gearbox driving a 4 wheel drive train (with 42099 reduction hubs) with 4 forward and 4 reverse gears (like the real one, hog steering + working steering wheel like the barcode truck, not all motorised driven models have to be RC, just gear it down so it drives slowly) and output for pneumatic compressor with multiple pumps, and a full compliment of pneumatic functions (all the basics plus rear side shift, telescopic boom and opening front bucket. I've built a version of that, It was great and the gears were shifted sequentially via a stick behind the steering wheel on the dash board but with the gearbox I couldn't fit the battery box anywhere! I'm sure it's possible after a few more iterations but I don't expect all that.

 

I would also welcome another Tractor tire size, but I doubt we will got any other than 107 x 44; my hopes were on this years Xerion, but we know how it ended...

18 minutes ago, allanp said:

My actual expectation (based on the rumours) is a 4CX style backhoe (4 equally sized large wheels), possibly with different steering modes, 4 wheel drive via 3 of the new diffs found in the top gear car connected to fake engine but no gearbox, single motor to drive the pump (hopefully multiple pumps this time, because just one is never enough!) and a full compliment of pneumatic functions. Very complex pneumatically but I don't expect this set will have many gears in it. Without any gearbox or RC, there is only a simple 4 wheel drive train and possibly the steering that require any gears. A back hoe is such a complex machine with a really odd shape for fitting in mechanics that it's really a very difficult thing to get right. Anything more than my (I think realistic) expectations would be a pleasant, and impressive surprise.

that is most plausible, but costs have final word... and to have 4 cylinder inline fake engine (as you mentioned) like one from 8110 set...Bigger pneumatics (from 42043 set) could do the job...let's be (hope pleasantly) surprised 

[allanp]

29 minutes ago, I_Igor said:

I did not expect fully remote, but I have just mentioned that it would have more that one for that...

I would also welcome another Tractor tire size, but I doubt we will got any other than 107 x 44; my hopes were on this years Xerion, but we know how it ended...

that is most plausible, but costs have final word... and to have 4 cylinder inline fake engine (as you mentioned) like one from 8110 set...Bigger pneumatics (from 42043 set) could do the job...let's be (hope pleasantly) surprised 

Yup, would be nice to have the 3CX style with 81mm tractor tyres. That version of a backhoe I feel is the more "iconic" version and we would get a welcomed new part, but on the other hand the 4CX version has different steering modes, meaning more interesting mechanics. Either way has their pros. If it has a fake engine I do hope it's the proper engine pieces and not the upside down camshaft only engine!

I also wonder about possible new parts. Many of the new parts I would liked to have seen in a backhoe (such as the bigger pneumatics, tractor tyres, 42099 reduction gear hubs, new valves from 42080) have recently been released, and that is fantastic, but what is now left for this rumoured backhoe? Perhaps new large front bucket that is split so it opens like 42100, perhaps new rear bucket, perhaps a more efficient motor pump. Perhaps even bigger pneumatic so it can do a backhoes party piece:

Sure would look cool in the TV advert with another one driving/rolling under it 

But like you say, lets be (hopefully pleasantly) surprised 

Edited November 25, 2019 by allanp

[1gor]

57 minutes ago, allanp said:

Yup, would be nice to have the 3CX style with 81mm tractor tyres. That version of a backhoe I feel is the more "iconic" version and we would get a welcomed new part, but on the other hand the 4CX version has different steering modes, meaning more interesting mechanics. Either way has their pros. If it has a fake engine I do hope it's the proper engine pieces and not the upside down camshaft only engine!

I also wonder about possible new parts. Many of the new parts I would liked to have seen in a backhoe (such as the bigger pneumatics, tractor tyres, if motorised drive then 42099 reduction gear hubs, new valves from 42080) have recently been released, and that is fantastic, but what is now left for this rumoured backhoe? Perhaps new large front bucket that is split so it opens like 42100, perhaps new rear bucket, perhaps a more efficient motor pump. Perhaps even bigger pneumatic so it can do a backhoes party piece:

 

Sure would look cool in the TV advert with another one driving/rolling under it 

But like you say, lets be (hopefully pleasantly) surprised 

81.6 or even 94.8 tractor tires would be nice, but I think that it would use (only) Xerion tires (or CLAAS tires); in 1:13.5 scale it could use bucket with same dimensions as in Volvo 42030 and 42081 (13.5 scale based on tires because real 4CX has 16.9R28 tires that have approximately 1422mm diameter, and overall bucket max width is 2450mm)

If it would be manual version - it could be done with existing parts; we have 3 different frames for stiffness and only question is if there is cheaper to use 3 new differential from 42109 set (which gives bigger reduction 12-28 than ordinary differential 20-28) or is it cheaper to use solution like on 8110 set. I had a plan to make full manual 4cx wastemaster based on Unimog tires, but have not enough pneumatics, so project is postponed...

Edited November 25, 2019 by I_Igor

[suffocation]

1 hour ago, allanp said:

A full remote control backhoe? You would need at least 3 smart hubs and at least 9 motors for the basic functions (Drive, steer, stabilisers, front bucket raise/lower, front bucket tip, rear arm swivel, rear arm raise lower, rear arm bend, rear bucket).

Interestingly, three motors are quite enough for 8 fully RC functions controlled two by two. Based on that, some clever designer paid to build bricks can probably squeeze in some more.

Edited November 25, 2019 by suffocation

[allanp]

9 minutes ago, suffocation said:

Interestingly, three motors are quite enough for 8 fully RC functions controlled two by two.

You just gave me an idea. Normally we complain when you have to physically touch the model to switch between sets of RC functions (like 42070), or when we can't control all functions at once (like 8043). But a backhoe gives us a unique opportunity to do it in a way that is entirely realistic, by rotating the drivers seat. With the seat facing forward you control drive, steering, rear stabilisers, front bucket raise lower, front bucket tilt, front bucket open and close. Then with the seat in the rear facing position you can control all of the rear digging arm functions. That might not be entirely realistic but in a real backhoe you physically can't really control the rear digging arm with the seat facing forward!

Edited November 25, 2019 by allanp

[suffocation]

7 minutes ago, allanp said:

by rotating the drivers seat.

You genius

So in essence, you could have the driver's seat linked to a distribution box which, depending on the seat's orientation, powers a different set of functions. With this little trick you could squeeze 16 RC functions out of 3 motors. I suppose that, at a pinch, you could throw in a fourth motor to turn the driver's seat and then the whole model would be entirely RC.

The only issue I see here is the sheer size of the gearbox. If the set had Claas tyres, what would the size of the main body be, more or less?

Edited November 25, 2019 by suffocation

[1gor]

And you can not drive (and steer it) when seat is turned backwards 

@suffocation how to integrate such amounts of functions / parts is IMHO greatest challenge. Perhaps usage of 7 x 11 frames could give enough stiffness and space at the same time

Wheelbase should be approximately 21 stud (real machine has 2200mm), chassis width 23 studs...

Edited November 25, 2019 by I_Igor
Added few dimensions...

[Dylan M]

...Hopes and Dreams Again... 

and in the End it's Still a Dream...

[1gor]

Term speculation would be more adequate. 

[suffocation]

Nothing wrong with speculation if it inspires worthy mocs

[Dylan M]

...hope it will directly inspire the Designer to crossover the lines of limit...

[Timorzelorzworz]

RC-models with smart-hub and smart device are difficult to use gearbox, because the smart device does not know which function is selected. Imagine a simple case, two functions A and B in gearbox with a button A and a button B on the app interface. The app does not really know if the model has indeed function A in the gearbox selected when touching button A. App interfaces are designed that one specific task drives one specific function/motor. Otherwise with gearboxes, each function must perform exactly the same task, independently of which function in the gearbox is selected. 8479 was such a model, but for larger models with many functions and RC, this seems too crazy. I think in future RC-sets, we will see one motor for each function, independently of which model it is.

[AVCampos]

On the contrary, a motor with position encoding and absolute positioning, as is the case with both current Control+ motors, is ideal for that. The app knows what position the selector motor is in, and can change the UI accordingly. The only caveat is that for some reason these motors don't have any external marking denoting their zero position (unlike the PF servo and the SPIKE motors), so the app should need a calibration at startup ("Which functions are selected now? What about now?").

[suffocation]

6 minutes ago, Timorzelorzworz said:

RC-models with smart-hub and smart device are difficult to use gearbox

Not with Brick Controller or BuWizz. No idea about - and, as it stands, no interest in - the Control+ app.

2 minutes ago, AVCampos said:

On the contrary, a motor with position encoding and absolute positioning, as is the case with both current Control+ motors, is ideal for that.

Indeed - but you don't even need that for the selector motor. Gear it down, hook it up to a 90° shifter and rely on your ears. There's a genius Moc by @BrickbyBrickTechnic that does just that.

[Maaboo the Witch]

Just noticed that the sticker on the supercharger of the truck in 42106 reads "V8". That's the funniest thing I've seen in quite a while. 

[AVCampos]

That's the visual version of V8 Engine Noises.

[Jundis]

8 hours ago, allanp said:

That kinda makes sense, as you would want to have 6 AA batteries as opposed to 6 AAA which wouldn't last long, and the PF battery box is about the same size as the smart hub. Makes me wonder how they fit all the smart electronics in there.

I would think the "dumb hub" is easier to integrate into the engine compartment because its only 4 studs wide and not 6/8 studs as the "smart hub".

Also: TLG knows that this already exists, right?^^

[kbalage]

55 minutes ago, Jundis said:

I would think the "dumb hub" is easier to integrate into the engine compartment because its only 4 studs wide and not 6/8 studs as the "smart hub".

The "dumb hub" is a potential future Powered Up hub without Bluetooth control, only to provide power like the PF battery box. I really wish TLG had a proper naming convention for the Powered Up parts before they start the rollout... the AAA hub is simply called "Hub" or "Bluetooth-controlled battery hub". The AA hub is not sold separately so we don't know the official name but usually referred to as "smart hub" in the set descriptions.

Anyway, since 42109 inexplicably comes with the AA hub despite the fact that it only has 2 motors I don't expect any future Technic set to be released with the smaller hub.