Unpopular Opinions about LEGO

[icm]

8 hours ago, MAB said:

Speed Champions has had a mixture of licensed and unlicensed over the years.

There is also some confusion between what is licensed or not. Is a car with a sticker a licensed set when leaving those stickers off produces a decent unlicensed car.

It's hard to take you seriously when you say this. Every single set in the Speed Champions line has had one or more licensed cars in it. Leaving the stickers off doesn't magically make it an unlicensed car, just like leaving the stickers off a Star Wars spaceship doesn't magically make it not a Star Wars spaceship.

• I'll use the same themes you do, leaving off Books and Gear.
  • (Seriously, why count Books? Brickset lists Blocks Magazine under Books, and that is not a Lego set and not produced by Lego and not affiliated with Lego in any way!)
• I'll count CMFs as individual sets, because they're sold and marketed that way, even though that tends to inflate set counts because of their very small piece count.
• I am counting polybags.
• I'm not counting magazine gifts, because those have a very limited distribution (even more limited than polybags).
• I'm not counting combo packs of two or more sets packaged together at a discounted price.
• I am counting the Bricklink Designer Program sets, because those are very close to official short-run boutique sets.
• I'm not counting the Education sets, because those are intended for even less of a general audience than the BDP sets, and they certainly aren't in stores.
• I'm not counting make-and-take models, employee gifts, or anything sent only to influencers.
• I am counting the online Pick-A-Brick model experiment, because that was supposed to be a one-click-order type of thing available to everyone, even though it was highly experimental.
• I'll use bold = licensed, italic = unlicensed. I'll do set counts for model year 2023, because model year 2024 isn't over yet.
• All my information comes from Brickset.
• I'm just doing set counts, not adjusting for set size or imagined set sales volume or anything like that.
• For real-world objects or art pieces that require no licensing because they are in the public domain, I'm counting them as licensed if the source material is a single unique identifiable object or work (like the Colosseum, Notre Dame, the Mona Lisa, or the Great Wave).
  • I'm counting them as unlicensed if they are amalgamations with creative license (such as Skylines) or are not identifiable as a single make and model (such as the Typewriter or the Icons Pickup Truck).

Architecture licensed - 2

Architecture unlicensed - 0

Art licensed - 2

Art unlicensed - 1

Avatar licensed - 5

Brickheadz licensed - 17

Brickheadz unlicensed - 0

Bricklink licensed - 0

Bricklink unlicensed - 5

City unlicensed - 47

Classic unlicensed - 10

CMF licensed - 24

CMF unlicensed - 12

Creator licensed - 1

Creator unlicensed - 22

DC Super Heroes licensed - 6

Disney licensed - 26

Dots licensed - 3

Dots unlicensed - 7

Dreamzzz unlicensed - 12

Duplo licensed - 4

Duplo unlicensed - 17

Friends unlicensed - 40

Gabby's Dollhouse licensed - 4

Harry Potter licensed - 17

Icons licensed - 5

Icons unlicensed - 11

Ideas licensed - 3

Ideas unlicensed - 4

Indiana Jones licensed - 3

Jurassic World licensed - 5

Marvel Super Heroes licensed - 29

Minecraft licensed - 12

Miscellaneous licensed - 1 (the soccer set had licensed likenesses of famous soccer players)

Miscellaneous unlicensed - 18 (this is inflated by VIP add-on packs and Pick-A-Brick online models)

Monkie Kid unlicensed - 10

Ninjago unlicensed - 26

Promotional unlicensed - 14 (there's a lot of room for debate about what to count in this category)

Seasonal unlicensed - 16

Sonic the Hedgehog licensed - 5

Speed Champions licensed - 6

Star Wars licensed - 31

Super Mario licensed - 22

Technic licensed - 14

Technic unlicensed - 4

 

 

Total licensed - 247

Total unlicensed - 276

By my tally, the number of licensed sets that "count" is about 89% of the number of unlicensed sets that "count," for the model year 2023. However, the number of unlicensed sets is inflated by VIP add-on packs, Pick-A-Brick online models, various Promotional VIP rewards, and the Bricklink Designer Program. Without those, the unlicensed total would be about 239, which is about 97% of the licensed total, or essentially identical.

I conclude that of the sets that "really count" (in my opinion), it's very close to a 50-50 split between licensed and unlicensed. (Unadjusted for parts count, product weight, recommended retail price, shelf space, or sales volume.)

Now, as for the question of sales volume or shelf space, licensed vs unlicensed: none of us in the internet peanut gallery know much about sales volume, but I suppose anyone could go to the store and make a careful tally of shelf space. I'm not going to do that!

 

PS - It was Racers, not Speed Champions, that was a mix of licensed and unlicensed. But that's an old theme, not an ongoing theme. Racers content is now split between Speed Champions, City, and Technic.

Edited June 19, 2024 by icm

[Lion King]

MAB, still nope. Books are certainly not counted becuase they are not produced by TLG themselves. Same for BrickLink - those sets proved by Bricklink are not really offical. Athough, it’s nice to have a data you pulled p, I will ignore Books and Bricklink as “sets”. Also, I think Mona Lisa is considered as licened set just like Beatles, the Great Wave, Rolling Stone sets. I will say Art is mixture too.I do understand that Mona Lisa’s medium is bricks but it is stll recognized as Da Vinci’s masterpiece. 

I agree with Danth and jcm. Speed Champions theme is considered as licensed. As of 2024, ,there are no non-licensed sets in that theme. Same way for BrickHeadz. 

Sorry but you are wrong. You mislabel me as “not a fan of modern Lego”. I buy certain licensed sets that I really like, such as dinosaurs, fantasy creatures, cool minifigure accessories. Although you make points, I did say I don’t want entire licensed themes to go away. at  the same I don’t want non-licensed themes to be replaced by licensed ones entirely. I really don’t care about how many sets each theme have.  I still feel that licensed themes are too much but I do NOT want Lego going back into past. I would rather to see 50:50 for themes, not sets. You can disagree as much as you want. 

P.S. you forgot about rumored Wednesday and Fonite  themes. 

 

Jcm, your list sounds about right to me. 

Edited June 19, 2024 by Lion King

[Lion King]

That’s fair about BDP. 

[MAB]

5 hours ago, Lion King said:

MAB, still nope. Books are certainly not counted becuase they are not produced by TLG themselves. Same for BrickLink - those sets proved by Bricklink are not really offical. Athough, it’s nice to have a data you pulled p, I will ignore Books and Bricklink as “sets”. Also, I think Mona Lisa is considered as licened set just like Beatles, the Great Wave, Rolling Stone sets. I will say Art is mixture too.I do understand that Mona Lisa’s medium is bricks but it is stll recognized as Da Vinci’s masterpiece. 

I agree with Danth and jcm. Speed Champions theme is considered as licensed. As of 2024, ,there are no non-licensed sets in that theme. Same way for BrickHeadz. 

Sorry but you are wrong. You mislabel me as “not a fan of modern Lego”. I buy certain licensed sets that I really like, such as dinosaurs, fantasy creatures, cool minifigure accessories. Although you make points, I did say I don’t want entire licensed themes to go away. at  the same I don’t want non-licensed themes to be replaced by licensed ones entirely. I really don’t care about how many sets each theme have.  I still feel that licensed themes are too much but I do NOT want Lego going back into past. I would rather to see 50:50 for themes, not sets. You can disagree as much as you want. 

P.S. you forgot about rumored Wednesday and Fonite  themes. 

 

Jcm, your list sounds about right to me. 

Why do you keep going on about books? I never said they were unlicensed.

 

Out of interest what was the last year LEGO got the balance right (for you )?

 

If you want 50:50 for themes, would you be happy if they labelled City as an emergency (police/fire) theme, a space theme, traffic theme, jungle theme, race cars theme, as these are all different subjects just under one big umbrella. Similarly Ninjago encompasses many subjects and styles of sets, which is why there are so few unlicensed themes. That could easily be split into multiple themes covering architecture, dragons, mechs, techo vehicles. They are very different just loosely held together by the core characters.

And bricklink sets are actually official LEGO sets, as they are sold by LEGO on lego.com. Although as for books, I didn't include them due to the way they were sold, but they are official LEGO.

Edited June 19, 2024 by MAB

[icm]

You included Books in your list of sets on the last page. We disagree that Books count as sets, regardless of license status.

[Yperio_Bricks]

2 minutes ago, icm said:

You included Books in your list of sets on the last page. We disagree that Books count as sets, regardless of license status.

Books were included in the list but not included in the count for neither licensed or unlicensed sets.

[icm]

True.

[MAB]

14 minutes ago, icm said:

You included Books in your list of sets on the last page. We disagree that Books count as sets, regardless of license status.

No, I copied the current list of output from Brickset and highlighted what is licensed and what is unlicensed. 

I find it really quite sad that there is more choice of sets available now than at pretty much any time in the past, both for fans of licensed and unlicensed, yet some people want others to have less choice available to them. If lego cut down on entire licensed themes, removing the few sets available in smaller themes like Wicked, Minions, Zelda, Mario, Sonic, etc it wouldn't mean that there was even more choice for unlicensed fans, just less choice of LEGO for other people.  And fewer people buying LEGO just means less reason to have so many stores. It is lose-lose. I'm a fan of both licensed and unlicensed and yet there are entire themes rom both sides that I never buy. But I think it is good those themes exist as other people like them. If those themes didn't exist, then LEGO wouldn't have a very broad portfolio and chances are they also wouldn't be doing themes that I enjoy even though others don't like them. It would be like stopping people showing licensed MOCs here if someone decides that there are too many already compared to unlicensed.  It wouldn't mean there were any more unlicensed ones to look at if you only like unlicensed MOCs, just less of what other people like to look at. 

[icm]

Sorry, I didn't understand why you had included Books in the list. I agree with what you're saying in the second paragraph.

[MAB]

There is such a fine line between what is licensed and not within some themes.

For example, take these two sets ...

One is unlicensed and one is licensed. Is it really right that if you bought the first then you are a LEGO fan, whereas if you bought the second you are not a LEGO fan and only bought it because of the Ducati license? The same goes for many sets in Technic, they became increasing realistic over the years and became so accurate to real models that it was only a matter of time before they put licensed brand names on them. I imagine both those sets appeal to the same buyer. Even though quite a few Technic sets are strictly licensed they are just as appealing and probably more appealing than very similar models but not accurate to a particular brand that are not licensed. Plus there is the boost that it might bring in people that own that motorbike and they get into LEGO.  But I imagine the main group of customers for that licensed set are already fans of LEGO Technic. If LEGO removed the Ducati decals and the branding from the box, does that suddenly make more choice available?

The same seems to be the case in Speed Champions and similar cars. These are both from 2016.

 

 

Again one is licensed and one isn't. I reckon both appeal to a similar audience. The reason I picked both these is my son has them on his shelf. I knew the Ford was SC but  didn’t think it was licensed but looking again I see the logo on the torso. I fairly regularly see similar 6 wide SC cars in City dioramas at shows without realising they are licensed. But then, they might also be MOCs made to look like real cars. I think this is again natural progression. People that wanted LEGO sports cars wanted them to look more accurate as new parts made more accurate details possible and LEGO have found they sell even better if they look realistic. And people buying LEGO sports cars with a badge on the box are just as much fans of LEGO as people buying LEGO sports cars without a badge on the box, and are probably partly the same group. Although the licensing will have helped draw in more people to make the range even more successful giving fans of LEGO sports cars even more choice. If they suddenly stop doing Speed Champions and remove that theme to change the ratio of licensed to unlicensed it doesn't become better for fans of unlicensed LEGO,  it just gives fans of LEGO sports cars much less choice and they might stop buying LEGO. People that want licensed LEGO cars lose and people that want any LEGO cars also lose.

Edited June 20, 2024 by MAB

[Karalora]

Of course there are people who buy licensed LEGO sets just because they are fans of the licensed IP. Some of these people will go on to discover a love of LEGO building and become LEGO fans. I am one of them. I would not be here, 18 years (and however many thousands of dollars) later, if not for the two ATLA sets from the Nickelodeon partnership. But apparently, some people are so opposed to licenses that they would rather that whole side of the community were shut out.

More likely, if you pick up a licensed set, it's because you're a fan of both LEGO and the licensed IP. Not many people are going to buy merch that they have to put together unless they get enjoyment from the act of putting it together.

[TeriXeri]

As far as licensed vs non licensed, sets like that upcoming Dark Falcon really seems interesting, but still definately is affected by license tax, as no way that looks like a set sized of €180, even with the trend of inflation and the last falcon from 5 years ago(still sold) already being €170 . If it were an icons set or something it would certainly cost less,

Altho even unlicensed Friends ,City and Creator are trending toward the whole 10+ cent piece ratios on many sets (not a metric I use, but LEGO seems to be with how so many 2024 sets seem to be following it of course mostly around 8-12c a pc) , so perhaps Dark Falcon would be something like €150-160 if it had generic figures and no license.

Edited June 20, 2024 by TeriXeri

[icm]

@MAB I agree with most of what you're saying, but I disagree that there's a "fine line" between unlicensed and licensed content in most themes. An unlicensed motorcycle has no license. A licensed motorcycle does. They may be very similar in most regards, but having a license or not is (nearly) binary. It's a categorical variable, not a quantitative variable.

@TeriXeri The Icons vehicles have just as much license tax as the Dark Falcon. Look at the Countach, the Corvette, or the raised price on the Porsche 911. Unlicensed Icons with a similar part count would certainly cost less.

[danth]

You guys have never known someone who collects everything related to their favorite movie/character regardless of what it is?

They have the Spiderman lunchbox but they're not a fan of lunchboxes. They have the Spiderman toothbrush but they're not a fan of toothbrushes. Etc.

I know people who collect Lego Spiderman sets along with all their other Spiderman junk. They aren't a fan of Lego. They don't even open the sets.

And they don't have other Lego sets.

[Murdoch17]

Don't forget all the parts that were created for a licensed theme, that eventually ended up being reused after a time and wouldn't have existed without the theme! Example: Lightsabers (both 4-long bar and hilt) were from 1999 Star Wars and ended up being VERY useful for builders of all genres. Without that theme, we might never have gotten them. Other examples include: Minion heads becoming dome parts on the Orient Express, original Harry Potter hairpieces going all over the place, Sandy Cheeks' (from SpongeBob) helmet being used in Winter Village sets as light posts globes, Indiana Jones' whip and bag, and the list goes on and on!

Edited June 20, 2024 by Murdoch17

[JesseNight]

@MAB You are right about the fine line between licensed and unlicensed, if we take it literally.

I think in most cases when the term is used here, people refer to the licensed intellectual properties based on movies or books. I mean if a train in the 80s had a Shell logo on it, there was no doubt a license involved too, But it wouldn't limit the creative freedom on the general train looks as much as a Star Wars set would on the looks of their models, for example. I think that's where many people draw the line.

[Lion King]

While people wanting to buy licensed IP merch becuase of their favorite movie/music artist/video game, just like crazy fans in Disney’s Hercules? Cool I’m not one of them, really. I just like both non-licensed and licensed themes. I only like Juraisssc World and Harry Potter. I used to like Marvel theme but I only like Captian America character. I like non-licensed themes. But i limit myself from buying sets from both sides.

and don’t forget that Jurasic World theme “borrowed” dinosaur molds from the discount used in-house theme, Dino Attack. I’m sad that Dino Attack was discontinued but I’m happ that Lego still produces more dinosaur molds in Jurassic World. 

Edited June 20, 2024 by Lion King

[Lyichir]

1 hour ago, Lion King said:

While people wanting to buy licensed IP merch becuase of their favorite movie/music artist/video game, just like crazy fans in Disney’s Hercules? Cool I’m not one of them, really. I just like both non-licensed and licensed themes. I only like Juraisssc World and Harry Potter. I used to like Marvel theme but I only like Captian America character. I like non-licensed themes. But i limit myself from buying sets from both sides.

and don’t forget that Jurasic World theme “borrowed” dinosaur molds from the discount used in-house theme, Dino Attack. I’m sad that Dino Attack was discontinued but I’m happ that Lego still produces more dinosaur molds in Jurassic World. 

Small correction—the older dinosaur molds used in the Jurassic World theme came from the "Dino" theme from 2012, not to be confused with the older "Dino Attack" theme from 2005 which featured strange mutant dinosaurs that never saw re-use.

[Lion King]

33 minutes ago, Lyichir said:

Small correction—the older dinosaur molds used in the Jurassic World theme came from the "Dino" theme from 2012, not to be confused with the older "Dino Attack" theme from 2005 which featured strange mutant dinosaurs that never saw re-use.

Oops, thank you for correcting!

[MAB]

20 hours ago, icm said:

@MAB I agree with most of what you're saying, but I disagree that there's a "fine line" between unlicensed and licensed content in most themes. An unlicensed motorcycle has no license. A licensed motorcycle does. They may be very similar in most regards, but having a license or not is (nearly) binary. It's a categorical variable, not a quantitative variable.

 

I didn't say MOST, I said SOME.

Sure, whether something is strictly licensed or not is usually clear. If it has the badge or name on the box, it is licensed. But whether someone that is a fan of LEGO cannot enjoy an accurate model of a LEGO motorcycle because it comes with some stickers or printed parts with a brand name on, not so much. That is why I think technic is a mixed theme. I don't think technic builders care so much about whether a badge is there, and if it is, it is usually a sign that the design is reasonably accurate to a real world vehicle, which is often what builders aim for. More that they see technic as a design / build style, rather than seeing the license and making that the reason behind whether they should buy or not.

I say usually clear, as in the past as back as far as the 1950s, there have been licensed brands such as Shell and Esso appearing in LEGO unlicensed sets, even if they weren't mentioned on the box. Occasionally, this still happens in modern times. For example, this is apparently an unlicensed set, ...

 

 

Edited June 21, 2024 by MAB

[icm]

Right, I agree with you on that.

[Lion King]

I am pretty sure a 50:50 ratio is not permanent for Lego after 2024. 

[Murdoch17]

30 minutes ago, Lion King said:

I am pretty sure a 50:50 ratio is not permanent for Lego after 2024. 

I don't know where you get your info, but that is a wild guess on a subject you can't possibly know. Even LEGO probably doesn't know, as entire themes get canceled or changed at the last minute. Sets are generally made 6 months before release - if at that - and have been canceled right upon the cusp of release before. (The Temple of Doom and Technic Osprey say hello!)

Edited June 21, 2024 by Murdoch17

[Lyichir]

2 hours ago, MAB said:

I didn't say MOST, I said SOME.

Sure, whether something is strictly licensed or not is usually clear. If it has the badge or name on the box, it is licensed. But whether someone that is a fan of LEGO cannot enjoy an accurate model of a LEGO motorcycle because it comes with some stickers or printed parts with a brand name on, not so much. That is why I think technic is a mixed theme. I don't think technic builders care so much about whether a badge is there, and if it is, it is usually a sign that the design is reasonably accurate to a real world vehicle, which is often what builders aim for. More that they see technic as a design / build style, rather than seeing the license and making that the reason behind whether they should buy or not.

I say usually clear, as in the past as back as far as the 1950s, there have been licensed brands such as Shell and Esso appearing in LEGO unlicensed sets, even if they weren't mentioned on the box. Occasionally, this still happens in modern times. For example, this is apparently an unlicensed set, ...

Technically speaking, all NASA sets are unlicensed... while usage of NASA logos or imagery is encouraged to go through a review process by the organization to ensure accuracy and compliance with standards for its use, as a government agency NASA is prohibited from profiting from externally-produced merchandise (i.e. receiving licensing fees) or from seeking any sort of exclusivity agreement with external companies.

I understand that from a Lego fan perspective, the distinction between a licensed set and an unlicensed set often has more to do with whether a subject is based on a specific well-known brand than it does with the actual business transactions that take place, but it's still an interesting "edge case" in the question of licensed vs. unlicensed sets.

[Lion King]

1 hour ago, Murdoch17 said:

I don't know where you get your info, but that is a wild guess on a subject you can't possibly know. Even LEGO probably doesn't know, as entire themes get canceled or changed at the last minute. Sets are generally made 6 months before release - if at that - and have been canceled right upon the cusp of release before.

I don’t hae info, honestly. As you said, this is my wild guess. I mean Lego is competely unpredcitable but I just feel that a 50:50 ratio is not really permanent. Lego often changes their plans over time.  I’m just saying the numbers of unlicensed and licensed sets vary annually. But yes, I agree with you on cancelling a theme, licensed or unlicensed.