Unpopular Opinions about LEGO

[Toastie]

19 minutes ago, MAB said:

of what LEGO is famous for - the brick

Hmmm. I am a bit confused. The design of "the brick" was not from LEGO (as there was no TLG back then), as we have all learned the hard way - they stole it. And that happens all day. No reason to freak out.

To me, LEGO is not the brick, it is an idea. And that idea changed over time and certainly should do so, as the environment changes even faster.

"The brick" is naturally a tech thing. No ABS invented yet, no "the brick". It is as if one would judge travel by air before any airplane was invented - and then judge air travel before even planes were invented as "uninteresting" or even not being air travel at all.

Now, the "idea" behind legt god is another thing, as far as I sense it. We can begin to argue who had which technology and what idea - it will remain elusive. I was not there when this started, nor do I know what they drank and smoked back then. Nevertheless, LEGO started as legt god. Wooden ducks or not. There were no such things available to many before LEGO. The "world" was recovering from repeated wars.

But: I personally take the 12V train system as clear indication that there was more than "the brick" or "making money". There was an idea. Which has since then - ever faded.

Into a company ever-changing. Currently, in my recognition, they lose the original idea. Which is - well - just that. So what.

Best,
Thorsten

 

[Aanchir]

28 minutes ago, Toastie said:

To me, LEGO is not the brick, it is an idea. And that idea changed over time and certainly should do so, as the environment changes even faster.

"The brick" is naturally a tech thing. No ABS invented yet, no "the brick". It is as if one would judge travel by air before any airplane was invented - and then judge air travel before even planes were invented as "uninteresting" or even not being air travel at all.

Now, the "idea" behind legt god is another thing, as far as I sense it. We can begin to argue who had which technology and what idea - it will remain elusive. I was not there when this started, nor do I know what they drank and smoked back then. Nevertheless, LEGO started as legt god. Wooden ducks or not. There were no such things available to many before LEGO. The "world" was recovering from repeated wars.

But: I personally take the 12V train system as clear indication that there was more than "the brick" or "making money". There was an idea. Which has since then - ever faded.

Into a company ever-changing. Currently, in my recognition, they lose the original idea. Which is - well - just that. So what.

Honestly, I can't tell what "original idea" you're referring to that you think LEGO originated with and has since lost. I mean, their pre-brick products ranged from the more familiar toy vehicles and pull-along toys like the wooden duck or Disney's Pluto, to toy sewing machines and spring-loaded toy pistols .

In the 70s, LEGO began expanding into hobby sets that were geared more towards use as display pieces than playsets after you finished building them. And by the 80s they were expanding to media products that tied in with various LEGO themes: for example, picture books, comic books, audio dramas, and videocassettes.

I'm not sure what unifying "original idea" you could see in products as varied as that which wouldn't apply just as much to today's LEGO product assortment.

[koalayummies]

1 hour ago, Aanchir said:

 I mean, their pre-brick products ranged from the more familiar toy vehicles and pull-along toys to spring-loaded toy pistols .

[MAB]

10 hours ago, Toastie said:

Hmmm. I am a bit confused. The design of "the brick" was not from LEGO (as there was no TLG back then), as we have all learned the hard way - they stole it. And that happens all day. No reason to freak out.

To me, LEGO is not the brick, it is an idea. And that idea changed over time and certainly should do so, as the environment changes even faster.

"The brick" is naturally a tech thing. No ABS invented yet, no "the brick". It is as if one would judge travel by air before any airplane was invented - and then judge air travel before even planes were invented as "uninteresting" or even not being air travel at all.

Now, the "idea" behind legt god is another thing, as far as I sense it. We can begin to argue who had which technology and what idea - it will remain elusive. I was not there when this started, nor do I know what they drank and smoked back then. Nevertheless, LEGO started as legt god. Wooden ducks or not. There were no such things available to many before LEGO. The "world" was recovering from repeated wars.

But: I personally take the 12V train system as clear indication that there was more than "the brick" or "making money". There was an idea. Which has since then - ever faded.

Into a company ever-changing. Currently, in my recognition, they lose the original idea. Which is - well - just that. So what.

 

By the brick, I mean the plastic items they produce. What do most people think of when they think of lego? Is it plastic bricks, or wooden toys? I think lego is more famous for plastic bricks than wooden toys. Invention has nothing to do with fame. Is Elvis famous for rock and roll? Or is he famous for furniture assembly.

Edited May 12, 2022 by MAB

[Peppermint_M]

9 hours ago, Aanchir said:

I'm not sure what unifying "original idea" you could see in products as varied as that which wouldn't apply just as much to today's LEGO product assortment.

"Play Well" and "Only The Best is Good Enough." Those were to two original ideas. 

I can see how Play Well has been muddied over the years, there is a lot of Buy this to Show on a Shelf/Coffee Table these days, plenty of "Got to catch 'em all" collecting. I am not going to judge those who prefer to collect over the creative building and play I prefer, but it seems modern TLG is quite happy with the thought of people getting one or two (or more) Prestige sets to build and then put out to show. It even somewhat feels like the focus of the company now, with the loss of the original format of Bricks and Pieces making individual parts difficult to obtain and the acquisition of Bricklink merely a brand control exercise.

So I can see how anyone else would think TLG has moved away from the founding ideals.

[MAB]

Defining what 'play' means in terms of lego is hard. Play is something you do for recreational pleasure. For some people, playing is continually taking something apart and rebuilding into something else. For others, building something once and storytelling with it is play. For others, building and then displaying it gives them pleasure. For others, collecting something is their playing. Different people play in different ways.

There are hundreds of different sets produced every year. I think most people should be able to find a product that they can play with, however they like to play.

[Lyichir]

5 hours ago, MAB said:

Defining what 'play' means in terms of lego is hard. Play is something you do for recreational pleasure. For some people, playing is continually taking something apart and rebuilding into something else. For others, building something once and storytelling with it is play. For others, building and then displaying it gives them pleasure. For others, collecting something is their playing. Different people play in different ways.

There are hundreds of different sets produced every year. I think most people should be able to find a product that they can play with, however they like to play.

Yeah. I think for a lot of people (especially busy adults), the "play" they experience with Lego is more akin to how you would "play" with a jigsaw puzzle—putting it together as a one-time activity and then displaying the results afterward. And while I personally prefer the experience of rebuilding or modifying builds, I don't think that type of play is any less valid than the more open-ended play that kids tend to have more time and energy for. If anything, building to display is a good "hook" to get adult fans back into building open-endedly—once a person has rediscovered the joy of building (and their thoughts of what Lego can be used for have been broadened), they're that much more likely to come up with their own ideas of how to put their own spin on either their sets or future models.

[TeriXeri]

I liked the Just Imagine... and A New Toy Every Day slogans, but the visual message from the Rebuild the World maybe put it the best in recent times.

The videos of interviews with kids building their own thing and explaining it is great, also I loved the kids episode LEGO Masters did in NL/Belgium.

The new City Mission sets do have an app that's advertised but unlike Nexo Knight or Hidden Side or Vidiyo it mainly seems to be meant to actually build with the LEGO product instead of just scanning parts of it for a video game element, and beyond that also function like a sort of X-in-1 model somewhat more freely, which is a good thing.

Nothing wrong with building once and displaying, but products like Classic,  3-in-1 and those Mission sets can certainly exist alongside the other sets to give a little extra nudge toward rebuilding/freebuilding.

Edited May 12, 2022 by TeriXeri

[Feuer Zug]

8 hours ago, MAB said:

For some people, playing is continually taking something apart and rebuilding into something else.

This idea seems to be unpopular now days. The number of display pieces seems to be increasing daily (Optimus Prime). I do a fair bit of MOC work and that "Only the best is good enough" statement is one I always seem to be chasing. MOCs are never perfect. A new part or concept means I'm constantly messing with them.

[danth]

Display == dis play? 😁

To be fair though constantly changing up your display can be a form of play. Re-posing, re-positioning, rotating items in and out of the display, or even transforming.

[MAB]

58 minutes ago, TeriXeri said:

Nothing wrong with building once and displaying, but products like Classic,  3-in-1 and those Mission sets can certainly exist alongside the other sets to give a little extra nudge toward rebuilding/freebuilding.

Or you just buy three copies and display all three at once!

 

14 minutes ago, Feuer Zug said:

This idea seems to be unpopular now days. The number of display pieces seems to be increasing daily (Optimus Prime). I do a fair bit of MOC work and that "Only the best is good enough" statement is one I always seem to be chasing. MOCs are never perfect. A new part or concept means I'm constantly messing with them.

No doubt some people will display Optimus Prime but I imagine some people will also enjoy transforming him and playing with him just like if he was a real toy transformer.

[Aanchir]

1 hour ago, TeriXeri said:

Nothing wrong with building once and displaying, but products like Classic,  3-in-1 and those Mission sets can certainly exist alongside the other sets to give a little extra nudge toward rebuilding/freebuilding.

Don't forget Dots! It's HEAVILY marketed towards free-building, as well as mixing and matching parts from multiple sets. Likewise, the BrickHeadz theme, which to some people might seem purely collecting-driven, provides a versatile template that readily inspires builders to create their own characters in that style (and some sets like Go Brick Me or the Bride and Groom include an assortment of parts for individual customization). Even among licensed themes, the Minecraft theme often encourages custom builds and/or layout designs.

And honestly, for all the folks who recognize creative building and play as core facets of the LEGO brand's appeal, I think there are a lot of AFOLs who have an unfortunate tendency to disregard themes like Dots, BrickHeadz, Brick Sketches, and Art (or even some more KFOL-targeted themes like Friends and Super Mario) not for any perceived lack of creative building or play potential, but rather for not being minifigure-focused.

37 minutes ago, danth said:

Display == dis play? 😁

To be fair though constantly changing up your display can be a form of play. Re-posing, re-positioning, rotating items in and out of the display, or even transforming.

Yep! And these days I feel that many adult-targeted, display-oriented sets have features specifically tailored to that sort of thing, perhaps even more so than those from a decade ago — changing the seasonal foliage colors of the Tree House and Bonsai Tree, stripping down the LEGO Art mosaics to create one of the alternate artworks, converting the Optimus Prime and Voltron sets between different modes, changing out the movie-specific details of the Back to the Future DeLorean, operating the mechanical functions of the LEGO Ideas typewriter and piano, removing the finished exterior from the Great Pyramid of Giza, etc.

Besides that, these concerns about people building sets for display and leaving them to collect dust aren't somehow unique to LEGO's newer adult-targeted stuff like the Botanical Collection or Helmet Collection. How much time do you really think owners of the Sopwith Camel or UCS X-Wing spend swooshing them around? How many Tower Bridge owners are driving the little microscale cars across the bridge on a regular basis?

As I mentioned in my previous post, even the Hobby Sets of the 1970s were intended more as something pretty to build and display in a place of pride than something to play with or rebuild into your own creations — particularly since some of them featured STAMPs (STickers Across Multiple Pieces) that kept you from fully disassembling them unless you took a craft knife to them. Sets like those were no more playable than Optimus Prime, Space Shuttle Discovery, or Typewriter.

All in all, it feels a little pointless to quibble about how many display-oriented sets there are today, let alone treat that as a symptom of LEGO "losing their way", when there are HUNDREDS of sets to choose from with designs geared more heavily toward play and/or creative building.

Edited May 12, 2022 by Aanchir

[TeriXeri]

1 hour ago, Aanchir said:

Don't forget Dots! It's HEAVILY marketed towards free-building, as well as mixing and matching parts from multiple sets. Likewise, the BrickHeadz theme, which to some people might seem purely collecting-driven, provides a versatile template that readily inspires builders to create their own characters in that style (and some sets like Go Brick Me or the Bride and Groom include an assortment of parts for individual customization). Even among licensed themes, the Minecraft theme often encourages custom builds and/or layout designs.

True, DOTS certainly stepped up their creative game after the 1st year, it went way beyond just decorating bracelets, boxes and pencil holders, with the letter tiles, creative boxes, or cupcake sets + easier to expand with bulk packs like lots of DOTS 2021 and 2022 variants, 2022 also increased the ratio of square tiles and 2x2 bow tiles for covering larger areas or large letters/numbers.

LEGO also added a DOTS design tool to their website even has the models of some of the sets in 3d as a template.

Go Brick Me was a very cool idea, yet somehow short life span of under a year, Bride and Groom are a nice variation, maybe a bit more specialized but still a cool start point for custom brickheadz.

Edited May 12, 2022 by TeriXeri

[Johnny1360]

2 hours ago, danth said:

Display == dis play? 😁

To be fair though constantly changing up your display can be a form of play. Re-posing, re-positioning, rotating items in and out of the display, or even transforming.

Guilty, that and dusting, lol.

Unpopular opinion; There is no wrong way to play with LEGO.

Edited May 12, 2022 by Johnny1360

[Toastie]

22 hours ago, Aanchir said:

To me

 

23 hours ago, Toastie said:

as far as I sense it

 

23 hours ago, Toastie said:

I personally

I am referring solely to me. It is my very personal view, that I am voicing, nothing else.  

Since I turned 10 50 years ago, I am visiting Billund on a more or less regular schedule - not because I am a LEGO freak, but because we are on family vacation almost every other year on a Danish island close by. Initially with my parents, then with my parents in law, my wife, my family. I was in love with the product for more than 3/4 of my life. And this has changed a bit in the last 1/4.

This place (not Billund, but the "LEGOLAND" located there) is advertising over and over again: Be creative, create, make a change, change, imagine, care ... and leg godt. In nicely colored letters everywhere you look. Which is really nice, as it really has a touch - and touches - and it is done professionally, no doubt. "Create" is the word used the most. Creativity as runner-up. I actually tried to count them. Restrooms included, no joke.

So from that single point observation, repeated tens of times, I came to my very personal take voiced here, in the unpopular opinions thread, without >any< generalization implied.

It thus appears to me that TLG is at least promoting the create idea and implicitly connects that with play well.

@MAB Yes, over time it has occurred to me that every single verb, be it play, create, and everything else, is subject to the interpretation of the 7.753 billion people currently living on planet earth. There seems to be a slight bias "imposed" though, as TLG is - again: in my very personal view - trying to "direct" that interpretation into a certain - well - direction.

This is not about how I/we see it. That is up to us. It is a pure speculation about what they >may< want us to believe; one speculation out of 7.753 billion others. Although I doubt that even only a tiny fraction of these 7.753 billion people know about plastic bricks being somehow important.

Best,
Thorsten

 

Edited May 12, 2022 by Toastie

[Peppermint_M]

I find such joy in creating new things, I appreciate that others enjoy LEGO in different ways (My brother in law is one example, so many sets on display), so I suppose I am trying to convince people to try it for themselves, there is something very satisfying to take the bricks and make something only you can.

Then TLG goes and spoils it all by turning to focus on big fancy sets to show. 

So it goes.

 

[TeriXeri]

2022 City Stuntz challenge sets are €20 , and $35 in USA, that has beaten the 2018 $30 vs €50 2018 Hoth chamber in comparison in most outrageous price difference. . . . . 

What's next, 2028 Millennium Falcon $900 and €1575? , 2030 City Train €200 and $350  

High prices is one thing , but one region getting royally extremely overtaxed for no reason, both directions makes no sense at all anymore when most sets differences are little to none on both very small and large sets.

"License Tax", "Priced for discount" , sorry, that's simply not an excuse for a set being relatively 70%+ more expensive, and City isn't even licensed.

Edited May 13, 2022 by TeriXeri

[MAB]

11 hours ago, Toastie said:

Yes, over time it has occurred to me that every single verb, be it play, create, and everything else, is subject to the interpretation of the 7.753 billion people currently living on planet earth. There seems to be a slight bias "imposed" though, as TLG is - again: in my very personal view - trying to "direct" that interpretation into a certain - well - direction.

Modern interpretation is incredibly important. When those original wooden toys were being painted, did they think in the future kids would sit in front of TV screens immersed in a virtual game against someone on the other side of the world. When creating those first LEGO bricks, that kids (and adults) would be building with virtual copies of them on a computer instead of using the physical bricks. If they stuck with one definition of what play is, they probably wouldn't exist in the same way today. LEGO caters for way more interests now than they did 30 years ago, 60 years ago or 90 years ago.

[Feuer Zug]

16 hours ago, Johnny1360 said:

Unpopular opinion; There is no wrong way to play with LEGO.

I'm with this opinion. I have my preference to playing with LEGO, I will not begrudge others that partake of the hobby, however they play.

4 hours ago, MAB said:

Modern interpretation is incredibly important. When those original wooden toys were being painted, did they think in the future kids would sit in front of TV screens immersed in a virtual game against someone on the other side of the world. When creating those first LEGO bricks, that kids (and adults) would be building with virtual copies of them on a computer instead of using the physical bricks. If they stuck with one definition of what play is, they probably wouldn't exist in the same way today. LEGO caters for way more interests now than they did 30 years ago, 60 years ago or 90 years ago.

Back then, computers didn't even have screens. Heck, Star Trek didn't have computer screens, only lights for readouts. Spock looked into a device to represent such a screen. What we do today is almost magical if we brought it back 50 years. For better or worse, LEGO is trying to live with the times. The old wooden toys have little interest for me, same with LDD and Stud.io. Other people will have their own ways of playing and what they believe is important to them. As long as it doesn't harm others, Brick ON!

[danth]

19 hours ago, Johnny1360 said:

Unpopular opinion; There is no wrong way to play with LEGO.

I agree with that, but with one caveat: if you never MOC, its kind of a giant missed opportunity.

[Toastie]

23 hours ago, Aanchir said:

1970s were intended more as something pretty to build and display in a place of pride than something to play with or rebuild into your own creations

Well, maybe from a today's perspective. I had that set (essentially I still do have it - the pieces that is) - it was a wonderful set to built - and after so time to get a very good number of parts of a) the same color - try that today - and b) of pieces that can be used essentially in every other MOC, where you need red and black parts. And yes, simply because the range of parts was not even close to what we have today.

So I'd rather question your last conclusion above - from my perspective: I am beaming myself back to that time; at that time also similar die-cast models were available. Displaying - at least as far I can tell, I grew up in Northern Germany, so what do I know - has become a matter of "modern" LEGO, where the displaying is catching on a lot more, because these models actually resemble the original to a much higher degree. I never "displayed" (in the modern sense, in a glass cabinet etc. as these models shall not catch on any dust) any of my LEGO models back then other than "parking" them somewhere on a shelf or the floor - for me, it did not make sense, as the degree of abstraction and imagination, along with the availability of very detailed other models - was too much for my peers. Yes, I can do that for my own pleasure, I know. But when I had these plates and pieces in my hands, in black and red - guess "what - just - popped in there?" (No, not Mr. Stay Puft ): A German train. As I was dreaming of 727 and with these pieces came a long way ... OK, with some imagination as well ;) as there was no money at all for getting into the 12V train system. But I could dream of that bolstered by a would be "copy" of 727 in my hands. Which, after some time, simply dissolved into something else.

Again, I am using "me", "my" here. No generalizations at all.

Best,
Thorsten

[TeriXeri]

To me, Playmobil was the Display/Play Toy with cars that were cars, helicopters, boats, pirate ships , etc that were just those, no rebuilding, but it still had the play with the figures able to hold things.

LEGO to me always was the building system toy.

Other toy cars/planes/dolls etc were just a lot cheaper if you wanted a directly pre assembled toy like that, or glued model kits for detailed models you could paint/sticker yourself or small foam airplane with only a few parts like a propellor and then to throw them and they actually worked.

If I wanted to display something 100% of the time I'd buy something else.

However, if people want to build their sets once, and display them for 10, 20, 30, forever years, that's their choice and it's not wrong.

Edited May 13, 2022 by TeriXeri

[Peppermint_M]

On 5/12/2022 at 8:15 PM, Aanchir said:

even the Hobby Sets of the 1970s were intended more as something pretty to build and display in a place of pride than something to play with or rebuild into your own creations

I dunno, the 70s was the era my uncle was a child and first had LEGO sets. I was where he cemented his love of design and building that led to a career in Environmental Engineering and today, with me being an AFOL, he will talk for ages about his MOCs from childhood and it is something he is enjoying immensely with his son (Mah baby cousin is 9 soon!) 

[Darkdragon]

On 5/12/2022 at 2:15 PM, Aanchir said:

even the Hobby Sets of the 1970s were intended more as something pretty to build and display in a place of pride than something to play with or rebuild into your own creations

As a person who actually grew up in this time period, I have to say your assumption is wayyyyyy off here.  For one thing, many people didn't have more than a couple sets and some brick buckets. We had no choice but to rebuild.  PLUS, building actual models (with a knife and glue and paint) was infinitely cheaper, more detailed, and more fun to display.  LEGO was a creative and building toy. This info is coming from my experience as a youth in that time period as well as people that I knew, even the "rich kids" I knew never displayed lego sets in any sort of semi-permanent fashion, that's simply not what the toy was about.

2 hours ago, Toastie said:

So I'd rather question your last conclusion above - from my perspective: I am beaming myself back to that time; at that time also similar die-cast models were available. Displaying - at least as far I can tell, I grew up in Northern Germany, so what do I know - has become a matter of "modern" LEGO, where the displaying is catching on a lot more, because these models actually resemble the original to a much higher degree.

I totally agree!

[TeriXeri]

2 hours ago, Darkdragon said:

This info is coming from my experience as a youth in that time period as well as people that I knew, even the "rich kids" I knew never displayed lego sets in any sort of semi-permanent fashion, that's simply not what the toy was about.

Agreed, I had a friend with a lot of LEGO, and he rebuild most of it all the time, combined it with other toys like marbles to make brick-mazes with slopes etc, it was cool to see.

We also combined our 9V rails to build bigger networks, the 9v crossing piece wasn't released until 1999 so we made an 8 shape with a bridge instead. (I also had older blue and grey rail but that wasn't as easy to transport/construct)

Meanwhile in the same house, the parents were clearly collectors of things, model railroad (not lego), plastic models of 747's , glued jigsaw puzzles at the walls, Disney VHS tapes etc.

I think a few models were on display, I had that too, but majority of parts, especially basic bricks were thrown in the big bins, or roughly sorted if it were Technic/Space related.

Edited May 14, 2022 by TeriXeri