COPPA and Technic Youtube creators

[shadow_elenter]

Youtube is still an excellent platform to post and host your LEGO videos, it's just no longer possible to generate a decent amount of revenue with it.

Most of you don't care about making money or getting well known with your channel, if that's the case for you just set your channel to kiddy friendly and carry on.

Even with the new restrictions youtube will still likely be the broadest reaching platform, so collectively switching over to another platform is not really a solution in terms of views (even if we could t would likely only be a temporary fix).

Revenue is a different story, but youtube is to big of an industry to just move to another platform I'm afraid, especially since this effects only a part of the industry.

My youtube channel has 47.000 subscribers at this moment and I was finally at a point where I could afford myself days off based on the revenue to build MOC's, it appears that time is over.
Channel growth is strongly constricted for me now, (about one third of what it was before) and that means it's going to take forever for existing content creators to get back to the revenue point they were at a month ago.

I'm hoping there's going to be an intermediate solution some time soon, because without the revenue I can't afford the time off and I'll end up producing like 1, maybe 2 MOC video's a year.

We'll just have to see where it goes!

[Zerobricks]

1 minute ago, shadow_elenter said:

I'm hoping there's going to be an intermediate solution some time soon, because without the revenue I can't afford the time off and I'll end up producing like 1, maybe 2 MOC video's a year.

We'll just have to see where it goes!

I have the same issue, building models and abusing them outside in the dirt takes a heavy toll on the parts and I usually barely manage to cover the pieces. Buying new sets just from Youtube revenue for me is out of the question, especially with the current inflated prices.

Hope there will be a third category - general audiences added to the option, as the law seems to support it, at least according to the Youtube lawyer guy.

[MaxBrix]

Also a creator. I'm not too worried. It's considered "kids" if it's Under 13-year-old content. Technic products are almost always rated 13+ years. Technical MOCs are for adults. My viewers are mostly above 30. I think we are safe.

[Toastie]

26 minutes ago, MaxBrix said:

It's considered "kids" if it's Under 13-year-old content.

I was under the impression that it was considered "for kids" when "for kids" stuff appears in the video. And that LEGO stuff is per definition for kids?

Best
Thorsten

[Appie]

Exactly, Lego is for kids, so no matter what type you use or which audience/age you target with your Lego, in the end it is Lego and that means in a lawsuit, you lose.

[MaxBrix]

You tube " How old is a kid? The age of a "kid" in the United States is defined as anyone under the age of 13. However, the age of a kid may be higher in other countries, so consider the factors described above as appropriate given how kid is defined in applicable laws in your country, and consult legal counsel if you have additional questions. "

Google search "coppa age eu" result:

13

 

Most EU countries (including the UK) set this age at 13 (taking the lead from the COPPA rules). But there are exceptions to this; for instance, in Spain, the age is 14 and in The Netherlands, it's 16.

These guidelines are worded to Imply preteen activities and language: Youtube "

According to the FTC’s guidance on COPPA, a video is child directed (which we call “made for kids”) if:

• Children are the primary audience based on the factors described below. 
• Children are not the primary audience, but the video is still directed to children based on the factors below.

When deciding whether or not your channel or video is made for kids, you should consider various factors, including:

• Subject matter of the video (e.g. educational content for preschoolers).
• Whether children are your intended or actual audience for the video.
• Whether the video includes child actors or models.
• Whether the video includes characters, celebrities, or toys that appeal to children, including animated characters or cartoon figures.
• Whether the language of the video is intended for children to understand.
• Whether the video includes activities that appeal to children, such as play-acting, simple songs or games, or early education.
• Whether the video includes songs, stories, or poems for children.
• Any other information you may have to help determine your video’s audience, like empirical evidence of the video’s audience. "

 The 4th line implies that as long as you stay away from Imagery that is marketed to specifically to young children (under 13) you should be fine.

 

Look at your demographics. This is empirical evidence. I show 18-24y 52.5%, 35-25y 25.9%, 0% under 13

 

Edited November 28, 2019 by MaxBrix
forgot a word

[kbalage]

10 minutes ago, Appie said:

Exactly, Lego is for kids, so no matter what type you use or which audience/age you target with your Lego, in the end it is Lego and that means in a lawsuit, you lose.

That's not that simple. If you make a Horror/sex scene with Lego figures that should not be marked for kids under any circumstances, doesn't matter what Google says. Adult cartoons are not for kids either just because they are cartoons. Live streaming a 18+ video game should not be automatically considered kids' content just because it's a video game. I can even imagine a sex toy promotion being marked as "for kids" by their bots because it has the word "toy". Google tried to make the situation black or white but it's impossible to treat the subject this way.

1 hour ago, shadow_elenter said:

Youtube is still an excellent platform to post and host your LEGO videos, it's just no longer possible to generate a decent amount of revenue with it.

Most of you don't care about making money or getting well known with your channel, if that's the case for you just set your channel to kiddy friendly and carry on.

Even with the new restrictions youtube will still likely be the broadest reaching platform, so collectively switching over to another platform is not really a solution in terms of views (even if we could t would likely only be a temporary fix).

We'll see how it unfolds but if the restrictions will be applied as they are defined today then the "for kids" videos will have minimal reach, YouTube will become a video hosting platform nothing more.

7 minutes ago, MaxBrix said:

The 4th line implies that as long as you stay away from Imagery that is marketed to specifically to young children (under 13) you should be fine.

Actually the law (COPPA) and Google are saying different things, and we aren't safe at all until Google retains the rights to mark anything "for kids" and based on their on decision ban anyone or delete their channel. Honestly in this situation the FTC is the good cop, at least they ask people about their opinion and they show some effort to understand what are the potential issues. Google simply choose the worst solution for everyone and tries to push all responsibility on the content creators. 

[MaxBrix]

1 minute ago, kbalage said:

and we aren't safe at all until Google retains the rights to mark anything "for kids" and based on their on decision ban anyone or delete their channel

That is definitely true. Your channel could be deleted for no reason.

I still say if kids don't watch your videos you can't be doing anything wrong and you should not worry about coppa. It's like leaving your house you could be deleted for no reason and all you can do is figure out what rules to follow and what rules to break. I don't see any other choice but to try to do the right thing and keep going.

[Appie]

15 minutes ago, kbalage said:

That's not that simple. If you make a Horror/sex scene with Lego figures that should not be marked for kids under any circumstances, doesn't matter what Google says. Adult cartoons are not for kids either just because they are cartoons. Live streaming a 18+ video game should not be automatically considered kids' content just because it's a video game. I can even imagine a sex toy promotion being marked as "for kids" by their bots because it has the word "toy". Google tried to make the situation black or white but it's impossible to treat the subject this way.

Good point, but the examples with Technic and targetted toy age and his viewers age MaxBrix mentioned, won't hold up in court most likely. About your last sentence: I would hope for the kids the bots would filter out sex before toy The situation isn't black and white for sure, but the fact Google is trying to make it that and it costing us 42k if we mess up, it's better to be on the safe side than sorry. Of course there's the thing of how they want to enforce this law internationally, but if I was a USA citizen? I'd set my channel to for kids and just chill and wait.

 

24 minutes ago, MaxBrix said:

The 4th line implies that as long as you stay away from Imagery that is marketed to specifically to young children (under 13) you should be fine.

Actually the 4th line is exactly the reason everybody is now setting their channel to "for kids", because Lego is

 

24 minutes ago, MaxBrix said:

toys that appeal to children

 

Edited November 28, 2019 by Appie

[MaxBrix]

2 minutes ago, Appie said:

Good point, but the examples with Technic and targetted toy age and his viewers age MaxBrix mentioned, won't hold up in court most likely.

Here is the actual bill https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/47/231

This is what you can't do:

(1) Prohibited conduct

Whoever knowingly and with knowledge of the character of the material, in interstate or foreign commerce by means of the World Wide Web, makes any communication for commercial purposes that is available to any minor and that includes any material that is harmful to minors shall be fined not more than $50,000, imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both.

Don't make content that is harmful to minors and you are fine in court. Who knows about youtube?! The law says nothing about toys.

[Appie]

Then why does Google even include the 4th line and especially the toy part in that 4th line?

And even if it isn't in the law, it is apparently in Google's rules, so I'd still rather play it safe. It not being in the law, doesn't mean Google won't slap you with a ban or closed channel anyway. It wouldn't be the first company that thinks their ToS is above the law (which it never is).

 

[MaxBrix]

Yes, So complying with the law is straight forward but we are guessing when it comes to youtube. My content is not for kids. My viewers are not kids. It's probably best for the Lego community if we try different approaches and see what works. I will cover the "not for kids" route. Lets all report back here about what happens.

[allanp]

33 minutes ago, kbalage said:

That's not that simple. If you make a Horror/sex scene with Lego figures that should not be marked for kids under any circumstances, doesn't matter what Google says. Adult cartoons are not for kids either just because they are cartoons. Live streaming a 18+ video game should not be automatically considered kids' content just because it's a video game. I can even imagine a sex toy promotion being marked as "for kids" by their bots because it has the word "toy". Google tried to make the situation black or white but it's impossible to treat the subject this way.

We'll see how it unfolds but if the restrictions will be applied as they are defined today then the "for kids" videos will have minimal reach, YouTube will become a video hosting platform nothing more.

Actually the law (COPPA) and Google are saying different things, and we aren't safe at all until Google retains the rights to mark anything "for kids" and based on their on decision ban anyone or delete their channel. Honestly in this situation the FTC is the good cop, at least they ask people about their opinion and they show some effort to understand what are the potential issues. Google simply choose the worst solution for everyone and tries to push all responsibility on the content creators. 

You hit the nail right on the head there.

The lines "toys that appeal to children" is a real problem. When I was a child my dad (being awesome!) would bring home videos of some really cool films, like terminator 2 or dusk till dawn. He didn't tell me what the movies were, he just said "you'll like this one son", and I really did. I really loved watching duck till dawn having never seen a trailer or even heard of it as a kid. Those movies appealed to me as a kid. So movies that APPEAL to kids could be literally any big budget movie no matter the age rating. Same thing goes for toys. There are toys like RC hydraulic excavators with CNC machined metal parts (like the Lesu RC hydraulic excavator ) and powerful slingshots and crossbows and so on, that aren't meant for kids but, if we are being honest, they certainly would appeal to most kids that see one. And how many horror movies show some Lego on screen at some point? The line "toys that appeal to children" sounds fine on paper, but I think I've shown that this doesn't make sense in the real world, you know, that place where the things that might be harmful to children actually exist! If parents allow it then their children will always see things not intended for them. But that's not the issue, the issue here is data collection.

At the end of the day, what might be deemed harmful to minors is collecting their data. Fair enough. But no content creator on youtube collects data from minors. It's Google that collects the data so it's Google that should be fined, not the content creators. I'm not sure that the FTC should allow Google to pass the buck onto the innocent. If I crash a car and kill a bunch of people, could I just pass my prison sentence onto the people that posted a video of it on youtube? Of course not! So how can the FTC allow Google, the one actually breaking the law by collecting data, to pass on the fines to content creators?

Edited November 28, 2019 by allanp

[efferman]

A German Brick Youtuber said that if you would follow every line which youtube has posted, everything, incuding Porn, would has to be marked as for kids, because a 12 year old boy is attracted to everything.

The FTC would only make a case if the video is in the whole context for kids and not when a single option is fullfilled.

Edited November 28, 2019 by efferman

[dr_spock]

Appeal to kids or not, aren't your video setting telling Google is ok to collect personal data on the viewer of your video or not?  If the viewer is under 13 and parents not consented, then it's a violation of COPPA?

[efferman]

Just now, dr_spock said:

Appeal to kids or not, aren't your video setting telling Google is ok to collect personal data on the viewer of your video or not?  If the viewer is under 13 and parents not consented, then it's a violation of COPPA?

With this Logic has every Video on youtube to be marked as made for kids because a Kid can watch it.

[Toastie]

I am completely - totally - confused.

I thought it was not because a kid can watch it - it was because a kid can watch it with some - even barely visible - content appealing to kids.

I thought it works like this: Someone gets pissed off - a parent, a lawyer, your dog, cat, or who not. They raise a flag: This video is for kids (regardless of what your intentions were or the contents was, spanning from porn to violence over advanced building for ages +50) because of this, this and that (which has to be decided on in court) >AND< YT was collecting data, all that because >YOU< did not mark it as "for kids" because you did want to make money, talk to old farts only or what not. Now they find out in court that you had a 1x1 black round plate on the table clearly visible, where some adults were doing what they do to ensure survival of the tribe.

I thought that was the problem???

If not then I don't see any problem at all here. Because then I can decide on for kids or not. And not my dog. Well, she does not care at all, but I don't know about the two cats. One is watching me right now. I could swear she tries to scratch coppa into the carpet.

Oh my. Every day, this world is getting a little more confusing to me.

Best
Thorsten

[Lipko]

I marked all my videos as made for kids, and yesterday or so all the comments from all my videos are gone.
Not surprised as it was stated, but it's not 1st of January yet.

Just telling...

[efferman]

When this is your video i can see comments below it. 

 

[kbalage]

3 hours ago, MaxBrix said:

I still say if kids don't watch your videos you can't be doing anything wrong and you should not worry about coppa. 

You don't really know if kids watch your content. YouTube statistics show the age of the accounts' owner, not who's actually watching the video. That was the main problem of the whole $170 million fine story... 

3 hours ago, Appie said:

Good point, but the examples with Technic and targetted toy age and his viewers age MaxBrix mentioned, won't hold up in court most likely.

I recently made a video comparing the 1989 Batmobile and the Tumbler. Both sets are 16+, yet I'm sure kids love them. So shall this video marked as "for kids" or not? There are thousands of examples like this with many subjects and you can't be sure who's right or wrong. As @efferman said, potentially anything can be interesting for a 12 year old.

What I'm saying is that the whole approach is wrong. The original source of the issue - Google collecting data about kids without parental consent. The way I see it there are several more simple solutions:

- Don't sell ads targeting kids, that eliminates the source of the problem. Would surely hurt the revenue of many YouTubers but would still keep all the functionality.
- Only show ads if you are logged in on that device. You need to be at least 13 to have a Google account so the responsibility is on the parents' side in this case.
- Keep the "for kids" switch on the videos but that would trigger a popup asking for parental consent on whatever is needed. If it is accepted, everything goes normally. If it is declined, no data is collected.

 

[dr_spock]

Would marking Technic videos as 18+ content work keeping kids out?  Unless they lied about their age.

 

 

[Zerobricks]

Just now, dr_spock said:

Would marking Technic videos as 18+ content work? 

 

I think 18+ content is demonitized by deafult.

[Lipko]

9 hours ago, efferman said:

When this is your video i can see comments below it. 

 

Interesting, I don't see them. Maybe it's a location dependent thing?

[efferman]

15 minutes ago, Lipko said:

Interesting, I don't see them. Maybe it's a location dependent thing? 

we are both in europe, so i dont think this si the reason.

[kbalage]

@Lipko I also see the comments so it's not location-dependent for sure