Star Trek 2 Mafia - Day Six

Bob · March 7, 2020

Day Six - The Best of Both Worlds

"So, is that it? Have we won? Is it over? Where's my one thousand space bucks?" Troi asked.

"I thought we settled on an ice tray." Wesley replied.

"Not quite! In case you couldn't tell by the topic, you've failed again. Picard was not my last scum."

The remaining three eyed each ofher suspiciously.

---

With three players, a majority of two is required to lynch. 48 hours remain in the day.
With three players, a majority of two is required to extend the day an extra 24 hours for a maximum of 72 hours.

Players (3):

Commander William T. Riker - Darkdragon

Lieutenant Commander Deanna Troi - Hinckley

Ensign Wesley Crusher - Pandora

Lost in Space (5):

Lieutenant Commander Beverly Crusher - mostlytechnic (scum)

Lieutenant Commander Geordi LaForge - KotZ (town)

Lieutenant Commander Data - Trekkie99 (town)

Lieutenant Worf - Fugazi (town)

Captain Jean-Luc Picard - Lind Whisperer (town)

Rules (Please Read!)
1) There are eight players. Two of those players are Q's scum. The other six are loyal Starfleet Officers. There are no third party players.
2) A game day will last for a minimum of 48 hours. You may vote at any time during the day. You must vote. A player must be lynched every day or else. A majority of players can vote to extend the day by 24 hours once, meaning the day would be a maximum of 72 hours. This majority has to be reached before the 48 hour mark.
3) There are no night actions in this game. The Starfleet Officers win by voting out all of Q's scum and the scum win by outnumbering or tying the town in a parity.
4) Use the power of the vote to win this game.
5) The alignment of players that have been voted out will be revealed the next day.
6) Under the honor rule, there will be no PMing in this game, except for the scum
7) Don't quote anything that the host sends you via PM
8) Once you are voted out, you may not post in thread or discuss the game with any players.
9) Don't edit your posts!
10) There's no clues anywhere.
11) You must post in every day thread!

**Hinckley** · March 7, 2020

https://media0.giphy.com/media/Wvo6vaUsQa3Di/giphy.gif

**Pandora** · March 7, 2020

**Darkdragon** · March 7, 2020

**Darkdragon** · March 7, 2020

Four hours with no posts :oh3: Unbelievable. My apologies for doubleposting, i just finished analyzing all the days. :blush: This is a long one.

----

I am utterly blown away that there's a Day 6 and not a conclusion. Why was he refusing to defend himself? "That's not the way I play" is not a defense. I just don't understand such lazy towniness.

It's about 8am and looks like nobody else is awake yet, so I guess I'll get started with today's arguments.

The simplest way I could think of is to just look at each day, what each person did and the result of those actions. Of course I won't look at myself since I know I'm Town and I hate when people pretend they are assessing their own actions. I'm sure you two will both assess my actions and nobody will be forgotten. These are of course just things that stand out to me and I am looking forward to see what everyone else has to say about each of us.

Caveat: I'm ignoring everything that appears to be obvious role-playing which is quite a bit of Day One.

Wesley
Day 1
Wonders aloud why she's the only one that see the humor in Crusher's post, tears apart Picard's posts point by point, votes Picard.
Result: Picard was not lynched
Day 2
Answers all of Deanna's and Worf's concerns. Puts up a weak case against Geordie and votes him (first).
Defends himself against a new barage of accusations from Worf.
Counterpoints all of Geordie's defences after Deanna and after more posts from Geordie.
Responds to concerns rasied by Worf and Deanna (again), appears to be uninformed about the night kill potential.
Writes a play for Deanna to explain things.
Result: Geordie is lynched - Town
Day 3
Defends himself as votes start to pour on very quickly. Lays out a case against Picard and votes for him.
Counters Picard's defence reply.
Responds to more questions from Deanna, Worf and whatever it was Data was posting.
Responds to more accusations from Deanna.
Responds to post from new-Picard and Data, worries the last scum is Worf, but changes vote to Data.
Responds to concerns from Worf.
Result: Data lynch - Town
Day 4
Appears to be very angry about the result and blames it on Worf. Votes Worf. Votes to extend.
Responds to Deanna's concerns.
Responds to Worfs concerns and defenses (was voted by Worf at this point as well)
Responds to Worf's and Deanna's concerns.
Responds to Worf's defences and Deanna's concerns.
Defends his vote and appears to be convinced Worf is the last scum.
Result: Worf lynched - Town
Day 5
Responds to Deanna's concerns and worries that the game is rigged. Votes Q
Responds to Deann'as concerns
Responds to Deanna's concerns, asks Riker to provide a summary of why Picard seems like Scum.
Responds to Deanna's concerns, votes Deanna and disagree's with Riker's summary and again explains why he's voting Deanna
Responds to Deanna's concerns (regarding himself) and to Rikers's concerns (regarding Picard)
Back and forth defenses between Deanna and Wes (no votes changed)
Unvotes Deanna but doesn't re-vote yet
Respnds to Deanna, votes Picard
Various responses to Picard, Deanna, Riker
Result: Picard lynched - Town

Deanna
Day 1
She's having fun, Worf points out that she must be scum because she's so laid back, she defends the attack. Is much more "normal"/hyper in posts after the accusation.
Goes after Geordie pretty hard but then attacks Picard for voting Geordie while accusing OMGUS against Deanna. I agree this was strange behavior.
After the Dr.Crusher scumpost and after Worf votes (as covered yesterday), she votes for Crusher as well. Three more votes dropped on Crusher in the last few hours of the extended day.
Result: Crusher was lynched - Scum
Day 2
A lot of talk about knowing nothing about Star Trek and drinking.
Forgives Picard for the over-reaction he (Picard) had on the previous day.
Doubleposting to begin accusing Wesley for the Crusher defences. Doesn't vote but apparently thinks voting isn't open yet, votes Wesley when clarified vote is always open.
Counterpoints all of Geordie's defenses to eplain how scummy he is (even though Deanna didn't vote for him)
Defends Wesley as not being scummy at all, eplains why Geordie is very scummy, unvotes Wesley and hammer-votes Geordie.
Result: Geordie is lynched - Town
Day 3
Starts the day by being upset Geordie was Town and votes for Wesley immediately.
Worries that nobody wants to extend the game and the votes are split. Says she suspects Data. (interestingly Wes was one vote away from lynch at this point)
Posts suspicions about everyone except Wesley but double-posts to get Wesley suspicions out there as well.
Worries about starting bandwagons.
Worries about Data's scumminess and Wesley's good-playing ability. Leaves vote on Wesley.
Worries again but leaves vote on Wes.
Worries some more, most conversation between Picard and Deanna at this point. Doesn't change vote.
Hammer-vote for Data in the last few minutes (less than 9 min) of the day.
Result: Data lynch - Town
Day 4
Starts the day with no comment but vote for extension.
Counters Wesley's arguments agains Worf. Appears to be gearing up to vote on Wes again but doesn't.
Doublepost about confusion and cheesburgers.
Responds to Wesley's defenses.
Double post to respond to Picard's posts.
Very long post that basically summarizes as "I have no idea who to vote for".
Responds to Picard's post about how scummy it is to be that indecisive.
Sits around at the end of the day with Picard (again) before voting.
After a few back-and-forth with Worf and Wesley, puts in the hammer-vote for Worf
Result: Worf lynched - Town
Day 5
Votes Wesley immediately, citing the previously made case from other days and says he will not unvote Wesley.
Responds to Wesley's game concerns
Doublepost to say Riker was in PMs
Appears to be upset that the posibility of a Day 6 could happen because Riker didn't vote for Wesley.
Quotes himself, Wesley, and Riker and asks where Picard is.
Gets a backup vote on Wesley from Picard but then calls him melodramatic and scummy.
Couple more posts about how melodramatic Picard is acting.
Responds to Wesley's concerns. Writes out what is scummy and townie about each person. Does not change vote.
Apologizes for pointing out the same things Riker already pointed out and makes a case against Picard but doesn't change vote.
Back and forth defenses between Deanna and Wes (no votes changed)
Is taken aback about the unvote on herself. Keeps her vote on Picard.
Disappears for a while, comes back at the last minute (12 mins) to hammer-vote Picard. Discusses with himself who Wesley or Riker would kill if he allowed a night kill.
Result: Picard lynched - Town

During analysis I did notice that many of Deanna's double-posts are separated by many hours of nobody else posting, so less concern to me.

So who do I find most scummy? It's a real close one, this is what i find scummy from each.
Wesley - managed to slip out of a lynch multiple days. Not by changing anyone's mind but by a Townie getting in the spotlight.
Deanna - many times said she was set on lynching Wesley as the most likely last scum but always ends up voting for a townie instead. many hammer votes.

Sorry Deanna, but I think all of this speaks more to your skill at keeping us guessing and confused.

vote: Deanna (Hinck)

**Hinckley** · March 7, 2020

21 minutes ago, Darkdragon said:

Sorry Deanna, but I think all of this speaks more to your skill at keeping us guessing and confused.

vote: Deanna (Hinck)

No apologies necessary. To be honest, for the past hour, I watched you read the other threads. I doubt you would spend four hours reading the threads if you were Scum. I also doubt you would vote for me, if you were Scum, and that's what I really wanted to see. I am relieved that you did because the easier way for you to win this, if you were Scum, would be to vote for Wesley since I've voted for Wesley every day of this game. So, that's a problem solved for me. Onto the next problem, if you're Town, which I believe you are, the way to lose this game is to vote for me, because I'm Town.

I will take the time to answer the concerns you've laid out, since you invested so much time putting them together.

In the mean time, for all of the reasons I've prolifically stated throughout the last four days of this game:

Vote: Wesley Crusher (Pandora)

**Hinckley** · March 7, 2020

35 minutes ago, Darkdragon said:

Wesley - managed to slip out of a lynch multiple days. Not by changing anyone's mind but by a Townie getting in the spotlight.
Deanna - many times said she was set on lynching Wesley as the most likely last scum but always ends up voting for a townie instead. many hammer votes.

I did hammer many of the lynches, to avoid the Scum getting a night kill. I can't lynch Wesley by myself. Would you have preferred I let the Scum get a night kill? I think your assessment of Wesley is way off and not giving him credit for the great job that he has done, as Scum, to put our attention on other people. Who was ever considering lynching Forg until he made the case against him. My game is what it was. Yes, voicing every thought and suspicion I had can be seen as trying to confuse everyone, but that wasn't my intention. My intention was to keep discussion going and analyze each player's actions, since that's all we had to go on, the stark difference between this game and games where we have night action results to go on and night kills to see every day. That was my most pro-Town ability, to analyze and share my thoughts and suspicions.

Look at Wesley's game. He consistently went after the people who voted for him. Take yesterday alone. There was a point where you unvoted Picard and Picard was starting to suspect me. This was all based on his case against me. I think I answered everyone's questions to satisfaction and I think Wesley knew that and switched to Picard, who had also voted for him. The pivoting with certainty is the difference in our games. Why did I always vote for Wesley and change my vote later? Because he was convincing people not to vote for him and I didn't have the numbers to get him lynched. So, as I stated, I went along with the bandwagons to a. get an answer on the person who did have the most votes and b. avoid the night kill. If you think Wesley wasn't lynched yesterday because Picard and I ended up in the spotlight, I disagree. I think we ended up in the spotlight because Wesley put us there. That is exactly what happened with Forg, too. You're missing his very excellent Scum game and voting for me, who has only acted with the intentions of helping the Town. Because I am Town. And if I am not, I will give you $1000 as soon as the game is over. Hell, I'll give you one billion dollars if I'm Scum.

When have you ever known Wesley to be all, "Aw shucks, folks. Maybe there are no Scum." That was an act. Again, I'm not 100% sure of anything. Maybe you just spent multiple hours with the previous Day threads open, knowing I'm a stalker and wanted to get the two of us at each other again. If so, great game, I'm a fan, I hope you win. But I'm leaning way closer to Wesley being Scum and I think her "double-checking my role PM" act was an over-the-top stunt. He knows how the game works, that was feigned confusion. He tried to get us all bogged down and confused over trivial arguments "it was the vote, not the switch" "most people read the thread in order." Grasping at straws, trying to get to the end. Not to say he hasn't done an amazing job at making it this far, but it's him. Not me. If you're Town, and want to win, vote for Wesley, because I'm Town.

Vote: extend the day

My mind is having a log jam. 48 hours may be enough for me to un-jam it, but I'm pretty sure it's Wesley and as the logs free up, I want as much time as I can get to fight. My competitive side is really firing up right now. I do not want to have spent this much time on a game, only to lose to the person I've wanted to lynch for four Days.

**Hinckley** · March 7, 2020

Now, shall I metagame the shit out of all of us.

Let's talk about my Scum game and double-posting. In my recollection, I'm much quieter as Scum and I wouldn't put my words out there to by dissected with a bunch of double-posts. When I'm playing Scum, if there's not a response for several hours, I'm relieved. I let the Day thread sit there as long as I can without having to take any risks. I also wouldn't dare suspect everyone. It's too risky when you might be killed and your words dissected later, which may accidentally point to a Scum buddy and a potentially obvious bus. Well, scratch that last part. If you believe it's me, then suspecting everyone would be safe since Beverly is already dead. However, the rest stands. Lengthy posts from me when I'm Scum may include feigned confusion but are a lot fewer and further between that the mental vomit that came out in this game. Most of my long posts, when I'm Scum, are defenses. And I typically dig back into the other person accusing me. Just like Wesley is doing. Wesley's cases against Forg, Picard and me can be chalked up to elaborate and well-articulated OMGUS arguments. To further metagame myself, when I'm Scum I can't wait for the Day to end so I can just work evil in the night phase and not worry about getting lynched. I've voted to extend the day, every day of this game and believe I was first in doing so each time. If you think I'm Scum, you'll think that's WIFOM, but it's not. Because I'm not Scum. I'm Town.

To be honest, I'm letting this game get to me, emotionally. I feel manipulated and mis-characterized. With that in mind, let's take a look at Day Three. Day. Three. Is. All. My. Fucking. Fault. Let's not metagame the host again. We're in the game, I'm not going to blame him for what happened. Let's blame Picard a bit, though. I understand that I can hurt people's feelings when I analyze their game. I think I'm clever and I want to phrase things a certain way, so I'm going to do my best to be careful and not hurt Picard's feelings. Fuck you, Picard. Sorry, just kidding. See? I can't help myself. Just vote for Wesley! Fuck. Can we go back to Day Three and just lynch Wesley. Hell, can we go back to yesterday and just lynch me? Where was I? I was taking the blame for Day Three and not hurting Picard's feelings, but failing at both...right. So, I'm always "Don't bring your personal life into the game," but I'm going to break that as well. On Day Three, I had taken my husband to the ER at 11:30pm with abdominal pain. They did a CT scan and he had an intestinal obstruction. Then they argued over if it was an obstruction or an infection and if they were going to do surgery or admit him. All the while I was sleeping on two plastic chairs with my coat as a pillow. At 5:30am they decided to admit him into a double room where his roommate groaned in his sleep and I had one plastic chair to sleep in. By 5:00 pm I hadn't eaten, had barely slept, I was hangry and tired and just downright stupid. What I really wanted was there to be a no-lynch and to be killed out of the game. Data voting for himself ruined that. I feel like I ruined the chance to lynch Wesley at that point by being an enormous stack of waffles. We couldn't have done much at that point since Picard had voted for Data. Now, let's take a look at how Wesley was taking advantage of this. Maybe it's ego but I had spent a good portion of the day suspecting Data, because Data was Scummy. I'm going to suggest that Wesley switched his vote to Data because of this. Not because I'm some big powerhouse, but because he thinks it's easier to manipulate me. Riker, you yourself said people follow my vote. So, if I'm Scum Wesley and I see Town Troinckley waffling over me and Data, I'm going to vote for Data because that's where the swing would go if it's at all possible. Where was Wesley's vote before this? On the only other person being voted for, Picard. As the day was drawing to a conclusion, and I was massively out of it, I was in the position of allowing a night kill or trying to get Data lynched instead and why wouldn't I? Data was Scummy, as you yourself admitted. Imagine the way my brain collapsed when Data voted for himself. Trying to figure out why he would do that and the best move when I had the opportunity to unvote and allow a night kill. :wacko: What if he was Scum and was pulling a last-minute gambit? What if everyone turned on me for un-voting him and leaving him in the game and allowing a night kill? By the way, I found myself in that same position every Day for the rest of the game. Do I leave my vote on Wesley or do I hammer someone? What would you have done?

Hammering people puts the spotlight on you. How is it Scummy? Scummy would be allowing a night kill...three nights of the game. This was in my control three times throughout this game. Why would I, as Scum, not take advantage of it? Especially when someone (albeit Wesley, who I strongly believe to be Scum, but in this scenario would be Town) said allowing a night kill wasn't a big deal? If I were Scum, I'd have allowed a night kill, killed Wesley, allowing myself to cruise to an easy victory by voting for Picard with you, finally getting you the lynch you'd wanted for multiple days. I can see Scum avoiding being responsible for allowing a night kill once as it would make them seem more Townie. Maybe even twice, but to pass up a night kill when it was in my control for three days? Not likely that I'm Scum, just based on that.

Let's talk about my stalking. Wesley hovered over the thread on Day Four when Forg was being lynched to watch the end of the Day. Day Five was posted immediately after Day Four was closed. It must have taken him a good night's sleep to come up with his "Maybe none of us are Scum" reaction. Maybe it was really late in the UK and he didn't stick around to see if the next Day was posted. Maybe he didn't expect it would be. Maybe he didn't notice the computer had done an immediate conclusion and new Day on previous Days. But then, why wait for the end of the Day like that? Maybe the kids needed to be tucked in, maybe it was past him bed time, maybe this is a ridiculous thing to bring up. But it's information I have, so I'm sharing it.

I do not need to be spending this time on this game, I am so far behind with my work. But, I have a passion for this game and I have a passion for winning this game and I want you, Riker, to have the clarity that Wesley's game has been diabolically Scummy, very well played, and he's about to win if you leave your vote on me.

Oh, I left out the conclusion of Wesley waiting for the end of the Day on Day Four. If one of us came to our senses and uvoted Forg, and it was a tenuous grasp since Picard and I both said we didn't like the lynch. So why the fuck did we do it??? :damn: If the Day had ended without a lynch, Wesley would've needed to send his night kill in so the computer could turn the new Day around as quickly as possible. Obviously, I was also there, but not watching the Day thread, I was stalking Wesley.

**Darkdragon** · March 7, 2020

@HinckleySorry to hear about the Day Three offline life stuff, sounds like what happened to me last game. I can see why you were so crazed that day. I hope M is doing alright now.

You can rest assured I am reading and considering everything here, not ignoring it. You make some really strong arguments both for yourself as town and for Wes as scum. I was hoping Wesley would be around too, but we haven't seen hide nor hair of him yet today.

The day is not over yet though, we still have a while left. I'm not sure if any of mental states could handle an extra 24hrs though, which is why I haven't voted to extended yet. It is still in the back of my mind though, especially if Wes doesn't come around soon.

**Hinckley** · March 7, 2020

Just now, Darkdragon said:

@HinckleySorry to hear about the Day Three offline life stuff, sounds like what happened to me last game. I can see why you were so crazed that day. I hope M is doing alright now.

You can rest assured I am reading and considering everything here, not ignoring it. You make some really strong arguments both for yourself as town and for Wes as scum. I was hoping Wesley would be around too, but we haven't seen hide nor hair of him yet today.

The day is not over yet though, we still have a while left. I'm not sure if any of mental states could handle an extra 24hrs though, which is why I haven't voted to extended yet. It is still in the back of my mind though, especially if Wes doesn't come around soon.

Makes sense to me. I've resigned myself to the ending, either way. At least it will be over.

(M is doing better. They never gave us conclusive answers. They think it was a small obstruction that will go away on its own. They assigned him six different doctors over the weekend, none of which knew they had been assigned to him. He never does this, but he got so frustrated waiting to be discharged, he played the attorney card. Not "I'll sue you!" but casually dropped his occupation into a conversation with his nurse. He's still having some problems. He sees a specialist on Tuesday.)

Bob · March 7, 2020

Vote Count:
Wesley Crusher / Pandora - 1 (Hinckley)
Deanna Troi / Hinckley - 1 (Darkdragon)

Extend the Day:
Yes - 1 (Hinckley)

About 28 hours remain in this day.

**Darkdragon** · March 8, 2020

I hope nothing ha gone wrong in Pandoraland.

Vote: extend the day

**Pandora** · March 8, 2020

Ok, so it's interesting to read the different takes on me. One seems to reasonably reflect what I've said and done, and one... really doesn't. Now, I don't know if I've ever mentioned this, but I'm Town, so when that happens I have to wonder if the inaccurate account is because someone is dumb, desperately misguided, or just trying to save their own hide and get me lynched. Deanna is certainly not dumb, and I doubt she is misguided either. Deanna had, by her own confession, been around stalking Riker and yet she waited to see what Riker would do before re-launching her attack on me.

13 hours ago, Hinckley said:

I did hammer many of the lynches, to avoid the Scum getting a night kill. I can't lynch Wesley by myself. Would you have preferred I let the Scum get a night kill? I think your assessment of Wesley is way off and not giving him credit for the great job that he has done, as Scum, to put our attention on other people. Who was ever considering lynching Forg until he made the case against him. My game is what it was. Yes, voicing every thought and suspicion I had can be seen as trying to confuse everyone, but that wasn't my intention. My intention was to keep discussion going and analyze each player's actions, since that's all we had to go on, the stark difference between this game and games where we have night action results to go on and night kills to see every day. That was my most pro-Town ability, to analyze and share my thoughts and suspicions.

I'm not going to go point to point because I'm exhausted, but I do need to respond to some things.

You can't lynch me by yourself indeed, and I can't lynch anyone else by myself either. I'm not going to vote for myself, so I think it's pretty understandable I would look to people other than myself and if I find something I believe to be scummy I put attention on it. That is, after all, the point of the game. You say you voicing every thought and suspicion is a Town thing, but really you've just posted quite a bit of wishy-washy fluff rather than real suspicions, and you know better than that. The thoughts you've posted have been more of a stream of consciousness and often quite erratic when trying to follow them. Your usual order and logic are lost in mess, and I know you've had stuff going on, and I send all my love and best wishes to you and M with that, but even with that I think it is an attempt to obfuscate your true thoughts and intentions.

13 hours ago, Hinckley said:

That was my most pro-Town ability, to analyze and share my thoughts and suspicions.

This super-duper pings me. "pro-Town" not "Town" it's weird.

13 hours ago, Hinckley said:

Look at Wesley's game. He consistently went after the people who voted for him.

At one point or another I think everyone's voted for me, so that really doesn't narrow it down! :laugh: Should I have consistently tried to get myself lynched?

13 hours ago, Hinckley said:

There was a point where you unvoted Picard and Picard was starting to suspect me. This was all based on his case against me. I think I answered everyone's questions to satisfaction and I think Wesley knew that and switched to Picard, who had also voted for him. The pivoting with certainty is the difference in our games.

Actually, after Riker unvoted Picard, Picard then voted for me. So if Picard was "starting to suspect" you, he expressed it unconventionally by voting for me. That would have been a master-stroke of manipulation by me! :laugh:

13 hours ago, Hinckley said:

Why did I always vote for Wesley and change my vote later? Because he was convincing people not to vote for him and I didn't have the numbers to get him lynched. So, as I stated, I went along with the bandwagons to a. get an answer on the person who did have the most votes and b. avoid the night kill. If you think Wesley wasn't lynched yesterday because Picard and I ended up in the spotlight, I disagree. I think we ended up in the spotlight because Wesley put us there.

I was convincing people not to vote for me! Such a scummy move to fight so hard and make people see I am Town!

As to the spotlight yesterday. There were but four of us here yesterday and I don't know how small you think the spotlight is, but I would say all four of us were in the spotlight all day. I did not, and could not, engineer that, and it's frankly ridiculous to think that I might have.

13 hours ago, Hinckley said:

When have you ever known Wesley to be all, "Aw shucks, folks. Maybe there are no Scum." That was an act. Again, I'm not 100% sure of anything..

I was hardly "aw shucks" and I will repeat that it's odd that you haven't considered anything like this. I went back and re-read def's game from about 9 years ago (The Coming Darkness), that Bob also played. Forg and I were only late-game substitutes in that game, and in that game the scum were actually all the dead players. There are some setups where you can't be completely honest with the players because the setup doesn't work if you are. What crazy world are we in where the normally paranoid and inquisitive Deanna actually ridicules someone for considering this?

13 hours ago, Hinckley said:

I think her "double-checking my role PM" act was an over-the-top stunt. He knows how the game works, that was feigned confusion.

You've missed the point. When I mentioned about double checking my role PM it was a joking indication that I have been fighting back against wave after wave of opinion that I might be scum so much that I had almost managed to almost become convinced I actually was and so checking my role PM to reassure myself that I am indeed Town. Which I am. I've checked. :tongue:

13 hours ago, Hinckley said:

He tried to get us all bogged down and confused over trivial arguments "it was the vote, not the switch" "most people read the thread in order." Grasping at straws, trying to get to the end.

Not trivial arguments, valid points. Are you saying that "most people read the thread in order" is an outrageous and scummy statement? :wacko: You said you saw something incredibly scummy in Beverly's post and just had to vote for her there and then, and only after that did you go back and read the rest of the thread. Ridiculous.

12 hours ago, Hinckley said:

Now, shall I metagame the shit out of all of us.

You mean you're only just starting that now? :laugh:

Of course not, you do that all game every game, what am I saying? :sadnew:

12 hours ago, Hinckley said:

Let's talk about my Scum game and double-posting. In my recollection, I'm much quieter as Scum and I wouldn't put my words out there to by dissected with a bunch of double-posts. When I'm playing Scum, if there's not a response for several hours, I'm relieved. I let the Day thread sit there as long as I can without having to take any risks. I also wouldn't dare suspect everyone. It's too risky when you might be killed and your words dissected later, which may accidentally point to a Scum buddy and a potentially obvious bus. Well, scratch that last part. If you believe it's me, then suspecting everyone would be safe since Beverly is already dead. However, the rest stands. Lengthy posts from me when I'm Scum may include feigned confusion but are a lot fewer and further between that the mental vomit that came out in this game. Most of my long posts, when I'm Scum, are defenses. And I typically dig back into the other person accusing me. Just like Wesley is doing. Wesley's cases against Forg, Picard and me can be chalked up to elaborate and well-articulated OMGUS arguments. To further metagame myself, when I'm Scum I can't wait for the Day to end so I can just work evil in the night phase and not worry about getting lynched. I've voted to extend the day, every day of this game and believe I was first in doing so each time. If you think I'm Scum, you'll think that's WIFOM, but it's not. Because I'm not Scum. I'm Town.

I don't think I would agree with anyone's self-characterisation of their scum game, so I don't see what the point of this is. There's a lot I could respond to here, but saying that usually when you're scum you can't wait to get to the night phase to be evil, but in this game you've voted to extend the day, is really quite silly. There isn't much/any evil for you to do in the night, so what does it matter if you extend the day or not? It isn't even WIFOM. Why are you even making this point?

12 hours ago, Hinckley said:

To be honest, I'm letting this game get to me, emotionally. I feel manipulated and mis-characterized.

Welcome to my world! :laugh:

12 hours ago, Hinckley said:

We couldn't have done much at that point since Picard had voted for Data. Now, let's take a look at how Wesley was taking advantage of this. Maybe it's ego but I had spent a good portion of the day suspecting Data, because Data was Scummy. I'm going to suggest that Wesley switched his vote to Data because of this. Not because I'm some big powerhouse, but because he thinks it's easier to manipulate me. Riker, you yourself said people follow my vote. So, if I'm Scum Wesley and I see Town Troinckley waffling over me and Data, I'm going to vote for Data because that's where the swing would go if it's at all possible. Where was Wesley's vote before this? On the only other person being voted for, Picard.

*huh*

You made one statement about Data early on that could go either way - he might be scum, he might not, said Picard was the same transport as him, and that was it. I had initially voted for Picard and subsequently unvoted him and voted for Data for my own reasons. It was only after that that you started mumbling about unvoting me and voting for Data. I fail to see my manipulation here. It was after that that Picard suggested you and he vote for Data, which you then batted back and forth while I was responding to Forg. It wasn't in your power to hammer me, you'd already voted for me. You then voted third for Data and Data was the last person to vote for himself. How was I taking advantage of anything? My last post of the day was talking to Forg and I wasn't around for the end of the day. My amazing manipulative skills managed to get two people to unvote me and vote for Data, and get Data to vote for himself, even though I wasn't even saying anything and wasn't around for the end of the day. Fucking hell, I'm a fucking genius. :laugh:

12 hours ago, Hinckley said:

As the day was drawing to a conclusion, and I was massively out of it, I was in the position of allowing a night kill or trying to get Data lynched instead and why wouldn't I? Data was Scummy, as you yourself admitted. Imagine the way my brain collapsed when Data voted for himself. Trying to figure out why he would do that and the best move when I had the opportunity to unvote and allow a night kill. What if he was Scum and was pulling a last-minute gambit? What if everyone turned on me for un-voting him and leaving him in the game and allowing a night kill? By the way, I found myself in that same position every Day for the rest of the game. Do I leave my vote on Wesley or do I hammer someone? What would you have done?

Oh the humanity!

You didn't hammer anyone, Data hammered himself. You could easily have convinced Picard to lynch me, he was asking you what to do. If you'd just said "nah, we should lynch that fucker Wesley once and for all" he'd have said "Okedokee" and I wouldn't be here.

12 hours ago, Hinckley said:

Hammering people puts the spotlight on you. How is it Scummy? Scummy would be allowing a night kill...three nights of the game. This was in my control three times throughout this game. Why would I, as Scum, not take advantage of it? Especially when someone (albeit Wesley, who I strongly believe to be Scum, but in this scenario would be Town) said allowing a night kill wasn't a big deal? If I were Scum, I'd have allowed a night kill, killed Wesley, allowing myself to cruise to an easy victory by voting for Picard with you, finally getting you the lynch you'd wanted for multiple days. I can see Scum avoiding being responsible for allowing a night kill once as it would make them seem more Townie. Maybe even twice, but to pass up a night kill when it was in my control for three days? Not likely that I'm Scum, just based on that.

The only person you truly hammered was Forg. And that's probably nicer for you than killing him at night, which would be more personal. You cast the hammer vote on Geordi, but Riker also voted for Geordi after you, so even if you had unvoted, he still would have been lynched.

Maybe I'm missing it, but I don't see all these opportunities to save the Town from a night kill. And the point has been made by various people regarding various other people (but notably by Forg regarding you) that keeping me around (i.e. not night killing me) is useful to you as a diversionary tactic. As long as I am here, you feel you have a shield against being lynched, because people keep demonstrating how keen they are to lynch me, so they'll deffo lynch me before you, right?

12 hours ago, Hinckley said:

Let's talk about my stalking. Wesley hovered over the thread on Day Four when Forg was being lynched to watch the end of the Day. Day Five was posted immediately after Day Four was closed. It must have taken him a good night's sleep to come up with his "Maybe none of us are Scum" reaction. Maybe it was really late in the UK and he didn't stick around to see if the next Day was posted. Maybe he didn't expect it would be. Maybe he didn't notice the computer had done an immediate conclusion and new Day on previous Days. But then, why wait for the end of the Day like that? Maybe the kids needed to be tucked in, maybe it was past him bed time, maybe this is a ridiculous thing to bring up. But it's information I have, so I'm sharing it.

Day Four I made my last post about you being a therapist and that was that. My name may have still looked like I was here for that 20 minutes or so it takes, but I wasn't. It was nearly one O'Clock in the morning on a weekday night; kids long since tucked up and a husband trying very hard to get to sleep. This really is ridiculous yes, however Riker had said how he felt reassured by your paranoid stalking of him, so I can see you trying to appeal to him with this.

12 hours ago, Hinckley said:

Oh, I left out the conclusion of Wesley waiting for the end of the Day on Day Four. If one of us came to our senses and uvoted Forg, and it was a tenuous grasp since Picard and I both said we didn't like the lynch. So why the fuck did we do it??? If the Day had ended without a lynch, Wesley would've needed to send his night kill in so the computer could turn the new Day around as quickly as possible. Obviously, I was also there, but not watching the Day thread, I was stalking Wesley.

Yeah, you were only hanging around to stalk me! :laugh: So... you thought I was here in case I, or you, or Picard unvoted Forg and I needed to send a night kill in, but it cannot be that you were here thinking I was here, worried I would unvote Forg and you might need to be the one to send a night kill in? Oh man.

10 hours ago, Darkdragon said:

The day is not over yet though, we still have a while left. I'm not sure if any of mental states could handle an extra 24hrs though, which is why I haven't voted to extended yet. It is still in the back of my mind though, especially if Wes doesn't come around soon.

Thanks for extending the day, sorry I wasn't around. Pandoraland ( :laugh: ) is ok, thanks.

Vote: Deanna Troi (Hincklestinckle)

Bob · March 8, 2020

Vote Count:
Wesley Crusher / Pandora - 1 (Hinckley)
Deanna Troi / Hinckley - 2 (Darkdragon, Pandora)

Extend the Day:
Yes - 2 (Hinckley, Darkdragon)

The day is extended. About 36 hours remain in this day.

**Darkdragon** · March 8, 2020

I'm glad everything is alright in Pandoraland.

Now that everyone is here do we still need the extended day? Do you have anything else to add@Hinckley?

**Hinckley** · March 9, 2020

1 hour ago, Darkdragon said:

I'm glad everything is alright in Pandoraland.

Now that everyone is here do we still need the extended day? Do you have anything else to add@Hinckley?

Are you leaving your vote on me? If you are, and you're Town, you're going to lose. I know that's easy for anybody to say, but in this case, it's true. I've got 29 hours left to fight for the Town and I'll use it I need to.

Perhaps you want to finish up quickly, because you're Scum and you want the win, now. If that's the case, amazing job, and I can't see how either Wesley or I would get it together to see it. But, you did a great job and keeping us around to focus on each other, while coasting to a win. In that case, you already know you're not getting your one billion dollars. In that case, it might be cruel of you to switch your vote to Wesley and keep us spinning our wheels.

This is something it doesn't seem Wesley has even considered, which again strikes me as odd. She's got you solidly in the Town column. Why isn't she considering it could be you? I think it's because she's Scum and she's got your vote already and she just wants this over with. I'm not a big fan of losing, or being lynched as Town, so I'm definitely not giving up, so I'll go through her rebuttal and point out where she isn't even quoting me correctly. Hang tight, I'm sure this means another wall of text post is coming from me.

**Darkdragon** · March 9, 2020

I haven't decided what to do, I'm happy with the extra time to see what makes more sense and most honest with everyone's defenses.

I am terrified of making the wrong choice here, this is the end no matter who is lynched. I want the win for Town and, no offence at all meant, but you know me pretty well and know my triggers and that I can be a softy at heart. Wesley on the other hand doesn't know me quite as well, but seems to know I appreciate concise facts. :dwacko:

So the same thing you mentioned about being manipulated is what I'm trying my hardest not to fall into myself. When there were no replies for so many hours, I was afraid you had given up and wanted to see if you had any counters for what Wesley was talking about earlier.

**Hinckley** · March 9, 2020

13 hours ago, Pandora said:

Ok, so it's interesting to read the different takes on me. One seems to reasonably reflect what I've said and done, and one... really doesn't. Now, I don't know if I've ever mentioned this, but I'm Town, so when that happens I have to wonder if the inaccurate account is because someone is dumb, desperately misguided, or just trying to save their own hide and get me lynched. Deanna is certainly not dumb, and I doubt she is misguided either. Deanna had, by her own confession, been around stalking Riker and yet she waited to see what Riker would do before re-launching her attack on me.

Well, if you are indeed Town then I am either dumb or misguided, because I am not Scum.

13 hours ago, Pandora said:

You can't lynch me by yourself indeed, and I can't lynch anyone else by myself either. I'm not going to vote for myself, so I think it's pretty understandable I would look to people other than myself and if I find something I believe to be scummy I put attention on it. That is, after all, the point of the game. You say you voicing every thought and suspicion is a Town thing, but really you've just posted quite a bit of wishy-washy fluff rather than real suspicions, and you know better than that. The thoughts you've posted have been more of a stream of consciousness and often quite erratic when trying to follow them. Your usual order and logic are lost in mess, and I know you've had stuff going on, and I send all my love and best wishes to you and M with that, but even with that I think it is an attempt to obfuscate your true thoughts and intentions.

Several times throughout this game, Wesley has put people in definite or likely Town columns, while laser-focusing on one person, typically ones that voted for him. This is not the way to play a game where our only tool is our vote. It's also unlike Wesley, to easily trust a person or put them in any Town column without being totally sure. And going back to fully explain what was happening on Day Three, which was an insane Mafia day for me, I'm not attempting to obfuscate anything with that. I'm trying to explain my own neurosis that, when I go back over that Day, makes me cringe.

13 hours ago, Pandora said:

At one point or another I think everyone's voted for me, so that really doesn't narrow it down! Should I have consistently tried to get myself lynched?

This is not the point I was making, you went after them, directly after they voted for you. All of your cases have been elaborate OMGUS votes.

13 hours ago, Pandora said:

I went back and re-read def's game from about 9 years ago (The Coming Darkness), that Bob also played. Forg and I were only late-game substitutes in that game, and in that game the scum were actually all the dead players. There are some setups where you can't be completely honest with the players because the setup doesn't work if you are. What crazy world are we in where the normally paranoid and inquisitive Deanna actually ridicules someone for considering this?

A world where Bob has told us what the setup is, and that's the one thing (besides our own alignment) we can actually be sure of. Why would you go back and read Def's non-Mafia game when this game is hosted by Bob and it's the exact same setup as his last Star Trek game? Your entire idea that there were no Scum or we didn't know until we were lynched or whatever you were hypothesizing pinged me, as it's not like you and it's weird to reach so far in a game that we've been told how the setup works. It seems like you were trying really hard to seem like a Townie and what would a frustrated Townie do? Make up crazy theories. But, again, we just have no reason to believe there's anything at play here but what Bob has precisely told us is going on.

13 hours ago, Pandora said:

Not trivial arguments, valid points. Are you saying that "most people read the thread in order" is an outrageous and scummy statement? You said you saw something incredibly scummy in Beverly's post and just had to vote for her there and then, and only after that did you go back and read the rest of the thread. Ridiculous.

You can see that I didn't even know her character name when I voted. If I had scrolled through and read the whole thing before voting, I could've seen the character name in Forg's post, but I didn't. I voted immediately after reading the post, then went back and read the rest. That's what I did. Apparently, you think that's ridiculous. I think you're bogging us down in one of the most trivial arguments ever, and why would it even make me Scummy if I didn't post the way I'm saying I did? Is there something Scummy about reading the thread, in order, and then voting when I did? Oh, right, right. Because I voted second. Well, I've told you I had no idea how many people had voted for her at the point I voted and that's the truth. What I find Scummy is that you keep insisting that I must have read the thread in order, because that's what everybody does. I often respond immediately to things I've read and then go back and read what's in-between. You can see evidence of it in my responses throughout this game. Or, since all of our posts merge now, what may look like I've gone through and read first, isn't. Why is this even a point to keep arguing over? I've explained how I read and respond to threads. I'm not lying about that. Or anything, for that matter.

13 hours ago, Pandora said:

I don't think I would agree with anyone's self-characterisation of their scum game, so I don't see what the point of this is. There's a lot I could respond to here, but saying that usually when you're scum you can't wait to get to the night phase to be evil, but in this game you've voted to extend the day, is really quite silly. There isn't much/any evil for you to do in the night, so what does it matter if you extend the day or not? It isn't even WIFOM. Why are you even making this point?

Because extending the day is a pro-Town move. We need the time to look at each other's behaviors and interactions and dissect their words, that's all we have. The more time we have for it, the better for us. You've taken half of my statement and argued it as the whole. Of course there would be no evil at night in a game without Actions, but my point is the end of the Day would still be a relief because you don't have to be "on" anymore and you get a break after avoiding being lynched. I have wanted the Days to last as long as possible and often felt up against the clock as Days Three, Four and Five were all drawing to conclusion without a lynch.

13 hours ago, Pandora said:

You didn't hammer anyone, Data hammered himself. You could easily have convinced Picard to lynch me, he was asking you what to do. If you'd just said "nah, we should lynch that fucker Wesley once and for all" he'd have said "Okedokee" and I wouldn't be here.

Again, you've taken half of my statement as the whole. I said I found myself in that position every Day after that. What I'm referring to is that I had the opportunity to un-lynch the person being lynched which would've allowed the Scum a night kill. And yes, I was in that position on Day Three, Day Four and Day Five. I don't know how anybody wouldn't be able to see that. Maybe you're desperately trying to take away one of my best points to convince Riker that I'm Town, with no argument. Because, it's right there for everybody to see, I found myself in that position repeatedly.

13 hours ago, Pandora said:

Day Four I made my last post about you being a therapist and that was that. My name may have still looked like I was here for that 20 minutes or so it takes, but I wasn't. It was nearly one O'Clock in the morning on a weekday night; kids long since tucked up and a husband trying very hard to get to sleep. This really is ridiculous yes, however Riker had said how he felt reassured by your paranoid stalking of him, so I can see you trying to appeal to him with this.

Yeah, you were only hanging around to stalk me! So... you thought I was here in case I, or you, or Picard unvoted Forg and I needed to send a night kill in, but it cannot be that you were here thinking I was here, worried I would unvote Forg and you might need to be the one to send a night kill in? Oh man.

Of course it can be said for both of us. But I'm telling you what did happen and what was going on in my head at the time, and once again, I'm not lying, or dumb, or ridiculous, or misguided. Unless, of course, Riker is Scum, then I'm horribly misguided.

Whichever one of you is Scum, we have plenty of time left in the day and if I'm being lynched, you already won, and I'm really impatient and I want to congratulate you now, and talk about your awesome game, so just raise your hand and admit it. Great job, take your accolades. Come on, tell us. You know you're dying to...

5 minutes ago, Darkdragon said:

So the same thing you mentioned about being manipulated is what I'm trying my hardest not to fall into myself. When there were no replies for so many hours, I was afraid you had given up and wanted to see if you had any counters for what Wesley was talking about earlier.

Never. I would never give up. I was in the burbs all day for my niece's horse competition. Went straight to this when I got home. I'm not, at all, a phone poster. I hovered over the thread all day yesterday waiting for Wesley. I'm here. I'm not giving up.

What side were you afraid I was giving up from?

**Darkdragon** · March 9, 2020

4 minutes ago, Hinckley said:

What side were you afraid I was giving up from?

Either side. If you are scum because I didn't change my vote instantly and if you are town because you feel hopeless. I am happy to hear you didn't give up. I'm beginning to think Wesley spent nearly 24 hours not showing up because why bother since I had already voted for you.

**Hinckley** · March 9, 2020

14 hours ago, Pandora said:

You made one statement about Data early on that could go either way - he might be scum, he might not, said Picard was the same transport as him, and that was it. I had initially voted for Picard and subsequently unvoted him and voted for Data for my own reasons. It was only after that that you started mumbling about unvoting me and voting for Data.

Odd that you would misrepresent this, when it's all there, in the open, for any of us to see the actual order of events.

On 2/26/2020 at 7:48 PM, Hinckley said:

Picard and Data are both flying under the radar. It's more typical of Picard than Data, but it is not the most proactive-Townie behavior in a game where activity is all we have to work off of.

On 2/27/2020 at 10:35 PM, Hinckley said:

Judging by voting position and activity level, I still suspect Data. With one exception. He placed the fourth vote on Beverly on Day One. This put her within one vote of the hammer. I'm not sure Scum would take that risk on Day One, but it could also pay off in the long run as it doesn't necessarily look Scummy. But we're not getting much from Data and this isn't something I'm used to from his. Judging by post counts from recent endeavors. Yesterday and today, he's jumped on second and third to the bandwagons, without much input.

Picard is in the same transport. While he cited today that he's been busy, his contributions have been short and far between and not as fully thought out as we have come to expect from him.

The vote tally today seems like Beverly is still in the game. We're stalled, nobody wants to extend the day. I think there's quite a lot to discuss. Let's go. What are people doing? Or would you prefer the Scum get a kill tonight. Do we really want to play without Forg, because you know damn well that's who they'd kill.

It always seemed odd to me that Wesley responded to this with "You realize she's gone, right?" Not sure why, but my point was the votes were being spread out and we weren't getting to a lynch, which is something Beverly loved doing in a previous game. That was my point. Not sure why things pings me, again, but I thought I'd point that out too.

On 2/28/2020 at 9:54 AM, Hinckley said:

Data is way off, in my opinion in this game. As I've previously stated, my worries revolve around his lack of activity or serious contribution. In response to my previous concerns, he posted more about Picard. I think we have all seen how he behaves when he's Town, at least with the most recent example of Thack Desteck, and this is a very different game for him. I also remember KotZ's visitor game where we also saw a different Data. This reminds me more of the Ham Sandwich Data we saw in The Forest III. Metagame. Metagame. Metagame. Even regardless of the comparison of behaviors, he is flying under the radar and not making significant contributions to the Scum hunt.

Seems like I had three mentions of my thoughts on Data being Scummy. They were in paragraphs with other suspicions, but Data's behavior was bugging me the most on that day, as I mentioned, since his game play seemed so off. And then, Wesley switched from Picard to Data.

On 2/29/2020 at 11:30 AM, Pandora said:

You still can't tell me why you think I'm scum, you just want me gone.

Ironically, this is your least scunny (sic) post so far. Not this bit, I only quoted this bit because of the "scunny". But it is interesting that you worry you might spend tomorrow thinking you might have to defend yourself if I end up town (which I will). Talk like that will get you lynched around here, Captain.

Anyway, you've said enough for me to unvote you. (surprise!)

Well, I think we are. I mean, I know I am for sure, and I think it's quite likely Deanna is too.

This isn't what you'd say if you were scum; if you were scum you'd just want me gone. A bit like Data.

I worry that it's The Forg, but I suspect I'd need to die to make that case. Please remember that it was he who grasped at this straw and pursued it across several days, ignoring almost anything else. It could also very easily be Data, and this is the case I would tend towards. He's said so very little, barely responded to any questioning and offered no true analysis of his own. I've played on the same side as him both as town and scum, and this fits his scum game to a tee including the gleeful bloodthirst and his utter lack worry that I might be actually be town. I think he knows I am and doesn't care.

Unvote: Picard (Lind Whisperer) and Vote: Data (Trekkie99)

On 2/29/2020 at 3:00 PM, Hinckley said:

I hate to say this, but Data seems so Scummy and Wesley is such a good player and it's all making me pretty confused and frustrated (plus, I've been in the hospital for the past 15 hours–not for me, and the person I am here for is going to be OK...) and I'm hungry and tired and I'm getting a headache and I'm being dramatic...I kind of just want the Scum to have a night kill. Let them remove someone from our list of suspicions.

Wait, that's nuts. I need a granola bar or something.

My gut feeling is to un-lynch Wesley and go for Data. If we're wrong, we're just stuck back on Wesley, though. This game is difficult when all your mental resources are depleted. Someone give me a back cheeseburger and some whiskey, please! Where was I? Who is that? Dad? Um...right. Un-lynch Wesley, why not? Because...it's going to suck to spend another day arguing with Wesley about why he's not Scummy but lynching him anyways. What am I talking about? Can I get a replacement, please?

Data is Scummier, Wesley is the better player. But, Occam's Razor, when two people appear to be going at each other and arguing publicly, they're typically both Town. But Wesley and I might be going at each other in private if we could PM. That's not true either, though! I would never allow myself to have a private conversation with Wesley if I thought he was Scum and vice-versa.

Hmmmm... I guess my desire to just let the Scum have a night kill is a desire to lynch stupid Data.

Hey, my gut sucks, though! I can get really clever with evidence and strategy but I have the worst gut out of any of us. Because I play with my feelings, not my gut. So my feelings are to un-lynch Wesley. I feel like I'm high, I don't have the energy to edit this post to something coherent.

We have like a fucking hour left. Do we even have the people around to spare Wesley, yet again, and lynch Data?

And should we??? Where's my cheeseburger? Fuck the cheeseburger, I'll just take the whiskey and mass amounts thereof. Or at least two.

What am I talking about????

And could I have convinced Picard to vote for Wesley? I'm not so sure I would've been able to. Picard wasn't easy to read either, since he'd just had a personality-ectomy.

I'll check that next, my interactions with Picard and if I can get back into my head of how I was reading him at the time. Again, I think my strongest desire was to be night-killed, because the game was already driving me nuts, but that Day was particularly crazy and the ending was just *huh*

**Hinckley** · March 9, 2020

14 hours ago, Pandora said:

You could easily have convinced Picard to lynch me, he was asking you what to do. If you'd just said "nah, we should lynch that fucker Wesley once and for all" he'd have said "Okedokee" and I wouldn't be here.

Is this another misrepresentation of what we can all see are the real facts?

On 2/29/2020 at 3:00 PM, Hinckley said:

I hate to say this, but Data seems so Scummy and Wesley is such a good player and it's all making me pretty confused and frustrated (plus, I've been in the hospital for the past 15 hours–not for me, and the person I am here for is going to be OK...) and I'm hungry and tired and I'm getting a headache and I'm being dramatic...I kind of just want the Scum to have a night kill. Let them remove someone from our list of suspicions.

Wait, that's nuts. I need a granola bar or something.

My gut feeling is to un-lynch Wesley and go for Data. If we're wrong, we're just stuck back on Wesley, though. This game is difficult when all your mental resources are depleted. Someone give me a back cheeseburger and some whiskey, please! Where was I? Who is that? Dad? Um...right. Un-lynch Wesley, why not? Because...it's going to suck to spend another day arguing with Wesley about why he's not Scummy but lynching him anyways. What am I talking about? Can I get a replacement, please?

Data is Scummier, Wesley is the better player. But, Occam's Razor, when two people appear to be going at each other and arguing publicly, they're typically both Town. But Wesley and I might be going at each other in private if we could PM. That's not true either, though! I would never allow myself to have a private conversation with Wesley if I thought he was Scum and vice-versa.

Hmmmm... I guess my desire to just let the Scum have a night kill is a desire to lynch stupid Data.

Hey, my gut sucks, though! I can get really clever with evidence and strategy but I have the worst gut out of any of us. Because I play with my feelings, not my gut. So my feelings are to un-lynch Wesley. I feel like I'm high, I don't have the energy to edit this post to something coherent.

We have like a fucking hour left. Do we even have the people around to spare Wesley, yet again, and lynch Data?

And should we??? Where's my cheeseburger? Fuck the cheeseburger, I'll just take the whiskey and mass amounts thereof. Or at least two.

What am I talking about????

I've put the discussion here from the day, but if you click back you can see that Picard's posts weren't conclusive of anything and none of the suspects on his list were Wesley. It did not seem he was going for it and I was very worried about getting it wrong, as I stated. The entire "Wesley is too smart to defend Beverly" was repeatedly winning me over, and Data was Scummy. There was an hour left in the Day and we needed to do something.

On 2/29/2020 at 3:11 PM, Lind Whisperer said:

Assuming you and I vote Data, we'd need either @Darkdragon or @Fugazi.

On 2/29/2020 at 3:13 PM, Hinckley said:

Ugh, I feel like I will do it, if they are around. @Lind Whisperer you feel better about the Data lynch than the Wesley lynch?

Looks more like I was asking him.

On 2/29/2020 at 3:26 PM, Lind Whisperer said:

I'm debating that.

Glad as I am to have someone who agrees with me, it was a bit of a quickly changed vote. In a previous game, I was grateful to Crusher for agreeing with me - which was a mistake, as Crusher was then also scum, which I had suspected but dropped.

I don't think this is a repeat, but the possibility of Wesley realizing my hammer vote might be changed by agreeing with me, is not a non-factor.

Eh.

I'd like to vote Riker. But if it's down to Wesley/Data...

Vote: Data @Trekkie99

That's a doozy of a sentence but it seems like he was not interested in lynching Wesley.

I'll admit I've said I wanted to lynch Wesley every day, but I obviously was convinced on other people. When you're in a situation where the person you want lynched is getting the votes and there are other suspicious people and you don't lynch someone the Scum get to choose who to kill, you have to achieve a lynch, at least that was my philosophy the past three Days. I was continuously thwarted by myself, as well, for not thinking Wesley would take that risk of defending Beverly on Day One, but I think she did and has been expertly convincing us otherwise, ever since.

On 2/29/2020 at 3:34 PM, Hinckley said:

Here's the biggest crux for me. Wesley is too smart to associate himself so strongly with someone he knows would flip Scum, if lynched. Perhaps the reason I'm saying it still needs to be tested is because it might be what I would've done if I were Beverly's Scum buddy-try to save her. But, that's because I'm impatient and hasty and emotional. Wesley is not. He's patient and calculated and I am close to going as far to say that he would never ever ever ever put himself in this position if he was Scum. He'd probably glom onto the Beverly vote and if she got lynched, ride out the rest of the game seeming cool, collected, logical, fine white Italian wine fueled and cruise to a victory. It just doesn't ring true to me that he would choose, instead, to just paint the biggest target on himself, knowing there was enough time left to ... fuck... gotta run.

On 2/29/2020 at 3:15 PM, Pandora said:

The suspicion won't remain that long if you actually lynch someone who is scum.

No, a single scum cannot say anything they want. It is entirely possible, indeed probable, that a single scum out on their own will find some clumsy way to utterly fuck up. And Day One conversations are usually entirely fluff and bluster and roleplay and rubbish, not important at all.

You flatter me, and I love it, but you are devilishly devious yourself, compadre. I see you've managed to coalesce an opinion on why I'm scummy and it seems that in fact it's actually that I'm not, and it's all Beverley's fault. Which is difficult for me as I can't argue about what Beverley did, because a)she's scum and b)I'm not her. Nice.

And don't you all forget that under this delicious flattery is one of the other, if not the deviousest scummy scum to have ever played on EB. You acknowledge the metagaming, but do it anyway. Almost as if you know I actually am an honest townie. Are you lining up Troi for later?

I'm so damn tired of this. I'll say it again for those in the back, I am town, but then, if you're going to metagame me, I suppose I would say that, wouldn't I?

And in the middle of this town-flail of lynching or allowing a night kill, all Wesley has to say about it is that Forg is Scummy. He's accusing him of lining me up for later, but isn't that what he ended up doing to Forg?

*isn't getting the votes...

**Pandora** · March 9, 2020

11 hours ago, Hinckley said:

This is something it doesn't seem Wesley has even considered, which again strikes me as odd. She's got you solidly in the Town column. Why isn't she considering it could be you?

Except I am and I have been considering the possibility Riker might be scum, and consistently on balance you come out much scummier. Nobody has ever been solidly in any column, and I've made plenty of comments on my views of Riker. Riker's very first post, when it wasn't even this Riker, was to come in and reassess the situation and vote in a completely different direction when, if Riker were scum, he would have known his team-mate was about to be lynched and would want to blend in with the crowd and be on that bandwagon. You, on the other hand, voted for Bev immediately when you saw something super-scummy (and that explanation is a fudge) and apparently completely didn't notice that Forg had voted, no sirree sir, because if you did acknowledge that Forg had voted first you realise it would lend a lot of weight to us realising you bussed your team-mate.

10 hours ago, Hinckley said:

Several times throughout this game, Wesley has put people in definite or likely Town columns, while laser-focusing on one person, typically ones that voted for him. This is not the way to play a game where our only tool is our vote. It's also unlike Wesley, to easily trust a person or put them in any Town column without being totally sure. And going back to fully explain what was happening on Day Three, which was an insane Mafia day for me, I'm not attempting to obfuscate anything with that. I'm trying to explain my own neurosis that, when I go back over that Day, makes me cringe.

Well, I think I've just responded to a lot of this: I haven't put anyone in any definite anything, so I don't know where you're getting this from. Is this one of those things where you think if you say it often enough people will actually believe you? And I have said that pretty much everyone has voted for me at one point or another, so yes the people I've suspected have voted for me. I have indeed suspected people, raised my suspicions and made cases and voted accordingly. That really is actually how "to play a game where our only tool is our vote".

You keep talking about Day Three and how it was insane, and you are neurotic about it and it makes you cringe. Riker, just go back and read what happened (if you haven't already) and you will see for yourself.

10 hours ago, Hinckley said:

This is not the point I was making, you went after them, directly after they voted for you. All of your cases have been elaborate OMGUS votes.

In a game where multiple people have voted for me on multiple days, almost anybody I make a case against could be described as such. I have a natural tendency, and I know I am not alone in this, to suspect people who try very hard to get me lynched, when I know I am Town. Call that elaborate OMGUS if you want, but you yourself have pointed out that we don't have night actions to inform us, we must go by the information that's posted in the threads.

You have bemoaned the fact that you can't lynch me on your own, even though you have often left it to others to front the charge. You follow them with a hand-wringing exercise of "it probably is, but it might not, but yes you're right it is". I can't lynch people on my own either, as it happens. I have been out making cases, pushing forwards and not hedging my bets like you, but I am not responsible for other people's votes, and I certainly don't hold as much sway as you do.

10 hours ago, Hinckley said:

A world where Bob has told us what the setup is, and that's the one thing (besides our own alignment) we can actually be sure of. Why would you go back and read Def's non-Mafia game when this game is hosted by Bob and it's the exact same setup as his last Star Trek game? Your entire idea that there were no Scum or we didn't know until we were lynched or whatever you were hypothesizing pinged me, as it's not like you and it's weird to reach so far in a game that we've been told how the setup works. It seems like you were trying really hard to seem like a Townie and what would a frustrated Townie do? Make up crazy theories. But, again, we just have no reason to believe there's anything at play here but what Bob has precisely told us is going on.

You can ridicule me for this if you want, but I don't think pouring scorn on someone for thinking is helpful. Maybe it's obvious to you, and you don't need to consider how the game works. You have certainly come up with crazy hypotheses in previous games. If you really think it's silly, that's fine, you can just say that, but it seems absurd to accuse me of being scum for it.

10 hours ago, Hinckley said:

You can see that I didn't even know her character name when I voted. If I had scrolled through and read the whole thing before voting, I could've seen the character name in Forg's post, but I didn't. I voted immediately after reading the post, then went back and read the rest. That's what I did. Apparently, you think that's ridiculous. I think you're bogging us down in one of the most trivial arguments ever, and why would it even make me Scummy if I didn't post the way I'm saying I did? Is there something Scummy about reading the thread, in order, and then voting when I did? Oh, right, right. Because I voted second. Well, I've told you I had no idea how many people had voted for her at the point I voted and that's the truth. What I find Scummy is that you keep insisting that I must have read the thread in order, because that's what everybody does. I often respond immediately to things I've read and then go back and read what's in-between. You can see evidence of it in my responses throughout this game. Or, since all of our posts merge now, what may look like I've gone through and read first, isn't. Why is this even a point to keep arguing over? I've explained how I read and respond to threads. I'm not lying about that. Or anything, for that matter.

Ok, I've said it before and I'll say it again and try to make it clearer:

Forg the Mighty (no sarcasm) made a case for Bev that consisted of what seemed like three things - a) the comment about bad logic, b) needlessly voting to extend the day and c) voting for an absent player (Riker). The comment about bad logic does not appear to be the thrust of the accusation, what with the jokey "Wut? OMG it was a trap! :wacko: " from Forg, and yet somehow, without reading Forg's post, you picked up on the "bad logic" comment and immediately just had to vote for him before doing anything else. And I don't think it's unusual, when bussing one's teammate, to attempt to distance oneself and dissociate oneself from them, hence the "didn't even know her character name when I voted".

10 hours ago, Hinckley said:

Because extending the day is a pro-Town move. We need the time to look at each other's behaviors and interactions and dissect their words, that's all we have. The more time we have for it, the better for us. You've taken half of my statement and argued it as the whole. Of course there would be no evil at night in a game without Actions, but my point is the end of the Day would still be a relief because you don't have to be "on" anymore and you get a break after avoiding being lynched. I have wanted the Days to last as long as possible and often felt up against the clock as Days Three, Four and Five were all drawing to conclusion without a lynch.

Again with this Pro-Town thing, like it's a mask you wear. Whoopee, you've extended days, so have I. Like I said, I didn't see the point in you even mentioning this.

10 hours ago, Hinckley said:

Again, you've taken half of my statement as the whole. I said I found myself in that position every Day after that. What I'm referring to is that I had the opportunity to un-lynch the person being lynched which would've allowed the Scum a night kill. And yes, I was in that position on Day Three, Day Four and Day Five. I don't know how anybody wouldn't be able to see that. Maybe you're desperately trying to take away one of my best points to convince Riker that I'm Town, with no argument. Because, it's right there for everybody to see, I found myself in that position repeatedly.

So you've been saving the town from having the scum killing at night, which is absolutely no problem for you to do when all you have to do is vote out a townie. If you'd been hammering scum to save the town from a night kill (and before you start shrieking I know Bob said there's only one scum) then this would be an actual point. Saving the town from losing a townie at night by losing one in the day is super easy if you're scum.

10 hours ago, Darkdragon said:

I'm beginning to think Wesley spent nearly 24 hours not showing up because why bother since I had already voted for you.

No, just busy. Deanna is an incredible player and not being here gave her an opportunity to respond to you without being unchallenged by me, which she took advantage of (and I don't blame her). I would rather have been here, frankly, but there we go.

10 hours ago, Hinckley said:

Odd that you would misrepresent this, when it's all there, in the open, for any of us to see the actual order of events.

It would appear I misrepresented it by not including that one small post, which was also equivocal, that occurred prior to the post I was talking about. The rest of it still stands.

10 hours ago, Hinckley said:

It always seemed odd to me that Wesley responded to this with "You realize she's gone, right?" Not sure why, but my point was the votes were being spread out and we weren't getting to a lynch, which is something Beverly loved doing in a previous game. That was my point. Not sure why things pings me, again, but I thought I'd point that out too.

"The vote tally today seems like Beverly is still in the game." - that's what you said and why I said "You know she's gone, right?". It seemed like you missed her.

Scummy old Bev could still only vote for one person, so there's really only so far she could spread her vote, so it's just an odd association. My ping of you, pinged you. How fun.

10 hours ago, Hinckley said:

Seems like I had three mentions of my thoughts on Data being Scummy. They were in paragraphs with other suspicions, but Data's behavior was bugging me the most on that day, as I mentioned, since his game play seemed so off. And then, Wesley switched from Picard to Data.

So I'm scummy for voting for someone you apparently found scummy? If Data's behaviour bugged you the most that day, why were you voting for me? And what does me switching from Picard to Data have to do with this?

10 hours ago, Hinckley said:

And could I have convinced Picard to vote for Wesley? I'm not so sure I would've been able to. Picard wasn't easy to read either, since he'd just had a personality-ectomy.

Are you kidding me? You've had many conversations with Riker just in this game about how people follow your vote (like you didn't already know). You are trying to claim you couldn't convince someone to vote for the most-voted-for person in this game? That's almost hilarious.

9 hours ago, Hinckley said:

Is this another misrepresentation of what we can all see are the real facts?

No, it's a hypothetical and a reasonable one at that. Especially if you go back and re-read what happened.

9 hours ago, Hinckley said:

I've put the discussion here from the day, but if you click back you can see that Picard's posts weren't conclusive of anything and none of the suspects on his list were Wesley. It did not seem he was going for it and I was very worried about getting it wrong, as I stated. The entire "Wesley is too smart to defend Beverly" was repeatedly winning me over, and Data was Scummy. There was an hour left in the Day and we needed to do something.

Forg said that your unwillingness to vote for me and continue to keep me around was what made him think you were scum. I'm not sure how this even helps - you get to either lynch me, or lynch Data or have a no-lynch where you can kill someone at night - any way it goes you get to kill off a townie. The big benefit in not lynching me after all is that I become the yardstick by which to judge everybody else. You get to say "I think X is scummier than Wes, even though I think Wes is scum, despite him defending himself against the initial ridiculous accusation, so we'll lynch X today" and rinse and repeat. It is the fallacy of continuing to say you think I'm scum for something that's already been defended.

9 hours ago, Hinckley said:

Looks more like I was asking him.

After you had said you'd do it yourself. Like an "I will, will you?"

On 2/29/2020 at 9:11 PM, Lind Whisperer said:

Assuming you and I vote Data, we'd need either @Darkdragon or @Fugazi.

"So do you think other people will join us if we do it?"

If at that point you had said "Nah, I think we should just lynch Wes like we planned and then lynch Data tomorrow if we're still here. Let's not risk there being a night-kill" I believe Picard would have said that you were right and done so.

9 hours ago, Hinckley said:

I'll admit I've said I wanted to lynch Wesley every day, but I obviously was convinced on other people. When you're in a situation where the person you want lynched is getting the votes and there are other suspicious people and you don't lynch someone the Scum get to choose who to kill, you have to achieve a lynch, at least that was my philosophy the past three Days. I was continuously thwarted by myself, as well, for not thinking Wesley would take that risk of defending Beverly on Day One, but I think she did and has been expertly convincing us otherwise, ever since.

We're back to me being so stupid as to say what I said about Beverly, in the context of her being my scum mate, on Day One, but so 'expert' as to be able to convince you otherwise for several game days. But you've also wanted to lynch me every day too. Because I'm so scummeh.

9 hours ago, Hinckley said:

And in the middle of this town-flail of lynching or allowing a night kill, all Wesley has to say about it is that Forg is Scummy. He's accusing him of lining me up for later, but isn't that what he ended up doing to Forg?

I wasn't in the middle of this at all. You've lied about this before and you're lying about it again. I don't even appear on page 3 of that day.

My last post where I quote Forg (the one to which you are referring) was me answering his accusations of me, not the other way around. At the end of the post I questioned his towniness, which is kinda common in a game like this, especially when you're Town and you feel persecuted. That is so very far from what you attest.

**Hinckley** · March 9, 2020

@Pandora Once again, the facts-that we can all see-are against you:

On 3/1/2020 at 1:04 PM, Pandora said:

As I've also already said, the events at the end of yesterday provided some clarity. Ironically clarity that you are now somewhat clouding. The fact that Riker has been willing to listen and evaluate evidence other than just about me, and the actions of Picard in conjunction with Data to prevent the scum from getting a night kill - well, that's one definite town (Data - we all wondered) and two likely townies. I know I'm town, and until this post I kinda thought you were too, so that left Forg.

Emphasis added. Weird that you say I'm making up things that actually did happen. How nefarious of me! Telling the truth about things that actually happened! *oh2* Picard-that's one definite Town and two likely townies. Pretty comfortable place for you to sit when the rest of us were all confused. Only Scum can confidently put people in the Town column like that, and it's not like you to place anyone in the "definite" town column when you're actually Scum-hunting.

Now, I'll go back and read the rest of your post, because I responded immediately to this paragraph without reading the rest, which is a thing I do. That's how I read the threads. Gotta say, if you are Town, which I highly doubt, your Scumdar is way off, because not only am I Town, I've been actively working in the Town's best interest the entire time. Not sure why you wouldn't be able to see that, unless it was convenient for you to feign it and try to get me lynched on the last Day, in order for you to win.

37 minutes ago, Pandora said:

Well, I think I've just responded to a lot of this: I haven't put anyone in any definite anything, so I don't know where you're getting this from.

Funny that definite was the exact word you used.

**Hinckley** · March 9, 2020

53 minutes ago, Pandora said:

Except I am and I have been considering the possibility Riker might be scum, and consistently on balance you come out much scummier.

But where? When? I haven't seen you look at Riker's actions very much at all. You definitely aren't today. It's like you're Scum and just need Riker to keep his vote on me, so you're just repeatedly digging into what I've said today and not really bothering to look into him at all. And you can pick apart, line by line, what I've said today but it doesn't seem like you're looking outside of my words today much, at all. You're quoting me today, but are you looking back at the rest of the game? Or are you just trying to cruise through this final 10 hours with me likely to be lynched and hoping you can do just enough to keep things where they're at?

**Hinckley** · March 9, 2020

1 hour ago, Pandora said:

You have bemoaned the fact that you can't lynch me on your own, even though you have often left it to others to front the charge. You follow them with a hand-wringing exercise of "it probably is, but it might not, but yes you're right it is". I can't lynch people on my own either, as it happens. I have been out making cases, pushing forwards and not hedging my bets like you, but I am not responsible for other people's votes, and I certainly don't hold as much sway as you do.

"Hedging my bets like you." pings me hardcore. I'm not sure why.

1 hour ago, Pandora said:

You can ridicule me for this if you want, but I don't think pouring scorn on someone for thinking is helpful. Maybe it's obvious to you, and you don't need to consider how the game works. You have certainly come up with crazy hypotheses in previous games. If you really think it's silly, that's fine, you can just say that, but it seems absurd to accuse me of being scum for it.

I'm not ridiculing you. I'm pointing out that this isn't typical behavior for you to come up with crazy game mechanics theories. How many times in this game have you told me I'm either dumb, crazy or Scum. Well, I'm not Scum so you're calling me dumb or crazy. That's fine. I can accept I'm either dumb or crazy. What I'm pointing out is your behavior is inconsistent. Even stringing together the way you've approached this game is not consistent with the Town-Wesley I know. It hasn't flowed together like one person trying to figure the game out. It's been stilted and all of your suspicions isolated in one single suspicion of conviction with people in definite or likely Town columns. What you're calling my "hand-wringing" and waffling has been me trying to figure things out, not trying to confuse anyone. I've been searching for clarity while you appear to have had it this entire game.

1 hour ago, Pandora said:

Ok, I've said it before and I'll say it again and try to make it clearer:

Forg the Mighty (no sarcasm) made a case for Bev that consisted of what seemed like three things - a) the comment about bad logic, b) needlessly voting to extend the day and c) voting for an absent player (Riker). The comment about bad logic does not appear to be the thrust of the accusation, what with the jokey "Wut? OMG it was a trap! " from Forg, and yet somehow, without reading Forg's post, you picked up on the "bad logic" comment and immediately just had to vote for him before doing anything else. And I don't think it's unusual, when bussing one's teammate, to attempt to distance oneself and dissociate oneself from them, hence the "didn't even know her character name when I voted".

That's the reason I voted for Beverly and that's the way I did it and the order I read the thread. Her statement pinged me and I voted. Nobody else had such a strong ping. Forg voted why he voted, I voted why I voted. What were you up to during this time? You were defending Beverly. What's Scummier? Me, voting second while not knowing what vote position I was in? Or you trying to save her and then accusing Forg later of bussing Beverly, when he didn't just vote, he made a solid case against her? And now I was bussing her, you say. But you didn't say these things until you had to find someone suspicious. You were so sure it was Forg on Day Four and that his vote proved that he was trying to distance himself, but when Forg turned up Town you didn't think I was Scum for where I voted, you didn't think any of us were Scum (because none of us were, you are) but when did you first mention my voting position on Beverly? It's not like you to pick up on Day One pings four days after the fact.

I am so freaking busy and I don't have the time to be doing this. Right now, I have to run and I'll do my best to respond later. Most of the rest of this post, you're repeating things you've already said and I've already answered to. Riker, I want you to see that Wesley has stated many mistruths about what I actually said and what he actually said. I can post the things he said on one day next to the things he's said today and you can see that he is not telling the truth. I've been questioned repeatedly here and can answer for everything with the truth. I haven't lied about anything. I'm Town. If you're Town and you leave your vote on me, we will lose. I was asked several times yesterday about perceived inconsistencies and I've demonstrated how my thoughts evolved throughout the game. Wesley's thoughts haven't evolved, they've popped up out of nowhere to stop herself from being lynched. I doubt even more that you're the last Scum because I don't think you would put Wesley and I through all of this posting and slog on our time to get through the last Day.

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