TRAIN TECH Help, General Questions & Talk to the Staff

[Phil B]

20 hours ago, dr_spock said:

They are both good for beginners.  They have all the components and PF parts to run straight out of the box. 60052 has a bit more tracks like switches that 60098 doesn't provide. I bought 60052 for a play set but then it slowly turned into a good parts pack to MOC other trains and things.

 

You forget to mention one benefit of 60098 over 60052: It has a helicopter....

18 hours ago, Alexg22 said:

My current high speed train will finish around 8 cars in length. I'm guessing I'll need 2 PF to power this length?? If so can I hook it up to the same IR receiver so that they are controlled as the same time? 

 

I think you'll get the best performance with 2 PowerFunctions motors. Try putting them in the same car of the train, joined using a pole switcher  (due to the way the powercables are designed, you need to mount one backwards - the pole switch basically undoes that reversal), tied to the same IR receiver channel and button (red or blue). That way both motors run at the same speed all the time, and act like a single motor, just with double the power.

[Alexg22]

1 hour ago, Phil B said:

You forget to mention one benefit of 60098 over 60052: It has a helicopter....

I think you'll get the best performance with 2 PowerFunctions motors. Try putting them in the same car of the train, joined using a pole switcher  (due to the way the powercables are designed, you need to mount one backwards - the pole switch basically undoes that reversal), tied to the same IR receiver channel and button (red or blue). That way both motors run at the same speed all the time, and act like a single motor, just with double the power.

Hero thanks I'm on it!! Can't wait, I mean my son can't wait to have this layout ??

[Peppermint_M]

Forgive me if this has been asked, but can a motorised train be created for this:  track? I bought the Alien Conquest mothership, so I have a full circle of this stuff to work with. I had an idea of a smaller kiddie-train ride sort of build for a display.

I have two ideas: some form of central motorised wheel in the tender, as the small gauge wheels can't be fitted to the right axles. Though I am concerned that there might be friction issues on the track "sleepers" .

Or: A central motor and an arm that links to the train and pulls it along. (Which would fit the kiddie-ride look). But may face issues of its own and will certainly affect my design. 

If anyone has any experience, suggestions or ideas I would be grateful. 

[Duq]

Hi Peppermint,

Using one of the PF motors it's possible to create a train that fits on the 4-wide track. See this for example:

bogie by Space2310, on Flickr

If you want to do any more than a circle you're going to be in trouble though: straight track doesn't exist in 4 wide...

[Peppermint_M]

Thanks for that, I will see if I can build it! The circle is fine for my purposes, I have wanted to build something train-ish to go on it for quite a while and then the idea of a motor popped into my head.  

[dr_spock]

3 hours ago, Peppermint_M said:

Thanks for that, I will see if I can build it! The circle is fine for my purposes, I have wanted to build something train-ish to go on it for quite a while and then the idea of a motor popped into my head.  

Here is something Hod Carrier built for 4 wide locomotive.  It has picture of how the PF can be laid out.  You can put the PF battery box in a separate car if you need more battery life than a 9V battery can provide.

 

[Peppermint_M]

That's helpful, thanks for the link. 

[jtlan]

20 hours ago, Peppermint_M said:

Forgive me if this has been asked, but can a motorised train be created for this:  track? I bought the Alien Conquest mothership, so I have a full circle of this stuff to work with. I had an idea of a smaller kiddie-train ride sort of build for a display.

I have two ideas: some form of central motorised wheel in the tender, as the small gauge wheels can't be fitted to the right axles. Though I am concerned that there might be friction issues on the track "sleepers" .

Or: A central motor and an arm that links to the train and pulls it along. (Which would fit the kiddie-ride look). But may face issues of its own and will certainly affect my design. 

If anyone has any experience, suggestions or ideas I would be grateful. 

See my narrow-guage train for a self-contained implementation. It's somewhat tall, however.

[DEAD1974]

Hi all,

I like to start to build LEGO trains, but I am still not sure what is better.

RC or 9 volt or 12 volt?

RC looks nice but the idea of using tons of batteries is a bit strange. I know that the 9 volt is discontinued but still looks more friendly, as I was playing HO scale model trains as a kid.

So if someone would be so nice and can tell what are the +/- for both of them it will be really helpful for me.

Thanks

 

[Rail Co]

Hi DEAD1974,

The all have their upsides and downsides so it is mainly what you prefer. I am going to give you all the things I think are good and bad about them and then let you decide what is best for you and what you enjoy.

First I will talk about RC/PF Trains:

Pros: You do not have to clean the rails because you don't have to worry about electricity conducting through them. They are very user friendly and use simple controls (they are good for kids). They are still readily available and fit in well with the whole "City" theme. You can use rechargeable batteries with them so you do not have to constantly buy batteries.

Cons: A lot of the room is taken up by the battery box and receiver making it extremely difficult to make shunters/switchers, but it can be done. Rechargeable batteries can be expensive and you have to be able to get the battery box out every time you need to charge them unless you want to pay the hefty $50 for the official Lego pack. Also you have to be close enough with your remote control or you can lose connection (This I haven't had a problem with it just depends how big your layout is).

Now to talk about 9v

Pros: You can buy a motor, track and transformer and you are good to go, it's basically plug and play. You don't have to worry about changing batteries and have complete freedom of designing only around the motor and not bulky battery boxes and receivers. I have also never had to clean 9v track unless it was very well used.

Cons: It is a lot more expensive, it is about $40 for a decent motor and anywhere from $2-$4 PER straight track. Also the wires are becoming brittle with age and the plastic coating wears a way causing short circuits.

I don't know if you want me to discuss 12v or not.

Hope this helps!

-RailCo

[Duq]

Hi DEAD1974,

Quite the username... This is one of the recurring questions about Lego trains. The consensus is: if you have seriously deep pockets then by all means, get into 9V. Otherwise don't bother and use Power Functions.

9V track is expensive and that's likely to get worse with time. 9V train motors are expensive and are getting more rare - the electric motors inside do not have eternal life. 9V is expensive now and will only get worse.

12V has the nostalgia factor and the remote control switches and signals. Unfortunately it has the problems of 9V but worse and on top of that the track is fragile (the clips that hold the rails to the sleepers tend to break). 

[BubbaFit45531]

I also prefer not to deal with batteries and potential leakage mess.

Is there a currently available cheap wind-up motor part?

[dr_spock]

I use rechargeable batteries since some of our LUG events with trains are outdoors (no A/C outlets). I recharge before each event.  When event season is over, I take the batteries out of the battery boxes before I store the trains away.  It is best not store the remotes and battery boxes with the batteries inside for months in order to avoid leakage problems.

 

 

[BubbaFit45531]

I saw a YouTube vid of a Lego technic beam gear rubberband wind-up motor, and I'm going to attempt to make one, then try to make one that'll fit inside a 6 wide train chassis. I know it's no replacement for Power Functions, but it'll be a fun learning process.

[DEAD1974]

Hi,

thanks for all the answers and explaining. So far it seems for 9 Volt. I have few more question. Is it possible with 9 Volt to run at once more trains but with a different speed?  Is it possible somehow to use together the 9Volt motor with RC? I mean that the loco will take the power from rails, but will be controlled by RC?

Thanks

 

[Duq]

I hope you're good with tools and soldering...

Running multiple trains on the same loop while controlling them separately is not possible. If you want that you'll need to invest in a DCC system and build DCC units into your train motors.

If you want to use RC control with 9V power from the track you could modify a 9V motor to work as power pickup or make your own metal wheel sets for power pickup. Either way is going to take a good bit of work.

[Xris]

6 hours ago, BubbaFit45531 said:

I also prefer not to deal with batteries and potential leakage mess.

Is there a currently available cheap wind-up motor part?

Hi,

just search for "pullback motor" on bricklink. As far as I've seen, they are all below 1$.

Xris

[Daedalus304]

I'm going to throw in some more information, since I feel like PF trains are really being undersold here.

I'm going to headline with an extraordinary claim here and say that as a whole, Power Functions is without a doubt the key to all around more realistic and more powerful locomotives. I make this claim for several reasons: Variety of motorization choices, better power, finer speed control, more operation options on your lines, wider variety of track configurations, and better railyard options. Seriously, in all of these Power Functions wins just about hands down, and I'll tell you why:

1. Power Functions has 4 different motor types to choose from, the PF train motor being a more powerful equivalent to the one and only 9v motor option. These different motors have different rotational speeds and torques to choose from, and the M, L, and XL motors can all easily be geared up or down to help get the perfect Power/Speed ratio you need. The 9v motor's power and speed are both tied to the track voltage, so if you want your locomotive to travel slower you're taking a proportional hit to your power as well. The way the PF electronics work, you get much more power at lower speeds and you can specifically build slow, lumbering powerhouses that can pull ridiculous amounts of weight. Also, because the limited choice of 9v motor, many steam locomotives classes are off the table unless you either build a powered car or forego using proper drivers with moving rods. A 9v 0-8-0T that moves under it's own power with rods is not going to happen. 

2. Having each engine under their own power means you can have multiple engines on the same line that don't have to be doing the same thing. If all you are wanting is a simple loop or two and are fine with that, then 9v is okay. But if you want two trains to share the same loop for any amount of time with a 9v setup, then they need to be headed the same direction at the same speed. If you have, for example, a branch line that shares a short run with the main line before branching off again, perhaps into a yard, it can be very tricky to make sure that your engines are okay to be synced up or that you're not going to cause an electrical short. Again, if you're just looking for something simple like a loop or only want to run one engine at any given time then this is very nearly a non-issue; but multi-engine operations on more complex layouts are PF's stompin' grounds.

3. Most of the time the biggest points awarded to 9v over PF are these: It's easier to use 9v because the PF electronics are bulky, and changing out batteries is annoying. These are both true. But, IMO, the advantages start and end there and they are not the achilles heel for PF that they are made out to be. There are many good examples to be found of incredibly compact and amazing looking steam and diesel engines built with Power Functions. It is more difficult, but the challenge is well worth the effort. Not every engine can be built realistically with PF, but 9v is even more limited due to the single style of motor. As for the batteries, I have found that even my most power-hungry engines can get nearly 4 hours of life off a set of batteries. You can invest in some rechargeable AAA batteries, or if you don't want to partially disassemble your locomotive then the PF Rechargeable Battery Box is great. It's expensive, yes, but 9v Train motors are very expensive and are only going to get worse, so IMO it's a fairly close race price/value wise. If you are just starting out, the amount of money you're going to spend buying old 9v motors plus the incredibly expensive 9v track is going to far, far out-pace the cost of the initial PF investment. 

4. Third-Party options are right now another thing PF has going for it. Custom track is starting to make a (relatively) large boom in the LEGO train community. Wider radius turns and switches are showing up all over, and all-plastic has the double-whammy advantage of wider variety and significantly lower costs. The only 3rd party manufacturer I know of who has 9v product right now is ME Models, and their metal track requires special adapters to connect to the LEGO stuff. The 9v options will expand down the road, of course, but they will always be more expensive. Also in the PF Playground you will find S-Brick and BuWizz, bluetooth controller alternatives to LEGO's Infra-Red Offerings. These are both more expensive than the default PF equipment, but they offer even more options and opportunity for realistic, powerful control. And, if you are down for making the trade-off for price vs compactfullness (Note: not a real word), The BuWizz is both a super-powered rechargeable battery AND receiver together in one unit, a whole brick shorter than the PF battery box. This should be relatively easy to hide in almost any train out there, even 6-wide diesels with 4-wide hoods can probably hide this thing behind the fuel tank. 

Power Functions isn't always the easiest, but it is incredibly rewarding. I understand that it's not for everyone, and these forums are filled with die-hard 9v fans who have their reasons for sticking with it. My intent here was to offer a wider perspective on the seldom-mentioned strengths of Power Functions. In the end it all comes down to what your goals and intentions are, and if none of the strengths of PF are worth the extra effort to you and 9v sounds like it's what you want, by all means do go the 9v route.

I've made a lot of extraordinary claims above, so before I go I'm going to leave a few links to some Power Functions locomotives.

Small PF Steamers:
Bricknerd's 2-4-0t Prussian Steamer

Jayhurst's Vulcan Iron Works 0-4-0T

Medium-Sized Steamer:
Cale's CNJ 4-6-4

Large Steamers:
Shupp's Erie Triplex   Video

Tony Sava's Hudson & Shupp's Triplex

My Santa Fe 4-8-4

There are plenty of great 9v engines out there as well, of course, and I heartily recommend checking out Carl Greatrix, Swoofty, and Steinkopf for a good variety of 9v stuff. Either way you go, welcome to the LEGO train community and I wish you the best of building and happy tracks ahead! :D

Edited May 8, 2017 by Daedalus304

[DEAD1974]

Big thanks Daedalus304,

huh... so now after all these examples, it seems more likely for PF, but how about rail signs? Is there a solution for them in PF? As I can imagine how it works in 9V, but how are they supplied in PF? Also you are mentioning some 3rd party manufacturer for PF track and switches, so is there among them so called "the best manufacturer", or do I have to try them myself and than make a decision ?

Thanks

 

[Duq]

If by signs you mean signals that actually make a train stop, that can't be done with PF unfortunately...

[Trekkie99]

9V is the easiest. But once you get over the fact that the battery box and receiver are large and possibly difficult to work with, you'll find that the pf system is the answer. It's efficient, and the possibilities don't stop at the premade train motor. M, L, and XL motors can also be used to add locomotion to your trains, as well as a variety of other functions. The pf system can also be used for different forms of locomotion, such as monorails. Masao Hidaka on YouTube makes some fantastic monorails, which are entirely custom built including the track! Here's his YouTube channel. 

https://m.youtube.com/#/user/MasaoHidaka

Hope this helps.

[DEAD1974]

OK you convinced me PF is the choice, my only issue with it is the plastic look of tracks...but as I have seen on videos LEGO train builder use the 9V style trucks with PF trains. So probably I will try to make that mix too.

3 hours ago, Duq said:

If by signs you mean signals that actually make a train stop, that can't be done with PF unfortunately...

yes that is what I was thinking about, so as it seems I cannot have everything ... but nevermind

[Daedalus304]

10 hours ago, DEAD1974 said:

Big thanks Daedalus304,

huh... so now after all these examples, it seems more likely for PF, but how about rail signs? Is there a solution for them in PF? As I can imagine how it works in 9V, but how are they supplied in PF? Also you are mentioning some 3rd party manufacturer for PF track and switches, so is there among them so called "the best manufacturer", or do I have to try them myself and than make a decision ?

Thanks

 

For signals and such it's probably cheaper and simpler to run your own LEDs to the lights whether you use 9v or PF. The only LEGO train system that really had good support for signals was the 12v system.

For 3rd party track, right now there are a couple that each have different types of products at the moment but they all seem to be working towards supplying a larger variety.

ME Models (Injection Molded) has 4 larger turn Radii that they offer
4DBrix (3D Printed) has some modular switches coming out very soon, narrow gauge track, some switch motorization options, and some stuff for signals
BrickTracks (Currently 3D Printed, plans for future Injection Molding) has larger radius turns, larger radius switches, and more.

I've only got some of the ME Models stuff, and the wider radius turns are really nice to have. It comes in individual parts like the old 4.5v and 12v rail systems which brings a few tricky things into the mix regarding rail stability, but just a little glue on the rail tie/connector or a good sturdy ballasting will keep them in line. I'm very interested in 4DBrix's upcoming modular switches as well as the BrickTracks switches, so I think it's likely you'll probably find opportunities for all of them.

Also, not track related - if you're going to be building steam engines I would heartily recommend you check out Big Ben Bricks. He sells high quality, injection molded steam engine drivers in more sizes than LEGO offers. If those sizes or styles still aren't enough for you and you're okay with spending a bit more, Shupp has a ton of other 3D Printed drivers you can order off of Shapeways. I haven't tried these myself but they look gorgeous. And last but far from least, hunt down Zephyr1934 and take a look at his fantastic custom drive rods.

EDIT: Oh, and as Duq has reminded me, third party PF controllers as well:
SBrick - Bluetooth Receiver, pretty much a straight up replacement for the standard IR receiver with 4 ports instead of 2 and a little extra power to the motors, though still limited by the LEGO battery box output
BuWizz - Bluetooth Receiver/Rechargeable Battery Box combo, a higher power battery box than what LEGO offers with more capacity as well, with the bluetooth receiver built in. 4 ports like the S-brick, and the same dimensions as LEGO's AAA or Rechargeable Battery box except one brick shorter.
PFx Brick - New controller coming soon that can use either IR or Bluetooth. Has support for a wide variety of accessories including lights and speakers. Also, since it was made with Trains definitely in mind it has a lot of neat motor control options for starting and slowing with more realistic speed curves.

I haven't tried any of these yet, but BuWizz is the one I'm the most excited for due to the extra power and much smaller amount of required space. The price is pretty high, but it's basically the same as a LEGO rechargeable battery + an SBrick so it's not unreasonable. The PFx bricks modular add-ons are definitely going to give it a good boost in the variety department, too.

 

Edited May 8, 2017 by Daedalus304

[Duq]

Don't forget SBrick (and possibly PFx Brick in the not too distant future) as an alternative to the PF Receiver.

[Daedalus304]

Oh right, I knew I was forgetting something. I've added a couple links and short write-ups in my last post just to keep the 3rd party stuff all together.

Now that I've gone through all of this stuff it's actually amazing just how many 3rd party options there are now for us train guys. What a time to come into the hobby!

Edited May 8, 2017 by Daedalus304