2020 Mindstorms set

[jonwil]

So what, this new Mindstorms set is LESS powerful than the EV3 but it has a higher RRP?

 

[AVCampos]

It's not necessarily less powerful. It's better in some aspects and worse in others.

[Toastie]

5 hours ago, Lok24 said:

You can use pyBricks and run your developement on any device under Chrome for the PoweredUp Hubs

Well, I made up my mind.

I go with Legoino (Cornelius Munz' open source software available on GitHub). Fully disclosed - nicely documented - evolving.

No smart whatever devices for control/programming required, just plugin to Arduino IDE and off you go. ESP32 boards run below 10€/$, allow you to do whatever you want, and that is my world. C source code, fully open, does not get any better

But that is only my personal preference - I simply don't like "blocks", smart devices, Python - whereas others do love them! I have learned programming, when the "Kernighan and Ritchie" book was close to a bible. That may explain it all ...

Best
Thorsten

 

[jrx]

Hi, since the new Mindstorms App is out I tried to connect it with my Spike Hubs. And what should I say? It seems working. I stopped the connection when the app asked to install a new firmware onto my Spike hub.

Best jrx

[Jim]

Just now, jrx said:

Hi, since the new Mindstorms App is out I tried to connect it with my Spike Hubs. And what should I say? It seems working. I stopped the connection when the app asked to install a new firmware onto my Spike hub.

Best jrx

Yeah, you need to swap firmware if you want to use Spike on the Mindstorms app. I'm really surprised it apparently uses a different firmware. Seems totally unncessary to me, but there will probably be a good reason.

[jrx]

Just now, Jim said:

Yeah, you need to swap firmware if you want to use Spike on the Mindstorms app. I'm really surprised it apparently uses a different firmware. Seems totally unncessary to me, but there will probably be a good reason.

Agreed. As I fear I can't go back to Spike Firmware (and I need it for university) I'll won't change it. But it would be really exciting to see the difference between both.

[AVCampos]

The EV3 also uses different firmware for home and education editions, so I'm not surprised that so does SPIKE.

So, unlike the angular motors, where the grey and azure versions have different HW IDs, it would appear that the teal and yellow SPIKEs really only differ in colour.

[Jim]

2 minutes ago, AVCampos said:

The EV3 also uses different firmware for home and education editions, so I'm not surprised that so does SPIKE.

Yeah, but you can hook them both up to the same software, right?

Maybe because the limited storage capacity, TLG wants to avoid having unused functions in the firmware or something. I still think it's strange.

4 minutes ago, jrx said:

Agreed. As I fear I can't go back to Spike Firmware (and I need it for university) I'll won't change it. But it would be really exciting to see the difference between both.

As far as I know, you can simply switch back by hooking it up to the Spike software.

[jrx]

1 hour ago, Jim said:

As far as I know, you can simply switch back by hooking it up to the Spike software.

Have you tried? ;)

[Gimmick]

1 hour ago, jrx said:

Have you tried? ;)

Atleast the technic and train hub have a "update" mode in which the hub requests a firmware flash. The mode can be activated by pressing the on-button several seconds until the light flashes purple. Video at the bottom of the page: https://docs.pybricks.com/en/latest/start_pup.html 

If the spike prime / mindstorms hub has the same behavior it *should* :D be save to try a firmware change.

[jrx]

Thx @Gimmick Will try it maybe the next days

[GrandiJoos]

A user commented on this video starting that he did so without problems:

 

I would need doing it the other way round (spike firmware on the 51515 hub) if there won't be official Python support, since the spike hub has it through the education software.

[AVCampos]

With the massification of the SPIKE hub through the 51515, I believe it's only a matter of time before fans start making their own firmwares and IDEs that support it.

(I would still like full EV3 support on Bricx Command Center, though)

[Philo]

1 hour ago, AVCampos said:

With the massification of the SPIKE hub through the 51515, I believe it's only a matter of time before fans start making their own firmwares and IDEs that support it.

Yes: https://docs.pybricks.com/en/latest/hubs.html#prime-hub-spike (not yet tested here yet!)

[Jim]

I have published my review. I'm sure I missed a lot of details and there is still lots to be discovered, but I hope I touched the base and provided some insights.

[jrx]

I was much more curious than anxious. So I tried it out and can confirm: You can swap firmware of the Spike Hub from Spike to Mindstorms and back :D

[Gimmick]

1 hour ago, jrx said:

I was much more curious than anxious. So I tried it out and can confirm: You can swap firmware of the Spike Hub from Spike to Mindstorms and back :D

[angelool]

It seems like the pdf instructions have been live somewhere on LEGO.com Great to be able to take a look first before deciding to buy 51515 or not.

 

 

[GrandiJoos]

8 hours ago, Jim said:

I have published my review. I'm sure I missed a lot of details and there is still lots to be discovered, but I hope I touched the base and provided some insights.

Hi Jim, great review!

One question though, did you try programming through Python? Is this done using the spike education windows/mac app? Or are there other options for the 51515, like MS Visual studio code integration?

[Jim]

14 hours ago, GrandiJoos said:

Hi Jim, great review!

One question though, did you try programming through Python? Is this done using the spike education windows/mac app? Or are there other options for the 51515, like MS Visual studio code integration?

I have tried to program using the Mindstorms software. 
 

There is an extension for vscode, but it’s not like the EV3 extensions.

https://github.com/sanjayseshan/spikeprime-vscode

[sulu86]

The new robot inventor supports pybricks. Those are basically lego endorsed micropython bindings for the spike/prime. So you can get a flavour of python on these devices but not cypthon (normal python). Micropython is basically a reduced version of python that misses many features of cypthon but runs a lot faster and is thus more suited to less microcontrollers like the 100 MHZ controller of the spike prime / robot inventor hub. So you need to check if you require certain libraries from python like numpy or scipi or certain other functionality as you may be setup for disappointment in that case.

There is only 32 mb of memory on the microcontroller. Some people on reddit have reported running out of memory for simple FLL style micropython programs. You will have tune your code a lot for efficiency with the new lesser potent hardware.

Edited October 11, 2020 by sulu86

[GrandiJoos]

On 10/11/2020 at 8:23 PM, sulu86 said:

The new robot inventor supports pybricks. Those are basically lego endorsed micropython bindings for the spike/prime. So you can get a flavour of python on these devices but not cypthon (normal python). Micropython is basically a reduced version of python that misses many features of cypthon but runs a lot faster and is thus more suited to less microcontrollers like the 100 MHZ controller of the spike prime / robot inventor hub. So you need to check if you require certain libraries from python like numpy or scipi or certain other functionality as you may be setup for disappointment in that case.

There is only 32 mb of memory on the microcontroller. Some people on reddit have reported running out of memory for simple FLL style micropython programs. You will have tune your code a lot for efficiency with the new lesser potent hardware.

Two questions:

1) I guess you mean 32Kb memory? 32 Mb seems to be a lot if you're not using media.

2) could anyone indicate the difference in functionality between pybricks and the Python supported from the Spike education software? It seems different, so where do the features (or programming approach) differ? 

Counting down the days till I can pick up my 51515 set :D

Edited October 13, 2020 by GrandiJoos
Grammar

[jrx]

2 hours ago, GrandiJoos said:

I guess you mean 32Kb memory? 32 Mb seems to be a lot if you're not using media.

Specs (from Spike Prime Hub which seems to be technically identically):

• ARM Cortex-M4 (100 MHz)
• 320 kB RAM
• 1 MB Flash (Operating System)
• 32 MB memory (User Space)

[jonwil]

Its clear that one of the goals when making the new Mindstorms programmable brick was to reduce the cost of the programmable brick over the one in the EV3 (lower spec microcontroller, not having an LCD, stuff like that) and probably they also wanted to reduce the battery usage as well.

 

[sulu86]

Its not just the lower specs. The whole experience is like a downgrade if you're interested in more than casual toylike use.  What I mean is that the EV3 is being used in so many different environments. It can be used at home as well as education environments from beginner stages with graphical programming to very very advanced robotic stuff. There are custom operating systems, universities are using them for computer science. Master thesis have been written on projects that were built on Ev3. Autonomous robots that can scan rooms and make maps. You could attach a couple of them together to have more input/output options or you can interface them via python modules to more powerful pcs to offload some serious calculation work. Theres been mapping projects with useage of lidar scanners, depth sensing cameras etc, You can connect them to a single board computer like the raspberry pi via usb and basically use the ev3 as a pure i/o adapter if you want. Custom ev3dev linux gives you all the options. 

The newer product offers minor improvements in sensors/peripherals but is lacking all of the versatility of the old product.

 

What I dont get is Legos strategy. On the one hand the 31313 set has been taken off the shelves here, but on the other hand the marketing guys are advertising this as a product sitting between wedo and ev3 thats acting as a sort of preparation for the ev3. Afterall it says so pretty clearly on the lego website. But if that was the case, why discontinue 31313?