Giant tractor

[Maaboo the Witch]

3 minutes ago, Sariel said:

 

Don't be discouraged, Sariel. I'm with you on this one.

[nerdsforprez]

8 minutes ago, Sariel said:

Didn't know that 2 comments constitute a "series". Yes, I'm getting discouraged again and again from commenting here because any form of criticism, however mild, is unwelcome on EB. To the extent that you guys fail to help others because helping would mean pointing out some errors. Until my first post here literally the only comment was "Wow...", whereas the author of this thread obviously needed help. But no, not here. I actually remember some builder showing his crane model a while ago, which was pretty decent, but the author kept misspelling "outriggers" again and again. And it went for 2 or 3 pages if I remember correctly, with not a single soul offering a correction because that would be IMPOLITE. I'm nowhere near being arrogant, I'm just dead tired of your endless drama whenever a comment is posted with anything other than praise in it. Come to think of it, I think it's pretty arrogant to be able to help someone correct their errors but deciding to look the other way. And yes, my first post sounded unpleasant, but look at the pic it was referring to. I'm pretty sure that most people viewing it had the same thoughts I did, they just remained silent.

Be honest, you don't want me commenting on EB, you just want me shoveling praise left and right. Anything other is considered unsavory.

Wish I could take this all as sincere but sorry, I cannot.  You are far too brilliant to be posting so much nonsense.  And I truly mean that.... as a consumer of your work for the past decade, I can tell you are a very smart individual. 

But this is drivel.  Helping and showing off your acumen are different things.  If you wanted to help I know you are bright enough to think of a better way to put things.  In your own words you were aware of the struggle (i.e. " I had a hard time thinking of how to comment on your suspension") and yet decided to go with " Do me a kindness and take it apart, please", "complete randomness of it", "hurts my eyes", "not massacre it" shows you failed in thinking how to comment (and yes, this is a "series").  Also, it demonstrates that you weren't really trying to help.  This language sounds much more like mocking to me.  And the fact you are trying to package this into some sort of "helping" wrapping paper and now are trying to play the victim is risible.  I wish it were due to stupidity.... but like I said it is not.  You are far too smart for that.  This is due to arrogance. And I truly doubt you were trying to help.  Poke fun, make an example, show your acumen, perhaps.... but such are not the same as helping. 

Do you ever make any recommendations on threads by other builders that possess similar talent?  I mean the big-timers?  Perhaps.  Admittedly I don't know.  But I rarely, if ever see anything from you on tough threads from like perhaps @Didumos69, @Jeroen Ottens's, or many others really talented builder's threads.  It seems like you pick at the soft balls, the lobs that are easy to knock out of the park. When it is easy to show what a "prolific" (your words) Lego builder you are. 

Lastly, can we stop the whole EB doesn't allow for criticism gripe?  It is sooooo passe.  Others have tried it as well and it is such a limp excuse.  There are so many, many great threads where folks engage in pages and pages of positive criticism, constructive feedback, etc. to end up on a final result. There are SO many threads where help is given.  REAL HELP. Not just attempts for talented and knowledgeable builders to flex their muscles in the faces of those who perhaps struggle.  God forbid you actually have to use some of your great language skills and diplomacy to get your point across without appearing caustic.  If that is such a difficulty for you that is not a reflection of weakness of the site that is a reflection of weakness of you. 

 

[howitzer]

Let's focus on my MOC and how to improve on it, please no more commentary on anyone's attitude or whatever in this topic.

@Sariel Thanks for drawing the pic, I'll try to fix the geometry. Although, even the geometry as it is now isn't problematic at all in practice, as the axle touching the connector only happens at the very end of the movement. But I guess it's better to attempt to build it right to eliminate as much potential problems as possible.

59 minutes ago, Maaboo35 said:

One thing that's bothering me about this build is the rear axle lifting up the chassis. Traditionally tractor bodies are completely level and the suspension is minimal. You're putting too much effort into that. Focus more on a system that can power implements, or distributing the weight better.

Well, there was an explicit wish to have it "bouncy" so realism isn't really the point here. But yeah, I think I have now what I need to finish the suspension and can get on to building something functional for it, and to make it look nice.

[nerdsforprez]

3 minutes ago, howitzer said:

Let's focus on my MOC and how to improve on it, please no more commentary on anyone's attitude or whatever in this topic...

[TeamThrifty]

1 hour ago, Sariel said:

you just want me shoveling praise left and right. Anything other is considered unsavory.

You're totally correct. Anything but praise is cause for people to be offended - not just on EB, but in society in general. Its the snowflake mentality.

And that has nothing to do with anyone's perceived 'ranking' on this forum. Its a fact and @Sariel is right to point it out (and if people don't like it, it kind of proves the point!), people spit their dummy and get all offended at anything other than total agreement with their own opinions.. its the petty world we currently live in.

[Sariel]

I could spend hours explaining how there is nothing I could possibly gain for myself by commenting on a post like this, and how "prolific builder" simply means "one who builds a lot" in my dictionary (doesn't really apply these days) so I have no idea how it could possibly have offended you. But you clearly know my intentions and every thought better than I do, so I'll just pass. I've been building for some 13 years straight and the idea that I need to come to EB and bash someone to feel better about my building is, frankly, not even ridiculous - it's just odd. I could also remind you dozens of EB threads that immediately went off the rails the moment someone's comment looked vaguely like a criticism. Or threads started by 10-year-olds who didn't know how to post a picture or to write a post. But I really have better things to do. Plotting my evil masterplans is a time-consuming business ;) (PS. Of course I don't try to recommend anything to big-timers. Now, THAT would be arrogant.)

That being said, I apologize to @howitzer for making my remarks sound derogatory and disrespectful. There is really no justification for it, but I was struck by how very wrong your initial design seemed to me. I should have, of course, offered suggestions in a very different manner. I can only say that being a dedicated builder, it pains me to see stuff like that. But hey, we all start somewhere.

Also, this is my last comment on someone else's post at EB. Let's solve the problem at its core, because apparently my mere being here is an issue to some people. I will either suspend the account completely or just limit myself to starting my own threads, haven't decided yet. Peace!

Edited June 19, 2020 by Sariel

[TeamThrifty]

@Sariel and the rest of this forum... if the good and helpful of this forum are driven away by the 'offended snowflake' minority then whats left isn't worth logging in for. If any member of this forum feels compelled to not participate then the group collective needs to look very hard at itself. Criticism, if constructive, should be welcomed. Those that can't handle that are the ones that should perhaps reconsider their involvement...

... and this has nothing to do with how good a builder you are, how many posts you make, how long you've been on the site. Everyone should be as welcome and valued as everyone else. In a word, Kindness. Whats wrong with a grown adult that they throw a strop at constructive criticism? Are they like that in real life or just behind a keyboard? The industry i work in - software - moves so quickly that virtually everyday i speak with someone about how best to do something. And they may correct what i've already done, or i might correct them, but no one sulks about it.. because we're grown ups.

I would urge everyone who is an adult and enjoys learning from the experience of others to stay active on the site and smoother the nastiness with kindness, whether its your first post or your 2052nd... Kindness should be the winner here, not nastiness driving good people away.

..just my thoughts.

[howitzer]

1 hour ago, Sariel said:

I could spend hours explaining how there is nothing I could possibly gain for myself by commenting on a post like this, and how "prolific builder" simply means "one who builds a lot" in my dictionary (doesn't really apply these days) so I have no idea how it could possibly have offended you. But you clearly know my intentions and every thought better than I do, so I'll just pass. I've been building for some 13 years straight and the idea that I need to come to EB and bash someone to feel better about my building is, frankly, not even ridiculous - it's just odd. I could also remind you dozens of EB threads that immediately went off the rails the moment someone's comment looked vaguely like a criticism. Or threads started by 10-year-olds who didn't know how to post a picture or to write a post. But I really have better things to do. Plotting my evil masterplans is a time-consuming business ;) (PS. Of course I don't try to recommend anything to big-timers. Now, THAT would be arrogant.)

That being said, I apologize to @howitzer for making my remarks sound derogatory and disrespectful. There is really no justification for it, but I was struck by how very wrong your initial design seemed to me. I should have, of course, offered suggestions in a very different manner. I can only say that being a dedicated builder, it pains me to see stuff like that. But hey, we all start somewhere.

Also, this is my last comment on someone else's post at EB. Let's solve the problem at its core, because apparently my mere being here is an issue to some people. I will either suspend the account completely or just limit myself to starting my own threads, haven't decided yet. Peace!

I thank you for your apology, even if I took no offense on your first comment because as you said, you have nothing to gain by bashing beginners on their horrible assemblies. Even if your comment wasn't directly helpful, it pushed me to think of something else so my next iteration came out much better. I really appreciate your contributions to the community and the designs you share so I hope you stay active here in EB too.

[domleg]

Sariel being a queen... It's not exactly news, is it?

[Mechbuilds]

1 minute ago, domleg said:

Sariel being a queen... It's not exactly news, is it?

There is a difference in saying:

Oh there are so many errors on your design. Let me point out how this and this part doesn't work because the parts would be fighting each other and stressing parts to breaking. 

instead of saying

Your stuff hurts my eyes. Please be kind and disassemble it.


It's nothing about saying huff you're just a snowflake and can't take criticism. It's just being mean. 
But i guess being famous on the community and being one of the "big builders" out there means that you can't possibly do anything wrong yourself.
howitzer is a newbie to this forum, let's be honest. It's very discouraging to be chewed on by saying your build literally hurts my eyes, it's that bad.
Yes he is an adult and actually can take it. But what if it was a 10 year old posting hes first ever moc and thinking he was actually innovative and creating something new that nobody else though of. Then being told off by one of the biggest community members to pretty much not even try.  

[nerdsforprez]

Let's honor @howitzer's request and leave things be.  He and @sariel resolved things and there seems to be no animosity among the two.  Kudos to both of them.  @sariel has always been a great contributor to AFOLs, to say anything else would be disingenuous.  He made some caustic remarks, but he and the OP resolved them.  Time to move on.  

The issue was never about "offering criticism" - anyone who can read knows that.  Of course @mechbuilds is right there is a difference between....well what he wrote.  And about the snowflake comment.... again, not even worth a comment.  There was no over-sensitivity problems at all anywhere... which is what that term refers to.  Nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade.  That is not over-sensitivity.  That is clarity. 

To the OP, I am glad that you got something from the feedback. That is what it is all about.  Hopefully your project progresses into something your child really enjoys.  Keep up the building... I am you learned something in all this....

Back to the MOC!

 

[CrankyCraig]

@ Sariel. FWIW I found the brutal honesty in your original comment both comical and refreshing, but I can also understand how others may have perceived it differently.

I've lost count of the amount of times my child proudly presented paint splatter on a piece of paper (as I'm sure your's will soon enough) and I've not even known what it was supposed to represent. What I really wanted to say was 'WTF is this %$*#. Stop wasting my time, kid'. Occasionally, I managed to say something more positive.

That response isn't entirely without merit, but if you're hoping to successfully develop the child's interest in painting and build self-esteem, certain responses are more useful than others. By sacrificing just a little of the honesty in favour of diplomacy, it's possible to still deliver an opinion in a way that encourages them to improve, and doesn't elicit a negative emotional response at the mere sight of a paintbrush. If only I'd realised this sooner, my child may still be interested in painting. 

Of course, most of us(?) aren't children here, but the same basic principle applies to encouragement and development whether you're dealing with a child or with adults.

You're like the Michelangelo or Leonardo Da Vince of the Technic medium (the artists, not the green-shelled variety) , and although most of us will never be able to create the amazing things you can, the entire community benefits from your shared wisdom and knowledge, and to not have that would be a tremendous loss.

 

 

Edited June 19, 2020 by CrankyCraig

[suffocation]

Torque tube aside, have you got the parts for this? https://bricksafe.com/pages/hateofallhatreds/ideas/axles/floating-axle---no-ackermann

It can be adapted for portal axles and Ackermann steering and it's beautifully bouncy. I used an older version on my off-road tow truck.

 

[howitzer]

8 hours ago, suffocation said:

Torque tube aside, have you got the parts for this? https://bricksafe.com/pages/hateofallhatreds/ideas/axles/floating-axle---no-ackermann

It can be adapted for portal axles and Ackermann steering and it's beautifully bouncy. I used an older version on my off-road tow truck.

 

I don't have those springs, but maybe this design could be adapted to fit the 6,5L ones, which are the only springs I own (in hard and soft varieties). I don't have the PF servo either, but I din't plan to motorize this thing anyway so that's not a problem.

[1980SomethingSpaceGuy]

I for one would second @Sariel on this; I much prefer a good slap in the face pointing the flaws in my build than a deadly silence that leaves me with the illusion of having devised something decent. And the latter tends to be common here, which I deplore.

We're all adults; we can take a bit of criticism. What would be unacceptable is to comment negatively with absolutely no clue or details and never visit the thread again. It's not what happened.

And I couldn't agree more with @Maaboo35: tractors don't have much suspension, if at all. @howitzer : maybe you could keep it simple for now, and continue building the rest of that giant tractor?

[Mechbuilds]

Only suspensions tractors have is on the drivers chair. 

They usually have a swing axle on the front. 

[Erik Leppen]

On 6/19/2020 at 7:37 PM, Sariel said:

Also, this is my last comment on someone else's post at EB. Let's solve the problem at its core, because apparently my mere being here is an issue to some people. I will either suspend the account completely or just limit myself to starting my own threads, haven't decided yet. Peace!

If you would do that, you'd just declare the whiner's victory. Please don't do that. I'd much rather have somewhat snarky but honest comments showing actual critiques trying to improve and teach, than "ohhs and ahhs" every time someone shows a work in progress. Critique is what drives a learning community (in my view).

I guess I should have jumped in stating "I agree with Sariel" before someone started acting against him... (but I'm not much of a "I agree" person.) It's funny how critiquing a build seems to be a no-go, but going head-first on someone who critiques a build is seemingly perfectly OK (no moderator has stepped in yet, as far as I can see).

 

Anyhow, about the geometry. While I agree that it's not correct, I don't think it's "ruining axles" because the CV joint allows for some leeway because the axle can slide. It's the same way the Bugatti and Sian sets use this sliding effect to move their differential to nonstandard positions. The problem may be that it relies on this sliding motion, meaning the only way the drive axle is kept in place is by the friction of the U-joint part. Similarly, there is nothing stopping the CV joint part from sliding out the differential (which only needs 0.5 stud movement to stop working). How will that hold during play?

Second, while the geometry is indeed not correct, with a virtual pivot steering I don't think a "geometrically correct" way even exists. The distance between the two points is variable and cannot be made constant, that's a consequence of having a virtual pivot. So while the problem exists, I don't see it easily solvable using the current setup.

Other thing I notice is that there's currently nothing holding the steering connection of the hub in place (the gray 2x2 axle joiner on the drak-tan 5L axle). It's only held by friction, which means it will slide off during play. Not the first time, but a little bit each time.

Third, I'm not a fan of how the springs are mounted. The problem is that you're using really-strong but short springs mounted in a specific way to increase the travel. While understandable (and it's a shame Lego does not provide much-longer springs), it creates a big force on the surrounding elements. Using weaker longer springs would reduce forces that would be tearing the parallelogram apart. Also maybe it would be better to mount the springs much closer to the wheels, which again would reduce forces on the whole thing when the suspension will be compressed. I'm just afraid you get an awful lot of bending in this setup, especially torsional when the suspension is compressed and the wheels are steered at the same time.

Maybe it would be better to just go with a live axle. I.e. the solution of the 42111 Charger set's rear axle, or the crawlers. Or 42043, the reference set for many things :) That way, the "steering motion" and the "vertical motion" can be "discoupled" (the steering rack will be on the suspended unit) meaning you have more control over each.

[howitzer]

9 minutes ago, Erik Leppen said:

<snip>

Anyhow, about the geometry. While I agree that it's not correct, I don't think it's "ruining axles" because the CV joint allows for some leeway because the axle can slide. It's the same way the Bugatti and Sian sets use this sliding effect to move their differential to nonstandard positions. The problem may be that it relies on this sliding motion, meaning the only way the drive axle is kept in place is by the friction of the U-joint part. Similarly, there is nothing stopping the CV joint part from sliding out the differential (which only needs 0.5 stud movement to stop working). How will that hold during play?

Second, while the geometry is indeed not correct, with a virtual pivot steering I don't think a "geometrically correct" way even exists. The distance between the two points is variable and cannot be made constant, that's a consequence of having a virtual pivot. So while the problem exists, I don't see it easily solvable using the current setup.

Other thing I notice is that there's currently nothing holding the steering connection of the hub in place (the gray 2x2 axle joiner on the drak-tan 5L axle). It's only held by friction, which means it will slide off during play. Not the first time, but a little bit each time.

Third, I'm not a fan of how the springs are mounted. The problem is that you're using really-strong but short springs mounted in a specific way to increase the travel. While understandable (and it's a shame Lego does not provide much-longer springs), it creates a big force on the surrounding elements. Using weaker longer springs would reduce forces that would be tearing the parallelogram apart. Also maybe it would be better to mount the springs much closer to the wheels, which again would reduce forces on the whole thing when the suspension will be compressed. I'm just afraid you get an awful lot of bending in this setup, especially torsional when the suspension is compressed and the wheels are steered at the same time.

Maybe it would be better to just go with a live axle. I.e. the solution of the 42111 Charger set's rear axle, or the crawlers. Or 42043, the reference set for many things :) That way, the "steering motion" and the "vertical motion" can be "discoupled" (the steering rack will be on the suspended unit) meaning you have more control over each.

Thanks for you insightful comments. I was indeed relying on the sliding motion of the CV joints to counter the effects of incorrect geometry, but I think that part is fixable so that the sliding travel is at least a lot shorter.

I think the steering connector will stay in place much better if I turn the dark tan 5L axle other way around, as then the end stop will prevent the connector sliding out and in the other end the high-friction connectors will help to keep the axle in place. Or maybe I'll try to invent some other type of steering arm, if it the sliding out becomes a problem during play.

The springs indeed are problematic due to their short travel but I'm not sure what I could do to solve this issue, short of getting a new set of springs (48912 maybe? but those are very expensive). I created the virtual pivot steering specifically to minimize the torsional forces during steering so I hope what's left of the torsional stress isn't a problem. At least the pivot is now at the edge of the tire, instead of couple of studs inboard.

Live axle solution might be my next step if the current basic design doesn't work out, but I had a bit of a real-life testing on the other day and the entire assembly held together very nicely.

Last few days have been busy with the midsummer's eve and all so I haven't had the chance to implement new fixes but I hope to get something done today or next week.

[Jim]

On 6/19/2020 at 10:23 PM, nerdsforprez said:

Let's honor @howitzer's request and leave things be. 

Back to the MOC!

Agreed, let's get back to the MOC!

[TeamThrifty]

4 hours ago, Mechbuilds said:

Only suspensions tractors have is on the drivers chair. 

Not true... John Deere and Fendt have twin wishbone front suspension, all other brands have some kind of front suspension too...

[Mechbuilds]

4 hours ago, TeamThrifty said:

Not true... John Deere and Fendt have twin wishbone front suspension, all other brands have some kind of front suspension too...

Don't nitpick son. We all know the point i meant. 

[TeamThrifty]

17 minutes ago, Mechbuilds said:

Don't nitpick son. We all know the point i meant. 

I do and it was inaccurate.. you said they don't, when in actual fact virtually all of them do... Son. ?

 

[Mechbuilds]

22 minutes ago, TeamThrifty said:

I do and it was inaccurate.. you said they don't, when in actual fact virtually all of them do... Son. ?

 

I didn't claim tractors don't have suspensions. 
Since you're going to be a nitpicker and act like you do not understand sayings like for example: "beat around the bush" or "break a leg"
Then let me tell you. There is a saying that "The only suspension a tractor has is the seat" Meaning old timy tractors that had large springs under the driver seat. They usually were very rough to drive and the help from that seat was pretty much better than nothing. 

If you're trying to build a tractor for your kid to play with, the only "suspension" it would need would be a swing axle in the front. That way you get maximum durability and at least some offroad capability. 


But i know you knew what my point was and just wanted to feel better about yourself that you made a person over the internet "learn a fact".  

Thank you i guess?

Edited June 21, 2020 by Mechbuilds

[agrof]

@howitzer I would make the axle design as simple as possible. Considering the necessary and given tolerances in Technic system, the more parts you throw into a structure, the more slack, unsecured connections will be added. Honestly, I would start with proven designs by LEGO (f.e.: 8110) and/or check this very useful topic to gather some ideas:

 

[Maaboo the Witch]

"Keep it simple". It's a phrase espoused by TLG's own Alfred Pedersen, and will serve you well, @howitzer.