Are smaller flanges possible on larger radius tracks?

[SteamSewnEmpire]

I'm working on another diesel right now, and - once again - I am butting up against the unavoidable truth that there are no decent wheels out there (either from Lego, or - as far as I know - independent sources) for projects like this. The stock Lego 57999s are fine for cars, but almost all diesels utilize a larger diameter wheel.

The problem is, if you shift up to something like Shupp's mediums, not only are the wheels then slightly too large (or, more accurately, the flanges are so large and visible that they wind up making some models look cartoonish [where the wheels are really exposed - I love Shupp's stuff; I buy from him a lot]), but you run into the problem of what to do with the gigantic flanges. I find this problem less of a headache with steam locomotives because drivers don't need to turn, running boards can be used to hide the flanges, etc... but, with diesels, there's just no overcoming it.

My question is: if someone (not me) were to design a medium or sub-medium wheel with a smaller flange specifically intended for use on larger radius track... would that work? I know the big flanges are necessary to keep the trains upright on the very tight Lego-brand curves... but once you get up to, like, club-sized layouts, would that still be a problem?

Edited July 6, 2020 by SteamSewnEmpire

[CrispyBassist]

The flanges play a large role in switches too. If I'm not mistaken, the wheels are flange-bearing across the gaps in the frog, which is a technology the real railroads use too, even to the point of eliminating flangeway gaps in some frogs:  

Lift Frog by Matt Csenge, on Flickr

Some variety in wheel sizes could be useful though. Like you said, locomotives have larger wheels than freight cars, autoracks have smaller wheels than typical freight cars, I'm sure there's more variation as well. 

[SteamSewnEmpire]

21 minutes ago, CrispyBassist said:

Some variety in wheel sizes could be useful though. Like you said, locomotives have larger wheels than freight cars, autoracks have smaller wheels than typical freight cars, I'm sure there's more variation as well. 

I mean, I've been utilizing bogies to disguise the size of the smaller wheels... but wheel size is also sort of the starting point for scaling (at least for me). When I start measuring a model's bogies, I begin with the wheels, but frequently find myself having to go back and make changes because things were off from the get-go. It's just frustrating :(. 

[coaster]

Short answer: no.

As Matt said, the flanges are load bearing across the frogs of switches and cross-tracks.  Smaller flanges could be used on a simple loop without these things, but would otherwise require unique track components and discreet lines, separate from the normal flanged rolling-stock.

EDIT:  When modeling, don't start with the wheels, rather start with a defined scale.  The wheels are reasonably acceptable at 1:48, 1:42, or 1:38, so once you know that it's much easier to then scale a drawing or picture accordingly.

Edited July 6, 2020 by coaster

[M_slug357]

@SteamSewnEmpire You should look up @jtlan ‘s posts about scale & lego trains. It’s pretty good stuff despite myself not being a scale modeler.

[Jeffinslaw]

Psssstttttt, go check out bricktraindepot.com. We have larger sized wheels designed to be used with modern diesels. 

-Jeffinslaw

[dr_spock]

If you have a lathe, you can re-profile your LEGO train wheels.  Not sure how small a flange you can go. Most likely you will to adjust your train speeds to avoid derailing in switches and curves. 

[SteamSewnEmpire]

4 hours ago, Jeffinslaw said:

Psssstttttt, go check out bricktraindepot.com. We have larger sized wheels designed to be used with modern diesels. 

-Jeffinslaw

Where? All I see a bearing wheels and big boy wheels.

[Jeffinslaw]

Paging @supertruper1988

[supertruper1988]

24 minutes ago, Jeffinslaw said:

Paging @supertruper1988

I dont have them out yet but soon. 

Edited July 7, 2020 by supertruper1988

[monai]

The flanges in LEGO are ridicolously high, they need to be so high because of the poor geometry of the rails and the points, they are conceived for children not for railways model, if you want something more realistic you should foreseen a change in rails system too, take a look at:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/80185479@N07/albums/72157710841800331

but it's a LOT of work!

perhaps changing the scale and using G scale rails would help, see:

https://bricksafe.com/pages/Tenderlok

 

Edited July 8, 2020 by monai

[Coal Fired Bricks]

I was thinking about selling scale tracks switches and wheels with NE Brickworks but that has been put on hold because of the Brick Train Awards.  But I don't know if that would be the best idea because the two systems wouldn't be compatable and for Lug Layouts that could be a major problem, and it will cost a lot of $$ to convert everything to Scale tracks and wheels.

[supertruper1988]

10 hours ago, Coal Fired Bricks said:

I was thinking about selling scale tracks switches and wheels with NE Brickworks but that has been put on hold because of the Brick Train Awards.  But I don't know if that would be the best idea because the two systems wouldn't be compatable and for Lug Layouts that could be a major problem, and it will cost a lot of $$ to convert everything to Scale tracks and wheels.

This sounds cool, but at what point is it not LEGO?

I would love smaller flanges but there a particular appeal to running on LEGO track that keeps it in the hobby for me. This proposed solution is more along the lines of scale model railroading which isnt bad just not really in the realm of LEGO, you know?

[Daedalus304]

11 hours ago, Coal Fired Bricks said:

I was thinking about selling scale tracks switches and wheels with NE Brickworks but that has been put on hold because of the Brick Train Awards.  But I don't know if that would be the best idea because the two systems wouldn't be compatable and for Lug Layouts that could be a major problem, and it will cost a lot of $$ to convert everything to Scale tracks and wheels.

I think that if I were to build anything for a track that's not compatible with regular LEGO track, I'd probably rather just go for one of the other pre-existing model railroad tracks. O-Gauge or G-Gauge are both fairly close and readily available.

[SteamSewnEmpire]

26 minutes ago, Daedalus304 said:

I think that if I were to build anything for a track that's not compatible with regular LEGO track, I'd probably rather just go for one of the other pre-existing model railroad tracks. O-Gauge or G-Gauge are both fairly close and readily available.

Pricey, though. I think Lego track - even custom stuff - is still cheaper than the larger-gauge track. That's part of what has stopped me from switching to 2-rail O - the hobby is just prohibitively expensive when you go big.

49 minutes ago, supertruper1988 said:

This sounds cool, but at what point is it not LEGO?

Well, frankly, a purist would tell you that any custom part isn't Lego - custom steam locomotive driving wheels; custom track; custom sails for pirate ships, etc. Given the exceedingly limited toolkit Lego provides us with when it comes to model railroading, I think you have to just leave baggage like that behind at the door. It's not our fault that we don't have the pieces - it's theirs. You can design your way around the vast majority of problems in this hobby, but wheels and track aren't one of them. At some point, if you want something that's done properly and functions, Lego's box of tricks will be empty. 

[supertruper1988]

1 hour ago, SteamSewnEmpire said:

Pricey, though. I think Lego track - even custom stuff - is still cheaper than the larger-gauge track. That's part of what has stopped me from switching to 2-rail O - the hobby is just prohibitively expensive when you go big.

Well, frankly, a purist would tell you that any custom part isn't Lego - custom steam locomotive driving wheels; custom track; custom sails for pirate ships, etc. Given the exceedingly limited toolkit Lego provides us with when it comes to model railroading, I think you have to just leave baggage like that behind at the door. It's not our fault that we don't have the pieces - it's theirs. You can design your way around the vast majority of problems in this hobby, but wheels and track aren't one of them. At some point, if you want something that's done properly and functions, Lego's box of tricks will be empty. 

I can understand what you are saying but I am asking where the line is drawn? 

The wheels from BBB were brought into the LEGO system (at least the L sized driver) for the emerald night. The track options that are available match the look and feel of LEGO track but replacing all that will a more "scale" option would start to go out side of LEGO to me. 

I wasnt attacking here just asking, how far is too far? 

 

What is stopping us from just going to this? https://www.maerklin.de/en/products/details/article/44734/

[Coal Fired Bricks]

3 hours ago, supertruper1988 said:

This sounds cool, but at what point is it not LEGO?

I would love smaller flanges but there a particular appeal to running on LEGO track that keeps it in the hobby for me. This proposed solution is more along the lines of scale model railroading which isnt bad just not really in the realm of LEGO, you know?

I agree there is a fine line between the dumbness of Lego and true scale. I want to look at my models and say that is a true scale model but the warm inviting Lego bricks keep me from building a styrene house,  But from the other point we have different sized wheels, side rods, track. Why can't we have a scale track?

 

Those are my thoughts.

[Thai bricks]

I don't think "we" draw a line anywhere. Everybody has to decide for her/himself.

[SteamSewnEmpire]

6 hours ago, Thai bricks said:

I don't think "we" draw a line anywhere. Everybody has to decide for her/himself.

I mean, some of the best space mocs I have ever seen shamelessly use third party parts, and I feel like those builds are a lot more flexible (since the people are making the designs up as they go). 

[gotoAndLego]

On 7/8/2020 at 9:29 PM, supertruper1988 said:

I can understand what you are saying but I am asking where the line is drawn?

That line is subjective. Some people want it to primarily Lego with a few exceptions, while others just want as much realism as possible.

Edited July 15, 2020 by gotoAndLego

[Sixpence]

As someone who actually tried it - do you need special track for smaller flanges? well no, the gaps in between the frogs on the points are just small enough to allow small flanged regular-sized wheels to roll over. It's not the smoothest transition as you go over but it works. I also had a steeper wheel slope so that there was less rubbing and the wheels sets centred correctly.

If the wheels were about 2-3mm larger the bump probably wouldn't be an issue. If you scaled the interior of the wheel up to 20/21mm diameter and had and the flange at 23mm diameter that would put the wheel in the ballpark of running nicely over the frog gap in the points. 

I'm not really sure how the large train's wheels would go with a smaller flang - I don't have a platform to test those on at the moment; as my two emerald night sets are broken down and used for other projects. 

The main reasons I decided not to go with custom wheels with smaller flanges was:

• I originally had 3D print warping issues where the print wouldn't stay flat on the bottom
• It was easier to order the wheels and axel sets from BrickTracks than to source the axels and have 100 or so wheels printed on a 3d print farm.

 

Edited August 5, 2020 by Sixpence