Technic 2021 Set Discussion

[weavil]

12 hours ago, vectormatic said:

but if someone with my experience can be hit by this issues

This seems more common then you think. On other sites people were/still get that jamming issue. So it seems like a "Make it work and ship it!" Issue with the Defender.

[Vectormatic]

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Edited July 1, 2021 by vectormatic
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[Maaboo the Witch]

1 minute ago, vectormatic said:

someone at lego ducked up

Yeah, but the Defender kinda pales in comparison to TLG's biggest cock-up of recent years... namely, the Osprey. 

Here's hoping the CAT hasn't been pushed back to October for the same reasons as the Liebherr... though it is interesting that Technic has had four waves this year. Wonder if that's gonna be the trend going forward. If TLG keeps up with the bloopers, it just might be.

[kbalage]

8 hours ago, Maaboo35 said:

Here's hoping the CAT hasn't been pushed back to October for the same reasons as the Liebherr... though it is interesting that Technic has had four waves this year. Wonder if that's gonna be the trend going forward. If TLG keeps up with the bloopers, it just might be.

I don't see why it couldn't be a strategic decision to spread the sets more evenly through the year. The scheduling of the Defender for October was definitely not a pushback in 2019, I guess they simply saw it working and decided to split the 2nd wave. I like this approach more, especially because I don't need to rush with all reviews the same time :) 

[rm8]

 

56 minutes ago, kbalage said:

I don't see why it couldn't be a strategic decision to spread the sets more evenly through the year. The scheduling of the Defender for October was definitely not a pushback in 2019, I guess they simply saw it working and decided to split the 2nd wave. I like this approach more, especially because I don't need to rush with all reviews the same time :) 

because generic AFOL gets income once a month, so best is releasing sets monthly)

[Jim]

And let's not forget there are things like production capacity, warehousing etc. Maybe that has something to do with it as well. Like @kbalage I am a fan of multiple waves 

[allanp]

10 hours ago, vectormatic said:

I know the issue is common, and it is also oddly random, some people have no problem at all, some people are unable to make it work at all.

 

To me, even for AFOLs, the Defender is a bad set, if the design apparently allows for some as yet to be discovered production variance or whatever to completely ruin the experience (i rage-sold the half built set) for even someone experienced who was warned beforehand, and took precautions not to make common mistakes, someone at lego ducked up

I still suspect it's slightly bent axles. When I first built a brand new 42009 with fresh batteries the outriggers would not work. Years later I built it again but this time I built a tester (a row of eight 1x2 technic bricks sandwiched between two 2x8 bricks so their holes aligned to create a hole 8 modules deep) to test the axles. I would then drop an axle through this hole to see if it fell through freely and many axles failed. I fear this maybe unavoidable unless they are going to pre-test every single axle they produce and then pack them in their own little boxes to prevent them bending in the box.

Using only axles that passed this test the outriggers of 42009 worked as well as seen in any online video. Still not great but they worked. I believe this is because, in a complex mechanical system that has no proper bearings, any point of extra friction will cause additional friction down the line, and the friction will keep multiplying. I'm just not sure that the incredibly complex gearboxes if sets like 42009, the Sian and the defender are wise in an all plastic toy with no bearings.

So I see two options (which aren't exclusive, they could do both). Firstly they could greatly simplify their gearboxes. The real life gearboxes of the Sian and defender are nowhere near as complicated as their technic counterparts. They are mostly just an input and output shaft with all the different ratios created by different sized gears on these two shafts. The only other option would be to introduce things like bearings and machined straight metal axles!

I know people can build different versions of these gearboxes that manage the friction better, but still they are highly complex, all plastic, bearingless systems that can still fail should some axles arrive that are too bent. I feel that this shouldn't be acceptable. I mean, they colour code everything to look like knex (garbage), but they won't release all the different sizes of clutch gears to make realistic and reliable gearboxes, so even if an eight year old can build an 18+ set perfectly it still might not work? 

Well, this post went on longer than I expected!

Edited June 23, 2021 by allanp

[J159753]

40 minutes ago, allanp said:

I still suspect it's slightly bent axles...

I've seen third-party sites advertising carbon-fibre and steel axles. I assume these are far more resistant to torsion and bending than ABS plastic. Would they solve some of these problems?

[Vectormatic]

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Edited July 1, 2021 by vectormatic
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[Seasider]

I prefer it when we have releases spread over a year. Often easier to explain / justify my Lego spend to the better half 🤣

[allanp]

2 hours ago, vectormatic said:

@allanp I hadnt heard of that angle yet, could very well be it.

The thing is though, ive build tons of technic sets, including the GT3 and Chiron, and those do not exhibit the problem. So either Lego is screwing up with their quality control (as they did with the colour on quite a few sets recently), or something in the defender is subtly different from how similar complexity gearboxes are designed for the Chiron etc...

 

All in all, it has made me much more weary of buying new large technic sets, colour issues on a €370 set to me are a dealbreaker, and having to worry about if the thing will work probably out of the box will have me noping out of a €180 purchase as well. I very much enjoyed 42125, but im not sure lego can entice me into a new UCS scale technic set.

I think it's a bit of luck. Some people have issues with the Sian/defender, some less so. If slightly bent axles are at least partially to blame then this might explain why. But if such small and possibly unavoidable variances in axle straightness or other such unknown quality issues are enough to make the difference between a set working nicely or not at all, then there are more fundamental issues and changes needed. Instead of forcing/expecting TLG designers and MOCcers alike to expertly tip toe around and problem solve these issues to often insufficient levels of success, better to have some investment into the new parts needed to tackle these issues head on and for good.

[howitzer]

There are a lot of things which can cause issues with the gearboxes, like carelessness during construction, misalignment of U-joints, the tan bevel gears (which caused a lot of discussion at some point), bent axles, dust collection and probably many other things. Each of them might be small and not problematic on their own but the thing is that they compound each other, and very soon you'll have a gearbox that just doesn't work. So while simpler models work well with no problem, with complex gearboxes it gets to a point where no amount of fiddling will help the issue and most people won't even try proper fixes and just abandon the model as a dust collector on the shelf or take it apart. Proper bearings and better gearbox elements would solve a lot of these issues but somehow I don't see TLG being interested in investing into these (especially the bearings) so we're stuck with the parts we have, and sometimes issues can be fixed with clever design and careful construction, and sometimes not. The defender is a cool model, but the gearbox is just too complex to work properly with the possibility of all these issues appearing.

[Bartybum]

Didn't jb70 redesign the Defender's drivetrain to work just fine? My understanding was that it was the abundance of U-joints that caused all the backlash

[chlego]

3 hours ago, Bartybum said:

Didn't jb70 redesign the Defender's drivetrain to work just fine? My understanding was that it was the abundance of U-joints that caused all the backlash

I believe there are also a lot fewer gears in there, to essentially achieve the same.

[Jim]

Two sets just arrived at my home. Actually, I am looking forward to building them! It's been a while since I built (and reviewed) a Technic set.

[AVCampos]

3 minutes ago, Jim said:

Two sets just arrived at my home. Actually, I am looking forward to building them!

This one and this one?

[Maaboo the Witch]

29 minutes ago, AVCampos said:

This one and this one?

You've been reading off my wishlist. I envy Jim. 

[Ngoc Nguyen]

That means no cancelled set this wave, yay!

[Jim]

1 hour ago, AVCampos said:

This one and this one?

Wow, I didn't think anyone would guess. You can probably tell why I am excited 

[Akbalder]

When will you be able to talk about them?

[AVCampos]

Most likely only after the embargo date. I don't remember what it is (@Sariel might have mentioned it on Facebook), but I think it's around mid July.

[Maaboo the Witch]

54 minutes ago, AVCampos said:

Most likely only after the embargo date. I don't remember what it is (@Sariel might have mentioned it on Facebook), but I think it's around mid July.

It's the 16th of July.

[Jim]

1 hour ago, Maaboo35 said:

It's the 16th of July.

Yup 

[Dylan M]

5 hours ago, Ngoc Nguyen said:

That means no cancelled set this wave, yay!

Not yet, it's too early to cancel a Set, 1month and 6days to go, TLG knows how to make it an Epic(Fail)...😉

[Ngoc Nguyen]

The date for pre-order for the August wave is also July 16th. Coincidence?