New 9v motor

[supertruper1988]

53 minutes ago, SteamSewnEmpire said:

The mistake wasn't in the switch to batteries... it was making the rechargeable batteries rare and more expensive.

I don't think most Lego train folks would mind PU and PF so much if it didn't require constantly cracking open their models (even if you provide for it in the design, almost every loco needs some amount of fiddling to accomplish this) to replace the damned batteries (which are themselves costly over time). Moreover, we can't just run most batteries until they're dead - once the 'flashlight begins to dim,' out go the old ones, and in come a fresh set. 

What modern modelers want is the flexibility of battery systems (and the cheap track + lack of potential shorts) with easily-chargeable, port-based packs that can be 'topped off' at any time with a simple plug placed into a socket. This is the direction that the mainstream model railroading will almost certainly go - Lego should, frankly, already be there.

this right here. I dont care as much about batteries if I had a way to charge them easily. The PF LiPo was really rare and expensive. I have 2. One from LEGO and one I paid $100 for after the stopped making them. 

I have devoloped my own way to do track pickups but I still need to have track from FX Track before I can commit to converting my 11 9V motors and making my power pickups for my steamers. 

[aawsum]

I would be interested in just a new motor that fits in the 9v motor unit. For me it all works all fine now, but I am running out of (v motors because the small motor inside gives up and I have not found a replacement yet.

[Silly_donkey]

Sounds like most people that would be interested are looking for replacements for dead or broken motors. I know repairs to the existing 9v motor are not super easy. Opening the case and finding motors that fit is troublesome. PF motors can be donors if you don’t mind sacrificing them. 
 

The new drive that I’m thinking about will have a 12v motor installed with generic gearing. Not a replacement for the 9v internals but a new stronger motor. 

[zephyr1934]

New powered train motors is a neat idea, but a huge gamble. One of the best things abut 9v was the fact that you only needed one truck for power, no need to hide a controller or huge battery in the model. Folks have adapted to hiding the battery and receiver, that is an easy trend to reverse. But with the ability to use other motors, folks have started building other drive systems, including steam locomotives powered via the drivers. Along with that, a lot of (if not most of) the heavy duty builders have started building trains that are not R40 compatible. So you would need wide radius curves and switches.

I've got plenty of 9v trains and I still design my 50-60 stud long cars to navigate R40 geometries, but without wide radius curves I'm not going to build much 9v. Right now the only thing a new motor would do would be eliminate the fear of burning out my old motors.

Even with wide radius curves the 9v system also has a lot of problems. I was a power user back in the day. The resistance at rail joints every 5 inches meant that the train went dangerously fast past the power drop and then crawled on the opposite side of the layout. (yes, I then used more power drops and even used more controllers). Foreshadowing a few points I will make later, I don't think power connecting wires are in the first round of FxTrack offerings; and the rail-joint resistance could be a killer for DCC (folks have done home built DCC for 9v so I know it can be done, but they might have also made accommodations for the rail joints)

 

On 10/2/2020 at 8:06 AM, Silly_donkey said:

Aftermarket 9v track is becoming available again. ME Models, Ok Brickworks, FxBrix, BrickTracks all are trying. But nothing has really been done for the motors/drives.

Before you go too far, do some research on the Fx Track system. Michael Gale's plan already includes motors and potentially DCC control. New 9v motors would be contingent on his track (or someone else making the leap). If the key to his success is also to sell motors, as a community I don't think we want to undercut that provider (that is my 2c) and if the key to your success is to sell enough motors to make the model railroad manufacturer happy, having two suppliers competing for a very small market is asking for trouble. And what if the Fx track never makes it to market? I think model railroad manufacturers would be a great option for L gauge, but whatever first steps they take should be well thought out to ensure success.

 

On 10/2/2020 at 8:06 AM, Silly_donkey said:

What I’m thinking would be something similar to the 9v motor that is already in existence. It’d be a “drive”. 4 metal wheels on 2 axles that are geared with a motor. 4 wires on the motor so you can add DCC or charge a battery, add lights or whatever. All in an abs enclosure. 

The 9v lego train motor was an amazing piece of engineering. The running surface of the wheels have traction bands, so it is not metal on metal for the actual propulsion. While the power pickup was from the side using sprung flanges. I was at Michael Gale's presentation at Brickworld 2019 and I THINK he mentioned that when he gets to the motors he is going to replicate that approach.

Any successful lego train motor is likely to need traction bands or a lot of weight in/on the motor

 

 

On 10/2/2020 at 9:01 AM, coaster said:

It's a fine idea overall, but there aren't enough of us to make it viable.  You're talking about a huge capital investment without enough of us LEGO train nerds to warrant it. Not to mention, it'd be an entirely new system, so you'd have to convince everyone to effectively start over, which will be a tough sell.

Yes, the market today is small (there are at least three aftermarket Lego train suppliers on this thread who have hinted as much). I think Fx is in it for the long haul to try to grow the market, hence their system approach. As a consumer I hope they succeed, but to me it looks like a gamble.

 

 

 

On 10/2/2020 at 9:18 AM, Silly_donkey said:

What about the other way around? An O gauge drive to mount Lego on?

I think this one is potentially a winner.

O-gauge drive with a lego pin on the top would likely get a lot of attention. It would also provide a gateway for model railroaders to wander into Lego. Of course you would need two more components: O-gauge wheel sets (ideally with ball bearings) and lego compatible O-gauge coupler mounts.

While it is a very small sample, I have collected a small fan club of O-gauge modelers who love my lego trains. And I have also adapted to live in their world.

What's more, many of the custom instructions out there could work on day one with such a system. If you made sure the system could retrofit to the city trains then you probably have yourself a winner here because it would bring in a lot of the O-gauge market and they are far larger than the lego train market.

Just one suggestion, you want to do it right, so solicit feedback from the train builder community. There are a lot of things that could be improved over the current lego train components (e.g., a 1x4 plate with a coupler mount on the side) and special care needs to be taken to ensure that the system would work even if the components do not have the clutch of normal lego (nobody can match the clutch tolarance of Lego)

Oh, and also taking care to figure out either to use traction bands on the drive wheels or how to get enough weight so that metal on metal will pull the train. If you need weight on the drivers you will probably want weight bricks too.

 

 

On 10/2/2020 at 10:46 AM, Silly_donkey said:

...And maybe that’s where the “just give up and use Powered Up” mentality comes from.

Powered Up as it exists today is a huge step backwards from PF for trains (I say this accounting for the lack of a "charge in place" battery, poor performance of Bluetooth at shows, and the new plastic axle wheels). So that actually creates an opportunity to strike with a better system. But it would have to be an entire system.

Fx is one approach, while O-gauge is another

 

 

On 10/2/2020 at 10:46 AM, Silly_donkey said:

Has anyone besides coaster mocked up a truck that would hold standard model train wheels and axles? 

A lot of people have. The most common variant is to gut a dead 9v motor and turn it into a power pickup, but I've seen at least half a dozen folks make their own power pickups other ways too.

 

 

 

21 hours ago, supertruper1988 said:

You will want to look at what FX Track is proposing. You will need a complete package. For anyone still on 9V they likely have motors and backups. Everyone else moved away around 2010 when LEGO stopped metal track production. 

As Coaster said, there is no real market for it. 

As noted above, I'm pretty sure motors are in the plans for Fx

 

 

21 hours ago, Silly_donkey said:

Model trains have been using metal rails since 1906. More than a hundred years. Seems like there would be a market. 

Actually, I know a portion of G scale is moving to battery and I think there is some O gauge as well. Presumably the drive is to avoid the hassles of maintaining constant power around the loop (clean track, loss of continuity, etc.)

 

 

20 hours ago, Silly_donkey said:

Bluetooth is great. Batteries are not. 

Bluetooth sucks at shows

 

18 hours ago, dr_spock said:

How about parts to rebuild broken 9V train motors and PF motors.  At one time I found the manufacturer of the can motor inside the PF M motors on aliexpress but have buy in quantities of 1000+ at wholesale.

Sounds like there is a niche for someone to become the "restorer of 9v motors" by offering a trade-in discount for dead motors

 

 

 

Finally, remember that you want to lower as many barriers as possible. Does the approach need a special controller (including an existing one from the model railroad world), would it require soldering, etc. all of these things will reduce adoption by lego builders. The more you make the system "plug and play" the more likely it will be adopted, but also the more expensive it becomes to produce.

 

 

O-gauge components that allow most standard lego models to run on O-gauge track is where I would put my money. Look at the number of pink trains that Lionel has produced over the years presumably to convince the fathers/grandfathers that they can bring their young girls to the hobby. There are a lot of model railroaders who are looking to bring the kids in their lives into O-gauge, so they will buy a city train and put it on their layout if they had the wheels. There are also a lot of potential builders who either like Lego already but don't want to invest in a new system or who do not yet know that they like Lego. Rather than being contingent on someone else to make the track, you only need three items (motor, wheels, coupler) to make this work. The prospect of track powered trains will then attract some of the Lego builders as well, and since there is already a pantheon of track geometry available in the O-gauge world already, that will lure some lego builders. Oh yeah, and there's nobody in that market yet.

The lego compatible couplers will also be of interest to folks who want to stick with L-gauge (though BMR is entering that market)

 

[JWBDolphins]

Another consideration.  Lack of 9V track is probably the biggest hurdle and plastic track has two advantages (besides production cost):

First, plastic track doesn't oxidize/lose conductivity/need cleaning.  You don't have to use an eraser/chemicals/sandpaper every once in a while, just keep the dust down and run trains.  Some outdoor G scale users have switched to battery powered remote control so they can essentially clean their track with a leaf blower.  

Secondly, with 9V track ending over a decade ago, how many users since then have incorporated things like turnaround loops and wyes which would short-circuit 9V track?  With DCC you can get around this with electronics (ARSC) and dedicated track - which is more cost.  This is Not an issue with O gauge and 3 rail track.

Still, if you conclude this would be a viable market, I think it would be awesome!  

 

[rday1982]

18 hours ago, SteamSewnEmpire said:

What modern modelers want is the flexibility of battery systems (and the cheap track + lack of potential shorts) with easily-chargeable, port-based packs that can be 'topped off' at any time with a simple plug placed into a socket.

I think it'd be great to see an induction charging system available - like the wireless charging pad I have for my phone. If you could simply park the train over a section of track that's plugged into some power supply, and have a LiPO with a decent charge capacity trickle charge for the next two or three hours, you'd never need to dismantle and rebuild to charge batteries. Nor would you need to deal with wires, save for the ones leading to the section of track that's got the induction plate attached.

I know this will never happen. It'd just be nice.

[legoboy3998]

I would be very interested.  I would love to add dcc to my trains, and the most logical way is through track power.  I have used a wireless dcc system, but it still lacks some of the functionality of true dcc systems.  If the products are available, and supported/promoted by some of the more well known builders in the hobby, there is no reason it can’t succeed.  Especially if LGMS were to endorse it as a future recommended practice.

Sal

WFB, WI

[Silly_donkey]

On 10/3/2020 at 10:42 AM, zephyr1934 said:

 

O-gauge drive with a lego pin on the top would likely get a lot of attention. It would also provide a gateway for model railroaders to wander into Lego. Of course you would need two more components: O-gauge wheel sets (ideally with ball bearings) and lego compatible O-gauge coupler mounts.

While it is a very small sample, I have collected a small fan club of O-gauge modelers who love my lego trains. And I have also adapted to live in their world.

What's more, many of the custom instructions out there could work on day one with such a system. If you made sure the system could retrofit to the city trains then you probably have yourself a winner here because it would bring in a lot of the O-gauge market and they are far larger than the lego train market.

 

I’d love to see those pictures. They weren’t working for me. 

I’m going to be submitting schematics for my original idea. It will basically be a 12v motor with metal wheels and power pickups for L gauge. Open wires for any customization. We will see where it goes. 

[zephyr1934]

12 hours ago, Silly_donkey said:

I’d love to see those pictures. They weren’t working for me. 

Here's one

 

More can be found here.

[zephyr1934]

12 hours ago, Silly_donkey said:

I’m going to be submitting schematics for my original idea. It will basically be a 12v motor with metal wheels and power pickups for L gauge. Open wires for any customization. We will see where it goes. 

Suggest both, one for L-gauge and one for O-gauge

[legoboy3998]

@Silly_donkey With FxBrick moving forward with producing metal track, and their plan to produce power pickups, motors, controllers, etc. I would suggest perhaps reaching out to @michaelgale about possibly partnering or maybe working together on such an endeavor.  with electric powered trains being an increasingly smaller part of the hobby, I think having competing groups working on basically the same thing  would seem very counter productive.  Collaboration may be more beneficial to all.

Sal
WFB, WI

[Toastie]

On 10/3/2020 at 5:42 PM, zephyr1934 said:

The 9v lego train motor was an amazing piece of engineering. The running surface of the wheels have traction bands, so it is not metal on metal for the actual propulsion. While the power pickup was from the side using sprung flanges. I was at Michael Gale's presentation at Brickworld 2019 and I THINK he mentioned that when he gets to the motors he is going to replicate that approach.

Any successful lego train motor is likely to need traction bands or a lot of weight in/on the motor

Very nice analysis, @zephyr1934!!! Thank you very much!

I believe this is the >key< thing: Traction bands on the (metal) track running surface AND the spring-loaded power pickup scheme from the flanges.

With such mechanism, power delivery to a whatever train-controlling device is rather smooth. 

With regard to motors: I really believe that PUp motors with tacho will make the difference. They have some serious torque for one - but more so they are seamlessly integrating into the PUp controller line. Even the 2I/O hub has PID speed control firmware on-board. Which means that torque becomes "manageable". I used the speed (not power) setting on the Crocodile equipped with 2I/O PUp hub and PUp L-Motor. That engine runs smoothly at speed (not power) settings on "5%" with constant motions regardless of track geometry/friction.

I believe this is the future. Not endless torque or inertia but intelligent power delivery to the motor. 

The power pickup feeding the intelligent controlling device then ensures endless hours of smooth operation.

All the best
Thorsten