My take on 31313 vs 51515. I fully understand that many of you may not agree with me, and that's OK. Get the set you want, and have fun!

 

I agree that both sets are great in their own ways: 31313 has more functions but 51515 offers a better value and it's a great one for beginners.

Personally, if I had to pick one, I'd go with 51515. Value is the most important factor in my opinion.

Wanted to add: I thought it'd be better if 51515 had a controller though...

Edited December 7, 20204 yr by JintaiZ

8 hours ago, JintaiZ said:

If I had to pick one to buy though, I'd go with 51515. Value is the most important factor in my opinion.

That was my conclusion as well.

22 hours ago, Coder Shah said:

That was my conclusion as well.

I don't know - honestly I believe you can't even compare these sets - as you are comparing a multitude of things - on a totally different level.

We have the parts count - the b/w vs "back-lit" 5 x 5 display - the ports - the expansion options - the future - the whatever.

With 31313 you can easily fly to the moon and safely make it back to Earth. With 51515 you can have a lot of fun.

My take: Both. Having fun and then leaving Earth.

It all depends.

Best,
Thorsten

It's interesting to see the target audience described like that - definitely makes you think. The description matches a boy, not just any 10-12 y.o. child. Girls are less likely to be given technical things like a computer or a gaming console. I'm not sure if a country exists where children from regular families possess the latest models of mobile devices, but in such a country such a child would probably also be a boy. It's kinda comical, when you consider all those super-inclusive marketing shots where they so carefully measure how many girls should be in the picture. In this light, the option to program on the brick gets a whole new dimension.

 

Re: the SD-card - the important distinction is that it allows you to program not just in Python, but other languages as well.

Re: wires, yes Power Functions have fixed wires.... but LEGO offers wire extensions, and they cost $5, not EUR 22 like the Powered UP extension from PV Productions you showed during your presentation. Also, the motors themselves were much less costly to replace - PF motor is $10-13, vs $50 for Powered UP.

Edited December 8, 20204 yr by doughnut

3 hours ago, Toastie said:

It all depends.

Yup, indeed, it all depends. As per my conclusion in the video, most customers would be very happy with the 51515 set, but if you need things like the display, sd card slot etc, go for the 31313.

I have both, love both and use both.

53 minutes ago, doughnut said:

t's interesting to see the target audience described like that - definitely makes you think. The description matches a boy, not just any 10-12 y.o. child. Girls are less likely to be given technical things like a computer or a gaming console. I'm not sure if a country exists where children from regular families possess the latest models of mobile devices, but in such a country such a child would probably also be a boy. It's kinda comical, when you consider all those super-inclusive marketing shots where they so carefully measure how many girls should be in the picture. In this light, the option to program on the brick gets a whole new dimension.

Some background. I offer LEGO Mindstorms classes to homeschoolers in my country (Malaysia). So we're talking about small groups of not more than 5 kids at a time. Families would drop them off for class and pick them up after. I teach both boys and girls although I do see more boys then girls. However, by observation, I notice that both boys and girls do have more or less equal access to devices and gaming consoles, as they're not only used for MIndstorms, but also used for things like online learning, drawing, presentations etc. Devices are rarely new, most of them time they were old laptops or desktops that have been handed down. However Mom and Dad (who tend to have newer devices) do let their kids use their devices if the kid's device is too old to install the app required. One thing that is clear to me though is that none of my students over the period of ~7 years have ever touched the on-brick programming. It's fiddly and hard to use from their perspective. As I mentioned during the start of the video presentation, I'm addressing a specific audience - Mom or Dad who just wants to buy a set for their kid. Not schools or robotics centers who teach many kids at a time. In those use cases, on-brick programming is a godsend.

1 hour ago, doughnut said:

Re: the SD-card - the important distinction is that it allows you to program not just in Python, but other languages as well.

Which is correct, but officially LEGO (via LEGO education) only supports ev3dev and python, and again based on my experience, Mom and Dad are not likely to jump through all the hoops required to install and run ev3dev, let alone all the other possibilities that are available.

1 hour ago, doughnut said:

Re: wires, yes Power Functions have fixed wires.... but LEGO offers wire extensions, and they cost $5, not EUR 22 like the Powered UP extension from PV Productions you showed during your presentation. Also, the motors themselves were much less costly to replace - PF motor is $10-13, vs $50 for Powered UP.

The point I'm trying to make is to compare the detachable wires for motors and sensors in the 31313 set with the fixed wires for motors and sensors in the 51515 set.

There are two issues:

1. If a cable breaks you have to replace the whole motor, instead of just the cable.

2. You can't get longer cables.

For issue 1, Power Functions motors have fixed wires and I can't seem to see a lot of people complaining about having to replace them if the cable breaks, although it is possible to assume that the cost is low enough that it's not really an issue. However the combination of flexible wires and the push fit connectors means (for me at least) that the chances of the wires failing are lower compared to the wires in the EV3 set. I've broken the little plastic connectors on EV3 cables many times.

For issue 2, even thought LEGO do sell Power Functions wire extensions, they do not sell Powered UP! wire extensions at present. They also don't sell EV3 extension wires. For both cases you have to turn to third parties and PV-Productions appears to be the only source at present, and the wires are definitely costlier than custom EV3 wires.

Thanks for your thoughts though! I'll be compiling all of them for a follow-up video if that's ok with you.

 

21 minutes ago, Coder Shah said:

However, by observation

I wasn't talking about robotics centers either... I was talking about families. And I was talking not just from observations (which I also have), but from studies done that show that boys are much more likely to own tech things such as computers than girls. I mean, you yourself already admit that you see more boys than girls, right? A kind of a girl that the parent would bring to a robotics class is probably the one that would indeed own a computer or a gaming console, but there are less such girls than boys. That was the point I was making, and it seems to be matching your observation.

 

17 minutes ago, Coder Shah said:

Which is correct, but officially LEGO (via LEGO education) only supports ev3dev and python, and again based on my experience, Mom and Dad are not likely to jump through all the hoops required to install and run ev3dev, let alone all the other possibilities that are available.

You mentioned in your video that you compare the sets from two different angles, one of which is the Mom and Dad angle, and another is a robotics enthusiast angle (and not necessarily adult, either....). EV3 has more to offer than just Python, I think it's important.

 

Re: wires, I tried to stress the cost of Powered UP in comparison to both EV3 and Power Functions. You're right, exactly - LEGO does not sell extension wires for Powered UP at the moment, and so if you need to extend the wire you have an option to spend EUR 22 + shipping. If LEGO were offering such wires, they would be cheaper (not to mention the free shipping). Hopefully they will come up with that in the future, but at the moment that's the disadvantage comparing to both EV3 motors and Power Functions motors. EV3 have detachable cables of varying lengths, and PF have inexpensive extensions. If a wire breaks (the PF wires do break - I don't think it happens all the time, but I do see the topic being mentioned on youtube channels of Technic enthusiasts). And the cost of a PF motor is 4-5 times less than Powered UP motors. EV3 motors are just expensive as Powered UP, but the cables are detachable and much cheaper - you get a pack of 7 for $25.

 

36 minutes ago, Coder Shah said:

Thanks for your thoughts though! I'll be compiling all of them for a follow-up video if that's ok with you.

Sure!

The PU connectors don't have tabs that can break off like the EV3/NXT RJ12 connectors. EV3/NXT RJ12 connectors and the special crimper are very pricey.  If you have access to a 3D printer, you can learn to make your own custom PU extension cables dirt cheap. 

5 minutes ago, doughnut said:

That was the point I was making, and it seems to be matching your observation.

Yup! However I do think that in Malaysia that both boys and girls do have devices, though definitely more boys and girls come for my classes. I'll also add that it seems that 51515 is definitely more attractive to both boys and girls, whereas 31313 seems to me to be more skewed towards boys. Again, this might not be the case in other countries, so your mileage may vary.

10 minutes ago, doughnut said:

You mentioned in your video that you compare the sets from two different angles, one of which is the Mom and Dad angle, and another is a robotics enthusiast angle (and not necessarily adult, either....). EV3 has more to offer than just Python, I think it's important.

To clarify, the initial premise of the video is that the target audience is Mom and Dad buying a robotics set for their 10-12 year old kid, and the conclusion that I have reached is that 51515 set is totally fine for that target audience. During the course of the video i did say that if you need features like daisy chaining, sd card slot etc you would be better served by the 31313 set, but the aforementioned target market probably won't care about that, and I'm not really talking about robotics enthusiasts specifically (perhaps  I will do a second video for robotics enthusiasts).

No doubt that EV3 has more to offer than just Python. I'm just saying (probably could be communicated better) that while both sets offer graphical and text based programming interfaces, for 51515 both are ready out of the box while for 31313 you'll need to do stuff to make it work.

20 minutes ago, doughnut said:

Re: wires, I tried to stress the cost of Powered UP in comparison to both EV3 and Power Functions. You're right, exactly - LEGO does not sell extension wires for Powered UP at the moment, and so if you need to extend the wire you have an option to spend EUR 22 + shipping. If LEGO were offering such wires, they would be cheaper (not to mention the free shipping). Hopefully they will come up with that in the future, but at the moment that's the disadvantage comparing to both EV3 motors and Power Functions motors. EV3 have detachable cables of varying lengths, and PF have inexpensive extensions. If a wire breaks (the PF wires do break - I don't think it happens all the time, but I do see the topic being mentioned on youtube channels of Technic enthusiasts). And the cost of a PF motor is 4-5 times less than Powered UP motors. EV3 motors are just expensive as Powered UP, but the cables are detachable and much cheaper - you get a pack of 7 for $25.

 

I do agree with you that potentially if a wire breaks in the 51515 set, it will cost more to fix compared to 31313 where you just have to replace the cable. I'm guessing that the flexible wires and push fit connectors will make it far less likely to break though, compared to the studded connectors for PF. What I see kids doing is yanking the wires to disconnect them from battery boxes and the studded connectors offer more resistance than the push fit connectors, potentially accelerating the failure of the wires. Anyway time will tell.

Thanks for your thoughts though!

 

11 minutes ago, dr_spock said:

The PU connectors don't have tabs that can break off like the EV3/NXT RJ12 connectors. EV3/NXT RJ12 connectors and the special crimper are very pricey.

Agreed, however I think that it's more likely that parents will either just contact LEGO Customer Support to ask for new cables (free) or as @doughnut mentioned, just buy a pack of cables from LEGO Education or the secondary market (cheaper)

 

14 minutes ago, dr_spock said:

If you have access to a 3D printer, you can learn to make your own custom PU extension cables dirt cheap.

Cool! I didn't know that! Any resources or links?.

Actually older PF tend to break at the plug. Then lego put a small plastic knob at the connector piece so it only affects old PF parts from 2010 and earlier or something.

I think that onbrick programming has a purpose. You can use it if you want to quickly test something without turning the computer on, loading the software etc. The major downside is that you can't see it properly.

Edited December 8, 20204 yr by Tcm0

On 12/7/2020 at 8:31 PM, Coder Shah said:

Yup! However I do think that in Malaysia that both boys and girls do have devices, though definitely more boys and girls come for my classes. I'll also add that it seems that 51515 is definitely more attractive to both boys and girls, whereas 31313 seems to me to be more skewed towards boys. Again, this might not be the case in other countries, so your mileage may vary.

It's one thing to think something, and completely different thing to have statistics. As for RI being "more attractive to boys and girls" - I personally don't see how that is. You mean, painting something teal instead of red and making screen show smileys and emojis instead of information makes it more attractive to girls? Seems very strange to me. Or just because the marketing is different? The marketing for Mindstorms has been becoming less and less skewed towards boys indeed. The toy itself, it seems, has stayed the same (with the exception of generational hardware changes).

However, given that it's not as much children themselves choosing as culture and parents/school imposing their views on children what should and shouldn't be attractive for them, if the new Mindstorms design/marketing would make the set seem to parents like more appropriate for their girl and they will be actually inspired to buy the set for their daughter - I'm ok with that.

 

On 12/7/2020 at 8:31 PM, Coder Shah said:

I'm guessing that the flexible wires and push fit connectors will make it far less likely to break though, compared to the studded connectors for PF.

On PF motors, the wires typically break where it connects to the motor. I'm not sure if PU motors are different in that spot - I'm not into PU too much.

Edited December 12, 20204 yr by doughnut

3 hours ago, doughnut said:

It's one thing to think something, and completely different thing to have statistics. As for RI being "more attractive to boys and girls" - I personally don't see how that is. You mean, painting something teal instead of red and making screen show smileys and emojis instead of information makes it more attractive to girls? Seems very strange to me.

I admit I'm basing this only on my personal experience. In one case I had student who is a girl. She had a choice between Boost and Mindstorms and she went with Boost because she liked the colors. Admittedly Boost is not Mindstorms but the point I'm trying to make is that she did make a decision based on color.

3 hours ago, doughnut said:

Or just because the marketing is different? The marketing for Mindstorms has been becoming less and less skewed towards boys indeed. The toy itself, it seems, has stayed the same (with the exception of generational hardware changes).

 

Yup I totally agree with your statement there. The marketing is now more inclusive.

3 hours ago, doughnut said:

However, given that it's not as much children themselves choosing as culture and parents/school imposing their views on children what should and shouldn't be attractive for them, if the new Mindstorms design/marketing would make the set seem to parents like more appropriate for their girl and they will be actually inspired to buy the set for their daughter - I'm ok with that.

I'd be ok with that too.

3 hours ago, doughnut said:

On PF motors, the wires typically break where it connects to the motor. I'm not sure if PU motors are different in that spot - I'm not into PU too much.

Probably will have to see what happens after a few years.

Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts! It's very much appreciated.

9 hours ago, Coder Shah said:

In one case I had student who is a girl. She had a choice between Boost and Mindstorms and she went with Boost because she liked the colors. Admittedly Boost is not Mindstorms but the point I'm trying to make is that she did make a decision based on color.

One girl? Lol don't you think you're over-generalizing a bit? How can you judge 50% of the world population - ~4 billion of people - based on one decision at one point of life of one girl, seriously?