Spot the difference, another Lego Ideas set gets raided

[Tube Map Central]

We all know it happens, nothing new there, but this one has a train theme and this time it is not a Chinese company doing it.

From this ...

https://ideas.lego.com/projects/2854271f-9432-4193-ad74-305e7105ebc4

to this ...

https://lozshop.com/product/loz-diamond-blocks-mini-street/loz-1031-city-european-style-subway-station-mini-street/

I would guess from the rebranding/reworking that they fear the IP lawyers of London Transport more than the IP lawyers of TLG. That is probably a fair assessment.

*******

OK, I found it new, boxed, UK supplier on eBay for £37 including delivery. I know that it uses smaller blocks but I had to buy it at that price. I supported the original on Ideas and will still buy the real set if released. Let me know if you want a review.

Edited March 4, 2021 by Tube Map Central
Terrible admission of guilt!

[Jack Sassy]

That's something new, it seems that these Chinese companies are advancing fast as they are now making mock-ups of fan submissions and branding their pieces with lego logo. Where does it end?

[Tube Map Central]

15 minutes ago, Jack Sassy said:

That's something new, it seems that these Chinese companies are advancing fast as they are now making mock-ups of fan submissions and branding their pieces with lego logo. Where does it end?

Ideas has become a simple invitation for piracy. The length of time some builds need to get 10,000 votes gives plenty of opportunity for this. The support that a build gets gives free market research to enable the likely best sellers to be targeted.

The moral: don't submit to Ideas unless your build incorporates really robust IP and the set doesn't make much sense without the IP? TLG are not showing much sign of pursuing pirated Ideas, but an organisation like Disney will be more robust.

[jus1973]

It really does put me off submitting to ideas.  They’ll make a fortune with excellent models from ideas, with practically no work themselves.  I think TLG should have an automatic copyrighting on behalf of the submitting persons, and actively chase down the cloners with a cease and desist notice.  Certainly for anything that reaches a particular milestone.  If they don’t the top builders will stop using the Ideas platform, for fear of this kind of cheap copying.

[Pendra37]

The moral of the story? TLG is waaaaay toooooo slooooooow reacting and very picky on what to release.
On the other hand, I would take Ideas "support" with a big pinch of salt. There are these I support you because you support me things going which can greatly inflate numbers. Finally, even if I support something, that doesn't mean I would buy it. I click support because it looks neat, well built.
On the other hand, chinese bricks are not all that cheap. Back when the Lego Saturn V and the chinese knock-off were released almost simultaneously, the chinese was perhaps 20% cheaper. And the final results had a chance to look and hold together 20% weaker. So the decision was not that hard. I've seen the same tendency in trains. A somewhat lower price for a somewhat lower quality end result. 

Edited March 4, 2021 by Pendra37

[Black Knight]

TLG is a giant enterprise and man those are slow most of the time. And TLG wants to be sure to make a decent profit off idea sets, thats why the 10k limit exists. If some small Chinese company is happy with less profit, I am fine with that. If LEGO would be less greedy profit-oriented, they could have already put it to market themselves.

The one I really feel sorry for is the designer; at least if he did put his idea up primarily because of the money he could make -- and not because of the fun and fame. For the designers who did it for the fame, hell, they probably just got more than what they could hope for from TLG.

Edited March 4, 2021 by Black Knight
less polemic

[Tube Map Central]

Delivered and built ...

The good

Good quality bricks with mfg name on studs, plenty of clutch - perhaps too much (made pushing bricks down on delicate structures tricky, see later). All parts present, no deformed or dirty parts. Instructions were well-printed and straightforward to follow, including colours: no mistakes that I couldn't blame on myself. No impossible builds, Lego geometry almost spot on.

The bad

A few aspects of build possibly illegal. I hate mini-bricks: too small for children and older adults, how much of the construction blocks market does that wipe out? Incompatible with real Lego of course, so own supply of parts cannot be raided to rectify issues with the model. I won't be buying small bricks again.

The ugly

I supported IP theft, although at the price I paid, I figure no one was making much money on this, and I had scientific curiosity to satisfy.

But the dealbreaker, this is one of the worst designs I have ever worked with. The original idea is a bit precarious and might have ah ... stability issues, but with the bad design this one dialed them up to 11. Any brick interlocking was by accident, and there was no building-in to support less stable structures, e.g. floor supported on two sides only. I finished the build, but towards the end it was so demoralising creating such a flawed structure that I was really just putting the thing out of its misery [Designer note, I am absolutely obsessive about interlocking, if any two stacked parts have a vertical line in common, I've failed, unless the design requires that, strength and stability of build is an absolute priority for me, which made assembling this design and not being able to fix it because of brick compatibility hurt!]

Mitigating circumstances

This wasn't a straightforward rip-off, so there were clear variations on the original, some of which I preferred. The knock-off had twice as many rats as the original, do they know something we don't? The ticket office is still open (TfL shut down all except a very few ticket offices years ago). I note, bizarrely, that trees grow underground, the escalator has a magic step-return, and that there seems to be a rubbish chute - surely, if you occupy an underground building, sending your rubbish DOWN is the worst thing possible. That's just storing up future trouble.

Conclusion

All in all, standard rules still apply - you always regret buying a non-Lego set, although the reasons for this are evolving. But, I can't see the original getting past the review because I can't see ways of making it more stable without making it much bigger or much smaller. So this was my only realistic opportunity to build something a bit like it.

Edited March 12, 2021 by Tube Map Central
Typo

[ivanlan9]

Sorry, but I don't get this:  "branding their pieces with lego logo".  Where is this?  I didn't see any branding on the bricks at all.  (Not challenging you, I simply didn't see it and want to know.)

 

Thanks!

Metta,

Ivan

[Tube Map Central]

Not sure who you are addressing this to, but every stud in the set has the manufacturer name "LOZ" on it.

3 hours ago, ivanlan9 said:

Sorry, but I don't get this:  "branding their pieces with lego logo".  Where is this?  I didn't see any branding on the bricks at all.  (Not challenging you, I simply didn't see it and want to know.)

 

Thanks!

Metta,

Ivan

 

[emm]

How do we know the designer of the set has not gone to Loz and offered the design?

As I remember those Chinese trains? everyone said ripped off, stolen and then the designer posted in this very forum saying. I worked with mould king to design them. Lego not interested.

IMO we need to get all the facts before assuming its a rip off. Most likely has been ripped but would be interested to see what the designer says.

Just My view and it means nothing

[Tube Map Central]

11 minutes ago, emm said:

How do we know the designer of the set has not gone to Loz and offered the design?

As I remember those Chinese trains? everyone said ripped off, stolen and then the designer posted in this very forum saying. I worked with mould king to design them. Lego not interested.

IMO we need to get all the facts before assuming its a rip off. Most likely has been ripped but would be interested to see what the designer says.

Just My view and it means nothing

It's still on Ideas, therefore to sell the design elsewhere would be in breach of Ideas T&Cs. 

[emm]

28 minutes ago, Tube Map Central said:

It's still on Ideas, therefore to sell the design elsewhere would be in breach of Ideas T&Cs. 

Be interesting to find out if this was the case. It s a real shame i do not think we will find out.

Chinese manufactures if they did rip it must have some talented people to reverse engineer this stuff.

[Tube Map Central]

Believe me, this was not skilfully reverse engineered, If I ever created a build as bad as that, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night! 

Edited March 12, 2021 by Tube Map Central
Typo

[Pendra37]

24 minutes ago, Tube Map Central said:

Believe me, this was not skilfully reverse engineered, If I ever created a build as bad as that, I would.t be able to sleep at night! 

Let's say this set was "Inspired by". To be honest, if some chinese knockoff company "stole" my design, I would actually be proud. Lego Ideas is a badly implemented bad idea.    

[dr_spock]

Sounds like getting the pieces yourself and building your own off the pictures on the Ideas site is the better way to go. Those guys must have rushed it to market without the LEGO testing and re-imagining of the Idea. 

 

[Toastie]

On 3/11/2021 at 10:44 AM, Tube Map Central said:

I supported IP theft

Huh?

Wait wait wait.

Folks put things up on Ideas. And many of them rush through all social media platforms to fish for support. In the public domain. The moment you do that all IP vanishes into oblivion - that is the whole idea of IP.

You could translate "IP" to "rules" on Ideas - or whatever. But why on Earth do you feel bad about that?

I don't get it. TLG has really done an >excellent< job in making people feel bad about buying stuff that a) is not under IP anymore and b) is way more expensive  ...

... and any idea trumpeted into the free world is a free idea. When you want to keep this idea under IP, you want to capitalize on it. But then: Take care of it. When you don't want that: Always reference the source. Then there is no theft anymore. 

So in real life: Do we always buy the stuff from the original owner of the IP of a product from 1960/70/80/90? And do we call these products "clones"? No. We are very happy to getting something "as a bargain". And then brag about it. Who doesn't? One example: I buy Arduino - clones. 5$ vs 25$. IP? No, they did not do it. So for me, it is in the free market. What I do is, donate to them - regularly. Because I like their spirit and software development. But electronic hardware? And living in a truly capitalistic world - sorry. No bad feelings here.  

If we apply all these "moral rules" to all our everyday purchases - at least I would need a second job.

Best
Thorsten