Hi!

I'm thinking of replacing the second (non-motorized) bogie of a 10233 with another Power Functions train motor for extra strength and grip, if I can. I am aware that I may have to open up one motor to swap the C1+C2 wires to make them go in the same direction, this is not a problem.

I have heard of the elusive V2.0 version of the PF receiver but I only have the normal, regular version. Can it drive the two motors or will it suffer from overheat/overcurrent shutdowns regularly? What are your experiences with two train motors on a single PF receiver?

Thanks,

Legotux

It'll work fine. You can also use a PF switch to reverse the polarity if you can get a hold of one. I've got this setup in my double Horizon Express and it hauls.

SD

Similar to SD100, I have used this setup many times too and it works well.  Connect both one train motor and the PF control switch 8869 to one terminal on the PF receiver (V1 or V2), and then connect the second train motor to the PF control switch terminal so that it has the opposite polarity.  I use this set up (with some extension cables) to power each end of two 10233 Horizon Expresses placed back to back, along with various MOCs… one motor pulls, the other pushes, which really helps for points, curves, etc.

Note that the control switch is only necessary if your train motors are oriented in opposite directions… if you can make them face the same way, this part is not necessary.

I will defer to others with more electrical experience here, but my understanding is that the V2 receiver really only becomes worthwhile if you need to drive multiple L or XL motors that draw more current than the PF train motor.

 

Thanks for your answers! I have multimeters, but it's hard to judge how much current a motor pulls in practice, because the torque is hard to predict or emulate.

Legotux

The V2 PF receiver has different motor driver IC.  It allows for more current.  I think it has issues when more than one PF M-motor are connected to the same channel.

https://www.philohome.com/pfrec/pfrec.htm

 

For my Horizon Express, I made an adapter cable that reverses the polarity of one of the two train motors in the engine.  Some people have also rewired one of the train motors as a solution.

Assuming you have a pair of HE, on the unpowered cab unit replace the tecnic axles with normal train wheels. The technic axles cause a lot of drag.

As for flipping the polarity, if you are comfortable working with electronics probably the cheapest solution might be to cut a PF extension cable and swap the wires. You can also align the motors so that they are faced the same direction, but then you have to find a path for the wires and probably need an extension cable anyway.

Returning to your original question, you just need a normal PF receiver, it should happily power two motors. The V2 receivers are very expensive, at which point an SBrick, BUWizz, etc. might be a better bet.

Another option would be to rebuild all of the trucks to use roller bearing wheel sets, then it would probably run well with just one train motor.

5 hours ago, zephyr1934 said:

if you are comfortable working with electronics probably the cheapest solution might be to cut a PF extension cable and swap the wires.

I absolutely agree. Don't want to be a smart a**, but when cutting the PF extension cable (all 4 wires), just swap the two inner wires and leave the two outer wires isolated.

And there is no need to open the motor or do changes to the motor cable. As @zephyr1934 said: Use a PF extension cable. Here is some additional info on that, scroll down a bit to the entry of @UltraViolet

Best
Thorsten

 

25 minutes ago, Toastie said:

I absolutely agree. Don't want to be a smart a**, but when cutting the PF extension cable (all 4 wires), just swap the two inner wires and leave the two outer wires isolated.

 

25 minutes ago, Toastie said:

And there is no need to open the motor or do changes to the motor cable. As @zephyr1934 said: Use a PF extension cable. Here is some additional info on that, scroll down a bit to the entry of @UltraViolet

I know there are several ways; a PF switch, hack an extension cable, or do the swap inside the motor. From what I've gathered these motors are not glued like earlier ones but are trivial to open with a torx #6. And cutting all 4 wires of the cable is no problem, a motor doesn't use the two outer wires anyway.I have an extension cable back-ordered. It will depend on the available room which solution is best, but swapping the wires inside the motor is the most elegant and doesn't do any damage whatsoever. And I can solder like a pro. 

cheers,

Legotux

1 minute ago, legotux said:

And I can solder like a pro

And that means: Rock on dude! Because you have all options!

Personally I don't like to make changes inside a motor as then I need to keep track of which ones were reversed and which ones were not? So stickers are needed ... External cables are easily identified as changed. 

But: Do as you see fit!

Best wishes,
Thorsten

In my experience it can pull quite a lot. I think both motors were on the same port but I can't remember.
https://imgur.com/a/KyRSLx9

As far as torque goes the wheels were occasionally slipping but the motors were still pulling just fine.

4 hours ago, Andalo_an said:

In my experience it can pull quite a lot. I think both motors were on the same port but I can't remember.
https://imgur.com/a/KyRSLx9

As far as torque goes the wheels were occasionally slipping but the motors were still pulling just fine.

Ooof! That is a really long train! With only two PF motors? That is amazing!

I have two 70's 12V motors (set 724) pulling around 10-12 wagons, but shorter/lighter ones. Albeit on regular lego track, so tight corners. And I read here that 70's train wheels have much more friction than the modern ones, though I don't know why that is.

What limits the length of my train is usually the magnet couplers, not the motor strength per se. And occasionally, wheel grip.  I'm waiting impatiently on my order of 10mmx1mm neodymium magnets...

[Edit: translated my post, I inadvertently wrote in Dutch instead of English]

By the way: funny, I just received my (cough) clone-10233* and lo and behold the clone motor turns in the opposite direction compared to the Lego motor I purchased off dutch Ebay. So no mod necessary. And both on the same channel seems to work fine, albeit that is without load.

* Sorry, don't know if that is frowned upon here

Legotux

Edited May 12, 20213 yr by legotux

4 hours ago, legotux said:

lo and behold the clone motor turns in the opposite direction compared to the Lego moto

This is how it should go more often in life, isn't it? Nice!

5 hours ago, legotux said:

10233* ... frowned upon here

In the big EB-here * is, in the TrainTech-here and some other here's tolerance is a big thing as well, and when you don't use the bullhorn equivalent for posting (what would that be a bullpost?), i.e., when you do it, how you did it, then nothing much will happen (other than folks getting interested and hear about your experience :))

Best
Thorsten

 

1 hour ago, Toastie said:

This is how it should go more often in life, isn't it? Nice!

In the big EB-here * is, in the TrainTech-here and some other here's tolerance is a big thing as well, and when you don't use the bullhorn equivalent for posting (what would that be a bullpost?), i.e., when you do it, how you did it, then nothing much will happen (other than folks getting interested and hear about your experience :))

Best
Thorsten

 

Sorry I'm not clear what you meant? I'm just asking if mentioning / discussing non-official-Lego parts/sets here is a mortal sin / discouraged / allowed. I'm new here and don't want to step on any toes...

I just assembled the front carriage, with the motor. Holy moly, I'm in awe at the level of detail and ingenuity that went into this. And I saw a couple dozen lego parts that I didn't even dream of possibly existing. Wow.

legotux

It's generally discouraged on these forums but as he said on the "Train Tech" forum specifically they are more lenient at least as it applies to non-lego parts.

SD

I assembled the first and second carriage, the third is still in pieces. I also added the second motor. With this setup, I can go up a 7.5% slope (one brick per rail length), come to a full stop, and restart climbing it (albeit just barely). So that is purely excellent. I doubt that I can still climb it with the full three carriages. We will see. Obviously though, the Horizon Express was never conceived for taking 7.5% slopes, I know that. And this was with NiMH rechargeable batteries, not alkaline.

I was so impressed by the set that I ordered a second set, to make the train 'complete' (or more complete at least). I'm reading the thread dedicated to it now, but it's very long so it'll take a while. I wonder whether the 6-carriage train would require 2 motors or 3/4 motors (on flat track). And if 3 or 4 motors, whether that is smarter to do with two receivers on the same channel or 3 (or even 4?) motors on one receiver (and a very long extension cable) if even possible. Both methods have drawbacks. The main drawback for using two receivers is that both receivers might not get all of the IR commands and thus might do different things, wreaking havoc.

But what a mighty set the 10233 is!! wow. All this ingenuity and strange parts just to place windows sideways. Instead of just making a new lego window, which lego is capable of.

Insane and inspired at the same time. Crazy and Genius. Lego sometimes is just a very subtle little tiny innocent brick-Rube Goldberg machine...

Legotux

My double HE with two motors in only the lead power car can ascend a 2 plate per track section grade no problem. I don't think I'd be able to stop and get going on it again but it's fine in motion.

SD

6 hours ago, SD100 said:

My double HE with two motors in only the lead power car can ascend a 2 plate per track section grade no problem. I don't think I'd be able to stop and get going on it again but it's fine in motion.

SD

Ah good to hear, thanks! But does that mean 3 motors total (one extra added in lead power car) or 2 motors total (motor moved from hind power car to front power car) ?   My situation could be different because I drive on blue rails now, but still

Legotux

Edited May 14, 20213 yr by legotux
afterthought

2 motors total, in the head power car. Rear power car has unpowered bogies. Originally I had one motor in each with a power wire running the full length of the train but that caused a lot of derailments so I put both of them on the lead car.

SD

Depends on the size and the wight you want to pull.

I have four locomotives equipped with two PF train motors and V2 IR receivers, but I build 72 studs long trains cars, each with 600g -800g weight, the locos with batteries 1200g-1500g.

But for "normal", set-sized trains consisting of 5-6 cars the V1 IR receiver will do the job.

I'm having some bad luck with my various motors. One is a secondhand genuine Lego, two others are not.

Equipped with two motors, a train with just two wagons can't ascend a 7% slope. Now, I realize that a 7% slope is tough and should therefore not be the reference.

Still, I started looking for causes, and strangely it is the genuine Lego motor that is weak. It is much much weaker than the clone motor. Since I've bought a second set I replaced the Lego motor with another clone, but this one has bad problems. It often cannot overcome its internal friction so it needs a nudge to even start spinning, even at max power. And when it does, it is loud. Visual inspection gives no clues, there is ample white grease, no obvious defects, runs fine when open. But when I close it the trouble is back. It is also notably tough sometimes to turn the wheels in one direction by hand.  So I suspect the cogs are badly formed or damaged, but I did not verify this yet. But that's on me... the inherent risk of buying non-Lego parts... sometimes you get a dud.

What bothers me though, is the apparent weakness of the genuine Lego train motor. I can buy another secondhand Lego train motor for €12 plus shipping, but... I could also try to swap gear/cogs or the motor between the Lego one and the noisy one to try and make one without defects. And there's another motor in the mail now, which I hope does not have such quality issues... 

Is this a known issue? I was hoping to eventually pull a 6-car train or even longer, but at this rate it looks pretty hopeless, even on flat track...

Oh, for completeness sake, I run on 12V blue track. I don't think that makes the difference, but I would be amiss to omit this information

Legotux

Edited May 31, 20213 yr by legotux
add info

To conclude my «quest» :

I decided the clone motors were unusable due to that friction-overcome problem, so I ordered a genuine Lego PF train motor, reversed the internal wires, mounted it and the train runs super smooth now with two motors.

Even very slow starts seem possible, and a 5% incline can be taken just fine with the front engine plus three wagons. I haven't finished yet, there's still two wagons to finish building. I did convert the bogies, so there's less friction on account of less axles.

I'm in the process of modifying / converting a legacy 7822 station to accommodate the extra long horizon express, and with double track instead of single.

Legotux