strangely Posted May 25, 2021 Posted May 25, 2021 1 hour ago, allanp said: @Lira_Bricks @PhoenixBuilder actually many in the trans community are demanding that I do not follow my own ethical moral code. When someone is born a male (and I'm not talking to the very few that are intersex) then they transition to becoming a female, to them that is their truth, to them, it is not a lie and comes from a place of trying to live their truth and I fully understand and accept that. But to me, refering to someone that was born a male as "she" is a lie. I'm fine with those born biologically male identifying their selves as female. But many are not fine with me identifying those born male as "he". It's not a lie, trans people are not denying biology when asking for pronouns. There's a big difference between sex and gender. Here's a video that helped me understand it:
Alexandrina Posted May 25, 2021 Posted May 25, 2021 49 minutes ago, allanp said: I'm also happy to just live and let live. At least for me, this is all I ask for. I don't really mind what views someone holds in private, so long as when I interact with them they give me the respect to acknowledge my identity. That does mean calling me "she" - I am not a man, and nor will I respond kindly to someone insisting on calling me a man (after I have explicitly told them otherwise - I don't expect people, especially online, to necessarily know that I am a woman without prompt). If someone wants to leave the interaction thinking I am a man, that's their prerogative, so long as they don't feel the need to force that view upon me. I won't force you into further debate - as you say, our views are fundamentally different, and I don't think continuing to debate would help anyone, nor would it be relevant to Lego. That said, I would like to add - for the benefit of anyone who happens to read - why being told I'm not a woman, having my gender denied, is hurtful. First off, I didn't choose to be this way. Being trans is not my fault. As a trans woman, I ask only one thing: that I be allowed to live my life in peace, with basic human respect afforded me. When someone aggressively misgenders me, that falls short of basic respect. Have you ever met a friend's pet for the first time? If you guess its gender wrong, you usually will be subtly corrected - and it's no big deal, the world keeps turning. But if your friend said "my dog is female, actually" and you continued to call it "he" while being aware of that, it would be a bit of a social faux pas. It doesn't happen. People respect a dog's pronouns. So when someone calls me "he" and I tell them that actually I am a woman, if they still insist on calling me "he" to deny my gender, they're treating me with less respect than they would a dog. As a trans woman, every time I post something online or go out in the street, there's a chance that'll happen. Or worse. And you know what? It really wears a person down. That Lego have done this set is such a brilliant thing in my eyes. It says to me that, now and in the future, Lego won't deny my gender. I can build this set and know that they see me.
Lira_Bricks Posted May 25, 2021 Posted May 25, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, allanp said: @Lira_Bricks the difference of opinion we have is so fundamental that we shall never agree. The difference is that I'm fine with that while you are not. The Nazi's where also fine with the holocaust. Is it the fault of all the people sent to the death-camps? Of course you are fine with it, it is not about your existence... 1 hour ago, allanp said: If for example, I claimed to be 30 years old, when physically I am not in fact 30 years old, then you disagreeing with my claim that I am 30 years old would in no way deny my existence as a human being. It would simply mean that you disagree with one singular claim that I make about myself. This does not invalidate anyone's existence or prove any existence of hate or intolerance from anyone. It would deny your existence. You view yourself a certain way, and someone else is telling you that way of living is fake. But now were are getting into the domain of otherkins and littles, both of which I know too little about. 1 hour ago, allanp said: The toilet issue I admit is a tricky one to answer in a way that would satisfy everyone. I'd be happy with having all public toilets being genderless as long as they are clearly defined as such. So why do you have issues with transgender women going to the women's bathroom if you are fine with genderless bathrooms? You would rather have a bathroom anyone can enter than one where cisgender women and transgender women can go to? 1 hour ago, allanp said: I am happy to try to explain further if you guys wish, but I'm also happy to just live and let live. I won't continue this unless there are any specific questions for me. Yeah yeah, live and let live. Nice joke you made there. We may live as long as we fit your way of living Edited May 25, 2021 by Lira_Bricks fixed typo
williejm Posted May 25, 2021 Posted May 25, 2021 2 hours ago, PhoenixBuilder said: While I'm going to quote posts here, my comments are meant more generally and not criticisms of these writers specifically. (Also my patience is beginning to run a little thin with this whole topic, so if I'm blunt, apologies in advance.) This argument about 'intolerance on both sides' keeps being raised and is utterly vacuous. The core difference here is that people who seek to judge or shame or disrespect LGBTQ+ people are projecting their values and judgements onto the lives of LGBTQ+ people, and the same is not being done in response. The vast, vast majority of people who campaign against civil rights for LGBTQ+ people, who campaign against same sex marriage, who bar LGBTQ+ people from accessing necessary medical services, are not part of the community, and yet have decided that they get to have a say in other people's lives. LGBTQ+ people (typically) are not advocating that, for example, those with religious convictions that do not accept us should be banned from practicing their religion. We aren't trying to insert our beliefs or values into anyone else's life, but that is what is being done to us. All we're asking for is to be seen and acknowledged and respected for who we are, and to be treated at the same level as straight people. That's why pronouns are important. That's why feeling safe in a bathroom is important. That's why having a Lego set made about you is important! One other point while I'm here: I don't expect everyone to have an intuitive knowledge of all of this stuff, but I do think it is not the responsibility of LGBTQ+ people on this forum to answer every question or argue everyone's 'devil's advocate' arguments about LGBTQ+ people. If you have a question, I'd encourage you to Google an answer first -- there are many activists and advocates who have written about most of these topics, and I think many of the questions being raised can be answered there without putting a weighty responsibility on LGBTQ+ members here. I, as a cis man, would hold myself to that when it comes to trans issues: I don't believe I have any knowledge of what gender dysphoria is like to experience, nor am I directly affected by issues facing the trans community, but much of the knowledge I'm lacking I've found through blog posts, social media, and articles written by brave and admirable trans people. (If a question is still outstanding, of course I'd bring it to my friends, but only if / when they're comfortable having that conversation) Having said that, I am desperately trying to make at least some of the experience of being queer relatable or understandable for the straight people in this thread, but honestly it is becoming exhausting and upsetting. Please, just let us have this one Lego set. It's depressing when any tiny sense of recognition or representation we get has to be picked apart over and over again. Amen to all of this. I would like to buy all of the LGBTQ+ folks and allies on these threads a very large stiff drink. The patience and restraint shown by many people here against an onslaught of ignorance or politely dressed-up bigotry is truly amazing. I’ve retrained from posting a lot because I am trying not to rise to the bait or engage emotionally, but it is F£@&%^* EXHAUSTING.
allanp Posted May 25, 2021 Posted May 25, 2021 I do not wish to upset anyone. My original post was an attempt to explain why I think TLG should just stay non political on this subject because of all the bigoted intolerance I see coming from both sides. Perhaps I should not have tried to explain myself further when asked about it.
Karalora Posted May 25, 2021 Posted May 25, 2021 @allanp You talk about "intolerance on both sides," but it's a false equivalence. Trying to define someone's identity as something other than what they designate is an act of aggression. You are trying to overrule a person's self-image. What gives you the right to do that? If they then say "No, you are not authorized to define me," how is that equivalent? If anything, it's self-defense. Society needs to realize that assigned gender at birth is a doctor's opinion about a new person's gender based on, usually, the shape of their genitals. But as you grow up and develop your self-image, you get to issue a second opinion, and by definition it is the right one. You are the ultimate authority on your identity! If you agree with that first doctor, super. If not, your opinion overrides theirs. Anyone who says otherwise is effectively committing insubordination by proxy on behalf of some OB/GYN years ago. What a silly thing for them to do.
allanp Posted May 25, 2021 Posted May 25, 2021 (edited) @Karalora understand that terms like "overrule a person's self image" and "act of aggression" to me seem rather exaggerated and over blown. I honestly don't believe that I'm committing any acts of aggression or hatred or bigotry or Naziism, nor am I trying to overrule a person's self image, by disagreeing with you. I believe there's far more to you than your gender. When everyone, boys and girls included, are truly equal, your gender becomes almost meaningless to me in comparison to all the things about you that do matter, like your personality, reason, kindness, patience, compassion and ability to see things from another person's perspective just to name a few. And yes, believe it or not I do have the right to disagree. Everybody does. The intolerance comes from trying to deny that right. I'm not trying to force you to agree with me, but I do expect that you don't try to force me to agree with you. Edit: Please also understand that for years I have lived with clinically diagnosed severe (near suicidal) depression. If you think I don't know what a mental disorder is like, believe me I know (edit not looking for sympathy btw as I've mostly beaten it with time) I hate joining discussions like this and saying what many don't want to hear. But I also know than many with gender dysphoria suffer the same demons I have. And unless this conversation is allowed (not necessarily on Eurobricks of course) I fear it will not get better. Maybe I'm wrong, I hope I am wrong. Edited May 25, 2021 by allanp
1974 Posted May 25, 2021 Posted May 25, 2021 This topic will in no way end well ... or even worse .. end at all! Mods, please shut it down. It's not about LEGO anymore Thanx
Lira_Bricks Posted May 25, 2021 Posted May 25, 2021 9 minutes ago, 1974 said: This topic will in no way end well [...] Mods, please shut it down. After that last message of allanp I agree with you. Some people just refuse to understand.
Lyichir Posted May 25, 2021 Posted May 25, 2021 (edited) 18 minutes ago, 1974 said: This topic will in no way end well ... or even worse .. end at all! Mods, please shut it down. It's not about LEGO anymore Thanx I'm going to plead the mods for the opposite. Threads related to LGBT rights or similarly "controversial" topics do have an awful tendency to be full of concern trolls who sideline the discussion away from its intended purpose. But allowing that to result in the topics getting shut down has the unfortunate effect of creating a de facto ban on anything even marginally related to those important issues, and suppressing people's ability to discuss them civilly. So far I think the mods have done a respectable job keeping things civil, which isn't to say there isn't room for improvement. And I'd like to hope that some of the well-reasoned explanations of why things like misgendering are bad or why LGBT pride is important have genuinely gotten across to some users who aren't entering these discussions in bad faith. Perhaps that's optimistic of me. But if people aren't allowed to discuss these things, intolerant members aren't able to reevaluate their worldviews, while members of minority groups aren't able to discuss things that deeply affect them openly. It's a lose-lose scenario to shut these kinds of topics down entirely. Edited May 25, 2021 by Lyichir
1974 Posted May 25, 2021 Posted May 25, 2021 2 minutes ago, Lyichir said: I'm going to plead the mods for the opposite. Threads related to LGBT rights or similarly "controversial" topics do have an awful tendency to be full of concern trolls who sideline the discussion away from its intended purpose. But allowing that to result in the topics getting shut down has the unfortunate effect of creating a de facto ban on anything even marginally related to those important issues, and suppressing people's ability to discuss them civilly. So far I think the mods have done a respectable job keeping things civil, which isn't to say there isn't room for improvement. And I'd like to hope that some of the well-reasoned explanations of why things like misgendering are bad or why LGBT pride is important have genuinely gotten across to some users who aren't entering these discussions in bad faith. Perhaps that's optimistic of me. But if people aren't allowed to discuss these things, intolerant members aren't able to reevaluate their worldviews, while members of minority groups aren't able to discuss things that deeply affect them openly. It's a lose-lose scenario to shut these kinds of topics down entirely. A lot of words, none of them being "LEGO". This is a LEGO forum, there are tons of forums and other SoMe ways to talk about non-LEGO things I'm not intolerant, I just don't give a flying fvck when I'm on my favourite LEGO forum. I'm here for the bricks, not to push my personal agenda Cheers, Ole
danth Posted May 25, 2021 Posted May 25, 2021 3 minutes ago, 1974 said: A lot of words, none of them being "LEGO". This is a LEGO forum, there are tons of forums and other SoMe ways to talk about non-LEGO things I'm not intolerant, I just don't give a flying fvck when I'm on my favourite LEGO forum. I'm here for the bricks, not to push my personal agenda Cheers, Ole Sounds like you need to stay out of this topic them. "If you don't like it...don't read it!" To be fair, I'm not totally opposed to the idea that any arguments about whether Lego should or shouldn't do whatever set be moved to some separate thread in a different sub-forum. But until then, this is the topic for it. It's just more easily visible to people who aren't interested in that aspect of the discussion, for good or ill.
Lira_Bricks Posted May 25, 2021 Posted May 25, 2021 19 minutes ago, Lyichir said: I'm going to plead the mods for the opposite. Threads related to LGBT rights or similarly "controversial" topics do have an awful tendency to be full of concern trolls who sideline the discussion away from its intended purpose. But allowing that to result in the topics getting shut down has the unfortunate effect of creating a de facto ban on anything even marginally related to those important issues, and suppressing people's ability to discuss them civilly. That is a really good point I had not thought about. I agree with you.
1974 Posted May 25, 2021 Posted May 25, 2021 34 minutes ago, danth said: "If you don't like it...don't read it!" True. But if there isn't enough LEGO only stuff here, the forum might fade even more .. It's rather obvious that TLG is not seeing this as the premier SoMe outlet anymore 33 minutes ago, Lira_Bricks said: That is a really good point I had not thought about. I agree with you. Do you really think this is the right place to argue about that?
williejm Posted May 25, 2021 Posted May 25, 2021 9 minutes ago, 1974 said: True. But if there isn't enough LEGO only stuff here, the forum might fade even more .. It's rather obvious that TLG is not seeing this as the premier SoMe outlet anymore Do you really think this is the right place to argue about that? Yet here you are, making it so much better 🙄...
1974 Posted May 25, 2021 Posted May 25, 2021 9 minutes ago, williejm said: Yet here you are, making it so much better 🙄... I'm only trying to voice my concerns to the owners of this site. And I'm rather certain most users here would like to see it continue ... Or do you disagree?
williejm Posted May 25, 2021 Posted May 25, 2021 1 minute ago, 1974 said: I'm only trying to voice my concerns to the owners of this site. And I'm rather certain most users here would like to see it continue ... Or do you disagree? Hard to disagree or agree when you word it so obliquely tbqh. I just don’t understand you blundering into a thread you clearly have issues with, doing the ‘I’m not intolerant but...’ line then screaming for the thread to be closed down because people aren’t saying BRICKS enough. If you have an issue - maybe raise with a moderator?
williejm Posted May 25, 2021 Posted May 25, 2021 Just now, 1974 said: Are you okay? I’m awesome, thanks.
nerdsforprez Posted May 25, 2021 Posted May 25, 2021 2 hours ago, Karalora said: You are the ultimate authority on your identity! No. I can tell you as a clinical psychologist. This is not correct. People can and do identify with all sorts of things to which they are not. Folks who exhibit psychotic symptoms, overt and objective, certainly don't identify as such. They think they are as sane as everyone else out there. And this should not be interpreted in any shape or form with me comparing someone with psychotic symptoms and a member of the LGBTQ community. The analogy fits, that is all. For transparency, I am a strong advocate for LGBTQ rights. I am the proud father of a trans son. Best kid I know and I love him dearly. But LGBTQ messages need to be shared clearly, with accurate information, and without ulterior motives. Not for the benefit of the rest of society, but FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE LGBTQ progress. My son is harmed by false pretenses and messages. We may be the author of our own identities, but we don't have a right to force others to adhere to them. Nor is that an act of aggression or violence. Propagation of this narrative actually hurts the LGBTQ movement, not helps it.
Lira_Bricks Posted May 25, 2021 Posted May 25, 2021 13 minutes ago, nerdsforprez said: We may be the author of our own identities, but we don't have a right to force others to adhere to them. Nor is that an act of aggression or violence. Propagation of this narrative actually hurts the LGBTQ movement, not helps it. Only if the person is a danger to other peoples health. Otherwise you can just let them live with their identity. So getting angry when someone refuses to use your pronouns makes sense to me. Also, there is medical proof for transgender people existence, so it isn't some "weird fantasy" people are having.
Alexandrina Posted May 25, 2021 Posted May 25, 2021 2 hours ago, 1974 said: Mods, please shut it down. It's not about LEGO anymore This thread has turned into the de facto thread on whether Lego should engage in LGBTQ+ issues, and at times strayed into issues not strictly bound to Lego. Topics deviate, and insisting that a topic stays rigidly on a narrow track just makes it feel like treading on egg shells making a comment. Not good for discussion. But more than that: what is to be gained by shutting down the thread dedicated to discussion of a big deal set that hasn't even come put yet? Even if there's currently more chat about the issues than the bricks, is that not bound to change next week when the set is out and people can actually discuss the physical product?
1974 Posted May 25, 2021 Posted May 25, 2021 Ok, this is more important to you than me. Peace out ...
Karalora Posted May 25, 2021 Posted May 25, 2021 44 minutes ago, nerdsforprez said: No. I can tell you as a clinical psychologist. This is not correct. Far be it from me to tell a professional they don't know what they're talking about, but it's pretty disingenuous to take a statement clearly made in the context of gender identity and conflate it with psychosis. Trans people are the gender they declare. Period. It's not a matter of "conflicting truths."
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