Heroica: Glory Amongst The Stars - Rules & FAQ

[Duvors]

1 hour ago, Waterbrick Down said:

Wow, that's a lot of work @Duvors  thanks for running it though. Sheesh Battle Mage is strong when fighting Martial Artist and Meditate essentially gives a free heal to the class (Eldritch Vigor), so we may want to adjust that. I think this does show how in an even fight, how Meditate can certainly extend a battle. On the other hand it was cool to see that many spells being flung around. One of my main concerns originally was that starting casters would only get 1-3 spell casts per mission and even then they weren't guaranteed to do anything. Compare that to another player who invested in weapon proficiencies or Skill, and it felt like a lot of the time casters would have the short end of the stick and generally an unfun time playing for the first few months.

Thank you. In hindsight I think I made an obvious mistake by making Azure's highest proficiency Acrobatics instead of Religion. The Inability to seriously heal themselves or meditate to full put them on the back foot almost the entire fight, forcing them to constantly run and hide as well as preventing them from using Master of the Warlike Art more than once in the entire fight. Honestly though, even if I had swapped Acrobatics and Religion I just think it would've made the fight last longer without changing the result. Black's plethora of defensive options, coupled with Azure's lack of auto successes on their unarmed attacks, made it damn near impossible to hurt them. Azure only did one damage in the entire fight. In fact I'd say that technically the majority of the damage on Black was self-inflicted.

1 hour ago, Waterbrick Down said:

Correct it does, adding to the new rule book, which is almost done by the way. 

2 hours ago, Waterbrick Down said:

Ok, new thought. We get rid of the Meditate action, Spirit refreshes at the end of every combat, and then we introduce new 0 Spirit cost spell levels for example:

By having 0 Spirit cost Spells, we allow casters to still feel relevant even when they don't have Spirit available, but the 0 cost spells aren't so overpowered as to create the current issue of each battle having no stakes in future battles.

Considering that spirit refreshing per battle was actually one of the original complaints (encouraging fighting over other options) I'm not sure this really fixes the issue satisfactorily. I find the idea of 0-level spells interesting, but I'm not sure it's quite right.

Having had time to think, I believe Zephyr is ultimately right that the way meditate currently works is problematic, and my real disagreement is over implementation. I think the idea of 'rests' is the best framework to use, but I don't think it should be purely MM dictated. I'm fine with MM's limiting opportunities to rest, but I take issue at MM's telling players 'you rest now' or 'you now regain spirit and vitality'. I prefer the ultimate choice remaining in player hands, partly because it allows for situations where the players have to choose between marshaling their resources and pushing on to keep ahead of a pursuer, or give themselves more time to prevent a disaster, or prevent opportunities from being lost. I've also talked earlier about the idea of meditation having a dynamic limit on usage rather than a static one:

23 hours ago, Duvors said:

# meditates = 1/2 highest casting prof per battle (or rest if implemented), leftovers pre battle/rest are deleted.

Essentially you don't automatically regain Spirit, instead having you opportunities to recover on the fly refreshed. I'm debating having Vitality work somewhat the same way. It's awkward because Vitality and Spirit are massively different from each other in function, but it would also make regaining Vitality by resting a more touch-and-go thing. Essentially something like this:

# restorations = 1/2 medicine/survival/technology per rest, remaining uses do not stack.

Essentially a restoration is like meditating, with the main difference being that it can be used on other people. It would also use one of the three proficiencies listed above. I'm on the fence with this however. As much as I want to make medicine relevant damnit i'm not sure if Vitality would be better served by having it just recover a flat amount. I do think this wold still be less powerful than magical healing ultimately.

30 minutes ago, Classic_Spaceman said:

Would these 0 Spirit spells also be available to non-spellcasters? Some of these would be useful for Yelana, but since I do not intend to make her a magic-focused character, I do not want to spend Character Points on Spirit just to have some non-Spirit-consuming abilities. 

No, because they'd still count as 'spells known', so you'd still require spirit to know them in the first place.

[Duvors]

Looking back over the fight, I realize I forgot to add Black's Skill bonus to their Velocity. They should've been moving three squares a turn.

[Waterbrick Down]

On 1/27/2022 at 4:59 PM, Duvors said:

Considering that spirit refreshing per battle was actually one of the original complaints (encouraging fighting over other options) I'm not sure this really fixes the issue satisfactorily. I find the idea of 0-level spells interesting, but I'm not sure it's quite right.

Point taken.

On 1/27/2022 at 4:59 PM, Duvors said:

Having had time to think, I believe Zephyr is ultimately right that the way meditate currently works is problematic, and my real disagreement is over implementation. I think the idea of 'rests' is the best framework to use, but I don't think it should be purely MM dictated. I'm fine with MM's limiting opportunities to rest, but I take issue at MM's telling players 'you rest now' or 'you now regain spirit and vitality'. I prefer the ultimate choice remaining in player hands, partly because it allows for situations where the players have to choose between marshaling their resources and pushing on to keep ahead of a pursuer, or give themselves more time to prevent a disaster, or prevent opportunities from being lost. I've also talked earlier about the idea of meditation having a dynamic limit on usage rather than a static one:

I'm not necessarily opposed to a rest mechanic and maybe it's something that MM meet players halfway, i.e. the players ask to rest and the MM grants it based on the current situation. Traveling on a cruise ship and you're between a bar fight and the next day? Sure. In the middle of a space wreck where there is limited oxygen and you're constantly be chased by alien space slugs? No, there is no time to rest.

On 1/27/2022 at 4:59 PM, Duvors said:

Essentially you don't automatically regain Spirit, instead having you opportunities to recover on the fly refreshed. I'm debating having Vitality work somewhat the same way. It's awkward because Vitality and Spirit are massively different from each other in function, but it would also make regaining Vitality by resting a more touch-and-go thing. Essentially something like this:

# restorations = 1/2 medicine/survival/technology per rest, remaining uses do not stack.

Essentially a restoration is like meditating, with the main difference being that it can be used on other people. It would also use one of the three proficiencies listed above. I'm on the fence with this however. As much as I want to make medicine relevant damnit i'm not sure if Vitality would be better served by having it just recover a flat amount. I do think this wold still be less powerful than magical healing ultimately.

Yeah this and the meditation formula from earlier might be a little too crunchy for my liking. It's a solution, but maybe a little too finicky for my taste and something I feel MM and players would constantly have to reference and keep track of.

On 1/27/2022 at 4:59 PM, Duvors said:

No, because they'd still count as 'spells known', so you'd still require spirit to know them in the first place.

@Classic_Spaceman Duvors is correct. You still need Spirit to access spells (even 0 cost ones), or at least a Holo-scroll.

[Zepher]

12 hours ago, Waterbrick Down said:

I'm not necessarily opposed to a rest mechanic and maybe it's something that MM meet players halfway, i.e. the players ask to rest and the MM grants it based on the current situation. Traveling on a cruise ship and you're between a bar fight and the next day? Sure. In the middle of a space wreck where there is limited oxygen and you're constantly be chased by alien space slugs? No, there is no time to rest.

This seems like the most elegant and easy solution to me, and truly doesn’t add all that much to track for anyone. It means using spells in and out of combat is equally risky, which means spellcasters gotta make some tough choices. Which is good!

[Duvors]

On 1/29/2022 at 12:16 AM, Waterbrick Down said:

I'm not necessarily opposed to a rest mechanic and maybe it's something that MM meet players halfway, i.e. the players ask to rest and the MM grants it based on the current situation. Traveling on a cruise ship and you're between a bar fight and the next day? Sure. In the middle of a space wreck where there is limited oxygen and you're constantly be chased by alien space slugs? No, there is no time to rest.

This, I think, what I was pushing for.

On 1/29/2022 at 12:16 AM, Waterbrick Down said:

Yeah this and the meditation formula from earlier might be a little too crunchy for my liking. It's a solution, but maybe a little too finicky for my taste and something I feel MM and players would constantly have to reference and keep track of.

To be honest, they do feel more like class abilities. I do want to preserve some degree of randomness and uncertainty to the process though. Simply giving back all or half automatically would probably be best reserved for moments where the party has an extended period without significant risk - so yes, this would be at the MM's discretion. I feel that regaining Spirit during rests could simply work as meditate does now for the most part, but Vitality should probably roll an attribute instead of a proficiency, simply because it's more universal. I'd be fine with letting people assist Vitality recovery with Medicine, Survival, or some other appropriate attributes.

[Classic_Spaceman]

On 1/29/2022 at 12:16 AM, Waterbrick Down said:

@Classic_Spaceman Duvors is correct. You still need Spirit to access spells (even 0 cost ones), or at least a Holo-scroll.

OK - BTW, why did we decide to have Spirit start at 0 instead of at 1, like other attributes? I think that this was something that was discussed, but I cannot remember. 🤔
 

[Waterbrick Down]

5 hours ago, Classic_Spaceman said:

OK - BTW, why did we decide to have Spirit start at 0 instead of at 1, like other attributes? I think that this was something that was discussed, but I cannot remember. 🤔
 

So that those who didn't want a spell build didn't feel like they had a wasted stat.

19 hours ago, Duvors said:

This, I think, what I was pushing for.

To be honest, they do feel more like class abilities. I do want to preserve some degree of randomness and uncertainty to the process though. Simply giving back all or half automatically would probably be best reserved for moments where the party has an extended period without significant risk - so yes, this would be at the MM's discretion. I feel that regaining Spirit during rests could simply work as meditate does now for the most part, but Vitality should probably roll an attribute instead of a proficiency, simply because it's more universal. I'd be fine with letting people assist Vitality recovery with Medicine, Survival, or some other appropriate attributes.

Perhaps, at the end of a combat, Spirit restores = # Casting Proficiency Successes and Vitality restores = # Strength Proficiency Successes?

[Zepher]

2 hours ago, Waterbrick Down said:

So that those who didn't want a spell build didn't feel like they had a wasted stat.

Perhaps, at the end of a combat, Spirit restores = # Casting Proficiency Successes and Vitality restores = # Strength Proficiency Successes?

Again, I think we’d want this to be at a rest and not at the end of combat, but this sounds good to me.

[Waterbrick Down]

22 minutes ago, Zepher said:

Again, I think we’d want this to be at a rest and not at the end of combat, but this sounds good to me.

Ah, sorry I wasn't clear. I was thinking that in order to incorporate @Duvors idea of some unpredictability, we could have a little Spirit/Vitality restore after combat and all of it restore at the end of a rest. I'd be very reticent to have only a rest mechanic that only has a chance at restoring Spirit.

If we go with a rest mechanic that fully restores Spirit/Vitality, I'd still like to discuss 0 Spirit cost spells at some point. Speaking as a starting caster, it would feel a little frustrating to only be able to cast (maybe) 3 spells in battle and then have to fall back to either Defend/Rally actions until the next rest which could be one battle later or three, not to mention outside of combat spell opportunities. Things like 0 Spirit cost spells, would function like cantrips in D&D, which essentially allow a caster to always still "feel" like a caster, even if their low level magic can't keep up with non-caster combat prowess. Alternatively we make Ætherbrews more prevalent, but that just feels like going back to Meditate being a standard action with more steps and a credit cost.

[Zepher]

I'm not opposed to 0 spirit spells, but I'll again point out I've been purposefully playing Mission 7 as a test case for my "no meditate no recharge" proposal, and even without rests I, who am going for a spell-caster build, have felt like I've had to make some tough choices but never that I've been ineffectual.

[Duvors]

21 minutes ago, Waterbrick Down said:

Ah, sorry I wasn't clear. I was thinking that in order to incorporate @Duvors idea of some unpredictability, we could have a little Spirit/Vitality restore after combat and all of it restore at the end of a rest. I'd be very reticent to have only a rest mechanic that only has a chance at restoring Spirit.

Well then, the simplest thing seems to do would be to say that you regain 1+successes.

[Waterbrick Down]

16 hours ago, Zepher said:

I'm not opposed to 0 spirit spells, but I'll again point out I've been purposefully playing Mission 7 as a test case for my "no meditate no recharge" proposal, and even without rests I, who am going for a spell-caster build, have felt like I've had to make some tough choices but never that I've been ineffectual.

I'm not necessarily claiming spell-casters that don't have Spirit are ineffectual though, it's more claiming that they're not functioning as a spell-caster the majority of the time. You can certainly still be useful with Defend/Rally/Try Something actions, but unlike someone with a weapon proficiency or high Skill/Smarts attribute who nearly always have the option to do something useful, the early game casters have to choose to do something additionally besides spell casting in order to stay relevant the majority of the time. I'm somewhat ok with spells being a limited resource, because they should have a higher payout than a more consistent action, but either the payout has to be considerably high enough or if the payout is low, the consistency has to be increased. Right now Meditate makes the payout and the consistency high, changing the rule to refreshing Spirit only on rests, seems to make the consistency too low compared to the payout (at least for early game casters).

What about a 4th "weapon or damage" type? Æthereal? No Weapon bonus and it keys off the character's highest casting stat (Arcane/Religion/Nature/Occult) since the casting stat is already also being used for spells? It'd give casters a damage option for combat that doesn't consume Spirit, but it isn't as powerful as normal weapons since there isn't a Weapon Mod. Range could be unlimited, like most spells. Casters will then have 2 options that allow them to still feel "magical" every combat round if they desire, either cast a lower damage option with consistency or cast a higher damage/impactful option at the cost of a limited resource. Weapon would look like this:

Fire Bolt (Elemental Æthereal Weapon)
Boulder Heave (Kinetic Æthereal Weapon)
Plasma Spray (Energy Æthereal Weapon)

16 hours ago, Duvors said:

Well then, the simplest thing seems to do would be to say that you regain 1+successes.

Sure, but while 1 Spirit back is ok for early casters (who probably have at max 3 Spirit), it quickly loses it's advantage as the Spirit levels increase with levelling up casters.

[Duvors]

3 hours ago, Waterbrick Down said:

What about a 4th "weapon or damage" type? Æthereal? No Weapon bonus and it keys off the character's highest casting stat (Arcane/Religion/Nature/Occult) since the casting stat is already also being used for spells? It'd give casters a damage option for combat that doesn't consume Spirit, but it isn't as powerful as normal weapons since there isn't a Weapon Mod. Range could be unlimited, like most spells. Casters will then have 2 options that allow them to still feel "magical" every combat round if they desire, either cast a lower damage option with consistency or cast a higher damage/impactful option at the cost of a limited resource. Weapon would look like this:

No. Aside from making the whole weapon/armor type rock-paper-scissors more complicated (something that was explicitly minimized when designing the system) and creating a question of why spells don't use this special damage type, damage dealing isn't really the main draw of spellcasting to begin with. You can deal damage with anything, including yourself, and I'm not keen on allowing weapons with unlimited range back into the game to solve a problem I'm not even sure exists. Frankly, magic users will fell like magic users because they use magic, not because of how magic is balanced.

(Examined objectively, the balance of this idea is a mess to begin with. To start with, if there is no corresponding armor type, then they'd be the best weapons in the game simply because they would completely bypass the guaranteed armor successes and range penalties that do the majority of damage reduction. If there is a corresponding armor type, then the above holds true except when that armor is in play, in which case those guaranteed successes are going to have a seriously detrimental effect on their ability to deal damage.)

4 hours ago, Waterbrick Down said:

Sure, but while 1 Spirit back is ok for early casters (who probably have at max 3 Spirit), it quickly loses it's advantage as the Spirit levels increase with levelling up casters.

Well we're going to have to commit to something at some point, rather than dithering about how this or that isn't quite satisfactory. I suggested limited meditations per rest because it seemed a logical way to limit access to spirit while still allowing spells to be cast with relative consistency. You say it seems hard to remember, but honestly I don't agree. Having half your casting attribute in meditations per rest seems fairly easy to keep track of for a player, and MM's would have no requirement to track it themselves anyway.

[Classic_Spaceman]

On 1/31/2022 at 2:34 PM, Waterbrick Down said:

So that those who didn't want a spell build didn't feel like they had a wasted stat.

Ah, OK. 👍
If we introduce 0 Spirit spells, will this change? I ask because these would have unlimited usage, so even players who do not want a full spellcaster build may be interested in using them (case-in-point: Me). 
 

[Waterbrick Down]

On 2/1/2022 at 1:54 PM, Duvors said:

No. Aside from making the whole weapon/armor type rock-paper-scissors more complicated (something that was explicitly minimized when designing the system) and creating a question of why spells don't use this special damage type, damage dealing isn't really the main draw of spellcasting to begin with. You can deal damage with anything, including yourself, and I'm not keen on allowing weapons with unlimited range back into the game to solve a problem I'm not even sure exists. Frankly, magic users will fell like magic users because they use magic, not because of how magic is balanced.

Agreed, but if our Spirit system is such that magic users only use magic for 3 rounds of combat if they're lucky, it's a very short lived experience. I'd rather a system where in they have a "mostly" consistent experience, just like someone that invests in weapon proficiency or skill proficiency. Balance is there to keep play experience viable for as many play styles as possible. If we come to the conclusion that the playstyle of casters being able to cast "something" the "majority" of the time, is not achievable from a balance perspective, so be it, but I want to try at least.

On 2/1/2022 at 1:54 PM, Duvors said:

(Examined objectively, the balance of this idea is a mess to begin with. To start with, if there is no corresponding armor type, then they'd be the best weapons in the game simply because they would completely bypass the guaranteed armor successes and range penalties that do the majority of damage reduction. If there is a corresponding armor type, then the above holds true except when that armor is in play, in which case those guaranteed successes are going to have a seriously detrimental effect on their ability to deal damage.)

The idea was poorly worded in retrospect. I'm spitballing here (maybe a conversation better suited for Discord), the idea for a 4th damage type probably isn't the solution. I think giving spell weapons unlimited range at the cost of damage potential isn't terrible though. Plus it avoids the question of which do you use for counting successes, the casting proficiency or the weapon range proficiency? So in the end you have something like this:

Cantrip (Elemental Spell Weapon)

Casting Proficiency Successes vs. Skill Successes + Applicable Armor Mod = Damage

Will it be as powerful as an equivalent weapon proficiency? No. Will it give a caster something "magical" to do with their casting proficiency if they run out of Spirit? Yes.

I guess what I'm aiming for is something simpler than a whole new set of 0 Spirit cost spells (though I do enjoy designing them ), as well as working with the simpler Meditate solution of just letting MM dictate when the party can rest and get their Spirit back.

On 2/1/2022 at 1:54 PM, Duvors said:

Well we're going to have to commit to something at some point, rather than dithering about how this or that isn't quite satisfactory. I suggested limited meditations per rest because it seemed a logical way to limit access to spirit while still allowing spells to be cast with relative consistency. You say it seems hard to remember, but honestly I don't agree. Having half your casting attribute in meditations per rest seems fairly easy to keep track of for a player, and MM's would have no requirement to track it themselves anyway.

The rule itself is not necessarily hard to remember, it's simply another thing to remember (or look back through previous posts for) while a mission is ongoing or create another line on a character sheet for tracking.

2 hours ago, Classic_Spaceman said:

Ah, OK. 👍
If we introduce 0 Spirit spells, will this change? I ask because these would have unlimited usage, so even players who do not want a full spellcaster build may be interested in using them (case-in-point: Me). 
 

I don't think so, they are intended to be spells, so if someone is interested in them they can invest in the Stat that governs how many spells a PC can have. The alternative would be to have a holo-scroll.

[Duvors]

@Waterbrick Down

I think the thing I really object to about this is that both options seem to go against the issue that prompted the discussion in the first place. If casters have too many spell uses available, giving them free spells (even if they are weak) just brings us back to the same problem. And as for 'magic weapons', I don't like it because A: it deviates from the design we established for weapons (a system full of situational exceptions is against the design principle of simplicity and ease of use we've been trying to keep to), B: It adds additional power to attributes that already have a lot of power from a mechanically involved subsystem, and C: It breaks immersion.

(In more complex terms, if weapons and spells are mechanically distinct things, then shooting a gun simply does not feel the same as casting a spell, no matter how you flavor it. It creates questions such as 'why does this immaterial object take up space in my inventory' 'why doesn't this cost spirit' 'why don't I need a spell slot for this'. There are probably people who can reconcile this in their minds and want a weapon that is flavored as a spell, but in that case they can just use an existing weapon type. And how are players supposed to get access to this anyway? Do they have to buy it? Does it come in a starting kit? Do they get it free with their first point of spirit?)

There is also the issue that this really only benefits people who see spellcasters are ranged damage dealers first and foremost. As someone who plays a spellcaster and actively avoids taking damage-dealing spells because they don't fit the character I'm playing, I object to this strenuously.

[Flaming Bricks]

TO INFINITY AND BEYOND! Let's fight these space demons!

[Duvors]

I've decided that I'm not really satisfied with the fight I ran, so I'm going to run it again, but with a few changes. Since the last one was to test how the classes worked with meditate, I'll be running this one under the assumption that there is no meditate action. I'll also be altering the stats of the two combatants to better optimize them for this fight. First, the Martial Artist:

Azure
Vitality: 7
Velocity: 2
Strength: 4
Skill: 2
Smarts: 1
Spirit: 4
Spells: Healing Light, Photonic Modulation, Sickening Radiance, Warding Bond
Proficiencies: Acrobatics 1, Religion 5, Short Range 1
Equipment: Calibrated Kinetic Short Range, Standard Elemental Armor
Inventory: Plasma Potion

To start with, the two points in Velocity have been moved to Skill, which keeps their speed the same, but improves defense. Then Religion and Acrobatics switch places for better spell performance, and the two points now invested in acrobatics are moved again to Spirit. This adds an additional spell and a second extra attack at full. Quantum Transposition was never used, so it's removed and replaced with a ranged attack spell for emergencies, and a defensive spell for impeding Black's ranged attack.

Now for the Battlemage:

Black
Vitality: 6+2
Velocity: 3
Strength: 2
Skill: 2
Smarts: 2
Spirit: 4
Spells: Gravity Sink, Illusory Clone, Velocity Amplification, Warding Bond
Proficiencies: Arcana 5, Deception 1, Long Range 2, Stealth 1
Equipment: Standard Elemental Long Range, Standard Energy Armor
Inventory: Shield Booster, Plasma Potion

This is much less in-depth, since Black was already supremely effective. All I did was correct the Velocity and replace the unused Gravimetric Propulsion with an emergency melee spell.

This fight will take place on the same grid as last time, and all the rules are the same. To reduce the work, i'll be reusing rolls from the last fight in the order that they occurred. I'll also be taking no pictures this time, so I hope I can describe it all clearly.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Duvors

[Waterbrick Down]

4 hours ago, Duvors said:

@Waterbrick Down

I think the thing I really object to about this is that both options seem to go against the issue that prompted the discussion in the first place. If casters have too many spell uses available, giving them free spells (even if they are weak) just brings us back to the same problem. And as for 'magic weapons', I don't like it because A: it deviates from the design we established for weapons (a system full of situational exceptions is against the design principle of simplicity and ease of use we've been trying to keep to), B: It adds additional power to attributes that already have a lot of power from a mechanically involved subsystem, and C: It breaks immersion.

(In more complex terms, if weapons and spells are mechanically distinct things, then shooting a gun simply does not feel the same as casting a spell, no matter how you flavor it. It creates questions such as 'why does this immaterial object take up space in my inventory' 'why doesn't this cost spirit' 'why don't I need a spell slot for this'. There are probably people who can reconcile this in their minds and want a weapon that is flavored as a spell, but in that case they can just use an existing weapon type. And how are players supposed to get access to this anyway? Do they have to buy it? Does it come in a starting kit? Do they get it free with their first point of spirit?)

There is also the issue that this really only benefits people who see spellcasters are ranged damage dealers first and foremost. As someone who plays a spellcaster and actively avoids taking damage-dealing spells because they don't fit the character I'm playing, I object to this strenuously.

To be clear I think the main issue is really unlimited healing spells. Maybe we just need to adjust Healing Light and Entropic Mending?

Your points about having a spell "weapon" are valid and details I hadn't bothered with. Generally my thought structure is to problem solve something with a wide overarching concept and then tackle the nitty gritty details, but I'm glad to have someone assessing those from the onset.

Regarding your point about benefiting ranged damage spellcasters only, while the spell weapon idea certainly only impacts them, the intention as earlier stated is to provide viability to as many playstyles as possible. Right now the removal of meditate impacts the damage dealing spellcaster who doesn't want to use a weapon playstyle, so that is my focus for a fix. A support or utility caster probably won't be as impacted as most of those spells are either multi-round buff or debuffs.

1 hour ago, Duvors said:

I've decided that I'm not really satisfied with the fight I ran, so I'm going to run it again, but with a few changes. Since the last one was to test how the classes worked with meditate, I'll be running this one under the assumption that there is no meditate action. I'll also be altering the stats of the two combatants to better optimize them for this fight. First, the Martial Artist:

Thanks for rerunning, I'll be interested in how no Meditate impacts the battle.

[Duvors]

We begin round one with our combatants in the same position as last time. Rolling for initiative, the extra velocity proves decisive for Black, giving them two successes to Azure's one. Black, now able to move farther, runs to G8 and hides behind a pillar. Too far away to attack effectively, they instead choose to Defend themselves. Azure then moves to E3, before charging to F4 as part of a short range attack. The calibrated weapon cancels out the light obscurement of the pillar, but the range penalty is still -2. The roll fails anyway, but hitting wasn't the point. As a bonus, it removes Black's defend (which rolled three successes by-the-by).

Round two, Azure has only one success to Black's two, so Black goes first again. Unable to move out of Azure's movement range, Black instead shifts to D7 and attacks at long range. the rolls and bonuses give us two to Azure's three, so Azure takes no damage. Azure than returns the favor, moving to D6 and making three unarmed attacks. The first gets four successes to two, the second three to one, and the third three to one, dealing a grand total of 6 kinetic damage and bringing Black down to two vitality. Black is probably regretting not using Transmuter's Advantage last round.

Round three, initiative ties, roll again. Black gets two to one, so they go first. Black is now in a horrible position, the only option they have is to run back to G8 and drink their plasma potion. This brings them up to five vitality, will this save them?
Azure doesn't think so, moving to F8 and unleashing a blistering series of attacks. The first is two to nothing, the second is nothing to one (swingy much?), the third is two to one, running out to three damage, and Black is down to two Vitality again. Guess that plasma potion wasn't a good investment.

Round four, initiative is now three to nothing in Black's favor. Black, climbs up the balcony to H7 (upper) and casts Interposing Ward, leaving them with three Spirit... and one vitality.
This is where a problem with Eldrich Vigor appears, without healing or meditation, Black can't use most of their powerful defensive options in this situation without killing themselves. It might be better to have Eldrich Vigor apply at the start of a battle rather than remaining dynamic throughout.
Anyway, Azure is having none of this cowardice, and wants revenge for last time. Running up the pillar, they reach G7 (upper) without difficulty and unleash another series of blistering attacks. Their three successes (and Black's two) are negated by the ward, But Black can see the future, and knows that the next attack will be at two successes to Black's one. So they surrender without further resistance.

Well, Black made a foolish misstep by not using transmuter's advantage to start with, which would've allowed them to benifit from a use of the shield booster in the second round. I think the fear was that Azure would use Sickening Radiance in the first round. Still, having enough Vitality and shield bonuses would likely only delayed the final result. With increased Spirit and both combatants unwilling to cast their limited spells, the ball was firmly in Azure's court.

[Waterbrick Down]

5 minutes ago, Duvors said:

We begin round one with our combatants in the same position as last time. Rolling for initiative, the extra velocity proves decisive for Black, giving them two successes to Azure's one. Black, now able to move farther, runs to G8 and hides behind a pillar. Too far away to attack effectively, they instead choose to Defend themselves. Azure then moves to E3, before charging to F4 as part of a short range attack. The calibrated weapon cancels out the light obscurement of the pillar, but the range penalty is still -2. The roll fails anyway, but hitting wasn't the point. As a bonus, it removes Black's defend (which rolled three successes by-the-by).

Round two, Azure has only one success to Black's two, so Black goes first again. Unable to move out of Azure's movement range, Black instead shifts to D7 and attacks at long range. the rolls and bonuses give us two to Azure's three, so Azure takes no damage. Azure than returns the favor, moving to D6 and making three unarmed attacks. The first gets four successes to two, the second three to one, and the third three to one, dealing a grand total of 6 kinetic damage and bringing Black down to two vitality. Black is probably regretting not using Transmuter's Advantage last round.

Round three, initiative ties, roll again. Black gets two to one, so they go first. Black is now in a horrible position, the only option they have is to run back to G8 and drink their plasma potion. This brings them up to five vitality, will this save them?
Azure doesn't think so, moving to F8 and unleashing a blistering series of attacks. The first is two to nothing, the second is nothing to one (swingy much?), the third is two to one, running out to three damage, and Black is down to two Vitality again. Guess that plasma potion wasn't a good investment.

Round four, initiative is now three to nothing in Black's favor. Black, climbs up the balcony to H7 (upper) and casts Interposing Ward, leaving them with three Spirit... and one vitality.
This is where a problem with Eldrich Vigor appears, without healing or meditation, Black can't use most of their powerful defensive options in this situation without killing themselves. It might be better to have Eldrich Vigor apply at the start of a battle rather than remaining dynamic throughout.
Anyway, Azure is having none of this cowardice, and wants revenge for last time. Running up the pillar, they reach G7 (upper) without difficulty and unleash another series of blistering attacks. Their three successes (and Black's two) are negated by the ward, But Black can see the future, and knows that the next attack will be at two successes to Black's one. So they surrender without further resistance.

Good note about Eldritch Vigor, having it provide a boost at the beginning of battle keeps it from becoming confusing should they find a way to restore Spirit in the middle of combat. As for the results, it really goes to show how having multiple attacks can be powerful. Also having limited Spirit means the Battlemage will probably only get a few uses out of Infused Strike (not necessarily a bad thing, but it does change the feel of the class feature). Comparing the classes is interesting. The Monk benefits the most out of the their features if they refrain from casting Spirit, the Battlemage is more wonky in that they have to cast Spirit if they want make the most of their features.

[Duvors]

6 minutes ago, Waterbrick Down said:

Good note about Eldritch Vigor, having it provide a boost at the beginning of battle keeps it from becoming confusing should they find a way to restore Spirit in the middle of combat. As for the results, it really goes to show how having multiple attacks can be powerful. Also having limited Spirit means the Battlemage will probably only get a few uses out of Infused Strike (not necessarily a bad thing, but it does change the feel of the class feature). Comparing the classes is interesting. The Monk benefits the most out of the their features if they refrain from casting Spirit, the Battlemage is more wonky in that they have to cast Spirit if they want make the most of their features.

That's because that's how the MA was intended to work. The Battlemage on the other hand was intended for a more dynamic playstyle that made heavy use of meditation. Without it it doesn't really function as intended.

20 minutes ago, Waterbrick Down said:

Regarding your point about benefiting ranged damage spellcasters only, while the spell weapon idea certainly only impacts them, the intention as earlier stated is to provide viability to as many playstyles as possible. Right now the removal of meditate impacts the damage dealing spellcaster who doesn't want to use a weapon playstyle, so that is my focus for a fix. A support or utility caster probably won't be as impacted as most of those spells are either multi-round buff or debuffs.

As someone who plays a support caster, I don't want a feature that effectively forces me to occupy a niche I don't want, and it feels unfair that attack casters get a shiny free toy for their palystyle while support casters don't.
Also, I don't really agree with the assessment that support casters aren't as badly impacted by the lack of meditate. I can't exactly explain why this is, I think it has something to do with the fact the the spell I use the most is Healing Light, and I really need to have spirit on hand at all times in case I need to cast it. Other spells can reduce damage for a single ally, but that leaves everyone else. Even with Meditate I did most of my combat healing with potions, because meditate costs an extra action that I might not be able to afford in a pinch.

[Waterbrick Down]

11 minutes ago, Duvors said:

That's because that's how the MA was intended to work. The Battlemage on the other hand was intended for a more dynamic playstyle that made heavy use of meditation. Without it it doesn't really function as intended.

Agreed. What if we made Meditate a special action for them that way they could keep that dynamic?

14 minutes ago, Duvors said:

As someone who plays a support caster, I don't want a feature that effectively forces me to occupy a niche I don't want, and it feels unfair that attack casters get a shiny free toy for their palystyle while support casters don't.
Also, I don't really agree with the assessment that support casters aren't as badly impacted by the lack of meditate. I can't exactly explain why this is, I think it has something to do with the fact the the spell I use the most is Healing Light, and I really need to have spirit on hand at all times in case I need to cast it. Other spells can reduce damage for a single ally, but that leaves everyone else. Even with Meditate I did most of my combat healing with potions, because meditate costs an extra action that I might not be able to afford in a pinch.

Maybe I'm missing something? How would figuring out an effective way for the damage caster to exist without Meditation force you to occupy a niche you don't want? Most support casters spells (Alter Form, Charm, Enhanced Vision, Gravimetric Propulsion, Mystic Binding, Photonic Modulation, Restful Sleep) tend to last multiple rounds thus they don't burn through Spirit as quickly as a damage focused caster. The main support spell exception, Healing Light, is the spell that's causing the issue with the tone of certain missions. So no, I don't think support casters need a shiny free toy with the removal of Meditate. Damage casters are the ones inadvertently impacted by the removal. 

[Duvors]

2 hours ago, Waterbrick Down said:

Maybe I'm missing something? How would figuring out an effective way for the damage caster to exist without Meditation force you to occupy a niche you don't want? Most support casters spells (Alter Form, Charm, Enhanced Vision, Gravimetric Propulsion, Mystic Binding, Photonic Modulation, Restful Sleep) tend to last multiple rounds thus they don't burn through Spirit as quickly as a damage focused caster. The main support spell exception, Healing Light, is the spell that's causing the issue with the tone of certain missions. So no, I don't think support casters need a shiny free toy with the removal of Meditate. Damage casters are the ones inadvertently impacted by the removal. 

I was still talking about the specific solution proposed (spell weapons), not about abstract ideas. As for support spells in general, You seem to be operating on the assumption that a caster will cast one spell and wait for the timer to run out before casting another. The rules don't really give any reason to act like this, and changing that would create long periods where spellcasters aren't casting spells. It can in fact be argued that there are very good reasons to pile on as many long-duration spells as possible in as short a time as possible (though this is something that ought to be limited somehow considering how the Battlemage abused this in my first test battle). The point I'm trying to make about healing light is that it's such an important spell that it supersedes a lot of other spells in importance - the same goes for warding bond and illusory clone - thus, people are more likely to keep spirit in reserve to cast it instead of casting other spells. And people don't really have a lot of spirit to spend to begin with. Without some leeway in the amount they can spend, people are strongly incentivized to only ever cast a few of the 'best' spells and leave the rest untouched. 

I want to make it clear, I don't want some shiny free ability for support casters, I don't want free spell abilities at all. I'm simply trying to point out that this would be perceived and unfairly favoring a certain playstyle even if it isn't. And honestly, slapping on a special case rule to fix a wonky balance issue rather than trying to make a consistent system seems slapdash.

2 hours ago, Waterbrick Down said:

Agreed. What if we made Meditate a special action for them that way they could keep that dynamic?

Firstly, see above sentence re. special case rules. Second: a Special Action? As in, something they can do every round at no cost?

Skipping over that, we're still left with the question of what it's replacing. As a special action (why) it could replace Empowered Strike (the feature that encourages it to spend spirit in the first place) or Eldrich Vigor (which was intended to allow for more survivability for a non-strength combat class). If we keep it an action then the only thing it can replace is Transmuter's Advantage. TA is probably a bit overpowered anyway, but... it doesn't feel right. It raises the question of why 'meditate' is a feature of the Eldrich Knight class instead of the Kung-Fu Monk class.

Edited February 4, 2022 by Duvors

[Waterbrick Down]

34 minutes ago, Duvors said:

I was still talking about the specific solution proposed (spell weapons), not about abstract ideas. As for support spells in general, You seem to be operating on the assumption that a caster will cast one spell and wait for the timer to run out before casting another. The rules don't really give any reason to act like this, and changing that would create long periods where spellcasters aren't casting spells. It can in fact be argued that there are very good reasons to pile on as many long-duration spells as possible in as short a time as possible (though this is something that ought to be limited somehow considering how the Battlemage abused this in my first test battle). The point I'm trying to make about healing light is that it's such an important spell that it supersedes a lot of other spells in importance - the same goes for warding bond and illusory clone - thus, people are more likely to keep spirit in reserve to cast it instead of casting other spells. And people don't really have a lot of spirit to spend to begin with. Without some leeway in the amount they can spend, people are strongly incentivized to only ever cast a few of the 'best' spells and leave the rest untouched. 

I want to make it clear, I don't want some shiny free ability for support casters, I don't want free spell abilities at all. I'm simply trying to point out that this would be perceived and unfairly favoring a certain playstyle even if it isn't. And honestly, slapping on a special case rule to fix a wonky balance issue rather than trying to make a consistent system seems slapdash.

Which is why potentially just adjusting Healing Light/Entropic Mending might actually be the easiest fix since they're the biggest culprits. In the end the issue isn't so much that mages are casting too often because of the Meditate action, the issue is certain spells can be abused in a way that dramatically can change the tone/feel of a mission. Any ideas if we were to change the spells? I feel like just saying that those two can only be used in combat would force party's to extend combats just so everyone could be healed up.

35 minutes ago, Duvors said:

Firstly, see above sentence re. special case rules. Second: a Special Action? As in, something they can do every round at no cost?

Skipping over that, we're still left with the question of what it's replacing. As a special action (why) it could replace Empowered Strike (the feature that encourages it to spend spirit in the first place) or Eldrich Vigor (which was intended to allow for more survivability for a non-strength combat class). If we keep it an action then the only thing it can replace is Transmuter's Advantage. TA is probably a bit overpowered anyway, but... it doesn't feel right. It raises the question of why 'meditate' is a feature of the Eldrich Knight class instead of the Kung-Fu Monk class.

The idea was to replace Transmuter's Advantage and it doesn't have to be called Meditate (to avoid the question of why doesn't the Martial Artist get it), it would just function as a Spirit Restoring action that way the Battlemage would have the cyclic playstyle of cast - attack - "meditate - repeat.