[TC20] Technic Studless Recreation Contest - Information Topic

[SaperPL]

Just now, Jim said:

There is a single hyperlink for your convenience. You can click it and you will see all the entries 

But I'm laaazy :D

Anyway, what's the comment option for? I am okay to say for example that from my point of view this, this and this entry didn't adhere to the rules or for example link to my scoring spreadsheet ? :D

[Jim]

1 minute ago, SaperPL said:

Anyway, what's the comment option for? I am okay to say for example that from my point of view this, this and this entry didn't adhere to the rules or for example link to my scoring spreadsheet ? :D

Simply stick to the voting. You can make an extra comment below or above your votes, but please keep it simple. 

2 minutes ago, SaperPL said:

But I'm laaazy :D

Me too. That's why I gave you only one link  

[Milan]

1 hour ago, SaperPL said:

But I'm laaazy :D

We have added links to the entries, so even the laziest ones can vote comfortably

If anyone finds a wrong link, let me know.
If anyone finds two or more wrong links, don't even bother 

[Jim]

I'm sure @SaperPL will be here to thank you shortly  

Thanks buddy!

[SaperPL]

50 minutes ago, Milan said:

We have added links to the entries, so even the laziest ones can vote comfortably

 

15 minutes ago, Jim said:

I'm sure @SaperPL will be here to thank you shortly  

Awesome, Thanks! :D

Also, I took my vote, but it was hard and painful because some of my top 6 were really tied in quality and I had to give some of those significantly lower amount of points.

@Jim - do you think it would be possible for future contests to have option to choose alternate voting points spread if I felt that there were ties at each step? For example 6 points for #1 and #2, 4 points for #3 and #4 and 3 points for #5 and #6 which still adds up to the same total amount of point, but it's not like you can favour anyone specifically by giving him like 20 points at once. Alternatively having option to select 5 which you like and give 4 of them 5 points and 6 points to the one you like the most. I feel like the jump from 10 to 6 points is pretty steep especially when I had really hard time picking between two or three from the top of my list.

[Jim]

13 minutes ago, SaperPL said:

@Jim - do you think it would be possible for future contests to have option to choose alternate voting points spread if I felt that there were ties at each step? For example 6 points for #1 and #2, 4 points for #3 and #4 and 3 points for #5 and #6 which still adds up to the same total amount of point, but it's not like you can favour anyone specifically by giving him like 20 points at once. Alternatively having option to select 5 which you like and give 4 of them 5 points and 6 points to the one you like the most. I feel like the jump from 10 to 6 points is pretty steep especially when I had really hard time picking between two or three from the top of my list.

Nope. This is it 

We used to have 10 or 20 points which you could distribute evenly, but this setup (with the gap between 10 and 6) is meant to make a decision. Otherwise people will simply choose 5 entries and give each 2 points. That's not what we are looking for.

That being said; if the majority thinks the current system is not suitable, we are always willing to listen.

[SaperPL]

27 minutes ago, Jim said:

We used to have 10 or 20 points which you could distribute evenly, but this setup (with the gap between 10 and 6) is meant to make a decision. Otherwise people will simply choose 5 entries and give each 2 points. That's not what we are looking for.

I feel like the system with a gap is good for contests where there are strict rules for models being somewhat in the same theme/scale like the previous two contests, but this one was kind of different as since you don't have apples-to-apples comparison, at some point you're going to just pick a random thing from two which are both top quality and adhering to the rules, or for example comparing small hovercraft model to a big truck you'll end up having to chose simply by theme and scale which you like more rather than trying to objectively rate each of those.

Anyway we'll have to see what others have to say if at all it's on their mind after this contest.

[Jim]

I'm pretty sure the voting scheme isn't that important at all. The same entries will probably end up in the top-3 regardless how the points can be distributed.

We did have a poll a while ago and the "20 points system" was close runner-up. I don't mind trying that one out if more people are interested, but I am not convinced the end result will be different. But if it's more fun for the voters, that would be a good reason.

[Burko-uk]

I'm happy to not have fifty posts, so don't have to pick a top 6!

Good to see so many entries - clearly a good topic. Maybe in the future we can do the same but reversed - studded versions of studless models?

[Jurss]

@Jim link in voting topic is to TC19 discussion topic

[RuTechBrothers]

Maybe it's worth registering the start of voting as news and pinning it on the forum's home screen (portal tab)? A larger number of people will make the audience vote more objective.

Edited August 11, 2021 by RuTechBrothers

[Jim]

32 minutes ago, RuTechBrothers said:

Maybe it's worth registering the start of voting as news and pinning it on the forum's home screen (portal tab)? A larger number of people will make the audience vote more objective.

True! I usually do that, but I totally forgot. I will do that later today.

sidenote; I am not sure it’s better to have more people voting without knowledge of the contest. They will simply vote for cool MOCs. But that’s a different discussion.

1 hour ago, Jurss said:

@Jim link in voting topic is to TC19 discussion topic

Fixed it. Thanks.

[howitzer]

15 hours ago, Jim said:

I'm pretty sure the voting scheme isn't that important at all. The same entries will probably end up in the top-3 regardless how the points can be distributed.

We did have a poll a while ago and the "20 points system" was close runner-up. I don't mind trying that one out if more people are interested, but I am not convinced the end result will be different. But if it's more fun for the voters, that would be a good reason.

I think it's actually a good thing that the voting system wouldn't change the results. That way the most popular entries will win, no matter what, and there won't be much room for playing the rules to gain advantage.

[Erik Leppen]

What makes it hard is the huge number of entries this time.

I think the formula 1 style 10-6-4-3-2-1 point system works great with moderate number of entries. But with a whopping 46 entries, of which a great deal of such high quality... man, it's hard to pick just 6 :D

Right now I've made a selection and ended up with 8 favorites, so I have to decide which 2 of them will get zero points, even though I think they're really good. So, off to creating a spreadsheet I guess :)

Note: this is not a post asking to change the voting system. I actually agree with Jim that it probably makes very little difference. I just wanted to say that there're so many great entries this time :)

 

Edit: I do have to say though, there are quite a few entries where the images don't work. I wonder if it's just me, but on 5 or so entries, I just see a row of green icons and very long codes that look like some kind of generated links.

Edited August 11, 2021 by Erik Leppen

[Milan]

17 minutes ago, Erik Leppen said:

I do have to say though, there are quite a few entries where the images don't work. I wonder if it's just me, but on 5 or so entries, I just see a row of green icons and very long codes that look like some kind of generated links.

I have just checked the entry topic, and except the 8880 (that was disqualified because it lost the pics at one moment), they all work for me.

[howitzer]

15 minutes ago, Erik Leppen said:

What makes it hard is the huge number of entries this time.

I think the formula 1 style 10-6-4-3-2-1 point system works great with moderate number of entries. But with a whopping 46 entries, of which a great deal of such high quality... man, it's hard to pick just 6 :D

Right now I've made a selection and ended up with 8 favorites, so I have to decide which 2 of them will get zero points, even though I think they're really good. So, off to creating a spreadsheet I guess :)

Note: this is not a post asking to change the voting system. I actually agree with Jim that it probably makes very little difference. I just wanted to say that there're so many great entries this time :)

 

Edit: I do have to say though, there are quite a few entries where the images don't work. I wonder if it's just me, but on 5 or so entries, I just see a row of green icons and very long codes that look like some kind of generated links.

I went through the entry topic and found only one (the disqualified one) entry without working images, so I guess it's just you. Maybe try another browser or something?

The selection was indeed a difficult one, both due to the number of entries and their quality. I don't think there were any entry that I immediately dismissed as undeserving of points - I wanted to reward all of them with at least some points.

[Seasider]

@Erik Leppen I made a spreadsheet and did Yes/No/Maybes. The found I had 10 Yes responses so then compared them 1 by one eg 1 to 2, 1 to 3, 2 to 3, etc and this gave me my ranking to select my top 6. The comparison ranking method is something we use at work to help select and score concepts.

[Maaboo the Witch]

Just now, Seasider said:

@Erik Leppen I made a spreadsheet and did Yes/No/Maybes.

I did "Yes/No/Maybe/I Don't Know, Could You Repeat The Question?". 

35 minutes ago, howitzer said:

I don't think there were any entry that I immediately dismissed as undeserving of points - I wanted to reward all of them with at least some points.

Yeah, every entry is cool in its own way.

[Jim]

11 hours ago, Erik Leppen said:

I think the formula 1 style 10-6-4-3-2-1 point system works great with moderate number of entries. But with a whopping 46 entries, of which a great deal of such high quality... man, it's hard to pick just 6 :D

That is actually an important argument. Since we had over 60 entries last contest and over 40 now, it might be better to go for 20 points. I will keep that in mind for next contest.

[SaperPL]

21 hours ago, howitzer said:

I think it's actually a good thing that the voting system wouldn't change the results. That way the most popular entries will win, no matter what, and there won't be much room for playing the rules to gain advantage.

I actually think it could. Considering the rules and the spirit of the current contest, the size and complexity of the model might have not been taken into account as deciding factor. In this situation where your hovercraft and and GerritvdG's forklifts were perfectly executed along bigger builds and these would have landed many times as a third and fourth and sixths because they are smaller means that if there was an even split of points or smaller gap between the places, if those smaller models were picked more often than the some that were picked as firsts, it could make a difference.

With that said, I wonder how many people actually focused on perfect execution of the task when voting rather than the complexity of the model. We'll probably see it in the results, but I wonder if my approach to the terms was correct.

[howitzer]

8 minutes ago, SaperPL said:

I actually think it could. Considering the rules and the spirit of the current contest, the size and complexity of the model might have not been taken into account as deciding factor. In this situation where your hovercraft and and GerritvdG's forklifts were perfectly executed along bigger builds and these would have landed many times as a third and fourth and sixths because they are smaller means that if there was an even split of points or smaller gap between the places, if those smaller models were picked more often than the some that were picked as firsts, it could make a difference.

With that said, I wonder how many people actually focused on perfect execution of the task when voting rather than the complexity of the model. We'll probably see it in the results, but I wonder if my approach to the terms was correct.

Perhaps so. I was a bit concerned about this at the model selection, but then I decided that I want to do a model that's enjoyable to build and one that I can build faithfully to the original, rather than something big and flashy with poor execution.

At least many people who have commented about their voting criteria have mentioned that they specifically look for the faithfulness of the model and use of contemporary parts, and so on, so I think the smaller models will get their fair share of attention. Of course big models are harder to execute properly, so some might think that deserves extra credit, but the voting criteria is in the end a personal choice of every voter.

[SaperPL]

13 minutes ago, howitzer said:

Of course big models are harder to execute properly, so some might think that deserves extra credit

Well, that's the dilemma here because cutting some slack to someone who picked something big and couldn't execute it perfectly vs someone who picked up something  small to execute it perfectly may or may not be unfair. Picking up a good set for this contest was also part of the challenge, and for example like I said in Samolot's entry topic, I feel like he picked a set that couldn't be built with all the features functioning the same because the air tanks are not available anymore. This might have been a trap for many more complex sets that you could fall in where there was some kind of part that was crucial for the functioning of it that's not made anymore.

So it's like whether should we cut those contestant some slack and give extra credit to them for picking up something that was hard to do, or should we give extra credit to the ones that picked an optimal set to for the task to execute perfectly? Obviously if someone perfectly executed a big and complex model, then it deserves extra credit like you said, but not if someone cut corners when it comes to the rules of the contest and made a great model, but did not meet all requirements stated in rules.

By the way vetting against the rules should be first before rating what you like the most IMO. Because if we ended up with top 10 amazing models that are not adhering to the rules and the Jury is picking from these, while there were perfectly executed entries by the rules that didn't get to this phase because they were slightly smaller and easier to make, it wouldn't be fair and would mean the voting system is flawed this way.

[Jim]

13 minutes ago, SaperPL said:

Because if we ended up with top 10 amazing models that are not adhering to the rules and the Jury is picking from these, while there were perfectly executed entries by the rules that didn't get to this phase because they were slightly smaller and easier to make, it wouldn't be fair and would mean the voting system is flawed this way.

Yup, that could be an issue. And I hope the top 10 will contain the models we were looking for. Time will tell.

[howitzer]

15 minutes ago, SaperPL said:

By the way vetting against the rules should be first before rating what you like the most IMO. Because if we ended up with top 10 amazing models that are not adhering to the rules and the Jury is picking from these, while there were perfectly executed entries by the rules that didn't get to this phase because they were slightly smaller and easier to make, it wouldn't be fair and would mean the voting system is flawed this way.

I'm actually a bit baffled by the decision to have the voting in the first stage and the jury decision in the second, instead of the other way around. I would've preferred a "qualifying round" where the jury decides which contestants adhere to the rules best and also select the best entries, while leaving the determination of the winner to voters. Not that it would've been easy task either way, considering the sheer number and quality of the entries.

Still, I'm really happy about the contest, lots of fun were had and I'm really satisfied with my own entry, regardless of which position it'll end up.

Edited August 12, 2021 by howitzer

[Jim]

Just now, howitzer said:

I'm actually a bit baffled by the decision to have the voting in the first stage and the jury decision in the second, instead of the other way around. I would've preferred a "qualifying round" where the jury decides which contestants adhere to the rules best and also select the best entries, while leaving the determination of the winner to voters. Not that it would've been easy task either way, considering the sheer number and quality of the entries.

That might have been the better choice. But we have made that decision, so we can't change it anymore.