Heroica: Glory Amongst The Stars - Class Development Discussion

[Duvors]

• Renamed Warlock's second trait and the Sorcerer class (Conjurer).
• Altered the actions of Assassin, Ætherdiver, Martial Artist, and Outlander, as well as the Swashbuckler's Parry.
• Fixed the syntax of the Illusionist, Priest, and Engineer's actions.
• Added a provisional Empath class for players who want psychic powers.

Edited July 9, 2021 by Duvors

[Duvors]

• Fiddled with the wording of the Warlock's action.
• Changed the actions of the Detective and Swashbuckler.

[Duvors]

I've fiddled with the Outlander and Detective's actions.

[Duvors]

Undid latest change to Outlander and altered Swashbuckler's Parry trait.

Edited July 30, 2021 by Duvors

[Duvors]

If no-one else responds at some point I'm just going to call this done and move on to other things.

[Waterbrick Down]

22 hours ago, Duvors said:

If no-one else responds at some point I'm just going to call this done and move on to other things.

Sorry a bit of an overwhelming schedule at the moment, I should have time to give everything a good look this week.

[Waterbrick Down]

Alrighty class thoughts:

• Assassin: Perhaps Intimidation instead of Coding for Proficiency Requirements?
• Ætherdiver: Is "System Exploit" fixed for the duration of a mission or can the Proficiency be changed? Is the intention for "Up From The Deep" to be a combat only action? Otherwise all Proficiency checks for the group will be Lucky.
• Battlemage: Good to go
• Berserker: Good to go
• Crusader: Maybe change "Smite" so that it adds Religion proficiency to the Weapon Modifier at a Spirit Cost? This would allows for some differentiation from Assassin. You can't stack it, but it'd be a guaranteed success.
• Conjurer: Razzmatazz feels like a second action and I'm already a fan of their current action. Perhaps it adds a chance to apply a negative effect when making an attack?
• Detective: Proficiencies match Empath very closely, maybe consider swapping Stealth or Sleight-of-hand for Intimidation
• Engineer: Would it make sense to limit "Tinkering Hands" to non-healing Consumables?
• Empath: For "Speak to Thoughts" Perhaps a better wording would be to allow them to cast "Speak with Distance" a number of times equal to Smarts?
• Espatier: Proficiencies seem too close to Engineer, maybe replace Explosives with something?
• Guardian: Comparing "Protective" to the Espatier's "Semper Fai" the Guardian's attribute seems pretty poor. Perhaps add Skill Dice equal to Armor Mod when taking Defend Action.
• Gunslinger: Good to go
• Hacker: Perhaps a rewording and slight buff of "Cyber Swipe" - Make a Technology Proficiency check vs. mechanical target’s Smarts. On a win, the target's next check has less successes equal to the difference. 
• Hermit: Good to go
• Illusionist: Good to go
• Mage: Good to go
• Martial Artist: Good to go
• Medic: Good to go
• Outlander: "Focused" seems very situational as it feels like there are not a lot of times a Perception Proficiency check is being used in combat. Perhaps change to: "Focused Shot (action) - Next Weapon Check rolls max number of successes."
• Priest: Good to go
• Prosecutor: "Intimidating" needs a new name, perhaps Imposing Countenance?
• Pugilist: Good to go
• Scholar: Is "Research" intended to be limited to combat? Otherwise we'll end up with the same issue as "Up From The Deep" with all party Proficiency checks being Lucky from then on. Eye for detail seems too close to Detective's "Little Grey Cells" maybe allow for a number of casts of Speak with Understanding equal to Smarts?
• Scoundrel: Good to go
• Skald: Good to go
• Summoner: Good to go
• Swashbuckler Good to go
• Warlock: Good to go
• Warrior: Similar to the Guardian's "Protective", perhaps have "Tactical" add Dice equal to Amor Mod for when using the Rally action?
• Witch: Good

I think we're really close and you've done a ton of work to get us here @Duvors so thank you very much and well done!

[Duvors]

@Waterbrick Down

• Assassin: Done,
• Ætherdiver: I'll clarify System Exploit as once per mission. Up From the Deep is intended to be out-of-combat so I think we need to change how it works.
• Crusader: If I understand how it's supposed to work correctly then that would be objectively worse than the Assassin's feature. I'd assumed it meant flat successes in both cases rather than extra dice. In any case not being able to stack it will probably cause it to lag behind Ambush anyway (and tying it explicitly to Spirit will restrict the class to spellcasters only, whereas currently one can play a Crusader without spells).
• Conjurer: Done.
• Detective: Intimidation is the only requirement those two don't share, I doubt changing it would help to differentiate the two.
• Engineer: Done.
• Empath: The intent of Speak to Thoughts is that it cannot be replied to but doesn't cost spirit, and I'm loath to just say 'you cast this spell' because I specifically want to distinguish it from spellcasting. Again, I may need to change how this works.
• Espatier: I'd rather not, as only those two classes require Explosives to begin with. I'll replace Engineering with Coding for now.
• Guardian: Done.
• Hacker: Done.
• Outlander: Done.
• Prosecutor: Changed to 'Imposing'.
• Scholar: I don't know, you designed the class. I'll remove the feature for the moment until we think of something. Again, I don't want to just fall back on 'you cast this spell' for class features, I'd like them to remain distinct so that they don't become redundant with one another. I've come up with something more unique and made a minor overhaul of the class in the process.
• Warrior: Done.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Duvors

[Duvors]

After some thinking about it I've altered 'Speak to Thoughts' so that it can be used to hold proper conversations, something the Tongues spell is ill-suited to. I've also come up with a new action for the Ætherdiver.

[Waterbrick Down]

4 hours ago, Duvors said:

@Waterbrick Down

• Assassin: Done,
• Ætherdiver: I'll clarify System Exploit as once per mission. Up From the Deep is intended to be out-of-combat so I think we need to change how it works.
• Crusader: If I understand how it's supposed to work correctly then that would be objectively worse than the Assassin's feature. I'd assumed it meant flat successes in both cases rather than extra dice. In any case not being able to stack it will probably cause it to lag behind Ambush anyway (and tying it explicitly to Spirit will restrict the class to spellcasters only, whereas currently one can play a Crusader without spells).
• Conjurer: Done.
• Detective: Intimidation is the only requirement those two don't share, I doubt changing it would help to differentiate the two.
• Engineer: Done.
• Empath: The intent of Speak to Thoughts is that it cannot be replied to but doesn't cost spirit, and I'm loath to just say 'you cast this spell' because I specifically want to distinguish it from spellcasting. Again, I may need to change how this works.
• Espatier: I'd rather not, as only those two classes require Explosives to begin with. I'll replace Engineering with Coding for now.
• Guardian: Done.
• Hacker: Done.
• Outlander: Done.
• Prosecutor: Changed to 'Imposing'.
• Scholar: I don't know, you designed the class. I'll remove the feature for the moment until we think of something. Again, I don't want to just fall back on 'you cast this spell' for class features, I'd like them to remain distinct so that they don't become redundant with one another. I've come up with something more unique and made a minor overhaul of the class in the process.
• Warrior: Done.

15 minutes ago, Duvors said:

After some thinking about it I've altered 'Speak to Thoughts' so that it can be used to hold proper conversations, something the Tongues spell is ill-suited to. I've also come up with a new action for the Ætherdiver.

• Ætherdiver: Good to go
• Crusader: Good point about keeping it separate from a spell caster. I always imagine both Ambush and Smite would originally give extra dice instead of auto successes. Otherwise that seems really strong. I'm not totally opposed to Assassin's and Crusaders have a similar type of action, I was just looking for a point of mechanical differentiation for their actions. Crusader to me is the paladin equivalent and I was thinking they'd have more nova damage that was resource dependent rather than the Assassin's one big hit that took turns to setup.
• Detective: Perhaps, Persuasion then? Or may be we change Empath's proficiencies? I know the feel of the classes are different, but they cover some of the same niches, mainly really good perception.
• Empath: Much better. Good to go. The original intention was simply to allow for a simpler way of explaining the same concept without creating a brand new thing.
• Espatier: Good to go
• Prosecutor: Good to go
• Scholar: Another idea for "Well Read" You can swap a non-weapon Proficiencies for another non-weapon Proficiency you currently do not have a number of times equal to your Smarts. Perhaps for the action: "Research (Action) - Copy a target's Proficiency for the remainder of the mission. The number of proficiencies acquired this way is equal to your smarts."

[Duvors]

@Waterbrick Down

• Crusader: Extra die then, good. But I'm not sure about making Smite just 'attack +' as that would seem more like a trait. Perhaps it adds Religion in return for not being able to attack next turn?
• Detective/Empath: I think the best course is to change the Empath's persuasion for something else, I'll make it Deception for now.
• Scholar: Does this alternate 'Well Read' have a duration? For balance reasons it probably should. I like the 'falling forward' aspect of the current one but the versatility offered here is tempting, I think I'll use it. As for the action, that's a good idea, I'll implement it.

[Duvors]

@Waterbrick Down

After thinking it over, I think the Crusader's action is fine as it is. I have however altered the Detective's action to remove the stacking part, as it's primarily an out-of-combat action so that aspect didn't make sense and would be too hard to balance.

On another note, I have a couple of prototype classes hanging out in the 'Future Ideas' section, namely a Fighter Ace and a reworked Verdant Knight.

[Waterbrick Down]

On 8/4/2021 at 3:59 PM, Duvors said:

@Waterbrick Down

• Crusader: Extra die then, good. But I'm not sure about making Smite just 'attack +' as that would seem more like a trait. Perhaps it adds Religion in return for not being able to attack next turn?
• Detective/Empath: I think the best course is to change the Empath's persuasion for something else, I'll make it Deception for now.
• Scholar: Does this alternate 'Well Read' have a duration? For balance reasons it probably should. I like the 'falling forward' aspect of the current one but the versatility offered here is tempting, I think I'll use it. As for the action, that's a good idea, I'll implement it.

2 hours ago, Duvors said:

@Waterbrick Down

After thinking it over, I think the Crusader's action is fine as it is. I have however altered the Detective's action to remove the stacking part, as it's primarily an out-of-combat action so that aspect didn't make sense and would be too hard to balance.

On another note, I have a couple of prototype classes hanging out in the 'Future Ideas' section, namely a Fighter Ace and a reworked Verdant Knight.

Not sure how I missed your earlier reply on this one:

• Crusader: That works for me. If we need to make changes as we go along for better balance/uniqueness we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.
• Detective: I like the rework and it thematically makes sense. Moving Empath's Persuasion proficiency to Deception also seems a good fix to distinguish it from Detective.
• Scholar: "Well Read" would be a mission long duration. It's essentially allowing a player to rework their Proficiencies to what is handy for the situation in the mission, though a limited number of times and not in a way they could take advantage of for a combat. If we feel it's too powerful, we could state that it resets after combats.
• Fighter Ace: Even though its a bit of a niche class, I really like all the features and think the second Trait makes up for the more situation specific Action.
• Verdant Knight: Thematically strong, I like the tie between the second Trait and the Action. Without it I'd feel like the Knight would have no option but to maximize Vitality as high as possible to even survive combat. With the action it gives them incentive to actually relish in it.

[Duvors]

33 minutes ago, Waterbrick Down said:

Not sure how I missed your earlier reply on this one:

• Crusader: That works for me. If we need to make changes as we go along for better balance/uniqueness we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.
• Detective: I like the rework and it thematically makes sense. Moving Empath's Persuasion proficiency to Deception also seems a good fix to distinguish it from Detective.
• Scholar: "Well Read" would be a mission long duration. It's essentially allowing a player to rework their Proficiencies to what is handy for the situation in the mission, though a limited number of times and not in a way they could take advantage of for a combat. If we feel it's too powerful, we could state that it resets after combats.

F.A.B.

33 minutes ago, Waterbrick Down said:

 

• Fighter Ace: Even though its a bit of a niche class, I really like all the features and think the second Trait makes up for the more situation specific Action.
• Verdant Knight: Thematically strong, I like the tie between the second Trait and the Action. Without it I'd feel like the Knight would have no option but to maximize Vitality as high as possible to even survive combat. With the action it gives them incentive to actually relish in it.

Thank you. With regards to the Fighter Ace, the second trait is intended to apply to both handheld and mounted weapons. The entire class is designed to be useable without a specific set of vehicle rules already established.

It occurs to me that, with the Crusader, Detective, and Scholar effectively done, the class system is more-or-less ready for launch. The Fighter Ace and Verdant Knight aren't part of the core list at the moment and can be added later if deemed worthy.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Duvors

[Waterbrick Down]

38 minutes ago, Duvors said:

F.A.B.

Thank you. With regards to the Fighter Ace, the second trait is intended to apply to both handheld and mounted weapons. The entire class is designed to be useable without a specific set of vehicle rules already established.

It occurs to me that, with the Crusader, Detective, and Scholar effectively done, the class system is more-or-less ready for launch. The Fighter Ace and Verdant Knight aren't part of the core list at the moment and can be added later if deemed worthy.

Agreed. That'll go well with an upcoming rules revision which I need to post discussion about in the Rules and FAQ section.

[Duvors]

After noticing that the suggested changes to Opportunistic Attacks would make the Martial Artist's second trait useless for its intended purpose, I have altered it significantly.

[Waterbrick Down]

8 hours ago, Duvors said:

After noticing that the suggested changes to Opportunistic Attacks would make the Martial Artist's second trait useless for its intended purpose, I have altered it significantly.

 I like it. It still keeps the mobile feel that the original trait was aiming for.

[Waterbrick Down]

I've given a stab at the Alchemist type classes, feel free to have a read through.

Alchemist
(Explosives, Nature, Sleight of Hand, or Technology min 5)
- Proper Dosage (Trait) - ½ chance a healing consumable is not used up upon activation.
- Well Stocked Lab (Trait) - Consumables do not take up inventory slots
- Combine Reagents (Special Action) - You may use one consumable per turn

Grenadier
(Artillery, Explosives, Perception, or Sleight of Hand min 5)
- Precision Charge (Trait) - Your Grenades only deal ½ damage to allies caught in the blast radius.
- Jury Rigger (Trait) - You may craft Grenades on Missions as long as you have the credits.
- Prime the Powder (Action) - You may upgrade one of a grenade’s attributes to the next tier
 

[Duvors]

The Grenadier seems fine. The Alchemist I'm not so sure. I'm on the fence about the second trait, and the action seems more like a trait (so far all the special actions classes have are either traits or only become special actions if some condition is fulfilled).

[Waterbrick Down]

8 hours ago, Duvors said:

The Grenadier seems fine. The Alchemist I'm not so sure. I'm on the fence about the second trait, and the action seems more like a trait (so far all the special actions classes have are either traits or only become special actions if some condition is fulfilled).

Good point, I had a hard time figuring out which things to give the alchemist a few more ideas I had:

• Consumables take up half the space in inventory
• You may craft a consumable on a mission assuming you have the cost in credits
• You may use consumables on non-adjacent allies
• You may combine consumables ahead of time and use them as a single action
• You may store a spell as a consumable item and allow allies to trigger it independently of you
• You may recreate a free consumable a number of times equal to your smarts per mission
• You may cast the transmute matter spell a number of times equal to your smarts per mission
• Consumable effects are doubled
• You may use two consumables on a turn
• You may shift the damage type of an enemy's attack
• You may recreate a consumable carried by an enemy for free
• Consumables are priced at 50% less for you

[Duvors]

After reading through recent mission threads I've realized that the 'Pin' action I gave the Pugilist needed to be something anyone can do instead of a class feature. I've gone in and replaced the action accordingly. The new one allows you to stun someone, but the setup it requires is rather extensive (to the point it may have to be scaled back a little).

[Waterbrick Down]

2 hours ago, Duvors said:

After reading through recent mission threads I've realized that the 'Pin' action I gave the Pugilist needed to be something anyone can do instead of a class feature. I've gone in and replaced the action accordingly. The new one allows you to stun someone, but the setup it requires is rather extensive (to the point it may have to be scaled back a little).

Yeah the same could be said for the Protector's "Shield Bash" action, as simply shoving your opponent is a thing.

[Duvors]

On 8/25/2021 at 11:26 AM, Waterbrick Down said:

Yeah the same could be said for the Protector's "Shield Bash" action, as simply shoving your opponent is a thing.

I have replaced that with the ability to swap places with a target. I've also:

• Changed the Alchemist's action and replaced their Slieght of Hand proficiency with Medicine.
• Made the Grenadier's action only apply once per grenade to prevent abuse.

[Waterbrick Down]

1 hour ago, Duvors said:

I have replaced that with the ability to swap places with a target. I've also:

• Changed the Alchemist's action and replaced their Slieght of Hand proficiency with Medicine.
• Made the Grenadier's action only apply once per grenade to prevent abuse.

• I'm good with the Guardian's new action.
• Good call switching Sleight of Hand with Medicine. While I like the Inoculation, I feel like "Once per battle" actions/traits need to be really strong, like the Berserker's or Pugilist's. The Medic's "Triage" while restricted can at least be used on each ally at least once. Inoculation is just a little to niche in its application especially when an enemy that can inflect negative effects can simply choose to target a hero that hasn't been Inoculated there by rendering the action almost useless.
• Good restriction on the Grenadier's action, hadn't thought about that.

[Duvors]

6 minutes ago, Waterbrick Down said:

• Good call switching Sleight of Hand with Medicine. While I like the Inoculation, I feel like "Once per battle" actions/traits need to be really strong, like the Berserker's or Pugilist's. The Medic's "Triage" while restricted can at least be used on each ally at least once. Inoculation is just a little to niche in its application especially when an enemy that can inflect negative effects can simply choose to target a hero that hasn't been Inoculated there by rendering the action almost useless.

I'm fine with making it work more like Triage, but I have to ask; is Triage's restriction on how often someone can benefit from it per quest or per battle?