@Jim Thanks for the thread. Your comment got me wondering. I went and dug up some numbers for a bunch of Technic sets in recent history, in order to understand how PU is priced when in sets. Didn't need to be done but hell it's a Friday night here:

All set masses were obtained from Sariel's reviews. For the CAT, I estimated the set weight based on a ~5.8kg boxed weight I found on some random toy store, and multiplied that by the ratio of set weight to boxed weight for the Liebherr. Note that where relevant, I've removed the mass of the batteries (six AA batteries weigh approximately 200g). The effects of battery weight should obviously become less pronounced with increasing set weight.

The cost of pieces in a PU set was estimated from the approximate price per kg for sets of similar weight that don't use PU. In the case of the two older 4k flagships (BWE and Rough Terrain Crane), the weight of the PF components is assumed to be negligible when compared to the rest of the set.

From that, I estimated the cost of the PU components for each PU set by subtracting the estimated cost of pieces, allowing me to form a bunch of simultaneous equations/relations (not intended to be solved obviously) from which we can hope to estimate how TLC prices PU in sets. They are roughly grouped below according to the amount of hubs and motors. Note that “standalone” refers to the cost the PU components when bought directly from Lego:

42109:    1H + 2M ~ 75€ (~150€ standalone)
42124:    1H + 2M ~ 90€ (~150€ standalone)

42099:    1H + 3M ~ 102€ (~185€ standalone)
42114:    1H + 3M ~ 30€ (~185€ standalone)

42129:    1H + 3.5M ~ 140€ (~200€ standalone)
42131:    1H + 4M ~ 191€ (~220€ standalone)

42100:    2H + 7M ~ 171€ (~400€ standalone)

There's unfortunately not much data to work with here, but the regular cost of PU in sets would appear to hover around half of the equivalent standalone RRP. It's quite noisy data, however.

I think what's happened is a pre-emptive markup on RRP of ~20% on the PU sets because of the pandemic - I've heard that prices elsewhere (at least here in Australia) have also gone up by ~20%. When I reduce the prices of the Zetros and CAT to something more reasonable at 250€ and 360€, the price of the PU electronics drop down to 90€ and 100€, which are also near half of the cost of buying standalone PU.

TL;DR - It's incorrect to say that the Liebherr was cheap, as the estimated PU cost was on par with other sets. Both the CAT and Zetros' electronics simply cost too much, but the case is especially obvious with the CAT.

EDIT: Sariel's 42131 video is out! Turns out my weight estimate was quite close!

Edited September 10, 20213 yr by Bartybum

@Gimmick To understand "Held der Steine" you must see the whole picture. I don't like everything he is doing, but I can see where he is coming from.

For years he was the biggest german LEGO YT channel and made basically free advertising for TLG, and he got lots of older people interested in LEGO again with his enthusiasm and humour. He sold only LEGO in his little shop in Frankfurt.

Then TLG sent their lawyers after him because he had a brick in his logo, with no warning, no nothing. Way to take a dump on a real supporter. He changed his LEGO to avoid a lawsuit with TLG.

The "Held der Steine" had been disappointed by newer LEGO products for a while, but that ungreatful move from TLG was what ultimately turned him to the dark side. He started selling competitor brands like COBI in his little shop too, and the yt channel kept growing, he kind of grew to be the hood ornament of the competitor brands in Germany.

TLG made their worst enemy themselves by being disrespectful and ungreatful in this and a few other occasions, and the "Held der Steine" now takes every chance he gets to embarass and and get back at TLG.

The calling a Competitor set "LEGO" was an obvious provocation, and put TLG in a kind of pinch. They could either do nothing and let him carry on which would risk to damage their brand, or send their overpaid lawyers again and cause a shitstorm that would also damage their brand... You see where this is going 

That was the tale of the Held der Steine, and his rise to power...  I'll shut up now 

@Bartybum Nicely done!

PU has ongoing software development costs to recover that PF didn't have. Somebody has to pay for that. 

 

27 minutes ago, Gray Gear said:

For years he was the biggest german LEGO YT channel and made basically free advertising for TLG, and he got lots of older people interested in LEGO again with his enthusiasm and humour. He sold only LEGO in his little shop in Frankfurt.

When did he pass klemmbausteinlyrik? In 2018?

27 minutes ago, Gray Gear said:

Then TLG sent their lawyers after him because he had a brick in his logo, with no warning, no nothing. Way to take a dump on a real supporter. He changed his LEGO to avoid a lawsuit with TLG.

He wanted to register the logo so that no one else can use it. LEGO only wrote the letter because he wanted to register it. Nothing would have happened if he simply used the logo as is. But of course, that's something he doesn't emphasize. He's really good at not emphasizing some details and emphasizing others.

27 minutes ago, Gray Gear said:

The "Held der Steine" had been disappointed by newer LEGO products for a while, but that ungreatful move from TLG was what ultimately turned him to the dark side. He started selling competitor brands like COBI in his little shop too, and the yt channel kept growing, he kind of grew to be the hood ornament of the competitor brands in Germany.

It mostly grows when there is a scandal. He wins many subscribers with the "scandals": https://socialblade.com/youtube/user/helddersteine (look at the bumps in the subscribers graph. Jan 2019 with the letter (which was no lawsuit I think... but he was very unprecise about the actual term) and Jan 2021.

But I'm not sure about his actual influence on lego's sales. These days many people from his community seem to be people that wouldn't buy lego anyways.

Edited September 10, 20213 yr by Tcm0

@Tcm0 I agree with the scandals thing. I don't watch his vids anymore because of it.

Never heared about that "registering the logo" thing, bit I am far from allknowing. Got the source at hand?

You are right, his influence on LEGO sales is probably pretty small, but he first introduced lots of competitor brands to a big german audience, and laid the foundation on which they grew and can keep growing.

On the long run that will hurt TLG most I think. Or help TLG I hope. A healthy competiton is good for the Market. Innovation and pricefights are good for us consumers.

Edited September 10, 20213 yr by Gray Gear

3 hours ago, Tcm0 said:

I bought 2 cada pro power system sets just recently. It's nice that they use their own shapes but it still has many issues. The servo has just 3 proper positions and the lights are way darker. The extension wire is missing the 9V adapter option. I haven't tested the other motors enough so far to give an objective opinion about them.
What do you mean by the limitations?

For me only the early power functions plug had a problem so far. They don't have a knobble that was added later. But the lego servo is one of the very few if not the only one that has more than 3 positions. Even that can't be copied properly by the chinese.
We don't have the chinese motors long enough so we don't know if they are good in the long run.

I think the 2 rechargeable battery boxed I heard of that smoked were by mould king and cada. The plug that melted was bluebrixx.

Sure. But there is guaranteed support for lego products. I'm not sure how long you'd get replacements on aliexpress etc. But yeah. Lego isn't perfect either.

Isn't the discussion of chinese and pf vs powered up also about the price in the end? ;)

CADa pro series servos (and even the basic one ifI recall correctly) have proportional control (there's an encoder inside, similar to the LEGO one, I've posted a link to a chinese motor comparison made by BrickElectronic sometime ago) -  the problem is, it's not compatible with PF receivers, but BuWizz and Sbrick do work (mine doesn't, but it's because my BuWizz is 1st gen and already faulty - pretty sure I fried something inside as it struggles to work the same way it did before, that or the app is buggy, since the new one doesn't even work properly with my unit). The 9V adapter wouldn't make sense whatsoever - it's not something they or anyone else uses. Even the buggy motors copies for better or worse use a fixed wire, and most 9V elements have direct substitutes. Broken 9V wires are quite cheap too, and can be easily spliced with a PF plug&wire to make a converter if it's a necessity. For the lights - depends on the revision of PF light - I have some older ones that have a yellowish tint, the newer ones have a more neutral colour, and CADa ones are extremely cold, which might be giving the effect of them being less bright (might be wrong, but that's the feel I had when choosing LEDs for headlights)

PU limitations - no physical remote support, non-stackable connector, no fixed voltage output to use with switches, some stuff is not interchangeable in spite of using the same damned connector (apparently Mindstorms/Spike stuff can't be used with Technic/city hubs????), the Mindstorms hubs can't store the programs (besides 3rd party OS flash I think?), no backwards compatibility, the wires have a fixed length and there's NO way to extend them... Of course a major PF limitation was the antiquated IR control, but that was solved almost a decade ago. For sensors - WeDo had some with PF plugs, and Sbrick+ supported them, although I've seen only 3 Technic MOCs ever using it... 

CADa also offers a customer service - even if the customer bought it from some shady 3rd party reseller and was missing the electronics (works pretty much the same way as TLG, shoot them an email et voila). However it is also true that Lego's customer service is quite extreme - I doubt any company would send a replacement without much proof of it being broken, and even existing in the first place. Getting replacements/making claims for other, un-branded, products might have some issues, although I only had a good experiences so far, since I used dependable sellers on Ali, and the import online shops seem to have some sort of CS too (don't hold me on that though). 

I had thought we were discussing lego set pricing not reiterating the PF vs C+ war from various other topics  It is true that it could still fit within price discussion - I mean, Bruno's full-RC supercar has the same price as the Flexari from TLG, and I bought it with a discount for the same price as the "Top Gear car". And it has 3k pieces... 

----------------

Back on the topic of pricing: 

Thanks for the analysis Bartybum, hopefully the ~20% markup theory is true. At least that confirms that the sets are actually more expensive.

52 minutes ago, dr_spock said:

PU has ongoing software development costs to recover that PF didn't have. Somebody has to pay for that. 

They better start working then, the steering bug has been reported various times over the years (even I know about it already), their released communications protocol is so outdated, the 3rd party apps have dropped support and not all PU elements are compatible with each other.
But yeah, someone gotta pay for that "feature" of seeing a 3D model of their 300€ Merc on their phone 

Edited September 10, 20213 yr by syclone

2 hours ago, Bartybum said:

@Jim Thanks for the thread. Your comment got me wondering. I went and dug up some numbers for a bunch of Technic sets in recent history, in order to understand how PU is priced when in sets. Didn't need to be done but hell it's a Friday night here:

 

TL;DR - It's incorrect to say that the Liebherr was cheap, as the estimated PU cost was on par with other sets. Both the CAT and Zetros' electronics simply cost too much, but the case is especially obvious with the CAT.

EDIT: Sariel's 42131 video is out! Turns out my weight estimate was quite close!

All RC sets (PF+PU) ordered by partcount (blue). Thin blue: linear fit. Red: Set price difference to the fit.

1 hour ago, Gray Gear said:

@Gimmick To understand "Held der Steine" you must see the whole picture. I don't like everything he is doing, but I can see where he is coming from.

 

@Bartybum Nicely done!

Tbh: I do not like his first videos either, those review are the same way as his current videos: one sided, over emotional and full of implications - just like a good sells man has to do it. ;)

I did not care about that, because it did not affect me. Now it does. Sometimes it's almost unavoidable to get insulted - directly or indirectly -  if you use social media. I know what he does and why he does it. I'm just pretty sure not everything he sais is correct and that he indeed knows better - but the viewers do not.

Edited September 10, 20213 yr by Gimmick

1 hour ago, syclone said:

CADa pro series servos (and even the basic one ifI recall correctly) have proportional control (there's an encoder inside, similar to the LEGO one, I've posted a link to a chinese motor comparison made by BrickElectronic sometime ago) -  the problem is, it's not compatible with PF receivers, but BuWizz and Sbrick do work (mine doesn't, but it's because my BuWizz is 1st gen and already faulty - pretty sure I fried something inside as it struggles to work the same way it did before, that or the app is buggy, since the new one doesn't even work properly with my unit).

I tried it with an sbrick and it didn't work. That makes 2 unsuccessful tests and one document that states that it should work. I think that the document is incorrect. It might be easier to say who's fault it was if we had official documentation tho. Why can't cada say somewhere how many positions the motor has?

1 hour ago, syclone said:

The 9V adapter wouldn't make sense whatsoever - it's not something they or anyone else uses.

It doesn't do any harm and it would be nice to have. I wouldn't say that it wouldn't make sense. Also, it's important to avoid problems. With the cada cable you can connect 2 battery boxes directly together.

1 hour ago, syclone said:

For the lights - depends on the revision of PF light - I have some older ones that have a yellowish tint, the newer ones have a more neutral colour, and CADa ones are extremely cold, which might be giving the effect of them being less bright (might be wrong, but that's the feel I had when choosing LEDs for headlights)

I bought 2 sets and the leds are pretty dark (but they don't take much current, so at least they don't waste that energy).

1 hour ago, syclone said:

PU limitations - no physical remote support, non-stackable connector, no fixed voltage output to use with switches, some stuff is not interchangeable in spite of using the same damned connector (apparently Mindstorms/Spike stuff can't be used with Technic/city hubs????), the Mindstorms hubs can't store the programs (besides 3rd party OS flash I think?), no backwards compatibility, the wires have a fixed length and there's NO way to extend them... Of course a major PF limitation was the antiquated IR control, but that was solved almost a decade ago. For sensors - WeDo had some with PF plugs, and Sbrick+ supported them, although I've seen only 3 Technic MOCs ever using it... 

You can use physical remotes now with pybricks. The lego powered up remote. There are premade configurations for almost all of the sets: https://github.com/Tcm0/PybricksRemoteLayouts
The power functions switch used C1 and C2 I think. The constant 9V was only necessary for IR receiver and servo. PUP has fixed voltage supply for sensors.
Yeah. Lego really must 1up their compatibility game. The hardware is compatible, pybricks is compatible but the powered up app lacks blocks for the mindstorms sensors etc.
The mindstorms hub can store 19 or 20 programs with the original OS. And you can't store programs on anything by another manufacturer (KAZI EV5 beeing a large exception).
There is backwards compatibility. There is a sensor to send PF IR commands.
Yeah, fixed wire length and no official solution is a huge problem.
Where was the PF IR control solved a decade ago with physical remote support?

1 hour ago, syclone said:

They better start working then, the steering bug has been reported various times over the years (even I know about it already), their released communications protocol is so outdated, the 3rd party apps have dropped support and not all PU elements are compatible with each other.
But yeah, someone gotta pay for that "feature" of seeing a 3D model of their 300€ Merc on their phone 

Is the steering bug such a problem? I can't remember that I encountered it.
Which 3rd party apps have dropped support? Buwizz? Brickcontroller2 and sbrick support PUP I think. Pybricks does so as well but it's not an app.
The elements are compatible (except for wedo 2.0 hub which is discontinued). The software is the big problem.

The feature of seeing a 3D model on the screen might actually be necessary since people seem to not know which technical aspects the set contains. Some reviewers don't mention the transmission in the volvo etc. One example of them beeing the reviewer already mentioned.
But that could have impacts on the perception of the prices as well. Would you say that the control+ hardware is too expensive if you see it as a "mini mindstorms"? Because that's what it is with the powered up app or with pybricks.

Edited September 10, 20213 yr by Tcm0

45 minutes ago, Tcm0 said:

I tried it with an sbrick and it didn't work. That makes 2 unsuccessful tests and one document that states that it should work. I think that the document is incorrect.

Ask Brunojj1 - he tested with BuWizz and said it works. The servos are definitely proportional - the pdf has photos of the dissasembled motors and it has an encoder similar to the LEGO one.

I don't understand your point of 9V cables - CADa isn't a supplier of cheap copy parts - they're making their own stuff, and 9V never was a product they made. Perhaps it can be dangerous having two PF ports connect to each other, but it seems no one's that dumb.

I'm aware of using the remote - but if you paid close attention, the lag is unbearable.

Quote

Where was the PF IR control solved a decade ago with physical remote support?

I'm pretty sure you yourself own a Sbrick... that can be used with a gamepad... 
In any case I was referring to the fact that IR was no longer used, in favour of Bluetooth.

As far as "elements are compatible" - yes, they have the same plug, but they don't work together. It's like saying thay your PC works even though you haven't installed an OS. Sure, the processor, GPU, PSU, RAM and HDD are installed and they fit together - but they don't work. 

Steering bug has en been brought up several times in different topics - basically it glitches and goes into an extreme position until you reset the hub.

Quote

Would you say that the control+ hardware is too expensive if you see it as a "mini mindstorms"

I never asked for a mini mindstorms (in fact, I've sold my NXT 2.0 because it was useless for me). I need plug&play, no fancy sensors and programming. It's Technic, not Mindstorms I'm buying. PF was simple and accessible, no fancy apps. Hence why I brought the issue with Sbrick+ and WeDo sensors - an extremely low amount of people used it.

For all I know not everything is supported via 3rd party apps. Pretty sure the hubs weren't connectable?? Idk, nor do I care really.

--------------------

We can go on and on and on about PF vs C+ endlessly m8, but as long as it is an expensive, barely working (via official apps/whatever it is) system with unnecessary features, I won't budge. Don't get me wrong, I don't particularly like the way BuWizz and CADa receivers work either - one needs a phone, the other has a remote, but only on/off controls.

Ideal situation is to use a proper RC remote and be done with it - like the russian RCbrick does. But that one isn't without faults either - it's built using individually sold parts, and is quite bulky and pricey for what it is.

-------------------------

I think this topic is about pricing anyways. ¬_¬

Edited September 10, 20213 yr by syclone

40 minutes ago, syclone said:

Ask Brunojj1 - he tested with BuWizz and said it works. The servos are definitely proportional - the pdf has photos of the dissasembled motors and it has an encoder similar to the LEGO one.

I've heard that CADA has another servo that looks the same where the servo functionality should work that's not included in the pro power system but idk. Also, it has steps with the PF rechargeable battery box. They just don't make sense (they are backwards in one direction and the other direction doesn't have steps). The PDF states that it works with Buwizz and sbrick. I tried sbrick, you tried buwizz, it didn't work. Something must be wrong there.

43 minutes ago, syclone said:

I don't understand your point of 9V cables - CADa isn't a supplier of cheap copy parts - they're making their own stuff, and 9V never was a product they made. Perhaps it can be dangerous having two PF ports connect to each other, but it seems no one's that dumb.

The pro power system is 8+. I was "dumb" (I'd say curious) enough. A friend of mine even used an empty pf battery box to supply the 9V lines with power if he used the adapter cable as power source.

45 minutes ago, syclone said:

I'm pretty sure you yourself own a Sbrick... that can be used with a gamepad... 
In any case I was referring to the fact that IR was no longer used, in favour of Bluetooth.

It couldn't be used with a gamepad back then. Heck, the app was so buggy it was barely usable. The sbrick came a long way - and most of the way was with a smartphone as a remote. It still needs a smartphone inbetween which control+ doesn't need with pybricks. And there are still similar issues with sbrick? What happened to the new sbrick and wireless sensors and motors they announced a while ago?

47 minutes ago, syclone said:

As far as "elements are compatible" - yes, they have the same plug, but they don't work together. It's like saying thay your PC works even though you haven't installed an OS. Sure, the processor, GPU, PSU, RAM and HDD are installed and they fit together - but they don't work. 

They work with pybricks and other 3rd party projects. You can compare it to them not working with windows but with linux. Tho installing linux needs more time than installing windows. Also, support will be added. So it's only a matter of time. But again, that's a huge problem with the powered up system and I agree on that. LEGO should really fix their compatibility. It's just a huge mess.

51 minutes ago, syclone said:

I never asked for a mini mindstorms (in fact, I've sold my NXT 2.0 because it was useless for me). I need plug&play, no fancy sensors and programming. It's Technic, not Mindstorms I'm buying. PF was simple and accessible, no fancy apps. Hence why I brought the issue with Sbrick+ and WeDo sensors - an extremely low amount of people used it.

A serious question: is PF really that easy or is it just that you're used to it? PF has it's oddities as well. Which plug of the receiver belongs to the battery box, where to connect the motors, how can you select a channel, what's the back switch on the remote for etc. There you also have to switch the black switch from time to time which isn't exactly "plug&play". Some people had problems with it.
WeDo is in the education subtheme. Not many people know about that. Also, the sensor choice was very limited. Many Control+ mocs use the rotation sensors of the motors and they have many advantages over the power functions servos. They have more angles (almost analog), they aren't limited to 90° and they can be used for something else.

58 minutes ago, syclone said:

We can go on and on and on about PF vs C+ endlessly m8, but as long as it is an expensive, barely working (via official apps/whatever it is) system with unnecessary features, I won't budge. Don't get me wrong, I don't particularly like the way BuWizz and CADa receivers work either - one needs a phone, the other has a remote, but only on/off controls.

Ideal situation is to use a proper RC remote and be done with it - like the russian RCbrick does. But that one isn't without faults either - it's built using individually sold parts, and is quite bulky and pricey for what it is.

-------------------------

I think this topic is about pricing anyways. ¬_¬

It's working good. It just doesn't support the newest elements yet.
Yes, we could go on. But on the other side that's why this was split from the original post. And Control+ is a huge factor of the price. I think that it's natural that you have to compare it to PF if you want to get a feeling for what's too expensive and what's not.

We can say this is not priced right  or anything we like, Lego is the manufacturer and they can sell at any price they wish. They actually make the sets to a price point, so many sets in x bracket, so many in y bracket per year. The Liebherr and the Cat are in the highest bracket. 

It is our choice whether we buy a set or not, arguing about how it is priced will get us nowhere. 

14 hours ago, dr_spock said:

PU has ongoing software development costs to recover that PF didn't have. Somebody has to pay for that. 

 

That makes me think if TLG had just slapped the good ole PF on all the C+ sets a decent amount in the cost might have been cut.

Edited September 11, 20213 yr by Ngoc Nguyen

1 hour ago, Ngoc Nguyen said:

That makes me think if TLG had just slapped the good ole PF on all the C+ sets a decent amount in the cost might have been cut.

I actually don't think that the PUP app development costs are that huge of a deal. RacingBrick made some interviews and I think there it was stated that the team for the PUP app is pretty small. That's probably why it's moving so slow.

35 minutes ago, Tcm0 said:

I actually don't think that the PUP app development costs are that huge of a deal. RacingBrick made some interviews and I think there it was stated that the team for the PUP app is pretty small. That's probably why it's moving so slow.

It's definitely something TLG should invest in more. A lot of the current issues and shortcomings of the PU system could be resolved with just additional/better software, I don't think there's any major issues with the hardware other than the lack of a proper remote handset and maybe the lack of extension cables. (I mean, of course it would be nice to have more powerful motors and PF-like lights along with splitter cables and all that stuff, but I consider those minor tweaks rather than significant shortcomings.)

And we really need a set with the dumb battery box, as it's absurdly expensive when bought separately. (No, 42113 doesn't count.)

If TLG sold a C+ Remote for like 60€ I am sure people would still buy it if it actually worked...

8 minutes ago, Gray Gear said:

If TLG sold a C+ Remote for like 60€ I am sure people would still buy it if it actually worked...

Well, they won't. Screen time is too valuable.

Let's also not forget that the CAT is an 18+ set which I think it really means it's 18% more expensive, considering some of the prices for such labelled sets.

1 minute ago, XenoRad said:

Let's also not forget that the CAT is an 18+ set which I think it really means it's 18% more expensive, considering some of the prices for such labelled sets.

Adult rating, adult prices. Doesn't mean an adult set.

27 minutes ago, Gray Gear said:

If TLG sold a C+ Remote for like 60€ I am sure people would still buy it if it actually worked...

While I doubt that there will be a second type of remote, the feature to write own commands to the hub and use it with a (or multiple I guess) remote and without smartdevice will come. But definitely not this year.

3 hours ago, howitzer said:

It's definitely something TLG should invest in more. A lot of the current issues and shortcomings of the PU system could be resolved with just additional/better software

I wonder why they can't keep up with the hardware that's coming out. That must be one of the main priorities for a "complete system" and 3rd party apps are very quick in adding it.

3 hours ago, howitzer said:

PF-like lights

There are PF-like lights: 88005

2 hours ago, Maaboo35 said:

Well, they won't. Screen time is too valuable.

I don't think that's the reason... Pretty sure the whole point of PU is to allow for complex control that would otherwise be too difficult to implement with physical controllers, namely with extra functions that require calibration.

Just now, Bartybum said:

I don't think that's the reason... Pretty sure the whole point of PU is to allow for complex control that would otherwise be too difficult to implement with physical controllers, namely with extra functions that require calibration.

Then why do most of the sets only drive and steer?

11 minutes ago, Maaboo35 said:

Then why do most of the sets only drive and steer?

But they don't - of the seven PU sets we've had, only three are limited to driving and steering. The majority are large sets with complex functions that extend beyond driving and steering.

Edited September 11, 20213 yr by Bartybum

5 minutes ago, Bartybum said:

But they don't - of the seven PU sets we've had, only three are limited to driving and steering.

Four, actually, with the Zetros. The diff lock doesn't really count since it only modifies the driving performance rather than being a distinct function in and of itself. The A60H doesn't do much beyond driving either - only the dump bed raises it above that level, and don't even get me started on that useless gearbox, or the even more useless steering.

Edited September 11, 20213 yr by Maaboo35

So nearly every Technic set in the past 5 years in the UK has dropped within 6 months of launch to 1/3rd off.  The powers of Amazon, Smyths Toys (and Argos in the past) I think have pushed for the ability to discount the sets to boost sales.  It's no different than the food environment, you see in the supermarket, where 1 week a pipe of pringles costs £3 and for the next 6 months they are half price at £1.50.

It's like Lego truely see the RRP as being £300 for the CAT and for the first few months, if they can find people who are willing to part with £450, they will happily take it.  It's only in recent years they have been giving sets to influencers to promote on AFOL sites and YouTube, so you have to wonder if the promo sets now being issued is to help push the early sales when the price is sky high.

As a long term Technic collector, I also have the problem that I look at the size of the box, and I relate that to what I used to pay 10 - 20 years ago, but I apprecaite you now have to look at the electronic costs as well.

Anyway, I'm in the happy to wait after a set is launched, and within 6 months snap it up at a reasonable price.