Do you only buy lego?

[El Garfio]

I'm a hotwheels fan due to it, I have several sets of mega 

And when the Spanish brand tecnitoys released construblock under the hand of a designer of a construction blocks toy called tente, I also acquired most of the sets 

Edited November 10, 2023 by El Garfio

[SpacePolice89]

11 hours ago, Yperio_Bricks said:

Just saw this today. To be clear, i also only buy Lego sets, bricks, pieces and minifigs because my brain likes it this way. With that being said, do you think Lego had the right to steal Kiddicraft's works? Why does the 2x4 Lego brick match British standard stone bricks at 1:7 scale? Oh, and Kiddicraft had bricks of a bigger size too, for smaller children. The size that DUPLO uses today... The life of Hilary Page, founder of Kiddicraft was plagued by business and financial struggles and he committed suicide while Lego went on to become the biggest toy company in the world.

"A Briton, Hilary Fisher Page, and his company Kiddicraft has invented the plastic bricks that Ole Kirk and his son Godtfred are presented with. In the late 1950s, the LEGO Group contacts Kiddicraft to ask whether they object to the LEGO® brick. They do not. On the contrary, they wish the company good luck with the bricks, as they have not enjoyed much success with their product. In 1981, the LEGO Group purchases the rights to the Kiddicraft bricks and trademark from the descendants of Hilary Fisher Page."

https://www.lego.com/en-gb/history/articles/c-automatic-binding-bricks/

That is from Lego themselves so I don't see any problem with them manufacturing the bricks back then. Firstly they had permission to do so and secondly they didn't ride on someone else's coattails like parasitic companies such as Zuru Max or Lepin does.

[Yperio_Bricks]

1 hour ago, SpacePolice89 said:

"A Briton, Hilary Fisher Page, and his company Kiddicraft has invented the plastic bricks that Ole Kirk and his son Godtfred are presented with. In the late 1950s, the LEGO Group contacts Kiddicraft to ask whether they object to the LEGO® brick. They do not. On the contrary, they wish the company good luck with the bricks, as they have not enjoyed much success with their product. In 1981, the LEGO Group purchases the rights to the Kiddicraft bricks and trademark from the descendants of Hilary Fisher Page."

https://www.lego.com/en-gb/history/articles/c-automatic-binding-bricks/

That is from Lego themselves so I don't see any problem with them manufacturing the bricks back then. Firstly they had permission to do so and secondly they didn't ride on someone else's coattails like parasitic companies such as Zuru Max or Lepin does.

Of course they are framing it like that. When Lego bought machinery in 1947 in the UK they were 'presented' Kiddicraft molds and information and only god knows what they took with them back to Denmark. And 'the late 50s' probably means after 1957 and the death of Hilary Page. The same standars that you apply to Lego you should apply to any other company and then it is completely legal that bricks and pieces, whose patents are expired, are manufactured by other companies, like in any other business. Of course stealing set and moc designs is not legal. But as i have said, i buy only Lego anyway because my brain likes it this way. Mixing parts would be a nightmare and i could not unsee the 'other bicks'  I love Lego bricks and pieces but i am not a fan of the company.

[SpacePolice89]

7 hours ago, Yperio_Bricks said:

Of course they are framing it like that. When Lego bought machinery in 1947 in the UK they were 'presented' Kiddicraft molds and information and only god knows what they took with them back to Denmark. And 'the late 50s' probably means after 1957 and the death of Hilary Page. The same standars that you apply to Lego you should apply to any other company and then it is completely legal that bricks and pieces, whose patents are expired, are manufactured by other companies, like in any other business. Of course stealing set and moc designs is not legal. But as i have said, i buy only Lego anyway because my brain likes it this way. Mixing parts would be a nightmare and i could not unsee the 'other bicks'  I love Lego bricks and pieces but i am not a fan of the company.

I doubt that they would have gotten permission from Kiddicraft if they had acquired the design illegally. I disagree many times with the decisions of the Lego Group but in general they are a good company and one of the best employers because they treat their staff very good. They are also one of the few toy companies that have manufacturing in Europe, almost all pieces sold in Europe are made in Denmark or Hungary and the printing and packing is done in the Czech Republic. Recently they have donated lots of money to Ukraine and they regularly participate in charity stuff so I hold them in the highest regard. I've spent many childhood summers in Denmark and also visited many times since then so I've seen the positive impact Lego has on the Billund area.  

[Yperio_Bricks]

36 minutes ago, SpacePolice89 said:

I doubt that they would have gotten permission from Kiddicraft if they had acquired the design illegally. I disagree many times with the decisions of the Lego Group but in general they are a good company and one of the best employers because they treat their staff very good. They are also one of the few toy companies that have manufacturing in Europe, almost all pieces sold in Europe are made in Denmark or Hungary and the printing and packing is done in the Czech Republic. Recently they have donated lots of money to Ukraine and they regularly participate in charity stuff so I hold them in the highest regard. I've spent many childhood summers in Denmark and also visited many times since then so I've seen the positive impact Lego has on the Billund area.  

The Kiddicraft patents were only applicable in the UK. For example is the same as if Lego patents are only applicable in the EU but not in China! Do you see the pattern? I am just speaking out against double standards.

[Alexandrina]

7 minutes ago, Yperio_Bricks said:

The Kiddicraft patents were only applicable in the UK. For example is the same as if Lego patents are only applicable in the EU but not in China! Do you see the pattern? I am just speaking out against double standards.

However, there's a difference between "company that also makes building blocks" and "company that sells other people's designs, uncompensated". To my mind, companies that make their own designs are legitimate. Companies that scrape designs off the Internet are illegitimate.

Not that I'd ever buy non-Lego bricks personally, you can always tell the difference and the off-brand stuff always comes off inferior.

[Yperio_Bricks]

Just now, Alexandrina said:

However, there's a difference between "company that also makes building blocks" and "company that sells other people's designs, uncompensated". To my mind, companies that make their own designs are legitimate. Companies that scrape designs off the Internet are illegitimate.

Yes, of course! I agree with you. I even wrote that earlier! I was only talking about the bricks and how Lego got into making them.

[Alexandrina]

1 minute ago, Yperio_Bricks said:

Yes, of course! I agree with you. I even wrote that earlier! I was only talking about the bricks and how Lego got into making them.

Yeah, that's totally fair enough.

On the Kiddicraft subject, I did a bit of Wiki editing this afternoon - the page on the founder was written in a very adversarial manner (basically, "here's all the ways he got shafted. By the way, Lego tell a different story") which is inappropriate for an encyclopedia imo - but when I dug deeper, half the stuff was either not sourced at all or wasn't mentioned in the source. At this remove we'll never know 100% for sure what went down between the two, but I don't think making stuff up helps either side of the matter.

[Toastie]

5 hours ago, SpacePolice89 said:

I doubt that they would have gotten permission from Kiddicraft if they had acquired the design illegally.

Maybe, maybe not, who knows. The entire industrial revolution was one big no permission copy frenzy.

After 30 years, patents are becoming volatile, provided you can't push things further. So legally, every molded piece of ABS falling into the "clippable blocks" category being compatible with whoever has patented that very design more than 30 years ago, is up to the free market. And that's it. At least one absolutely minor advantage of the free market. 30 years ... if you didn't make it then, you'll make it anytime - no wait, that was about location and not time

Copying MOCs, stealing set designs, etc. etc. is not tolerable, at least for me.

Do I buy other than TLG bricks and sets? For sure! It's a >toy< world, not a deeper insight into how the universe was made and works.

All the best,
Thorsten

   

Edited November 11, 2023 by Toastie

[SpacePolice89]

11 hours ago, Toastie said:

Maybe, maybe not, who knows. The entire industrial revolution was one big no permission copy frenzy.

After 30 years, patents are becoming volatile, provided you can't push things further. So legally, every molded piece of ABS falling into the "clippable blocks" category being compatible with whoever has patented that very design more than 30 years ago, is up to the free market. And that's it. At least one absolutely minor advantage of the free market. 30 years ... if you didn't make it then, you'll make it anytime - no wait, that was about location and not time

Copying MOCs, stealing set designs, etc. etc. is not tolerable, at least for me.

Do I buy other than TLG bricks and sets? For sure! It's a >toy< world, not a deeper insight into how the universe was made and works.

All the best,
Thorsten

   

I think it's ridiculous that others can use exactly the same pieces after such a short time. Movies and art are protected much longer and so should products like Lego also be in my opinion. I have no problem with others manufacturing interlocking building bricks and pieces but when they use the same dimensions and even make exact copies of pieces they cross a red line.

[Black Falcon]

4 minutes ago, SpacePolice89 said:

I think it's ridiculous that others can use exactly the same pieces after such a short time. Movies and art are protected much longer and so should products like Lego also be in my opinion. I have no problem with others manufacturing interlocking building bricks and pieces but when they use the same dimensions and even make exact copies of pieces they cross a red line.

Well for normal system bricks I don´t see an issue, they have just to look that way. But I agree on special bricks, like plant parts, special bricks (like wall bricks), minifig accessoirs or animal moulds. They could just make their own thing.

[Yperio_Bricks]

40 minutes ago, SpacePolice89 said:

[...] but when they use the same dimensions [...]

Then again, why did Lego use the same sizes as Kiddicraft?

40 minutes ago, SpacePolice89 said:

I think it's ridiculous that others can use exactly the same pieces after such a short time.

When you are ill and need to get a generic drug, that was produced after the patent expired, you decline it?

 

And here is a paper about brand love and the consequences. Go from there by researching the key words and sources: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057/s41262-021-00237-7

 

 

Edited November 12, 2023 by Yperio_Bricks
typo

[TeriXeri]

1 hour ago, Yperio_Bricks said:

Then again, why did Lego use the same sizes as Kiddicraft?

I think it's more interesting to see how many current, and even new upcoming legal competitors use the same size as well, and are they truly compatible?

Unless there is some minor millimeter difference the eye cannot see (even LEGO considers the tiny height of the LEGO logo on stud an illegal building technique in cases where a hollow stud without logo would not be)

Edited November 12, 2023 by TeriXeri

[Toastie]

5 hours ago, SpacePolice89 said:

I think it's ridiculous that others can use exactly the same pieces after such a short time.

It appears as if it is even shorter (15 - 20 years) - provided you don't do any substantial improvements to the design, and successfully renew the patent. Which is - for a (on the micron scale defined) LEGO brick made from ABS polymer - quite the challenge

Well, we all love the free market, don't we? Many things are affordable these days, simply because there is competition. And competition usually leads to quality/design improvements, market challenges, etc. etc. And in the world of capitalism, surely also to cannibalism, that's automatically built in there. Just imagine, this "free" market would not exist and every piece you can think of is patented - to the end of time. That would lead to crazy times!

If there were no competition - because their patents retire one after another, TLG would charge super-insane prices, would not put prints on one single piece, as stickers are so much cheaper, and so on and so forth. Now that they feel (heavily) the competition on the free market, they do improve, I believe to detect that here and there. But what do I know. Price-wise, they are still in money making heaven (look at their annual >profit< they make for decades) - but, well, they are apparently the market leader and produce the best quality bricks in the world. Not sure if kids need the best quality bricks in the world, but maybe adults. And this is what they are after, aren't they, the adults? So many black boxes on the shelves with display only models. But so be it, I don't have to buy them, because there are alternatives.

When your patent is that strong, then 15 - 20 years of raking in money is enough, the Gods of Patents say. You also had the same time to do something else.

The free market ... oh well.

Best regards,
Thorsten     

Edited November 12, 2023 by Toastie

[Black Falcon]

4 minutes ago, Toastie said:

Well, we all love the free market, don't we? Many things are affordable these days, simply because there is competition. And competition usually leads to quality/design improvements, market challenges, etc. etc. And in the world of capitalism, surely also to cannibalism, that's automatically built in there. Just imagine, this "free" market would not exist and every piece you can think of is patented - to the end of time. That would lead to crazy times!

I don´t really see quality and design improvements from the free market honestly, on the contrary I see cheap stuff for cheap prices coming from china. 

4 minutes ago, Toastie said:

If there were no competition - because their patents retire one after another, TLG would charge super-insane prices, would not put prints on one single piece, as stickers are so much cheaper, and so on and so forth. Now that they feel (heavily) the competition on the free market, they do improve, I believe to detect that here and there. But what do I know. Price-wise, they are still in money making heaven (look at their annual >profit< they make for decades) - but, well, they are apparently the market leader and produce the best quality bricks in the world. Not sure if kids need the best quality bricks in the world, but maybe adults. And this is what they are after, aren't they, the adults? So many black boxes on the shelves with display only models. But so be it, I don't have to buy them, because there are alternatives.

I actually don´t think that Lego´s prices would be that different if there would be less competition. If you see the price difference between them and some chinese bricks, they are already way above them. But eitherway there is always a price people would be willing and able to pay and that one, I think, is more the mark where Lego can go with their prices, than what competitors do.

[Yperio_Bricks]

3 minutes ago, Black Falcon said:

[...] design improvements [...]

Oh really? I see so many history themed minifigs that i wish Lego would make them! I also see many castles, ships, pirate islands, trains, stations, buildings, etc. i wish Lego would make. I can only hope the competitors get bigger and Lego shrinks so they get they message.

[Alexandrina]

21 minutes ago, Yperio_Bricks said:

Oh really? I see so many history themed minifigs that i wish Lego would make them! I also see many castles, ships, pirate islands, trains, stations, buildings, etc. i wish Lego would make. I can only hope the competitors get bigger and Lego shrinks so they get they message.

I get the impression "design improvements" here was in reference to the bricks themselves, not the sets. In which case, there's a clear difference between Lego bricks and competitor bricks. For this reason I 100% hope Lego doesn't shrink - the quality of their bricks is unmatched, and I'd absolutely rather see them prosper than some company with inferior bricks but "better" sets (does such a thing exist?) take them down. After all, my sets get built once then folded into the wider collection for MOCing.

[Black Falcon]

2 hours ago, Yperio_Bricks said:

Oh really? I see so many history themed minifigs that i wish Lego would make them! I also see many castles, ships, pirate islands, trains, stations, buildings, etc. i wish Lego would make. I can only hope the competitors get bigger and Lego shrinks so they get they message.

You´re taking your personal interest as something Lego has to do here. They are already bringing older sets back, but that only works with a certain amount of sets. With to many sets at once, the buyers would split among them based on what they like most. The more sets, the less buyers you will have per set, resulting with them not doing well. In the end that would lead to the opposite of what you want.

[Yperio_Bricks]

6 minutes ago, Black Falcon said:

You´re taking your personal interest as something Lego has to do here. They are already bringing older sets back, but that only works with a certain amount of sets. With to many sets at once, the buyers would split among them based on what they like most. The more sets, the less buyers you will have per set, resulting with them not doing well. In the end that would lead to the opposite of what you want.

Actually i only want good minifigs. I would already be happy if i could get a handful of civilian minifigs of good quality (POTC or LOTR printing style) in playsets with some useful bricks. I don't care about sets as a building experience as i will only treat them as parts packs anyway. Nowadays i buy sets rarely and its an even more rare event that i build them. I mostly buy bricks and pieces. But my point is, all those history themed minifigs are up at ali express and not everybody is as picky as me (or hindered by their brains like i am ).

With so many of Legos competitors producing history themed sets there is obviously a market for those and i selfishly hope that more and more AFOLs buy those products from other brands so Lego finaly understands that they have to make those sets themselves or othwerwise a fair share of the market will be lost for them. That's my secret plan Competition is good for the customer after all.

[Black Falcon]

10 minutes ago, Yperio_Bricks said:

With so many of Legos competitors producing history themed sets there is obviously a market for those and i selfishly hope that more and more AFOLs buy those products from other brands so Lego finaly understands that they have to make those sets themselves or othwerwise a fair share of the market will be lost for them. That's my secret plan Competition is good for the customer after all.

I see two issued here. First of all Lego is doing these Sets again. Well big Sets mainly, but with the parts avaiable at pick a brick that shouldn´t matter to you then. Second issue would be that Lego doesn´t know how much of a certain product others sell. 

[Yperio_Bricks]

5 minutes ago, Black Falcon said:

I see two issued here. First of all Lego is doing these Sets again. Well big Sets mainly, but with the parts avaiable at pick a brick that shouldn´t matter to you then. Second issue would be that Lego doesn´t know how much of a certain product others sell. 

That's why i mentioned playets. POTC had a 15$ battlepack with 5 minifigs!! Something that seems impossible today. And not everybody is wealthy enough to buy a 500€ Rivendell. Poor people also want to play with Lego.

And i mentioned the printing of LOTR and POTC to differenciate from the minfigs, like for example the pirates or vikings they do, which look more &lt;insert that tiresome argument&gt;

Of course Lego does not know the sales numbers of all the other companies but when there are so many historic themed sets and minifigs on the market, the market must be big enough so that these companies earn some money and continue making those sets. And we don't even mentioned WW2 here. Also, from what i read, there are much more AFOLS today, then lets say, 5-10 years ago.

[SpacePolice89]

42 minutes ago, Yperio_Bricks said:

With so many of Legos competitors producing history themed sets there is obviously a market for those and i selfishly hope that more and more AFOLs buy those products from other brands so Lego finaly understands that they have to make those sets themselves or othwerwise a fair share of the market will be lost for them. That's my secret plan Competition is good for the customer after all.

I think that would backfire very badly, it would lead to the closure of many Lego plants and the Chinese CCP run companies taking over the market. It is best to support Lego while at the same time trying to influence them from within to make some of the sets and themes that we want.

4 hours ago, Toastie said:

It appears as if it is even shorter (15 - 20 years) - provided you don't do any substantial improvements to the design, and successfully renew the patent. Which is - for a (on the micron scale defined) LEGO brick made from ABS polymer - quite the challenge

Well, we all love the free market, don't we? Many things are affordable these days, simply because there is competition. And competition usually leads to quality/design improvements, market challenges, etc. etc. And in the world of capitalism, surely also to cannibalism, that's automatically built in there. Just imagine, this "free" market would not exist and every piece you can think of is patented - to the end of time. That would lead to crazy times!

If there were no competition - because their patents retire one after another, TLG would charge super-insane prices, would not put prints on one single piece, as stickers are so much cheaper, and so on and so forth. Now that they feel (heavily) the competition on the free market, they do improve, I believe to detect that here and there. But what do I know. Price-wise, they are still in money making heaven (look at their annual >profit< they make for decades) - but, well, they are apparently the market leader and produce the best quality bricks in the world. Not sure if kids need the best quality bricks in the world, but maybe adults. And this is what they are after, aren't they, the adults? So many black boxes on the shelves with display only models. But so be it, I don't have to buy them, because there are alternatives.

When your patent is that strong, then 15 - 20 years of raking in money is enough, the Gods of Patents say. You also had the same time to do something else.

The free market ... oh well.

Best regards,
Thorsten     

Competition is good but I believe it's wrong that other companies are allowed to make identical bricks. That is why I stick to a strict Lego only policy. Another important reason is that I like the Lego products specifically as well as many aspects of the Lego Group and their values.

[Toastie]

31 minutes ago, SpacePolice89 said:

It is best to support Lego while at the same time trying to influence them from within to make some of the sets and themes that we want.

Sets we want, new elements we want - sure, I can see that. My approach comes from a different angle, though. It was not about what he/she/it wants, it was more about market gears moving and patents regulating an otherwise closed (and merely stagnant) system.

And I can assure you I do parse the LEGO catalog every half year, I do BrickLink purchases, I love LEGO. But, as Donald "Duck" Dunn says in Blues Brothers: "If the shit fits, wear it". I am sitting right now in my attic. Looking to the right, up on the wall dominates the MK "Flying Dutchman". Believe it or not, this ship outruns every single pirate ship, TLG ever made, by an order of magnitude ;) Design wise that is, the bricks and plates are generic. Generic as in "Aspirin" - stupid Germans; scroll down to "Trademark" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspirin - they misspelled the name, duh 

All the best and take it easy,
Thorsten 

Edited November 12, 2023 by Toastie

[Peppermint_M]

I believe there was documentation that arose in the Tyco/TLG lawsuit of the 80s, where TLG had to admit that they had taken the original idea from the Kiddicraft design. As in, it was teased out in a court of law. That doesn't sound like permission to me...

https://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKPC/1988/3.html

It is a little dry, but there is no mention of permission, simply that Interlego purchased any remaining patents from the Page estate holders. 

Anywho, I have dusted of my crown for this argument  

I will buy any baseplates, accessories and cool themes that LEGO don't/won't produce and carry on enjoying building  

 

[Toastie]

56 minutes ago, Peppermint_M said:

and carry on enjoying building  

Here is to feeling good

Best,
Thorsten