42143 - Ferrari Daytona SP3

[allanp]

While it's important to have some shelf appeal and attract the casual fan, I still don't see why that should be their only target with every single bloody 18+ set from every bloody theme including Technic! Adults are fairly diverse people. Some might like pure shelf queen's with nothing of interest on the inside. But why cater only to them? You can still have shelf appeal while still having something of interest to the gear heads out there, the 1:8 scale cars are big and expensive enough to invest some time and effort into the internal mechanics that make it a supercar. Yes there's beauty on the outside, but like the real life F1 gearbox video posted earlier (and dare I say my own first draft gearbox example, which I have a few improvements in mind for) there's a mechanical beauty on the inside of these vehicles also that shouldn't be overlooked. The Sian/Ferrari gearboxes however are not things of mechanical beauty, they are overly colourful overly complicated mechanical hot messes!

Edited June 7, 2022 by allanp

[kbalage]

17 hours ago, howitzer said:

Considering how many System sets are nowdays being marketed strictly for adults and apparently selling well, I don't think the internal mechanisms are important anymore as a justification for buying toys. Almost all of these sets are more or less representations of real-world objects, which is probably enough justification for adults to buy them. Of course some non-realworld stuff is also marketed to adults, especially Star Wars UCS sets and such, but that has more to do with fandom culture as it has become normal and even "cool" to be a fan of some fiction franchise and show it off.

I'd suggest to browse the comment section a bit of my review videos about the Ferrari, you'd be surprised how many people say that they want to see all the gears and mechanical stuff inside because that what makes the build serious, just like @gyenesvi said. Most buyers don't really care about the real functionality and how things work (a big majority does not even understand them), they just want to feel the accomplishment of putting a complex thing together. 

I sort of understand this mindset although I do not agree with it. I think it'd be better for everyone if the 1:8 cars would abandon the complex gearbox (an electric supercar would be a great excuse for that), and use all the space and piece capacity for either more details on the inside and the outside, more simple-to-use mechanical functions (doors, active aero elements, adjustable suspension etc), or either e.g. to add a light kit by default that would increase the wow factor. These are 100% display pieces after all, and if the gearbox is removed from the equation then there's significantly less things to mess up :)  

[howitzer]

6 minutes ago, kbalage said:

I'd suggest to browse the comment section a bit of my review videos about the Ferrari, you'd be surprised how many people say that they want to see all the gears and mechanical stuff inside because that what makes the build serious, just like @gyenesvi said. Most buyers don't really care about the real functionality and how things work (a big majority does not even understand them), they just want to feel the accomplishment of putting a complex thing together. 

I sort of understand this mindset although I do not agree with it. I think it'd be better for everyone if the 1:8 cars would abandon the complex gearbox (an electric supercar would be a great excuse for that), and use all the space and piece capacity for either more details on the inside and the outside, more simple-to-use mechanical functions (doors, active aero elements, adjustable suspension etc), or either e.g. to add a light kit by default that would increase the wow factor. These are 100% display pieces after all, and if the gearbox is removed from the equation then there's significantly less things to mess up :)  

But is that a justification ("I'm allowed to buy this without losing face because it's complex and interesting") or does it just make the set more interesting to the buyer ("I want to buy this because it's complex and interesting")?

I completely agree with your second paragraph.

[suffocation]

Most of the members of a certain Italian farcebook page who got the model and built it didn't notice the issue with the gearbox; some of them didn't even realise that jumble of gears was actually meant to be a gearbox. Says a lot about the average Afol, at least in this tiny corner of the world.

[kbalage]

8 minutes ago, howitzer said:

But is that a justification ("I'm allowed to buy this without losing face because it's complex and interesting") or does it just make the set more interesting to the buyer ("I want to buy this because it's complex and interesting")?

It can be both, depending in the individual, but I think the second option is probably more common. There might be a 3rd one to justify the price, but that's probably more like TLG's perspective - "it costs $400 because it has a complex mechanism inside, look at all those gears doing stuff!"

@suffocation I am not surprised, there were multiple people who build the Lamborghini but only realized how the door opening mechanism supposed to work after seeing the demonstration in the Ferrari review. And that one is a pretty obvious and exposed mechanism, now imagine how many people will miss it in the Ferrari where it is pretty much hidden!

But this also very much shows how TLG is positioning these sets as pure display pieces - most Technic sets with functions have brief instructions at the end of the manuals demonstrating the usage of the functions. There's nothing like this in the manual of the 1:8 supercars, like people shouldn't really care about these. 

[astyanax]

19 minutes ago, suffocation said:

some of them didn't even realise that jumble of gears was actually meant to be a gearbox

But it says so right on page 34... in English and German...

[suffocation]

1 minute ago, astyanax said:

But it says so right on page 34... in English and German...

[Gimmick]

11 hours ago, allanp said:

While it's important to have some shelf appeal and attract the casual fan, I still don't see why that should be their only target with every single bloody 18+ set from every bloody theme including Technic! Adults are fairly diverse people. Some might like pure shelf queen's with nothing of interest on the inside. But why cater only to them?

Easy to solve! All you have to do is: Find an equivalent large group of buyers, that is interested in such technical details :D

14 minutes ago, kbalage said:

It can be both, depending in the individual, but I think the second option is probably more common.

 

I wonder what percentage of people actually do play with sets like the 42055 or even 42100, or if it's more about "what those sets theoretically can do" and it's all like in the astronauts-on-the-moon-meme "It's a display set after all. - It always have been!" ;D

[allanp]

Right, so some people didn't know what a gearbox was and so they don't need to include one, is that the reasoning here? 

Believe it or not there are some adult people out there that actually do know what the gearstick in their car is for. And besides, can we really be that surprised when that hot mess of gears and axles in the Sian/Ferrari is hardly recognisable as a gearbox? Maybe if it was designed more realistically they would have recognised it as that thing that makes engine go broom! 

And I still haven't heard a good argument as to why TLG should be targeting ONLY people that don't know what a gearbox is with their most expensive Technic sets. I didn't know what a differential gear was as a child, but thanks to Technic I was able to build and fully understand its function even if I couldn't put it into words.

11 minutes ago, Gimmick said:

Easy to solve! All you have to do is: Find an equivalent large group of buyers, that is interested in such technical details :D

I wonder what percentage of people actually do play with sets like the 42055 or even 42100, or if it's more about "what those sets theoretically can do" and it's all like in the astronauts-on-the-moon-meme "It's a display set after all. - It always have been!" ;D

No you don't have to find an equivalent group of buyers. You can keep the existing group of buyers but add onto it an additional group of buyers that are interested in those technical details. What's more, the kind of more realistic gearboxes I suggest would be more easily recognisable as a gearbox to the casual buyer, and be easier for them to build and understand, so everyone is happy!

[Celeri]

18 hours ago, howitzer said:

Considering how many System sets are nowdays being marketed strictly for adults and apparently selling well, I don't think the internal mechanisms are important anymore as a justification for buying toys. Almost all of these sets are more or less representations of real-world objects, which is probably enough justification for adults to buy them. Of course some non-realworld stuff is also marketed to adults, especially Star Wars UCS sets and such, but that has more to do with fandom culture as it has become normal and even "cool" to be a fan of some fiction franchise and show it off.

I am pretty sure that for die-hard SW fans, all the saga's vehicles can be pretty much considered as realworld stuff... from a certain point of view

16 minutes ago, allanp said:

And I still haven't heard a good argument as to why TLG should be targeting ONLY people that don't know what a gearbox is with their most expensive Technic sets.

It really depends on what a "good" argument is to you, because the answer is quite simple, actually. If your audience is 80% people who do not care about mechanics, your marketing department WILL adapt the products so that it pleases these 80%, and make only marginal things to try and attract the remaining 20%.

[kbalage]

5 minutes ago, allanp said:

Right, so some people didn't know what a gearbox was and so they don't need to include one, is that the reasoning here? 

Not really. LEGO would be an amazing educational tool to teach kids and adults about gearboxes, if it was used in a proper way. Currently the aim of the $400 set is to have a big fancy car on display, nothing more. There's exactly zero information in the manual about the functions, the visible difference of the gear speeds is totally neglieable with the hidden pistons, and so on. The main reason for using Technic pieces might be their sheer size and the panels, an 1:8 car would be too heavy and expensive using Creator Expert-style building.

TLG could turn this around with minimal effort, such as:

• Clear indication of the functions. The last 1:8 supercar that had a sticker on the DNR selector was the Porsche. If you are not familiar with the system, nothing tells you what's going on there. You don't know either which way is shifting up or down, which is your actual gear, so the relationship between wheel speed and engine speed can be misinterpreted. 42139 is a rare example from the new generation where it is indicated and it is done correctly, the Land Rover was an infamous example where it was indicated but incorrectly. 
• Include explanation in the manual and/or videos about the functionality of the gearbox and the whole drivetrain. There are already videos linked from the manual for the positioning of the orange wave selectors, so it could be done easily.
• The app of the Zetros had a very cool Augmented Reality function where you could "see through" the body of the car and observe the working mechanism in details. It wouldn't need much effort to add some explanation to such app, and boom - people could actually learn what they just built, and TLG managers could be happy by implementing a 21st century app function!

So it's really up to TLG do decide how they would like to position these sets. As currently they are clearly targeted as display pieces for casual builders without any added educational value, there's no need for the gearbox. I would love to see this being changed, but until then it's just a bunch of extra gears. I can't recall the exact quote, but even Uwe mentions in the book that the most important aspect of this set was the look, so he had to design it in an usual way, starting from the exterior and focusing on that.

[allanp]

@kbalage you are of course correct about what their aims and goals appear to be and I'm not denying that. But I also agree with you in that I'd also love to see a slight change there. Not so much away from their current aims and targets as I do understand them, they can keep those but I'd love to see more of an additional effort towards the true mechanical aspect of the Technic theme. Of course they should be great display pieces but that doesn't mean they can't be anything other than that.  And forgive me, when you say in your reviews "these are just display models" you always seemed fully happy with that fact. I didn't know you'd like to see things being changed also. 

I'm not sure it about trying to prioritize being "educational" as such. It's about being close enough to reality that it has its own coolness and wow factor. A gearbox isn't just a means to an end, it can be a mechanical beauty in its own right. And when it's close enough to reality or "build for real", it's educational value is an unavoidable but very positive side effect. 

But as things are right now, they are just display models and they might as well not have gearboxes. But that does NOT mean that's what should happen. That's only a sad lamentation of the current state of things. If they are only display models and nothing more, it's THAT that should be fixed. These sets sell a lot. Increase that, even if it is only by only a small percentage, it's still a lot of extra sales.

Edited June 8, 2022 by allanp

[Gimmick]

1 hour ago, allanp said:

And I still haven't heard a good argument as to why TLG should be targeting ONLY people that don't know what a gearbox is with their most expensive Technic sets. I didn't know what a differential gear was as a child, but thanks to Technic I was able to build and fully understand its function even if I couldn't put it into words.

No you don't have to find an equivalent group of buyers. You can keep the existing group of buyers but add onto it an additional group of buyers that are interested in those technical details. What's more, the kind of more realistic gearboxes I suggest would be more easily recognisable as a gearbox to the casual buyer, and be easier for them to build and understand, so everyone is happy!

I'm not an plastic/moulding expert so I have to do some assumptions based on my limited experience with Lego parts.

And I guess: A design like yours will not work, because I assume, that the axles will bend, the friction will be enormous, the little knobb will not stay inside those grooves, the little plastic noses will get damaged everytime you disengage them.... because all those things already do happen at the currently larger scale.

But I do think, that a "linear" gearbox with only 3 or 4 (or 2 xD....haha...) gears (no N, no RC) should be doable with the currently available parts. The concept would be the same, the parts would be a bit less realistic. So the choice I see is not "your design vs the current design" but "a very long, simple, but conceptional more realistic design vs the current version". What would you prefer? Would such a simple gearbox be special enough for a high-end model or would the model actually lose some 'technical magic for everyone'? I don't know ^^.

Or is there a point where we have to accept, that there are plastic/Lego problems in a Lego world, that need equivalent solutions? And maybe calling such a gearbox "unrealistic" is not even correct, because it's a real solution for a real problem :D

And even maybier they think such a gearbox is the interesting and educational part of the model, and the people do actually try to analyse it xD sry ;p.

 

[allanp]

51 minutes ago, Gimmick said:

I'm not an plastic/moulding expert so I have to do some assumptions based on my limited experience with Lego parts.

And I guess: A design like yours will not work, because I assume, that the axles will bend, the friction will be enormous, the little knobb will not stay inside those grooves, the little plastic noses will get damaged everytime you disengage them.... because all those things already do happen at the currently larger scale.

But I do think, that a "linear" gearbox with only 3 or 4 (or 2 xD....haha...) gears (no N, no RC) should be doable with the currently available parts. The concept would be the same, the parts would be a bit less realistic. So the choice I see is not "your design vs the current design" but "a very long, simple, but conceptional more realistic design vs the current version". What would you prefer? Would such a simple gearbox be special enough for a high-end model or would the model actually lose some 'technical magic for everyone'? I don't know ^^.

Or is there a point where we have to accept, that there are plastic/Lego problems in a Lego world, that need equivalent solutions? And maybe calling such a gearbox "unrealistic" is not even correct, because it's a real solution for a real problem :D

And even maybier they think such a gearbox is the interesting and educational part of the model, and the people do actually try to analyse it xD sry ;p.

 

It's all good 

My gearbox is a first sketch but axles shouldn't bend if only driving a fake engine, for motorised models you can add bracing beams between gear pairs. The friction will be much lower as there's only two rotating axles (or three for an added reverse idler gear) and no power is sent through idler gears on rotating axles. As the narrow drive rings are being pushed/pulled along by pegs on both sides there is no twisting force meaning very little force is required to move them, so no need for massive pegs on the top part. But still this is only a first draft to show how it could be. I'm not saying this untested first draft is a completely finished design by any means.

Of course there comes a point where we have to accept the limitations of plastic but I don't think we're there yet. I'm also sure they have the tools and the talent to come up with something just as compact, frictionless, cool looking and realistic given enough reason to!

Edited June 8, 2022 by allanp

[kbalage]

1 hour ago, allanp said:

And forgive me, when you say in your reviews "these are just display models" you always seemed fully happy with that fact. I didn't know you'd like to see things being changed also. 

I had to re-check my reviews to be on the safe side  At the end of my Ferrari video I said that it's a great looking cool set as a display piece, but as such it does not need a complex gearbox at all. I said the same in my 1:8 supercar comparison video about all the official sets. I even checked my Sián review from 2 years ago, and I said this as a conclusion: " I think you should definitely get it for the look if you like it, but maybe find something else if you want a playable Technic set with cool functions."

So yeah, I understand why these 1:8 Technic automotive sculptures exist, I see their target audience and I like their look and aesthetics, but this doesn't mean I like the fact that they pack a whole bunch of practically useless gears and other functional parts that are there just because they feel good to be there, and there has to be something for $400 since the box says Technic. I thought I made this point pretty clear in the video, but maybe it was not the case. 

I respect your point of view by bringing them closer to the reality and that would increase the wow factor for a fraction of people, but honestly I think it wouldn't add much to the set in general without significantly improving the added educational content. The average buyer wouldn't understand more of your gearbox design without an explanation on the concept, and people who really respect and understand the realism wouldn't necessarily want to pay that big sum that is spent on the look.

I have to relate again to the 42139 ATV, that one has a 2 speed gearbox, but it still has stickers indicating what engine speed you should expect in which position. That thing with the super simple gear ratios might have an educational aspect on its own and the stickers might be enough as an explanation, but based on my experience with the Defender, the vast majority of people building it has no clue about the drivetrain even after building it multiple times, and they are simply disappointed because something doesn't work but they don't know what and why.

I think customers who want their big cool looking rolling sculptures would deserve a nice mix of Technic and System pieces with steering, suspension and some easy to use and impressive mechanical functions in ECTO-1 / Sián style (examples for the functions, minus the gearbox). Technic nerds or people who want to actually use the functions (and might even play with them!) would deserve sets that have a more manageable scale meaning less extra pieces are spent on the look, but packed to the brim with functionality. Just take a look what fits in the 42139 ATV, now imagine if the 42096 Porsche was this crowded and functional inside. 

[allanp]

@kbalage again you make a lot of good points. And yes my point about being educational was a bit strangely worded. But a lot if toys that aim for educational only hit boring, where as models that aim for crazy levels of authenticity hit exciting and educational. But, perhaps more confusingly, I'm actually arguing for a bit less complexity in these supercars. They don't need to be as packed as the ATV nor should they be. Even if we add the much wanted brakes to the cars it wouldn't be that packed. The gearbox I described would actually decrease complexity and would hopefully not feel like so many useless gears, as there would be far fewer gears and less pieces required overall. But another thing that would help a lot would be an optional simple motor upgrade. The wheels would be lifted off the ground and a high speed motor added to the engine so you could see and hear the wheels spin faster and faster as you flick through the gears, with a satisfying brrrRRRR click brrrrRRRR, click brrrrRRRR. I think that would not detract from it being a display piece, if anything it would make it a more dynamic and impressive display piece to casual fans to see a highly detailed car that actually went brrrrrRRRRRRR!!!!!. But of course we'd want a nice low friction gearbox to get the wheels spinning good and fast! 

Edited June 8, 2022 by allanp

[astyanax]

16 minutes ago, allanp said:

But another thing that would help a lot would be an optional simple motor upgrade. The wheels would be lifted off the ground and a high speed motor added to the engine so you could see and hear the wheels spin faster and faster as you flick through the gears, with a satisfying brrrRRRR click brrrrRRRR, click brrrrRRRR. I think that would not detract from it being a display piece, if anything it would make it a more dynamic and impressive display piece to casual fans to see a highly detailed car that actually went brrrrrRRRRRRR!!!!!. But of course we'd want a nice low friction gearbox to get the wheels spinning good and fast!

I really don't wanna promote any different model here, but just wanted to show you what "click-brrrr" would look like, especially in case of a high-speed motor (or 2). I think the difference in gear ratio would actually need to be exaggerated more, because honestly, the spinning difference is hardly noticeable like this... (But yes, while driving the difference is in fact clear.)

 

[Polarlicht]

Finally got the Set today

 

The sense of perfec...WAIT

 

[LvdH]

12 minutes ago, Polarlicht said:

The sense of perfec...WAIT

 

If you ignore every imperfection, it’s perfect  

But seriously, that sucks and imo unacceptable in a set like this. I’d contact LEGO. You’ll probably get a free wheel or even set of wheels, no questions asked.

[Polarlicht]

Contacting support as we speek. They have to send me 1 left and 1 right wheel. They don't really have any in stock, but i can order anyway.

Guess thats the punishment for actually winning the book lottery

[astyanax]

I'm kinda disappointed about the choice of renderings accompanying the different build sections. Expand the spoiler to see what I mean.

It starts so well. For bags 1, 2, and 3 we get nice renderings of the salient part of what's about to be built. Especially the 3rd image is cool, as it shows the frame alone.

But then for bags 4, 5, 6, and 7 they drop the ball and just show the finished car from different angles. What gives?

Spoiler

 

[R0Sch]

1 hour ago, LvdH said:

If you ignore every imperfection, it’s perfect  

But seriously, that sucks and imo unacceptable in a set like this. I’d contact LEGO. You’ll probably get a free wheel or even set of wheels, no questions asked.

And next time maybe wait until the quality issues from first batch production are fixed including instruction mistakes.

[technicbuilder]

16 minutes ago, R0Sch said:

And next time maybe wait until the quality issues from first batch production are fixed including instruction mistakes.

Yes indeed ,and i a few months i will buy this set new,for almost half the price at this moment .

[LvdH]

Has it been mentioned that the paddle shifters are reversed? I've never driven a paddle shift car but I'm pretty sure that pulling the right paddle shifts up and pulling the left paddle shifts down. So if I spin the blue gear that is pretty much directly coupled to the engine, and shift up by pulling the right paddle, the rotors would rotate faster. But this is not the case, as they're rotating slower.

[GirchyGirchy]

1 hour ago, LvdH said:

Has it been mentioned that the paddle shifters are reversed? I've never driven a paddle shift car but I'm pretty sure that pulling the right paddle shifts up and pulling the left paddle shifts down. So if I spin the blue gear that is pretty much directly coupled to the engine, and shift up by pulling the right paddle, the rotors would rotate faster. But this is not the case, as they're rotating slower.

It sounds correct - an upshift means the engine rotates slower relative to the speed of the car, not faster.  Think about driving your car...1st gear, the engine is spinning quickly but you're not moving much.  Once it gets to 6th gear, it's turning slowly but you're moving along quickly.  Try to downshift to 1st, and your engine will explode as the spinny bits try to turn 20k+RPM.  This is assuming by rotor, you mean pistons.

Regardless, yes, right is upshift and left is downshift.

Edited June 8, 2022 by GirchyGirchy