What was the best Lego castle before 10305? Which is the greatest of all time?

[jodawill]

I think most of us agree that 10305 is one of the greatest Lego castles of all time, if not the best. But how long do you think it's been since Lego has made a truly great castle? Not the greatest castle of all time, and not one that was simply ok. When's the last time they made a castle that you think is truly a great set?

Defining what constitutes a castle might be a little ambiguous. For this poll, I restricted the options to non-licensed sets where the characters are humans. I'm only including flagship sets here, not the smaller sets.

Next, what do you think is the greatest castle of all time?

[BrickJagger]

It's pretty eye opening that the majority of people who have voted so far believe that it's been 30 years since we last had a great castle. As I remember it, the 2010 King's Castle was universally loved, not only for how it looked, but its innovative modular system and the fact that it wasn't an open-backed layout like many of its predecessors. If anything, I'd like to hear the rationale for why that one is not a great set. 

[jodawill]

5 minutes ago, BrickJagger said:

It's pretty eye opening that the majority of people who have voted so far believe that it's been 30 years since we last had a great castle. As I remember it, the 2010 King's Castle was universally loved, not only for how it looked, but its innovative modular system and the fact that it wasn't an open-backed layout like many of its predecessors. If anything, I'd like to hear the rationale for why that one is not a great set. 

I've always loved the castle theme, but I remember even as a kid looking at the big castles thinking they look very disappointing. My first set was Black Monarch's Ghost. I was four years old, and my mom bought it on clearance. So I completely missed even seeing advertisements for Black Knight's Castle back then (except there was probably a mini catalog in my set).

I don't like the 2010 castle. The modular design is cool. It hearkens back to the old Black Knights sets. But I'm not a fan of the color scheme and all the frilly red parts, and I don't like the way the lion knights look in that wave. It only has one horse and the design of the barding isn't my favorite. There are no skeletons and no ghosts. The portcullis and the drawbridge are nice features. I just don't think it looks very good. At the very best it's just "ok." It's pretty bland. I think there are other castles even after 1992 that look better than it. But that's just my personal opinion.

[iragm]

16 minutes ago, BrickJagger said:

It's pretty eye opening that the majority of people who have voted so far believe that it's been 30 years since we last had a great castle. As I remember it, the 2010 King's Castle was universally loved, not only for how it looked, but its innovative modular system and the fact that it wasn't an open-backed layout like many of its predecessors. If anything, I'd like to hear the rationale for why that one is not a great set. 

It's a rehash of 6080 without the iconic figures...  Every castle made between up until 6086 offered some kind of improvement over the last - the use of gray and castle walls in 6080, corner bricks and the Tudors wall piece in 6074, a deliberately asymmetrical layout and raised baseplate in 6081, the use of black in 6085 and (finally) putting every great feature together in 6086.

Lego castle design really suffered after they fired Daniel August Krentz in 1999, although Dragon Masters and Royal Knights were already a big step down from the earlier stuff.

[jodawill]

9 minutes ago, iragm said:

It's a rehash of 6080 without the iconic figures...  Every castle made between up until 6086 offered some kind of improvement over the last - the use of gray and castle walls in 6080, corner bricks and the Tudors wall piece in 6074, a deliberately asymmetrical layout and raised baseplate in 6081, the use of black in 6085 and (finally) putting every great feature together in 6086.

Lego castle design really suffered after they fired Daniel August Krentz in 1999, although Dragon Masters and Royal Knights were already a big step down from the earlier stuff.

Fired? Do you have a source for that? What happened?

Edit: According to this article, he retired in 1999.

Edited July 15, 2022 by jodawill

[SirBlake]

This is a fun poll. Thanks for putting it together.

I chose 2010 Kingdom's castle as the last great one, and 1984 6080 as the greatest. Here's why...

Though neither is the most beautiful or sophisticated castle, 6080 set the stage for real Lego castle (with all due respect to the original, yellow with pink stickers all over it never did anything for me). I was 9 years old when I got it in '84, and it set the stage for a lifetime of appreciation for the theme, and for its time, it was an absolute revelation. The way it hinged open and connected to other sets like the blacksmith and armory was incredible, and provided many hours of play. It was bigger and badder than the Black Falcons stuff, and with so many guards, archers and knights, staked a claim as the centerpiece of the theme. I still love it for all of those reasons, so though Black Knight's castle is surely more interesting in a lot of ways, 6080 wins for being the first great one to exist, and it eclipses many, many castles that came later.

As for the Kingdom's castle, the last couple of years can do a lot to reset our expectations, and we are lucky enough to be picky because we've gotten 3 all-time greats in quick succession, (If the Creator Medieval Castle was an option, I would have been very tempted to put it in this spot) but I remember 2010, and what it felt like to get 15+ years of crap served up to us (Just my opinion*). 7946 was a fantastic return to form, with what I felt were excellent minifigs and a clean, if somewhat plain, overall design that was a good nod to the classics that made Castle great in the first place. Adding some next-level offerings like MVR and especially the Joust, and man, what a great theme. It made 2013 Castle that much more disappointing. EDIT: also, the introduction of the Great Helm on kinghts. Love that piece.

 

*mid-90's through to 2010 was my dark age for a reason. Royal/KK 1&2 are/were pretty much garbage to my eye, and while fantasy era offered outstanding minifigs and the greatness of MMV, I found the main castle to be lackluster and a whole lot of over-the-top or half-baked sets that didn't do much for me.

Edited July 15, 2022 by SirBlake

[jodawill]

4 minutes ago, SirBlake said:

If the Creator Medieval Castle was an option, I would have been very tempted to put it in this spot) but I remember 2010, and what it felt like to get 15+ years of crap served up to us (Just my opinion*). 7946 was a fantastic return to form, with what I felt were excellent minifigs and a clean, if somewhat plain, overall design that was a good nod to the classics that made Castle great in the first place. Adding some next-level offerings like MVR and especially the Joust, and man, what a great theme. It made 2013 Castle that much more disappointing.

You know, I completely forgot about the Creator castle because it wasn't listed under Castle on Brickset. It looks like I can only add it to the bottom of the list now. Should I add it? Does it count as proper Castle?

[SirBlake]

1 minute ago, jodawill said:

You know, I completely forgot about the Creator castle because it wasn't listed under Castle on Brickset. It looks like I can only add it to the bottom of the list now. Should I add it? Does it count as proper Castle?

Eh, I think it's fine. Being a Creator 3-in-1 without a cohesive theme around it makes it an outlier anyway. Plus, because of it's nature, is it fair to compare 3 of them combined with all 3 builds put together into one massive version (the way I have mine set up) vs. the others? Probably not.

I'd say we can leave it as-is and let it be a write-in for anybody that just loves it that much. 

[iragm]

57 minutes ago, jodawill said:

Fired? Do you have a source for that? What happened? 

Edit: According to this article, he retired in 1999.

From that same article, he "was retired".  It was almost certainly not his decision to leave.  There were certainly some top-down decisions that were made around that time which hurt both castle and pirates.

[TeriXeri]

While I truly love the set , I don't think 31120 3-in-1 would really fit in the list, the build is very good but the overall fit, the figure selection is low.

 

I don't have first hand experience with any of those listed sets, so I chose the 2007 set as it was the first of 3 recent modern castles, in an era after Knight's Kingdom 2 , the modularity, and dragon at the time makes it feel a bit different.

2010 looks like a great castle throwback to the original days of 80s, the gatehouse certainly has a 6080 throwback, with a Black Falcon side tower, and the certainly fits well with 2012 Joust.

2013 looks again a simplified version of 2007 with a year 2000 looking siege weapon, and more of a "repeat" of concepts of 2007.

 

I picked 1995 6090: Royal Knight's Castle as my favorite Castle (+year/wave), it's clear it took its inspiration from the design of 6086: Black Knight's Castle (same designer even), some things give it a little edge, like the heraldry being my favorite, the king's horse barding, the baseplate is 50% bigger and not dominated by a big ramp taking 1/3th of the interior (it has a studded courtyard and smaller plate ramp inside), and the way you can enter to the jail/dungeon via a different passage is interesting, and while the set lacks a clear front-drawbridge (it has a smaller side one still), there's also the Royal Drawbridge set from the same year

Year 2000/2006 version of raised baseplate castle was a huge step back of the same concept of a raised baseplate castle.

 

 

If expanding to Fantasy sets , I'd say 2009 7097: Trolls' Mountain Fortress is a high contender for best fantasy villain castle , and could even fit together with 2020 71722: Skull Sorcerer's Dungeons

Skull sorcerer Dungeon isn't a Castle per se, but still a worthy set, and could serve as a modern variant to 7093: Skeleton Tower , especially with the skeleton Dragon of the same wave, and small journey expansion sets to make a bigger landscape.

 

Edited July 16, 2022 by TeriXeri

[jodawill]

29 minutes ago, iragm said:

From that same article, he "was retired".  It was almost certainly not his decision to leave.  There were certainly some top-down decisions that were made around that time which hurt both castle and pirates.

If he was really pushed out, that explains a lot. As a kid, I viewed the quality of Lego sets dropping dramatically around that time. I still loved Lego, but I stopped paying attention to new sets around 2001 because I just didn't think the new ones were any good. He was one of the best designers they ever had, no doubt about it. Imagine firing the guy who designed Eldorado Fortress. Unbelievable

[Black Feather]

Well, I had pretty long dark age from about 1989 to 2019.  So that definitely affects my opinion.  I spent a lot of time in the store admiring all the castle sets in the 80s but was only able to afford about six of them.      My first castle was 6080.  And when I saving up for another to oppose it 6085 came out and became the last one I bought.  They were absolutely perfect in combination.  Reverse color scheme.  12 minifigures.  4 horses.  So these are my two all time favorites and difficult to choose between them.  But this poll lets me pick both by choosing 6085 as the last great castle and 6080 as the all time greatest.  Of course I freely admit I am not being fair to anything that came out during that long 30 year gap.  But it’s all subjective anyway.

[Phyre]

Since I didn't start collecting Castle until 2007 with the Fantasy Era, I can only really compare the four castles I own, starting with 10176 in 2006.  I'm sure some of the older castles might be better but I have yet to own any of them so I can't really judge them.  Of the four that I own, the 2007 Fantasy Era and 2010 Kingdoms castles definitely stand out above the other two.  Of those two I would have to give the edge to the Kingdoms one; the sections are all really well designed and that tower with the red roof really stands out.  So that gets my vote in both categories.  But from looks alone, yes, 10305 appears to be the best ever, hands down.  That's to be expected just because of the size and all the advanced building techniques present in a set of this scale.  I can't wait to get one.

[Triceron]

I never had a proper Castle set back as a kid, so I can't say I have any experience with any of that.  At most, I took all my old smaller sets and moc'd em up into big castles.

The only real castle I own is the Monster Fighter's Vampyre Castle which I picked up a couple years back on the after market.  Lion Knight's Castle will be my first official Castle in my collection.

[jodawill]

2 minutes ago, Triceron said:

I never had a proper Castle set back as a kid, so I can't say I have any experience with any of that.  At most, I took all my old smaller sets and moc'd em up into big castles.

The only real castle I own is the Monster Fighter's Vampyre Castle which I picked up a couple years back on the after market.  Lion Knight's Castle will be my first official Castle in my collection.

I never had any castles when I was a kid either. I based my decision just off the photos and YouTube reviews I've watched. Actually, to this day, I've never owned a castle. 10305 will be my first. Black Monarch's Ghost was my first set, then I got a couple other small sets - 1712 Crossbow Cart and 6028 Treasure Cart. Those are the only castle sets I ever had as a kid because we just couldn't afford much.

As an adult, I've picked up some more: most of the Dragon Knights sets, Forestmen's Crossing, 1877 Crusader's Cart, 7955 Wizard, 6024 Bandit Ambush, 6007 Bat Lord, and 7188 King's Carriage Ambush. No castles at all. None of the castles they've made in the past 30 years have appealed to me, and I just haven't been able to convince myself yet to drop the money down on Black Knight's Castle. I think I will after 10305 is discontinued.

The results of this pull are interesting. So far, about 2/3 of the voters think it's been more than 25 years since Lego has released a great castle. It seems Lego believes that people just don't want to buy castles anymore. Is it possible that they're wrong, and the problem is that they just haven't produced any castles worth buying in over 25 years? I hope 10305 sells so many copies, it forces TLG's hand into producing more.

[SirBlake]

1 minute ago, jodawill said:

Is it possible that they're wrong, and the problem is that they just haven't produced any castles worth buying in over 25 years? I hope 10305 sells so many copies, it forces TLG's hand into producing more.

Not just possible: likely. 
 

While I personally champion Kingdoms as a return to form, I absolutely respect the opinion that the “last great” castle was 25+ years ago. We’ve waded through quite a bit of disappointment over the decades. 

The success of the Ideas/Creator/90th sets will hopefully be a strong influence on future offerings. 

[jodawill]

3 minutes ago, SirBlake said:

Not just possible: likely. 
 

While I personally champion Kingdoms as a return to form, I absolutely respect the opinion that the “last great” castle was 25+ years ago. We’ve waded through quite a bit of disappointment over the decades. 

The success of the Ideas/Creator/90th sets will hopefully be a strong influence on future offerings. 

I actually largely agree about Kingdoms being a return to form. I don't like the castle, but there are a lot of strong sets in that wave. I think those are definitely the best castle sets since the mid '90s, if not earlier.

[woodford86]

Its so hard to judge these, probably every one of us is swayed by our dark age. For example I had no idea 7946 was even a set until today - I stand by my 6086 vote but thats a really nice set too, I might even try to find one for sale. I do like that era of lion/dragon knights.

[Interceptor]

This is a fun poll. My Castle story began with 6080 King's Castle, which was originally a Christmas present for my elder brother from my parents back in 1986, but I played with it the most, it was sitting on my shelf for ages as a benchmark of 80's Castle sets. I love it to this day and managed to purchase it in like new condition with box and instructions some years ago. It would have been an easy thing to mark it as the greatest Castle set prior to 10305, but I I did not give in to the nostalgic temptation. I have collected all the great Castle sets from the 80s and 90s recently, including 6085, 6074, 6081, 6086, 6090, and I have to say that 6086 is the jewel of my entire Castle collection. It incorporates every good feature (e.g. drawbridge, portcullis, corner walls, Tudor wall pieces) from the former Castle sets, puts it on a super rised baseplate, has some nice additions (e.g. well in the yard, tavern) and it has the best minifigure selection of all, including a fluorescent ghost and the great white knight. For me 6086 was the last truly great castle set before 10305.

Of the newer castles, I think the 7946 was a good set (I really dislike the fantasy era sets) but it had some shortcomings (e.g. the number of minifigures and horse, extensive use of ugly catapults, stickers) and therefore I did not choose it as the last truly great castle set before 10305.

On the other hand, based on the available reviews and photos, in my opinion 10305 can easily become the greatest LEGO castle of all time.

[Triceron]

What I would really kill for are new factions in the same vein as the Classic Castle series.  Looking back at the series, what really sparked my joy in the different themes was not just the big castles, but the way each theme expanded the greater 'world'.

You have the classic castles with Crusaders and Black Knights.  Then you had Robin Hood style forest sets with Forestmen.  Then Black Knights introduced the Black stoned Castles and Boats.  Wolfpack had the large Tower, Dragon Masters had a Wizard's Workshop and Dragons, Royal Knights had a royal Drawbridge.  It felt like each new faction was expanding the world, and that's what I really liked about the theme.

Stuff like MMV and MVR are also looked upon very fondly and opened up the Castle themes.  And with the latest Medieval Blacksmith set, there is a lot of interest in Medieval setting sets that aren't just big Castles.

 

 I constantly wonder what would happen if they continued the Castle themes tied into the 90's era and expand it the way Wolfpack were roving bandits and the Dragon Masters were Dragon Hunters.  Something like a Barbarian faction of Berserkers, Druids and Grizzly Bears, or a faction of Questing Knights who search for ancient relics and magical artifacts.

Edited July 16, 2022 by Triceron

[INTENSS]

I’ve owned every one of these castles except 375/6075 (never liked the yellow color) and bought them all pretty much when they were released (or as gifts earlier on).  For me, it came down to 6086 and 6090.  Both were incredibly different than their predecessors and felt like large, fortified structures…but 6090 was a game changer to me.  It had so many interesting details that I had never seen in a Lego castle before - and it was huge!  I rebuilt it last year after years of moving around the country and felt the same thrill as when 17 year old me built it in 1995.  I still think the rear tower is one of the best ever designed in a set.  I never really liked the Lion crest for that faction, but the sets, and this castle in particular, were fantastic.

[Rattlebricks]

1 hour ago, INTENSS said:

I’ve owned every one of these castles except 375/6075 (never liked the yellow color) and bought them all pretty much when they were released (or as gifts earlier on).  For me, it came down to 6086 and 6090.  Both were incredibly different than their predecessors and felt like large, fortified structures…but 6090 was a game changer to me.  It had so many interesting details that I had never seen in a Lego castle before - and it was huge!  I rebuilt it last year after years of moving around the country and felt the same thrill as when 17 year old me built it in 1995.  I still think the rear tower is one of the best ever designed in a set.  I never really liked the Lion crest for that faction, but the sets, and this castle in particular, were fantastic.

6090 also my personal fav, followed by 6086. Not big fan of this new lion castle design though, but its still good overall.

2 hours ago, Triceron said:

What I would really kill for are new factions in the same vein as the Classic Castle series.  Looking back at the series, what really sparked my joy in the different themes was not just the big castles, but the way each theme expanded the greater 'world'.

You have the classic castles with Crusaders and Black Knights.  Then you had Robin Hood style forest sets with Forestmen.  Then Black Knights introduced the Black stoned Castles and Boats.  Wolfpack had the large Tower, Dragon Masters had a Wizard's Workshop and Dragons, Royal Knights had a royal Drawbridge.  It felt like each new faction was expanding the world, and that's what I really liked about the theme.

Stuff like MMV and MVR are also looked upon very fondly and opened up the Castle themes.  And with the latest Medieval Blacksmith set, there is a lot of interest in Medieval setting sets that aren't just big Castles.

 

 I constantly wonder what would happen if they continued the Castle themes tied into the 90's era and expand it the way Wolfpack were roving bandits and the Dragon Masters were Dragon Hunters.  Something like a Barbarian faction of Berserkers, Druids and Grizzly Bears, or a faction of Questing Knights who search for ancient relics and magical artifacts.

That would be awesome but sadly Lego keeps rebooting castle theme instead of expanding it. The 70s-90s are the best ones.

[Triceron]

23 minutes ago, Rattlebricks said:

6090 also my personal fav, followed by 6086. Not big fan of this new lion castle design though, but its still good overall.

That would be awesome but sadly Lego keeps rebooting castle theme instead of expanding it. The 70s-90s are the best ones.

We have a chance with this current reboot! :P

Also, gems like the Rogue (Wolfpack), Fright Knight and the upcoming Princess/Heart Knight are great throwbacks to 70's-90's Castle.  They'll throw in some Knights or Fantasy characters that do help expand on Castle, but only as individual minis.  I'm just holding on hope they could make a return to some modernized classics the same way they've done for the CMF series.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Triceron

[Rattlebricks]

19 minutes ago, Triceron said:

We have a chance with this current reboot! :P

Also, gems like the Rogue (Wolfpack), Fright Knight and the upcoming Princess/Heart Knight are great throwbacks to 70's-90's Castle.  They'll throw in some Knights or Fantasy characters that do help expand on Castle, but only as individual minis.  I'm just holding on hope they could make a return to some modernized classics the same way they've done for the CMF series.

Yes, I really dig those castle/fantasy CMF, even the newly created faction like Bear/grim knight . That also proof they're not ignoring or forgetting those factions completely. Perhaps if the current/recent castle stuff sells well , they will consider to expand it and add those factions :)

The current reboot does looks promosing since its directly based on the 80s sets unlike sets from 2000-2014.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Rattlebricks

[SirBlake]

CMF have certainly helped to keep things interesting, but nothing replaces a full theme when it comes to fully building things out. The bear and crow knights could really use some foot soldiers and archers.