Some thoughts after YEARS without a castle theme

[Itaria No Shintaku]

20 hours ago, Sir Dano said:

Those aren't even knock-offs, they're just third party prints and pieces.

Third party are non LEGO.
And, for my experience, people buying that stuff may be have the whole setting full of non LEGO pieces.
Why just limiting with helmets, shield printings and so on? That would not make sense.

[Itaria No Shintaku]

17 hours ago, MAB said:

Isn't it a RLOC? 

Sorry, yes, but no doubt still the L stands for LEGO.

[Shroffy123]

Im okay with third party bricks. Brick Warriors is awesome. I have purchased non lego minifigs in past (iron hill dwarves and elves) but won't do it again.

 

[Itaria No Shintaku]

On 10/27/2022 at 6:22 PM, Shroffy123 said:

Im okay with third party bricks. Brick Warriors is awesome. I have purchased non lego minifigs in past (iron hill dwarves and elves) but won't do it again.

 

I'm not judging what others do.
The minifigure is patent protected, and its patent covers legs, torsoes and heads. So weapons or headgear are not patent protected and third party can surely do that stuff.
I personally don't like to blend third party stuff with LEGO stuff.
I believe it's the same thing as putting salt in your cereal and milk breakfast. It's something that I strongly believe it doesn't blend. 

Still, if you want to do it, your taste, not mine, I just don't like it.
Entirely different stuff is using clones or knockoffs.

[Shroffy123]

4 hours ago, Itaria No Shintaku said:

I'm not judging what others do.
The minifigure is patent protected, and its patent covers legs, torsoes and heads. So weapons or headgear are not patent protected and third party can surely do that stuff.
I personally don't like to blend third party stuff with LEGO stuff.
I believe it's the same thing as putting salt in your cereal and milk breakfast. It's something that I strongly believe it doesn't blend. 

Still, if you want to do it, your taste, not mine, I just don't like it.
Entirely different stuff is using clones or knockoffs.

Bad analogy. Salt with cereal and milk is amazing.

There is a market for castle themed minfigi, etc. If Lego is not going to fill that need, someone else will, and has. 

[Itaria No Shintaku]

6 hours ago, Shroffy123 said:

Bad analogy. Salt with cereal and milk is amazing.

There is a market for castle themed minfigi, etc. If Lego is not going to fill that need, someone else will, and has. 

That's correct, someone else. And this should be a RLOC so the L stands for LEGO so we should discuss about LEGO, not about someone else.

(BTW I strongly disagree with your statement, third party helmets are clearly recognizable by a slightly-more-than-average-used eye and it's like writing a dark green text over a red background. They do not have the LEGO style and look pretty wrong. Depending on the creator, they either look too bulky and rough, or too refined and more fitting for a modelism situation... they just don't have the LEGO appeal.)

Edited October 29, 2022 by Itaria No Shintaku

[MAB]

I know it is a fine line, and different people have different thresholds. I always thought the Eurobricks ethos was that third party items are fine where they enhance LEGO but not where they are just (cheap) copies of LEGO items. And in that sense, I am fine with third party weapons and shields and other accessories that LEGO do not (or did not) produce. They enhance what LEGO make. For example, I bought a load of the Gondor soldier minifigures. I use the armour and helmets that came with them on genuine LEGO minifigures but I don't use the minifigures.

That said, in the Special Themes sections, there are huge numbers of threads on creating decals with artwork from existing LEGO figures, how to create sails, capes, skirts and other cloth items. This is all about creating "fake" LEGO because the originals are too scarce and hence too expensive. There is a very long-standing tradition of creativity of making / creating parts here, which greatly enhances the hobby for many users even though it is copyright infringement. So Eurobricks is in no way purist throughout the site. Of course, if there is a contest and the rules are only genuine LEGO parts, then they should be adhered to. Eurobricks also publishes articles where LEGO's trademarks are infringed on. For example, they recently frontpaged those LOTR brickheadz MOCs. MOCs that had box art made to look like they were genuine LEGO items such set numbers, part counts, BH series numbering, and they were also using LEGO trademarks, and even Warner Bros and Newline Cinema logos to make them look like a genuine product when they are not. To some that is fan creativity, to others it is trademark infringement and clearly goes against the LEGO fair play policy concerning use of their logo.

[Itaria No Shintaku]

7 minutes ago, MAB said:

I know it is a fine line,
[cut]

This works pretty well until someone at TLG closes an eye.
Think about it. As soon as TLG bought bricklink, what was the first thing they removed?
Third-party stuff.
And the second one? 
Custom printed/chromed parts.

So TLG is not really fond of this kind of items and I don't feel any exaggeration stating that if this was too much on Eurobricks, it would risk losing the status of RLOC.

I believe that at the present moment, TLG tolerates this, but with a vigilant eye. Maybe some of the members do not care about the RLOC status. I do. And I do whatever I think is legit (discussing peacefully) to prevent any possible countermeasure.

 

[MAB]

I imagine the big one is the confidentiality and leaks policy. I doubt showing the LEGO logo in fan art is that big a deal (since it appears on every box opening youtube video and similar). Same with historical parts such as sails. I doubt they care too much if people create their own when it is not in direct competition with current products. Personally I think that extends to third party parts where they are enhancing the experience and not taking away from LEGO products. If this became a LEGO owned site then no doubt they'd remove all trace of third party parts just like they did on bricklink, but then they'd also need to lock down any MOC designs that impinge on third party IP too. But then I cannot see it being LEGO owned. What makes it great is that it is not LEGO owned, and has enough freedom that you can discuss things that LEGO would not make. Bricklink had a tiny fraction of a percentage that was sold that was not genuine LEGO, so implementing LEGO only rules was not that big a deal there. Removing download links for IP based MOCs from BL stud.io / gallery was not a huge deal. Whereas here, it would take them years to remove all the non-LEGO creative hacks that they would not allow, MOCs based on third party IP with links to instructions, and so on. And it would just come across as LEGO bullying the community, trying to change it by buying it. That part of the community would just leave and exist elsewhere.

As to the status, I don't care whether LEGO recognises Eurobricks or not. They seem to have lost the products being sent for review and also lost the prizes for giveaways (like the Christmas raffle), so as a user it doesn't affect me that much - they have already lost them so I don't get the chance to read release day reviews but I can read them elsewhere and I don't get the chance to win a few minifigs in a raffle. Of course, the site creators do seem to want to keep RLOC status (maybe there are some other perks we don't see or need to know) and so it is important that we don't break the rules over leaks and similar, and I can understand users getting banned if they continually post images when they shouldn't.

[Itaria No Shintaku]

8 minutes ago, MAB said:

As to the status, I don't care whether LEGO recognises Eurobricks or not. They seem to have lost the products being sent for review and also lost the prizes for giveaways (like the Christmas raffle), so as a user it doesn't affect me that much - they have already lost them so I don't get the chance to read release day reviews but I can read them elsewhere and I don't get the chance to win a few minifigs in a raffle. Of course, the site creators do seem to want to keep RLOC status (maybe there are some other perks we don't see or need to know) and so it is important that we don't break the rules over leaks and similar, and I can understand users getting banned if they continually post images when they shouldn't.

Well you don't care, I do (there are reasons why) and since it's crystal clear that TLG doesn't like third party stuff or customized items, I just remember this to the users when I can.
Then, my job is over. On my behalf, I'd not speak about non-LEGO stuff on a LEGO forum, but that's freedom.

[jodawill]

2 hours ago, Itaria No Shintaku said:

Well you don't care, I do (there are reasons why) and since it's crystal clear that TLG doesn't like third party stuff or customized items, I just remember this to the users when I can.
Then, my job is over. On my behalf, I'd not speak about non-LEGO stuff on a LEGO forum, but that's freedom.

Dude, no one is losing RLOC status because someone posts a link to a Beyond the Brick video that depicts some third party accessories. You're just being really obnoxious, and you ought to cut it out.

[MAB]

3 hours ago, Itaria No Shintaku said:

Well you don't care, I do (there are reasons why) and since it's crystal clear that TLG doesn't like third party stuff or customized items, I just remember this to the users when I can.
Then, my job is over. On my behalf, I'd not speak about non-LEGO stuff on a LEGO forum, but that's freedom.

Yet the LEGO group doesn't own the site, or gets to direct the conversations that people have here. If people enjoy enhancing their LEGO play with custom swords or custom radius train tracks or decide to cut their own ship sails from cloth or paper, or they use non-LEGO branded lights to light a MOC then I don't see a problem with it. If they are discussing buying a complete knock-off of a LEGO set because it is cheaper than buying the real thing, I can understand removing it. But a LEGO minifigure holding a non-lego weapon is not that big a deal.

If LEGO want to run and moderate a mainly MOC-based fan forum site where only LEGO can be discussed, then they can start one or buy an existing one and impose whatever rules they like. I doubt it would be a very interesting site to visit though, once sanitised by LEGO. I think the moderators here do a decent job of allowing discussion around the hobby involving creative customisation without allowing discussion of the like-for-like ripoffs.

 

[Gorilla94]

On 10/27/2022 at 3:57 PM, Itaria No Shintaku said:

Why just limiting with helmets, shield printings and so on? That would not make sense.

My simple approach is that I want the best result so people smile when they stand in front of the display. My projects are allways small enough so money is no issue. Some of my figures are a mixture of original pieces with quite some value for collectors and other pieces that are simply better... some are custom printed original Lego, some from small customisers, some from chinese figures... What I care about is quality. If Lego has the best product, I'll buy that. If not, I'll choose alternatives. I was dumb enough to buy more than 3 times the amount of "dark green" bricks I needed for a project until I was able take those which have at least a similar colour. That was a terrible experience. In the future I will buy chinese dark green bricks for my projects. Not because of the price, but because they are able to produce all their dark green bricks in one shade of green. I am in fact sad that Lego pretty much forces me to do it.

[Itaria No Shintaku]

On 10/31/2022 at 3:25 PM, jodawill said:

Dude, no one is losing RLOC status because someone posts a link to a Beyond the Brick video that depicts some third party accessories. You're just being really obnoxious, and you ought to cut it out.

You won't simply understand that allowing one, or all, is the very same.
My point is proven because in this very topic there was supporting of illegal copyright-infringing minifigures.
Usually being right makes one seen very obnoxious.

14 hours ago, Gorilla94 said:

My simple approach is that I want the best result so people smile when they stand in front of the display. My projects are allways small enough so money is no issue. Some of my figures are a mixture of original pieces with quite some value for collectors and other pieces that are simply better... some are custom printed original Lego, some from small customisers, some from chinese figures... What I care about is quality. If Lego has the best product, I'll buy that. If not, I'll choose alternatives. I was dumb enough to buy more than 3 times the amount of "dark green" bricks I needed for a project until I was able take those which have at least a similar colour. That was a terrible experience. In the future I will buy chinese dark green bricks for my projects. Not because of the price, but because they are able to produce all their dark green bricks in one shade of green. I am in fact sad that Lego pretty much forces me to do it.

Chinese figures are a theft of a Intellectual Property. 
You should not support thievery.

On 10/31/2022 at 4:03 PM, MAB said:

If LEGO want to run and moderate a mainly MOC-based fan forum site where only LEGO can be discussed, then they can start one

That's not the point
The point is there is no one forcing TLG to allow things like tours, lugbulks, free sets two times per year, like it happens on EB.
So if EB wants this, it will be their moderators' job to stop people from exaggerating (in this very topic @Gorilla94 said with some impunity that he buys chinese minifigures, so he indirectly endorses IP thievery). Surely one simple thing is not a problem. More and more will surely be. It will be the mods' job to decide when it's over.
They have the difficult job to stand between having many members (being somewhat lenient because people would flee from a strict and severe forum) and keep staying as a RLOC, (not allowing all members to stand against TLG or easily admit they're buying counterfeits figures)
EB board has indeed privileges. Every person with a minimal knowledge on how RLOCs work knows this, it's no secret.
So TLG will grant privileges as long as they are not pissed off. And the fast removing of third party, printed stuff, chromed stuff on bricklink before resolving some major known issues shows with no secound thoughts what TLG thinks about the matter.

Edited November 1, 2022 by Itaria No Shintaku

[Sir Dano]

If Lego doesn't want me buying bootlegs then they should start producing the pieces again.

[Shroffy123]

11 minutes ago, Sir Dano said:

If Lego doesn't want me buying bootlegs then they should start producing the pieces again.

Agreed 100% 

 

There is a market for castle related themes. A strong market imo. If Lego isn't going to cater to that market by not producing a castle theme in over 10 years, someone else will. 

 

 

Edited November 1, 2022 by Shroffy123

[Gorilla94]

In most cases it is just being obnoxious that makes people look obnoxious...

I have serious doubts that people making huge Mocs that are only possible thanks to a few third party/modified pieces (Like Gondor Mocs) with tons of bought Lego bricks inspirering other builders are less valuable to Lego than someone who praises purism hoping for discounts and free sets... should we also remove the possibility to give an average rating or worse in reviews?

Edited November 1, 2022 by Gorilla94

[Yperio_Bricks]

52 minutes ago, Sir Dano said:

If Lego doesn't want me buying bootlegs then they should start producing the pieces again.

Exactly!

43 minutes ago, Shroffy123 said:

There is a market for castle related themes. A strong market imo. If Lego isn't going to cater to that market by not producing a castle theme in over 10 years, someone else will.

Agreed! But it's not only Castle, it's Pirates too, Trains,...

4 minutes ago, Gorilla94 said:

In most cases it is just being obnoxious that makes people look obnoxious...

I have serious doubts that people making huge Mocs that are only possible thanks to a few third party/modified pieces (Like Gondor Mocs) with tons of bought Lego bricks inspirering other builders are less valuable to Lego than someone who praises purism hoping for discounts and free sets... 

 

I agree and want to add that the sets are not free at all! We all pay for it!

[MAB]

1 hour ago, Shroffy123 said:

Agreed 100% 

 

There is a market for castle related themes. A strong market imo. If Lego isn't going to cater to that market by not producing a castle theme in over 10 years, someone else will. 

 

 

It may also be that the third party accessories like Spartan and Roman shields, swords and helmets from brickforge and brickwarriors are what convinced LEGO to make their own versions.

[Itaria No Shintaku]

3 hours ago, Sir Dano said:

If Lego doesn't want me buying bootlegs then they should start producing the pieces again.

and all that followed.

There is a very severe grade of wrongness in this concept. For all of you. I'm very sorry.

This is just as stating as "my need (caprice) for LEGO minifigures is stronger than my willingness to respect laws".

Point 1: These are not medicines. These are something to be played with. So, a hobby. I would to a certain extent understand things like stealing for hunger, or medicines. But committing a crime? (buying illegal stuff IS a crime, in fact, your minifigures can be blocked by a customs office and you lose both the minifigure and the money).
Point 2: Of course, the guy that comes and says "hey guys, what you do is illegal " is seen as obnoxious. Every person reminding others that something is wrong risks being one.

Basically, for any person buying knockoffs "because they are cheaper" congratulations. You just are using your wallet instead of your brain. 
I hope you would not protest if your boss would fire you and hired a guy from any third-world country to do your same job, worse than you, but requiring 1/10 of your monthly wage.
Because that is. You're buying stuff that cost less only because
1) There's LEGO behind them to pay for all the commercials, packaging, branding, and so on.
2) They do not need to pass toxicity controls or quality controls. Who cares? They're illegal products. 
(For the less informed, for example in Europe every single toy must have the CE (Conformité Europeenne) mark. The Chinese have the CE (China Export) which is, guess what, a ripoff of the European mark)

(basically, if you give these toys to your children, you're giving them toys that have NO conformity to the high European standards against toxic paintings and so on)

If you add to these "toys" all the branding/commercials/copyrights/packaging/R&D that TLG does on these thieves' behalf and all the quality controls, guess what? They would cost MORE than actual minifigures. Of course these rascals can produce Gondor minifigures. They don't give a damn about paying the commercial copyrights.

So, in the end, there are no real reasons (saying "but LEGO doesn't produce this" is a lame excuse ) for buying illegal and potentially dangerous stuff.
Buying this is just being shortsighted, using your wallet instead of your brains, 

You want to hate me because I'm slamming the mere truth in your face? Be my guests.

As long as LEGO has a valid patent on the minifigures, either you don't buy knockoffs, or you are aware that you're buying illegal stuff.
As long as chinese minifigures do not want to undergo quality and toxicity controls, either you don't buy knockoffs, or you are aware that you're buying illegal stuff.
As long as chinese producers create minifigures of Marvel, DC, Star Wars, LotR characters without caring about paying copyrights, either you don't buy knockoffs, or you are aware that you're buying illegal stuff.

Every time I have to make this speech again, I hope it to be the last time, still I find everywhere in the world people who really are so blind that they would never pickpocket, but they would easily buy illegal stuff from internet, without having the glimpse to understand it's basically the same thing.

PS: I am very very sorry if I was too harsh on this one topic. But slamming on my face "hey! I do Illegal stuff and I think I'm right" it's one of the topics I really get angry about. Everybody has their ones. I think that there is basically no difference between disrespecting the laws and disrespecting others. Same stuff. So maybe to you it's "Hey I'm just buying stuff that LEGO doesn't produce" and to me (and to many others) is "Hey I don't give a damn about laws and respect, I just want to be happy and I don't care about others or consequences" and that will always drive me nuts.

Edited November 1, 2022 by Itaria No Shintaku

[Sir Dano]

You're right, I don't give a damn. It's my right to take my business elsewhere when a company doesn't provide a service or product I desire to own.

Edited November 1, 2022 by Sir Dano

[Itaria No Shintaku]

16 minutes ago, Sir Dano said:

You're right, I don't give a damn. It's my right to take my business elsewhere when a company doesn't provide a service or product I desire to own.

You are entitled to use your money the way you want, unless this is illegal.
In this case, it is. 
In fact, "a drug" may be a product you desire to own, still that doesn't make you entitled to own it legally.

Plus, you damage other people. A lot of. But of course, selfish arrogant people would reply "I don't give a damn".

EDIT - This topic has strongly derouted and it has become something that may harm the forum, so I've asked a mod to intervene and decide what to do.
I will not accept any more provoking on this topic until a mod takes a decision.

Edited November 1, 2022 by Itaria No Shintaku

[Clone OPatra]

This topic started off with interesting subject matter and totally derailed.

Yes, Eurobricks has always been fine with discussion of third-party produced parts that are made in good faith to enhance LEGO.

We are not cool with bootleg parts that copy LEGO's designs and have shut down such discussions in the past.

No one need discuss or speculate Eurobricks' obligations when it comes to our RLOC status. EB's staff and ambassador know what our obligations are. (And for those paying attention, we do still get a support package which we are trying our best to use as contest prizes for the benefit of our EB community).

If people would like to get back to actually discussing what it's like without castle themes, maybe we can give this topic one more chance before we have to lock it.

[Gorilla94]

@Itaria No Shintaku I made sure every transaction was perfectly legal in my country. In fact it would be illegal calling someone a criminal just like that ;)

I guess we should get back to topic. This "discussion" won't lead anywhere.

[Itaria No Shintaku]

7 hours ago, Gorilla94 said:

@Itaria No Shintaku I made sure every transaction was perfectly legal in my country. In fact it would be illegal calling someone a criminal just like that ;)

I guess we should get back to topic. This "discussion" won't lead anywhere.

No to everything. A copyright is a copyright. I won't go any further on this publicly. If you want to keep ignoring the mod requests pm me.