Are classic themes dead ?

[Khargeust]

Are classic themes dead ? I would like to know your opinion on the matter.

By classic themes, I mean Space, Castle, Pirates but also Adventurers, Western, Aquazone, etc. and their respective subthemes of course.

In fact, LEGO hasn't offered full ranges from the classic themes for many years, although this has been the broadcast format for several decades.

However, the classic themes survive through either the Creator 3 in 1 range or large, expensive sets in the Icons range and alikes. But each time, they are isolated and individual outputs, like one-shot sets.

Do you think this format and commercial strategy by LEGO will last and therefore we may see the episodic return of classic themes exclusively in this form on the occasion of brand anniversary for example ? Or on the contrary, will we see new sub-themes emerge again with their different sets covering a wide price range ? Can it be both at the same time ? What are your thoughts ?

Finally, here is an interesting video to illustrate my questioning :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPFh4oCQk-c

Edited April 12, 2023 by Khargeust

[MAB]

Yes, they are dead. Even if they come back, they will be different to the original Classic themes as there are different parts and colours these days.

[Alexandrina]

I'm not sure some of the themes you listed - especially Aquazone and Western - can be considered 'classic' themes. Neither had much longevity at all.

As for things like Space, Castle, Pirates, I'd imagine they're on hiatus rather than dead. These are broad themes based on staple concepts - when pirates are in vogue with kids again, Lego will bring the theme back. When knights are in vogue, they'll bring Castle back.

[TeriXeri]

1 hour ago, Alexandrina said:

I'm not sure some of the themes you listed - especially Aquazone and Western - can be considered 'classic' themes. Neither had much longevity at all.

I think it all depends how that longevity is seen, while Space, Castle, Pirates are generally easily grouped on websites, other themes are not.

Aquazone itself didn't last that long, it still got a bunch of spinoffs like Alpha Team (Mission Deep Sea) , Aqua Raiders and Atlantis that generally follow the same concepts.

 

But as for the last 10 years or so, generally there have not been much Classic themes in the format they used to be, after 2013 Castle , Galaxy Squad, and 2015 Pirates, things generally shifted to  LEGO Movies, or more recently IDEAS/Icons , and some via 3-in-1.

The concept of normal in-house themes certainly isn't dead however, as recent examples like Nexo, Hidden Side, Monkie Kid, and soon Dreamzzz still have a wide range of size products.

Edited April 13, 2023 by TeriXeri

[Mister Phes]

8 hours ago, Khargeust said:

By classic themes, I mean Space, Castle, Pirates

These particular themes are not completely "dead" because the LEGO Group continues to release new sets, just not in waves.

They've just focused their business model differently to be accommodate the demand.

Waves of sets on retail store shelves are intended for children while exclusive or individual set releases are aimed at AFOLs...  who are less than 1% of the market share.

[Justin]

Ever since LEGO started licensing Star Wars and Harry Potter building sets, they ended up opening Pandora's box, and since that day, licenses for other properties (Disney, Nickelodeon, Marvel Comics, DC Comics, Nintendo, etc.) started taking up valuable shelf space in the LEGO aisle of every discount store, hobby store and toy store...

[Mylenium]

16 hours ago, Khargeust said:

Or on the contrary, will we see new sub-themes emerge again with their different sets covering a wide price range ?

Nope. It's 2023, not 1984. I could elaborate on this endlessly, but that could end up offending too many people. Classic Knights, Western or whatever ain't coming back and that is that.

 

Mylenium

[Feuer Zug]

The "Classic" themes are still here. They aren't the same as back then, but still around. Look at the Creator pirate ship and castle or the vast line of City space offerings. Those are the offspring of the classics.

[Artanis I]

Everybody. Is. Dead. Dave.
- Holly (Red Dwarf ship computer - IQ of 6000 PE teachers)

Castle: dead. Space: dead. Pirates: dead. Western: very dead. Plain ninjas: dead. Aquazone etc: dead. Monorails: dead. Plain smiley with simple torso print and nothing else: dead. Sets made of plates & bricks: dead. If you want any more, you have to make your own.

.

People will try to say (in fact TLG often does say) they aren't dead because a one-off aimed at adults is released or such, but no-one is falling for that garbage. They are dead. And not "mostly dead". The classic/vintage Lego stuff is dead. Anything we get that resembles that 'good ol' stuff' is a rare miracle, so be grateful, but don't kid yourself!

[MAB]

12 hours ago, Justin said:

Ever since LEGO started licensing Star Wars and Harry Potter building sets, they ended up opening Pandora's box, and since that day, licenses for other properties (Disney, Nickelodeon, Marvel Comics, DC Comics, Nintendo, etc.) started taking up valuable shelf space in the LEGO aisle of every discount store, hobby store and toy store...

They also made her box much larger though.

[Ondra]

These themes are dead, and throwing once a while Icons sets that only afols can afford is only nostalgia bait.

Maybe its good that lego insist on licensed properties, because many inhouse themes from modern days were huge flops.

 

I only hope that there will be Bionicle tribute set like figure of Mata Nui off course brickbuild, and I can put to rest my childhood lego dreams.

[Khargeust]

20 hours ago, MAB said:

Yes, they are dead. Even if they come back, they will be different to the original Classic themes as there are different parts and colours these days.

An exact return to what was done in the past is neither possible nor desirable. But potential new sets could be faithful to the original spirit as many sub-themes have managed to be, I'm thinking for example of Kingdoms which is the penultimate sub-theme of Castle and which in my opinion is one of the best of them. While being modern when it was released, it was able to ensure perfect continuity with the quality of the first steps of the theme.

The 90-year anniversary sets do indeed have many new pieces but respect a certain simple aesthetic code specific to the classic era of the themes from which they come. It's a good compromise I think.

 

19 hours ago, Alexandrina said:

I'm not sure some of the themes you listed - especially Aquazone and Western - can be considered 'classic' themes. Neither had much longevity at all.

As for things like Space, Castle, Pirates, I'd imagine they're on hiatus rather than dead. These are broad themes based on staple concepts - when pirates are in vogue with kids again, Lego will bring the theme back. When knights are in vogue, they'll bring Castle back.

I feel Aquazone is classic because of its longevity through a variety of subthemes and Western is classic because of its own concept that goes beyond LEGO (ephemeral longevity but a timeless subject).

What do you mean "when pirates are in vogue with kids again" ? Do you really think that children don't like this kind of theme anymore ? Could it really be just a trend ? I rather have the impression that these themes are timeless, but that LEGO gradually favored their licensed version because there was more money to be made.

 

17 hours ago, TeriXeri said:

I think it all depends how that longevity is seen, while Space, Castle, Pirates are generally easily grouped on websites, other themes are not.

Aquazone itself didn't last that long, it still got a bunch of spinoffs like Alpha Team (Mission Deep Sea) , Aqua Raiders and Atlantis that generally follow the same concepts.

 

But as for the last 10 years or so, generally there have not been much Classic themes in the format they used to be, after 2013 Castle , Galaxy Squad, and 2015 Pirates, things generally shifted to  LEGO Movies, or more recently IDEAS/Icons , and some via 3-in-1.

The concept of normal in-house themes certainly isn't dead however, as recent examples like Nexo, Hidden Side, Monkie Kid, and soon Dreamzzz still have a wide range of size products.

You're right ! But why not bring those classic themes back again ? What is the real obstacle ?

 

16 hours ago, Mister Phes said:

Waves of sets on retail store shelves are intended for children while exclusive or individual set releases are aimed at AFOLs...  who are less than 1% of the market share.

Are you really sure of this percentage, I had read that it was more like 20%.

 

15 hours ago, Justin said:

Ever since LEGO started licensing Star Wars and Harry Potter building sets, they ended up opening Pandora's box, and since that day, licenses for other properties (Disney, Nickelodeon, Marvel Comics, DC Comics, Nintendo, etc.) started taking up valuable shelf space in the LEGO aisle of every discount store, hobby store and toy store...

You are so unfortunately right...

 

8 hours ago, Mylenium said:

Nope. It's 2023, not 1984. I could elaborate on this endlessly, but that could end up offending too many people. Classic Knights, Western or whatever ain't coming back and that is that.

 

Feel free to argue. I am personally open-minded and ready to hear everything ! 

 

5 hours ago, Artanis I said:

Everybody. Is. Dead. Dave.
- Holly (Red Dwarf ship computer - IQ of 6000 PE teachers)

Castle: dead. Space: dead. Pirates: dead. Western: very dead. Plain ninjas: dead. Aquazone etc: dead. Monorails: dead. Plain smiley with simple torso print and nothing else: dead. Sets made of plates & bricks: dead. If you want any more, you have to make your own.

.

People will try to say (in fact TLG often does say) they aren't dead because a one-off aimed at adults is released or such, but no-one is falling for that garbage. They are dead. And not "mostly dead". The classic/vintage Lego stuff is dead. Anything we get that resembles that 'good ol' stuff' is a rare miracle, so be grateful, but don't kid yourself!

Your post made me laugh ! Yes, this series of sets (21322, 40567,10305, 10497, and soon the Eldorado Fortress) is a miracle and I am grateful to live at the same time as all these releases ! I'm not lying to myself and I know that LEGO's strategy has changed, however I seriously question the future of classic themes and remain hopeful. I find it both exciting and terrifying to imagine what will become of it.

 

5 minutes ago, Ondra said:

Maybe its good that lego insist on licensed properties, because many inhouse themes from modern days were huge flops.

But how can we seriously know if certain sets were flops since we have no official figures or press releases. I sincerely ask the question. Maybe LEGO just went all out on licensing for pure profit and that's it.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Khargeust

[Ondra]

Nobody is buying vidiyo or hidden side even on huge clearance . I can even buy some sets brand new from Lego movie 2. All these in absurd amount of copies here.

Dreamzzz will be next, they never learn...

[Alexandrina]

2 hours ago, Khargeust said:

What do you mean "when pirates are in vogue with kids again" ? Do you really think that children don't like this kind of theme anymore ? Could it really be just a trend ?

I don't know what the kids are playing with at the moment, as I'm about a decade out of school with no siblings or children of my own, but things like pirates and cowboys don't seem to be common subjects for kids' movies or TV at the moment (I might be wrong on this). Things come and go and always have. When I was in primary school, there was a big craze for robots, which coincided with Bionicle's peak. We rarely played pirates on the other hand.

See western. That's very much tied to the popularity of the genre at the cinema; my school days were in a lull when western movies basically didn't exis tin the mainstream, and I can honestly say I don't remember anyone at school ever playing cowboys. A few decades earlier, it was such a common game for children that the most famous public safety film in British history is structured around a game of cowboys.

2 hours ago, Ondra said:

Nobody is buying vidiyo or hidden side even on huge clearance

Where are you that these sets are still on the shelves? I'd love to pick up a few more Hidden Side/Vidiyo sets but I haven't seen either for sale in years.

[Peppermint_M]

As curator for some those themes mentioned: I wouldn't say the themes are classic, more the concepts are classic. Submarine adventures and Treasure hunting archaeologists have appeared a few times in recent years. We are getting some Indiana Jones sets, Johnny Thunder was not exactly a copy but he was certainly close to Henry Jones Jr. (Sprung from the same source is the most polite way to put it), so the concept is there. The same with the City Jungle sets; ruins and treasure to find with some hardy and well equipped people to seek them out? Conceptually similar. 

As Ondra (sort of) said, truly original ideas are not hitting the mark like Ninjago managed to, but Hidden Side lasted as long as any smaller theme did in the past. 

It is a weird one. 

[Karalora]

1 hour ago, Alexandrina said:

I don't know what the kids are playing with at the moment, as I'm about a decade out of school with no siblings or children of my own, but things like pirates and cowboys don't seem to be common subjects for kids' movies or TV at the moment (I might be wrong on this). Things come and go and always have. When I was in primary school, there was a big craze for robots, which coincided with Bionicle's peak. We rarely played pirates on the other hand.

In my experience, kids these days almost never play "pirates" or "cowboys" or even--to take something you'd think would be extremely popular right now--"superheroes." What they play is <Name of Currently Popular Franchise Within The Genre In Question>. For superheroes, that would be either MCU/Avengers or Justice League. It's all about emulating specific characters and stories that they know from movies and TV shows. There aren't currently any popular ongoing franchises in the pirate or western genres, so kids don't tend to play in those genres.

[Alexandrina]

4 minutes ago, Peppermint_M said:

Hidden Side lasted as long as any smaller theme did in the past. 

I even think some of the old themes are baked into Lego lore so to speak, and their legacy is oversized in common perception compared to what it actually was. I know I was a kid who spent a lot of time in my room looking on Bricklink and Peeron at all the sets I wished I had, and themes like Western, Aquazone, Time Cruisers or Alpha Team had already run their course and were listed there on those databases with the real heavy hitters. The sets have been a thing for as long as I've been into Lego, and yes they were long discontinued, but most of the then-current sets were things I'd never get a chance to own so there was no difference in my mind. Fort Legoredo and Café Corner both looked cool, and I was never going to be in the same room as either, so what did I care whether either set was still coming out of the factory?

On the contrary newer themes didn't predate my Lego love; I remember a time before them, and I'm well aware of how short lived their run was. When you're around and paying attention to Lego from the moment a theme hits the shelves to the moment it vanishes, you're more acutely aware of just how long (or not) it was around. This is an AFOL forum so it skews towards people whose exposure to Lego predates things like Hidden Side. I'd be very curious to know whether people being born now, once they blossom into AFOLs themselves, see Hidden Side as something just as enduring as Aquazone was.

[Toastie]

4 hours ago, Ondra said:

they never learn...

https://www.lego.com/en-us/aboutus/news/2023/march/2022-annual-results

They do. They do, for sure. Because of us buying their stuff - like crazy.
 

While (revenue > than_ever_expected) { 
   Sell boxes at >totally overpriced< retail price;  //These are for the crazies wanting it all - at initial date of release. 
                                                     //There is quite a big number, I believe.
}  
                                                                                     
if (revenue == what_to_be_expected) { 
  Sell boxes >on sale<;                              //Price adjusted for the less crazy. These folks will buy and feel absolutely fortunate.
                                                     //And do that by the masses.
}  

if (revenue < what_to_be_expected_in_wildest_dreams) {
  announce end of life;                              //Again, folks will go crazy
}

And simply loop this over and over again.

It is us - not them. They learned.

Best,
Thorsten

[Ondra]

6 hours ago, Alexandrina said:

I don't know what the kids are playing with at the moment, as I'm about a decade out of school with no siblings or children of my own, but things like pirates and cowboys don't seem to be common subjects for kids' movies or TV at the moment (I might be wrong on this). Things come and go and always have. When I was in primary school, there was a big craze for robots, which coincided with Bionicle's peak. We rarely played pirates on the other hand.

See western. That's very much tied to the popularity of the genre at the cinema; my school days were in a lull when western movies basically didn't exis tin the mainstream, and I can honestly say I don't remember anyone at school ever playing cowboys. A few decades earlier, it was such a common game for children that the most famous public safety film in British history is structured around a game of cowboys.

Where are you that these sets are still on the shelves? I'd love to pick up a few more Hidden Side/Vidiyo sets but I haven't seen either for sale in years.

Check Czech republic online stores maybe even Poland one. They are even giving vidiyo blind boxes as gift for purchase, nobody is buying it.

[Mister Phes]

13 hours ago, Khargeust said:

Are you really sure of this percentage, I had read that it was more like 20%. 

No, I'm not.

Where did you read it was more like 20%?

[Mylenium]

15 hours ago, Khargeust said:

But how can we seriously know if certain sets were flops since we have no official figures or press releases. I sincerely ask the question.

You can easily do the math with a bit of research outside the LEGO bubble. An industrial designer takes x amount of money to design the outsides of a fancy coffee machine. An illustrator takes x amount for a single image or page in a comic. A marketing agency takes x amount to write texts and do photos. I as a 3D and graphics artist take x amount per day for some shiny CG pictures. An OEM manufacturer takes x amount to build molds and produce a few thousand pieces of plastic if you want him to. You could continue this quite a bit, but at the end of the day it's not rocket science. You just have to invest the time to do the research. A theme like VIDIYO that had tons of new molds and graphical elements cost them easily at least 300 million. That's a minimum of 20 million development cost and the rest is actual production, manufacturing and distribution. Even if you spread it out across multiple years and consider that LEGO makes billions every year that's not chump change, given that you need to consider that at the same time they have cost on other themes to keep them running. You could repeat this for every theme and then you see how those numbers in their annual reports begin to make sense. And when you see that in 2021 VIDIYO wasn't even listed separately in those reports as a stand-out theme, you know how hard it fell on its face. Combined with anecdotal observations of full shelves, sets being still available BNIB en mass two years after cancellation and the insane discounts this stuff was/ is sold for you can only conclude that it was a total stinker.

Mylenium

[TeriXeri]

12 hours ago, Peppermint_M said:

As curator for some those themes mentioned: I wouldn't say the themes are classic, more the concepts are classic. Submarine adventures and Treasure hunting archaeologists have appeared a few times in recent years.

Very True.

City, Friends, 3-in-1, and Monkie Kid, and even Seabound Ninjago pretty much had some underwater related sets on shelves at the same time, and even the Hidden Side mini-sub set could still be found after it retired.

And Avatar also had a wave of sets dedicated to the sea/coral reefs,, etc, the concept of submarine exploration certainly still has been quite common, also there's more sea/undersea exploration sets rumoured for summer 2023 for both City and Friends again.

I'm not saying those are replacements for Aquazone, but it's one of those concepts that's quite common at this right moment.

But all those themes/sets had things in common where they explore underwater to find ruins/artifacts of some kind.

Edited April 14, 2023 by TeriXeri

[The Island Chronicles]

Unfortunately for people who want them back, there is a simple answer to the question that was asked up in the title; YES! Despite the fact that Lego has been granting our wishes recently; as I have personally seen a lot of in the 2022 with City. But unfortunately, pirates, space and castle will remain as such; wishes. They're never coming back! I'm sorry to be the bearer of the bad news (I'm just a blunt person), but that's just how it is. As far as those themes are concerned, Lego has Pirates of the Carribean, Lord of the Rings/Harry Potter and Star Wars. Lego has has the space subtheme for City. You can always shop for those sets on eBay or buy the $400 USD knights castle that's currently in stores. 

[danth]

On 4/12/2023 at 9:24 AM, Khargeust said:

Are classic themes dead ? I would like to know your opinion on the matter.

By classic themes, I mean Space, Castle, Pirates but also Adventurers, Western, Aquazone, etc. and their respective subthemes of course.

Almost all non-licensed minifig themes are dead.

City will exist, if only because there is no "real life" mega blockbuster movie series to license. Unless Lego can get a Fast & Furious license or something.

The only non-licensed minifig themes (where "theme" means a line of related sets with the same setting and characters/factions at various price points) that existed in 2022 besides City were Ninjago and Monkie Kid.

So, 3 non-licensed minifig themes. (No, you can't count Creator because it's not a "theme" in the sense that the sets are related. Same with Icons or whatever they call it now.)

That's the same as it was in 1978. Up until we got, what, Pirates, which put Lego at 4 themes concurrently? Not sure what the peak was, but in '96 there was also Aquazone, Time Cruisers, and Western for a total of 7 concurrent non-licensed minifig themes.

What other non-licensed themes have we seen recently? Chima and Nexo, which were probably created just in case Ninjago sales stalled which they didn't, and Hidden Side and Vidiyo, where were vehicles to push AR/App integration.

I think Lego is basically done with non-licensed themes, other than Ninjago (or its replacement), and Monkie Kid for China, and one AR/App pushing theme, which I predict Dreamzzz will be.

Edited April 14, 2023 by danth

[The Island Chronicles]

3 minutes ago, danth said:

City will exist, if only because there is no "real life" mega blockbuster movie series to license. 

Or the Chicago series. 

4 minutes ago, danth said:

Unless Lego can get a Fast & Furious license or something.

Don't they already have that? Only they do it under Speed Champions.