LEGO #21344 - Orient Express

[CDM]

11 minutes ago, samsz_3 said:

Orient Express Lengthened by Sam Szeto, on Flickr

Did a very quick edit of lengthening the locomotive and moving the cylinders down. I think I will mod mine to be like this. 

Extending the wheelbase is simple, and will be fine on R40 if you change it to flange, flange, blind. Extending the pony truck, should be simple enough, however to bring the cylinders down will require making the pony truck articulate as well - so I can understand why that was not done on the official set.

I like what you did here...well done and agreed on all counts. Lowering the cylinders makes all the difference. Here's hoping the existing base can accommodate a lengthening of 3-4 studs.

[samsz_3]

Just now, RedBrick1 said:

There it is! This makes the locomotive 'fit' well in my head. I'll likely do this as well, along with adding smoke deflectors. I do wonder if it is worth changing out the drive wheels to larger aftermarket options?

Exactly! Takes some of the "toy train" proportions away from it. I think adding a stud between the wheels, and two studs to the pony truck should be a minimum. If you change to XL wheels, you would probably want more to keep things "in scale".

Speaking of which, ^ agree with comments above - I can't find very good information on Orient Express locomotives. If anything that does work to LEGO's benefit - it doesn't have to be based on a specific prototype. The Emerald Night was only loosely based on the LNER A3. The Maersk train was only loosely based on an EMD SD40-2.

This set had to appeal to:

• General AFOLs looking to display a set
  • Therefore it will need it to look good on display
• AFOLs with a LEGO City
  • Must fit on standard L gauge track 
  • Therefore the locomotive must go around R40 curves (unlike submission)
  • Therefore must be no wider than 8 wide
• Those who recognise the Orient Express through pop culture (e.g. Agatha Christie)
  • Must have be big enough to have an interior
  • Therefore must be at least 8 wide
• Kids (just because it's aimed at adults, doesn't mean kids can't unwrap it on Xmas day...)
  • Must be solid enough to be built and handled by older kids
  • Therefore no finnicky/flimsy/illegal building techniques (unlike most MOC trains)
• Original Ideas designer:
  • Be faithful to the original Idea
• Train fans:
  • Absolutely must be a perfect scale recreation of the real thing ;)

With all these requirements in mind, I think the choice to focus on the coaches was the right idea, so people can "re-enact the Orient Express", bear in mind it is a whole train, not just a locomotive. To make this possible at had to be 8 wide. This drives the length of the coaches to keep them in scale. Set budget than will limit how big the locomotive can be. The idea (haha) of the set is good, I just do wish the execution of the locomotive was better. Extending the loco by 4-8 studs could definitely have helped balance the visuals of the thing.

[LordsofMedieval]

15 minutes ago, Shiva said:

LordsofMedieval. What I read, about the steam locomotives for the Orient Express, is that every country, used their own locomotives. So it was never? the same steam locomotive all the way.

Yes they did. I am certain that none of them looked like this because, outside narrow gauge, I've never seen a steam engine that looks like this (its proportions remind me way too much of a fireless cooker):

 

[Space78]

I don't know if Lego designed the locomotive smaller for cost purposes or if they made it smaller to run on Lego track, I think it's unclear.  The best train "models" are well balanced between motive power and rolling stock.  In the catalog image, the whole thing just doesn't look right from a train perspective.  It includes two coaches of significant length compared to the engine.  In the Lego world we imagine we are pulling more cars when we run the train, but honestly that engine looks more like a switch engine than one that could make a transcontinental trip pulling a string of coaches.  It's a 4-6-0 configuration.  In my book it's definitely missing a trailing wheel/truck.  They could have gone with a 2-6-2 configuration or 2-6-4, and it would probably have looked more balanced and like it could pull a long string of cars.  I don't think they needed to do a x-8-x configuration - that would only be possible if the wheel diameter were really small or if it did no run on Lego track, but pilot and trailing truck on a transcontinental locomotive would see like a given.  However, I'm in the USA, and am not very familiar with European/Asian steam locomotives.

 

Since real train offerings from Lego are pretty scarce, we train fanatics will buy anything on offer, and if we are smart (and can afford it) we buy at least two of whatever is offered (I should have bought two Emerald Night, two Maersk, etc, etc.)  I could see buying two copies of this set ($600, ouch!) to get four coaches and then maybe "MOCing" the engine to something more suitable.  I have no idea if that would work, or if I personally could even attempt such a thing.  I'm not very good at coming up with something completely new, but it's fun to try.  @samsz_3 in your lengthened picture, would that require a whole additional section of the boiler, or are you just lengthening the wheel base?  Are parts readily available in these colors to extend or modify the engine without needing to buy a second set?

[LordsofMedieval]

*Edit* I would suggest 3 changes to this locomotive for modders to make it look more prototypical (or at least help the situation):

1) If there is any free space at the front of the boiler (re: not occupied by a motor), narrow the smoke box (the black part) to either 5x5 or even 4x4. You did occasionally see a stepped-down smoke box (mostly on narrow gauge, but whatever helps), and this will diminish the overall 'giant boiler effect.'

 2) Find a different smoke stack. A tall, 1x1 incorporating some minor flaring at the base and top will similarly 'narrow' the appearance of the engine by making it an overall more vertical vehicle (a chonky spark arrestor could also help, and you saw these a fair amount on Austrian steam from about 1900-1920).

3) Lift the entire engine frame 1-2 plates higher beneath the running board. Even if you aren't going make the wheels larger, allotting more space for the wheels will ease some proportional issues (This will also make the locomotive taller than the cars, which is desirable). If you look at freight locomotives (which, despite being a 4-6-0, we have to pretend it is), their boilers really weren't set any lower than passenger engines, even though the wheels were much smaller.

Yes, lengthening the engine is the overall best plan, but that gets expensive fast. Bricklinking, you could easily drop $75-100 fixing this depending on part count and availability.

Edited October 12, 2023 by LordsofMedieval

[Space78]

Another question, are Ideas sets generally made in smaller numbers than sets in the "regular" themes?  Lately, it seems some ideas sets have gone up in value quite a bit after the set is retired, such as Pirates of Baracuda Bay, and the Fishing Shack to name a couple.

[LordsofMedieval]

7 minutes ago, Space78 said:

Another question, are Ideas sets generally made in smaller numbers than sets in the "regular" themes?  Lately, it seems some ideas sets have gone up in value quite a bit after the set is retired, such as Pirates of Baracuda Bay, and the Fishing Shack to name a couple.

I don't know about the first part, but I get a strong sense that they don't sell nearly as well, outside a few standouts. I have this feeling that Lego has a whole warehouse full of Pianos and Globes.

Some of the things they choose to produce are really bizarre. You have to assume that even AFOLs have limited shelf-space - we can only accumulate so many big objects over the course of a lifetime.

I know I myself have boxes and boxes of sets I 'needed' but will never (and probably can never) build.

Edited October 12, 2023 by LordsofMedieval

[Shiva]

17 minutes ago, LordsofMedieval said:

Yes they did. I am certain that none of them looked like this because, outside narrow gauge, I've never seen a steam engine that looks like this (its proportions remind me way too much of a fireless cooker):

 

Spoiler

 

Whoa, that is a short locomotive!

[Space78]

Some of the Ideas sets have good play value for kids (such as the Pirates and Fishing sets I mentioned), so maybe they are a bit more desirable than say the typewriter?  I was going to get the typewriter, but then they were out of stock for a while and when they came back they raised the price 15%, so I lost interest in something that will live on a shelf.  I am one of those that just doesn't have the space.  The kids already have their favorite sets sitting in their bedrooms!

[LordsofMedieval]

11 minutes ago, Shiva said:

Whoa, that is a short locomotive!

It has no firebox. They're industrial engines filled with pressurized steam at a stationary source (generally a factory boiler), and then work yards until they run low.

Just one other modding option I thought of before falling asleep: to people who are going to buy 2, you could combine the locos into a 2-6-6-2 or 2-6-6-0. This would require a fair amount of work, but Europe did have some articulated locomotives (not in numbers like the U.S., but it did have them).

Edited October 12, 2023 by LordsofMedieval

[Nikonissen]

6 hours ago, Ferro-Friki said:

I was wondering if they would reference the Agatha Christie novel.

I was not expecting them to switch things up and have the engine be the victim instead!

I guess you could call this set Murder OF the Orient Express…

Dude, thanks for the laugh! 💀

[Lyichir]

33 minutes ago, Space78 said:

Another question, are Ideas sets generally made in smaller numbers than sets in the "regular" themes?  Lately, it seems some ideas sets have gone up in value quite a bit after the set is retired, such as Pirates of Baracuda Bay, and the Fishing Shack to name a couple.

I don't know if that's always the case but it definitely was the case in the early days of the Ideas program (with the initial production run of sets smaller than other themes). That may have changed somewhat as the Lego Ideas program has grown and more regular retailers have started stocking them, and even back then, a particularly successful Ideas set could earn itself additional production runs if initial sales were promising.

[ToledoRails]

17 hours ago, mikka says said:

Perhaps M**ld Kings newest release might be more your speed Medieval, apparently it even comes with a circle of R104

...No.

I've cut my teeth on enough of *those* sets to know the quality behind them. You're looking at a set that all thing considered is impressive at the full 10 wide scale, but its performance will be neutered by the remote control that has only one speed. For some reason, that one and the QJ have two motors to power forwards and reverse only, one held on by a differential gear. No space for the wires so you're SOL packing them in, and the coach will be massive for size's sake. It's simply devoid of soul and life, something a homemade MOC or official Lego Set have plenty of.

And yes mine is arriving in the mail today for a head to head review in November.

[CrispyBassist]

1 hour ago, LordsofMedieval said:

Honest question: are people who plan to seriously model the Orient Express (as opposed to just having this set on a shelf, or do loops around a circle of track [which is fine]) satisfied with these cars?

I don't think anyone who plans to seriously model ANY  train is satisfied with the version that comes in a Lego set! But those who do are likely significantly fewer in number than those who would buy a set that is close, but imperfect.

[Kalahari134]

1 hour ago, samsz_3 said:

The Emerald Night was only loosely based on the LNER A3

Understatement of the year. If I saw it for the first time I'd be wondering which DR loco was the prototype.

[ToledoRails]

Loose as it may be, the Emerald Night was still identifiable as a British Gresley pacific. Perhaps it's my habit of collecting older locomotives and models, but they really show how little can be done to convince the owner that what they have is a viable representation of the prototype. I'm not saying less is more, but there needed to be certain right boxes checked off to make people agree on a basis.

[R0Sch]

Don't understand what the big fuss is about the engine's length and why it's considered a caricature by the "train experts". There were dozens of engine types and sizes used on the Orient Express all the way from 1883. The Ideas submission just showed one example and I would rather have a train that can fit the LEGO tracks and be motorized then another static display piece a la UCS Hogwarts Express.
The LEGO Orient Express is most likely based on the SNCF 230.G.353. This locomotive and the sleeper wagons were displayed at a train expo in 2014 in Paris as well.

See the full gallery here: https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?search=Il+était+une+fois+l'Orient-Express&title=Special:MediaSearch&go=Go&type=image
 

And based on the distinct O.E logo and Orient Express (TM) from the catalogue it's also clear that this set is licensed to Orient Express SAS, who will unveil in 2025 a line of 17 restored luxury passenger cars, hence the hefty price tag. So you can be sure that the licensing partner had a big say in how this train should look like.

https://www.orient-express.com/trains/the-orient-express/

[Shiva]

@R0Sch, so we both agree that it reminds of https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/230_PO_4201_à_4370  230 G.

[Mondo-TRON]

1 hour ago, R0Sch said:

Don't understand what the big fuss is about the engine's length and why it's considered a caricature by the "train experts". There were dozens of engine types and sizes used on the Orient Express all the way from 1883. The Ideas submission just showed one example and I would rather have a train that can fit the LEGO tracks and be motorized then another static display piece a la UCS Hogwarts Express.
The LEGO Orient Express is most likely based on the SNCF 230.G.353. This locomotive and the sleeper wagons were displayed at a train expo in 2014 in Paris as well.

See the full gallery here: https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?search=Il+était+une+fois+l'Orient-Express&title=Special:MediaSearch&go=Go&type=image
 

And based on the distinct O.E logo and Orient Express (TM) from the catalogue it's also clear that this set is licensed to Orient Express SAS, who will unveil in 2025 a line of 17 restored luxury passenger cars, hence the hefty price tag. So you can be sure that the licensing partner had a big say in how this train should look like.

https://www.orient-express.com/trains/the-orient-express/

Maybe Orient Express had alot of say in this set. Maybe they wanted a shorter and less interesting  locomotive because the bigger focus are the cars. They went with blue rather than green because maybe they preferred  it to be unified.

[LordsofMedieval]

2 hours ago, Mondo-TRON said:

Maybe Orient Express had alot of say in this set. Maybe they wanted a shorter and less interesting  locomotive because the bigger focus are the cars. They went with blue rather than green because maybe they preferred  it to be unified.

The cars are intended to represent the pending refurbishment of the train. I agree with you: the entire focus was on the coaches. Sadly, in making this the modern train, it's really kind of pointless trying to imagine it as the 'glory days' OE from a century ago.

[CrispyBassist]

2 hours ago, LordsofMedieval said:

The cars are intended to represent the pending refurbishment of the train. I agree with you: the entire focus was on the coaches. Sadly, in making this the modern train, it's really kind of pointless trying to imagine it as the 'glory days' OE from a century ago.

The 17 refurbished cars mentioned above are actually cars used in the 1920s to 1930s for the Orient Express; they can represent both the modern train and the one from a century ago.

 

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/the-orient-express-is-making-a-comeback-180981216/

[Wise lego owl]

8 hours ago, R0Sch said:

Don't understand what the big fuss is about the engine's length and why it's considered a caricature by the "train experts". There were dozens of engine types and sizes used on the Orient Express all the way from 1883. The Ideas submission just showed one example and I would rather have a train that can fit the LEGO tracks and be motorized then another static display piece a la UCS Hogwarts Express.
The LEGO Orient Express is most likely based on the SNCF 230.G.353. This locomotive and the sleeper wagons were displayed at a train expo in 2014 in Paris as well.

See the full gallery here: https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?search=Il+était+une+fois+l'Orient-Express&title=Special:MediaSearch&go=Go&type=image
 

And based on the distinct O.E logo and Orient Express (TM) from the catalogue it's also clear that this set is licensed to Orient Express SAS, who will unveil in 2025 a line of 17 restored luxury passenger cars, hence the hefty price tag. So you can be sure that the licensing partner had a big say in how this train should look like.

https://www.orient-express.com/trains/the-orient-express/

Also Interestingly  enough, I think the  color  LEGO used for SNCF 230.G.353 seems to be based off this, as it looks similar, and I am starting to think Lego used this model also for reference.

[Gnukan]

11 hours ago, R0Sch said:

Don't understand what the big fuss is about the engine's length and why it's considered a caricature by the "train experts". There were dozens of engine types and sizes used on the Orient Express all the way from 1883. The Ideas submission just showed one example and I would rather have a train that can fit the LEGO tracks and be motorized then another static display piece a la UCS Hogwarts Express.
The LEGO Orient Express is most likely based on the SNCF 230.G.353. This locomotive and the sleeper wagons were displayed at a train expo in 2014 in Paris as well.

See the full gallery here: https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?search=Il+était+une+fois+l'Orient-Express&title=Special:MediaSearch&go=Go&type=image
 

And based on the distinct O.E logo and Orient Express (TM) from the catalogue it's also clear that this set is licensed to Orient Express SAS, who will unveil in 2025 a line of 17 restored luxury passenger cars, hence the hefty price tag. So you can be sure that the licensing partner had a big say in how this train should look like.

https://www.orient-express.com/trains/the-orient-express/

The Orient Express company certainly seems to put all their focus on the cars

[KvadratGnezdo]

I'm just going to say that LEGO for some reason cant get their poop together when it comes to steam trains. First the gigantic Hogwarts Express and now this toyetic nonsence. Star wars guys tore Lego a new one when it tried to sell them a playset as a UCS, this is basically the same. Like come on, this thing doesn't even have a smokebox and the proportions are all wrong.

 

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by KvadratGnezdo

[samsz_3]

48 minutes ago, KvadratGnezdo said:

I'm just going to say that LEGO for some reason cant get their poop together when it comes to steam trains. First the gigantic Hogwarts Express and now this toyetic nonsence. Star wars guys tore Lego a new one when it tried to sell them a playset as a UCS, this is basically the same. Like come on, this thing doesn't even have a smokebox and the proportions are all wrong.

 

 

Yeah - I also really don't like the lack of a smoke box. I think I'll add one when I extend the locomotive.