LEGO #21344 - Orient Express

[R0Sch]

On 10/18/2023 at 8:56 PM, Mondo-TRON said:

Are both sets  in the same scale? Maybe someone could do a Photoshop comparing the two sets together.

I don't think they are in the same scale. The crocodile is longer than the locomotive+tender.

[Mondo-TRON]

Just like the last two passenger trains, I think LEGO want customers to buy 2 sets of the OE to get a complete train. I feel like trains need atleast 3 cars.(Or an end /nose for those type of trains)

I wonder if they will release instruction to combine two locomotives. If not, a well built MOC would do.

[Lyichir]

24 minutes ago, Mondo-TRON said:

Just like the last two passenger trains, I think LEGO want customers to buy 2 sets of the OE to get a complete train. I feel like trains need atleast 3 cars.(Or an end /nose for those type of trains)

I wonder if they will release instruction to combine two locomotives. If not, a well built MOC would do.

I don't think this is why Lego limits the lengths of train sets. There are two main reasons to keep the length down—firstly, because adding an extra carriage inherently increases the base price (putting the set out of reach of more customers), and secondly, for a display-oriented set like this, people who lack the space for a full layout may have more of a challenge displaying a longer train.

For people who DO have the space and desire a more realistic number of cars, buying two copies of sets is always an option. But while I don't have any numbers to back it up or anything, I highly suspect that the vast majority of buyers don't bother buying more than one copy of any given train set.

[Aanchir]

29 minutes ago, Mondo-TRON said:

Just like the last two passenger trains, I think LEGO want customers to buy 2 sets of the OE to get a complete train. I feel like trains need atleast 3 cars.(Or an end /nose for those type of trains)

I wonder if they will release instruction to combine two locomotives. If not, a well built MOC would do.

I dunno if I agree in in this case, mainly 'cuz if you double the number of cars on the Orient Express, that'd mean a VERY long and heavy train for just one locomotive (and presumably, only one motor) to pull. Moreover, the original Ideas project had only ONE carriage, so LEGO is already providing more rolling stock than the bare minimum that its supporters on that site indicated they'd be willing to accept.

I suspect that LEGO would have considered that "doubling up" possibility with trains like the Horizon Express, since it was based on TGV trains that invariably have an engine at each end in real life. The same engine-at-both-ends approach could also work with the Maersk Train, since that arrangement isn't unheard of for freight trains, even if they're not purpose-built for it to the extent that TGVs are. And we KNOW they anticipated some buyers wanting to extend the Emerald Night, since they included stickers for multiple carriages despite only including one!

But it still remains to be seen whether that possibility is acknowledged to a similar extent in the design of the Orient Express set. In any event, I know there are definitely at least some train fans who are willing to spend extra for a longer train! And if so, I'm hoping some of y'all will go the extra step and redesign the carriages to reflect some of the other types of rolling stock from either the historical Orient Express or the modern one that is planned to begin service in 2025. A baggage car would be a good start, since that appears to be one of the set's more conspicuous omissions.

[SD100]

1 hour ago, R0Sch said:

I don't think they are in the same scale. The crocodile is longer than the locomotive+tender.

That image almost makes me think the designers intended this set as a coach pack for the crocodile, and that kind of explain why they didn't put much into the loco...

SD

[THERIZE]

1 hour ago, R0Sch said:

I don't think they are in the same scale. The crocodile is longer than the locomotive+tender.
 

The length of a LEGO model isn't really an accurate measurement, particularly since other people have already talked about the steam locomotive looking too short and the want to make it longer. The carriages themselves are also shortened, so that's also not the best way of looking at it. 

I think looking at the general height and proportions is a better way of looking at it. For example, with this image. You can see how the roof line of the Crocodile matches up with the coaches, and the sloped nose gets down to almost about where the windows of the coaches start. If you compare this image to the one you showed you can see the general size is quite accurate.

 

[Carefree_Dude]

Did powered up ever get  the equivalent of an XL motor? I'm not sure If I believe the standard train motor will be able to even pull very many of these cars. 

[LEGOTrainBuilderSG]

6 hours ago, R0Sch said:

I don't think they are in the same scale. The crocodile is longer than the locomotive+tender.

Now this looks much better! Now I gotta snag one of these crocodile sets.. 

[zephyr1934]

10 hours ago, R0Sch said:

Here you go: The forbidden catalog

You're awesome!

 

 

8 hours ago, SD100 said:

That image almost makes me think the designers intended this set as a coach pack for the crocodile, and that kind of explain why they didn't put much into the loco...

 

You might be on to something here

[dr_spock]

Looks pretty good with the Crocodile. 

6 hours ago, Carefree_Dude said:

Did powered up ever get  the equivalent of an XL motor? I'm not sure If I believe the standard train motor will be able to even pull very many of these cars. 

Yes, the PU Technic XL motor.  It was used in some Technic sets like the Volvo Hauler. 

https://brickset.com/sets/88014-1/Technic-XL-Motor

[SD100]

9 hours ago, Carefree_Dude said:

Did powered up ever get  the equivalent of an XL motor? I'm not sure If I believe the standard train motor will be able to even pull very many of these cars. 

OT but it will pull anything if you take the time to put in roller bearings.

SD

[R0Sch]

11 hours ago, THERIZE said:

The length of a LEGO model isn't really an accurate measurement, particularly since other people have already talked about the steam locomotive looking too short and the want to make it longer. The carriages themselves are also shortened, so that's also not the best way of looking at it. 

I think looking at the general height and proportions is a better way of looking at it. For example, with this image. You can see how the roof line of the Crocodile matches up with the coaches, and the sloped nose gets down to almost about where the windows of the coaches start. If you compare this image to the one you showed you can see the general size is quite accurate.

After some research on the real size of the crocodile and the OE, the LEGO crocodile locomotive does look pretty good in scale to the OE wagons in terms of height, but the length is no good measure. The croc is 19.5 m (which puts the LEGO model at 1:43) and an OE sleeper wagon is about 23m (but the LEGO ones are only 50 studs long, so about 14cm too short). I also found this color picture from '87 which is showing a croc pulling the OE:


P.S. A short summary on the OE history:
https://magazine.luxus-plus.com/en/lorient-express-celebrates-140-years-with-accor/

[street87]

The more I look ate this train, the better looking it is for me. You can easily put the Emerald night in front if the wagons, and it will look good. And the blue loco will go well with the tan wagon from the Emerald night.

 

[lego3057]

OE+10277 from BrickLink Studio

[THERIZE]

4 hours ago, R0Sch said:

After some research on the real size of the crocodile and the OE, the LEGO crocodile locomotive does look pretty good in scale to the OE wagons in terms of height, but the length is no good measure. The croc is 19.5 m (which puts the LEGO model at 1:43) and an OE sleeper wagon is about 23m (but the LEGO ones are only 50 studs long, so about 14cm too short). I also found this color picture from '87 which is showing a croc pulling the OE:


P.S. A short summary on the OE history:
https://magazine.luxus-plus.com/en/lorient-express-celebrates-140-years-with-accor/

Nice picture! I haven't seen that before. Interesting to think that both the locomotive and carriage are from the early 1900s and are still being used. The history page is interesting to read through as well. Not entirely accurate however, since the 'real' Orient Express ran from Paris to Vienna (and later from Strasbourg) until the end of 2009 actually, ending as the EuroNight 469. But to be fair, the actual history of the Orient Express feels like it's looked at with rose-coloured glasses by most people and with all the connecting trains and through carriages it's a lot of make sense of. Even a lounge or seating coach wasn't included on the first ones for example, according to most information I can find. Adding to your page of information, may I also add this one by Seat 61. The truth behind the legend, The Orient Express I also found this article when searching for the train composition, which might be some nice inspiration for what they can build to fit together.

[Mondo-TRON]

6 hours ago, R0Sch said:

After some research on the real size of the crocodile and the OE, the LEGO crocodile locomotive does look pretty good in scale to the OE wagons in terms of height, but the length is no good measure. The croc is 19.5 m (which puts the LEGO model at 1:43) and an OE sleeper wagon is about 23m (but the LEGO ones are only 50 studs long, so about 14cm too short). I also found this color picture from '87 which is showing a croc pulling the OE:


P.S. A short summary on the OE history:
https://magazine.luxus-plus.com/en/lorient-express-celebrates-140-years-with-accor/

Looking at the photoshop image , and the real world pics, and then your research, the  Lego Crocodile is too long for the OE cars.

[Aanchir]

On 10/19/2023 at 5:04 PM, SD100 said:

That image almost makes me think the designers intended this set as a coach pack for the crocodile, and that kind of explain why they didn't put much into the loco... 

SD 

I think it's more likely that they designed it expecting most buyers to build and display it as-is, but wanted to keep the scale similar to the crocodile locomotive for compatibility's sake (and/or in case people who already owned the crocodile DID decide to use this one as a coach pack).

I think the most likely reasons for the locomotive's reduced length were probably 1) ensuring the train could run smoothly on R40 curves and 2) wanting to include a second carriage, but without making the full set too much bigger or pricier than the original fan model that LEGO Ideas users supported.

9 hours ago, Mondo-TRON said:

Looking at the photoshop image , and the real world pics, and then your research, the Lego Crocodile is too long for the OE cars.

I dunno about that? In that last photo, the scale looks about right to me. Keep in mind that perspective makes foreground objects seem larger relative to background objects. Even so, the frontmost carriage in that photo seem to be at least 2/3 the length of the locomotive without accounting for the perspective, whereas in R0Sch's picture the LEGO carriages look to be around 3/4 the length of the LEGO Crocodile Locomotive.

[zephyr1934]

5 hours ago, Aanchir said:

I think the most likely reasons for the locomotive's reduced length were probably 1) ensuring the train could run smoothly on R40 curves and 2) wanting to include a second carriage, but without making the full set too much bigger or pricier than the original fan model that LEGO Ideas users supported.

I'd flip that around, (1) they spent most of the budget adding in a detailed second car, and only had a little left for the loco and (2) whatever loco they made had to handle R40 curves. But same end point.

[JaBaCaDaBra]

5 hours ago, Aanchir said:

coach pack for the crocodile

If they only did this in dark green...

[and_ampersand_and]

It's been mentioned before but bears mentioning again, remember this is technically a licensed set from the Orient Express company. They certainly had some say in how they set represented them.

 

Everything I've seen from them suggests they really focus heavily on the service you get aboard the train. How luxerious the coaches are. This set emphasises that with the large coaches with detailed interiors, and having 2 coaches with different interiors showing the different types of cars on the train.

 

It's very likely the focus on the coaches over the locomotive was the Orient Express' wishes.

[Elphiel]

On 10/19/2023 at 9:43 PM, R0Sch said:

I don't think they are in the same scale. The crocodile is longer than the locomotive+tender.

Well that is looking very nice! What annoys me most on the leaked OE is that the engine is the same color as the rest of the train. It just looks very boring. So without its own color and its small size compared to these very large (atleast for an official lego design) waggons, the crocodile just looks much better in proportions and color mix. Will get the OE for sure one or two times for the carriages and thinking about selling the engines or keep one for a different train idea.

[RedBrick1]

Has anyone heard when we should get an actual official look at the set? Are we looking at a December 2023 release, or early 2024?

[Murdoch17]

1 hour ago, RedBrick1 said:

Has anyone heard when we should get an actual official look at the set? Are we looking at a December 2023 release, or early 2024?

I heard it gets released to VIPs (or whatever they're calling it now) on November 1st, everyone else is on the 3rd of that month. Lego might just reveal it at the very last minute, or they might say "it's already out there, no need for a release announcement now" and just release it. Who knows for sure? We will just have to be patient I guess...

Edited October 22, 2023 by Murdoch17

[Black Falcon]

Before they revealed it with their Adults Catalogue, it was rumoured that the set would be delayed till next year - if it is supposed to be sold on November, I don´t think they would have pulled the catalogue back. And kinda, I feel like they would have already made an official reveal aswell.

[zephyr1934]

The guy in my club who seems to know all the leaks said Dec 1, but who knows if he pull that out of his donkey