LEGO #21344 - Orient Express

[R0Sch]

And here is the official source for the image, so a self leak by TLG:
https://catalogs.lego.com/lego-sets-for-adults/?icmp=LP-SHCC-Standard-BC_CC_Standard_Adults-TH-NO-OIU88W5XCB&page=70

[RedBrick1]

6 minutes ago, R0Sch said:

And here is the official source for the image, so a self leak by TLG:
https://catalogs.lego.com/lego-sets-for-adults/?icmp=LP-SHCC-Standard-BC_CC_Standard_Adults-TH-NO-OIU88W5XCB&page=70

October 2023 catalog, so maybe this hasn't been delayed after all. 

[Selander]

Looks like standard large drivers on steam locomotive just as I predicted.

I'm most surprised they choose snot:ed windows for the passenger cars, that looks exactly like my own passenger car design with 51239 sideways as windows 😍

And 8-wide... that's a bonus !!!

 

Hope pictures are authentic.

[Lyichir]

Oh, those interior furnishings look gorgeous!

[-DoNe-]

What pieces are they using for the pistons? Something new or a piece I’ve missed?

[R0Sch]

8 minutes ago, -DoNe- said:

What pieces are they using for the pistons? Something new or a piece I’ve missed?

You mean the linkages between the drivers? Looks like a Technic link similar to 30397 that is twice as long.

[-DoNe-]

2 minutes ago, R0Sch said:

You mean the linkages between the drivers? Looks like a Technic link similar to 30397 that is twice as long.

Plus tripple connections. Looks interesting!

[Glenn Holland]

Some thoughts...

Firstly, we have to remember that this is a LEGO train set. This has to have widespread appeal, use a certain number of parts, and be consumable for the average parent who has never built a train before, let alone steam.

Let's look at the locomotive:

At first glance, it seems off. This is reasonable. It's very obvious that the engine in the promo image does not share much resemblance to the original Ideas locomotive. Remember - the original submission was modeled in a way that it could not operate on Lego track. The drivers were not actual train wheels. Lego has departed from the source material with good intentions in this case. The boiler looks a bit fat - it is, but I'm willing to bet that they have opted for a Powered Up motor tucked inside which will power the drivers, as opposed to the ever-common train motor bogie under the tender. This would mean the drivers are quartered and there is legitimate thought and effort that has gone into making this a respectable, operable locomotive. 

Also, take a look at the rods on this engine - Lego seems to have departed from the Technic Liftarms of the Emerald Night days, and even the Technic axles and connectors of the Disney Train and more recent Hogwarts Express. This is a huge win, assuming the assumptions are correct! Even if it's the same piece being used as the connecting rods as well as the main rods, Lego has produced a new train-specific piece. 

The tender seems less of an after thought than recent steam models. Of course it will likely be designed to house a battery box for those that want a running engine.

Dark blue - this is perhaps the only thing I would change about the engine. Dark green seems to be much more common when someone thinks of a steam engine in front of the OE - Bavarian S 3/6 or perhaps a French 4-6-2 or 4-6-0. I'm wondering if the designer at Lego was inspired by the Bavarian S 3/5... regardless, a dark blue engine is still visually sharp.

In all, the engine is adorable. I like it.

 

The cars:

TWO cars instead of one! And they're unique. AND appear to be 8 studs wide. More room for detail, and Lego takes advantage of it. The cars both have unique and interesting detail which make them feel like a nice place to be: the tiling in the lavatory, the tables and bar in the dining section... I like what Lego has gone for here.

Figs - Looks like we get a solid assortment, including four train crew: engineer/fireman, conductor, porter, (or two porters), barmaid, and the remainder being passengers.

Display track - in a similar vein to the Crocodile, Lego seems to offer a display track for those who enjoy displaying their trains. Again, it's almost a definite that Lego has designed this set with motorization in mind. 

There's plenty off detail I'm probably missing that can only be discovered with the full set in hand.

 

Suffice to say... I'm looking forward to this set, and I have hardly been interested in any Lego set since Titanic. This feels like it will be a definite win for Lego trains. It seems to follow the more recent Lego train mentality of producing a set that can be expanded upon (more passenger cars and other fitting cars, recolor the engine, etc.) and upgradable (motorization, change the engine to a 4-6-2, add details, etc.). 

IF this is the real set to look forward to, I'll be in line on Day 1 (if I can).

Edited October 11, 2023 by Glenn Holland

[SerperiorBricks]

It looks maybe like they were aiming for a Royal Austrian Class 210 maybe? Wrong amount of domes but close shape. L Drivers make it look a bit wonky. According to Wikipedia, the locomotive was also placed in service to pull the famous "Orient Express" across Europe
 

 

The coaches really are beautiful, but um.. see attached

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by SerperiorBricks

[samsz_3]

First impressions! Impressed with the coaches, locomotive looks too short.

Very happy that there are 2 coaches - and the cutaway shows they are 8 wide. 

Locomotive looks quite short and squat - but (hopefully) this is because it can go around LEGO track. The leading wheels being right next to each other looks wrong. I'm not familiar with the European prototype, but UK steam locomotives usually have the cylinders between the first and second pair of leading wheels. 

I know the community can do better things to go around their wide curves, but I guess this the compromise Lego has to make. Set needs to be able to be sold to kids and AFOLS and go around R40 curves. The wheels are too close together. It's possible to make more spaced out wheel sets using EN wheels that go around R40 if you go (flange, flange, blind)

The coupling rods do look like the 3D printed ones the community uses.

Interested in the coupling connections. They don't look like the normal buffer pieces, but it would be silly to use a non standard connection on an AFOL train designed to run on tracks. Obviously they won't go back to the single magnets, but I'm wondering if they have a built in piece, like the buffers without the buffers.

Overall most anticipated set of the year, and I Will definitely buy one.

[LordsofMedieval]

Okay, that's pathetic. I wanted them to clean up the original locomotive design - not devolve it into Lone Ranger version 2.

What we see here are 8/10-level cars, and a 2/10 locomotive - significantly behind Emerald Night or even the Disney 8-wide in terms of complexity.

I mean, I guess I'm glad I don't have to spend money. But why are we the only subtheme where TLG takes a serious design submission intended for adults and turns it into a caricature? They didn't do that with the stupid Piano, or the Lighthouse, or the Pirate Ship. So why this? Why can't we get real passenger locomotive-scale wheels? This is Europe's - hell, THE WORLD'S - most iconic express train. Why is it being hauled by an engine that might look appropriate on a sugar cane plantation?

Edited October 11, 2023 by LordsofMedieval

[Murdoch17]

It was pointed out to me by a fellow LUG member that a Bavarian S 3/5 N is more close @SerperiorBricks. 4-6-2 versus a 2-6-0 like we have in the actual set.

Also, which minifig is Hercule Poirot? (If he isn't there, where is the 12th Doctor instead?  )

Edited October 11, 2023 by Murdoch17

[LordsofMedieval]

I just wanted to add something: the whole point of Lego Ideas is supposedly to take a FAN-DESIGNED set, vette it through the community, and then see it come to life in retail. It's intended to be a vehicle by which creators possessing an at-or-greater-than skill level to TLG's own staff are able to gift their talents to the wider fandom.

I allow that TLG should be able to tweak said designs to make them more saleable and profitable. But that is not an invitation for them to abandon the original wholesale. And this? This locomotive is Lego riffing. This is 100 percent THEIR work. It bears none of the hallmarks of the original engine, and in every way resembles pretty much every lazy steam loco they've ever released in playscale.

I'm not saying people can't like this design. I'm saying that it is in no way even REMOTELY similar to what was voted on. We've waited over a decade to see Lego take another serious crack at a 'grown up' steam engine; we know that there are dozens of MOCers worldwide who can produce excellent, functional Lego locomotives that bear a strong resemblance to their real-life counterparts.

Yet in this most crucial release, Lego defaults to "whatever a non-train person thinks a train looks like"...? To "who cares, it's a steam engine. That's all that matters"...?

I'm disgusted. No, that's not strong enough - I'm revolted. I'm angry on behalf of people who take this hobby seriously, who do their absolute best to produce bleeding edge designs (including the fellow who submitted the original), and are let down by the source. If the original submission had been a model of the Empire State Building and Lego released images of a cartoon house, would people have applauded then? I'd like to think not. And they shouldn't be cheering here.

Edited October 11, 2023 by LordsofMedieval

[Sven J]

30 minutes ago, LordsofMedieval said:

Okay, that's pathetic. I wanted them to clean up the original locomotive design - not devolve it into Lone Ranger version 2.

 

5 minutes ago, LordsofMedieval said:

I'm disgusted. No, that's not strong enough - I'm revolted. I'm angry on behalf of people who take this hobby seriously, who do their absolute best to produce bleeding edge designs (including the fellow who submitted the original), and are let down by the source. If the original submission had been a model of the Empire State Building and Lego released images of a cartoon house, would people have applauded then? I'd like to think not. And they shouldn't be cheering here.

!!!

Couldn't have said it better.
What a ridiculous caricature of a a steam locomotive.

[crowe-k]

1 hour ago, R0Sch said:

And here is the official source for the image, so a self leak by TLG:
https://catalogs.lego.com/lego-sets-for-adults/?icmp=LP-SHCC-Standard-BC_CC_Standard_Adults-TH-NO-OIU88W5XCB&page=70

Looks like Lego reverted back to the March calendar to avoid showing the OE. 

[Lyichir]

1 minute ago, LordsofMedieval said:

I just wanted to add something: the whole point of Lego Ideas is supposedly to take a FAN-DESIGNED set, vette it through the community, and then see it come to life in retail. It's intended to be a vehicle by which creators possessing an at-or-greater-than skill level to TLG's own staff are able to gift their talents to the wider fandom.

I allow that TLG should be able to tweak said designs to make them more saleable and profitable. But that is not an invitation for them to abandon the original wholesale. And this? This locomotive is Lego riffing. This is 100 percent THEIR work. It bears none of the hallmarks of the original engine, and in every way resembles pretty much every lazy steam loco they've ever released in playscale.

I'm not saying people can't like this design. I'm saying that it is in no way even REMOTELY similar to what was voted on. We've waited over a decade to see Lego take another serious crack at a 'grown up' steam engine; we know that there are dozens of MOCers worldwide who can produce excellent, functional Lego Lego locomotives that bear a strong resemblance to their real-life counterparts.

Yet in this most crucial release, Lego defaults to "whatever non-train person thinks a train looks like"...? To "who cares, it's a steam engine. That's all that matters?"

I'm disgusted.

I feel like every Ideas project gets accused of abandoning/betraying the concept that was voted on and eventually every time the project creator ends up being like "yeah, Lego consulted with me on the changes as they worked through the design process and I gave them the thumbs up."

[Murdoch17]

17 minutes ago, LordsofMedieval said:

I just wanted to add something: the whole point of Lego Ideas is supposedly to take a FAN-DESIGNED set, vette it through the community, and then see it come to life in retail. It's intended to be a vehicle by which creators possessing an at-or-greater-than skill level to TLG's own staff are able to gift their talents to the wider fandom.

I allow that TLG should be able to tweak said designs to make them more saleable and profitable. But that is not an invitation for them to abandon the original wholesale. And this? This locomotive is Lego riffing. This is 100 percent THEIR work. It bears none of the hallmarks of the original engine, and in every way resembles pretty much every lazy steam loco they've ever released in playscale.

I'm not saying people can't like this design. I'm saying that it is in no way even REMOTELY similar to what was voted on. We've waited over a decade to see Lego take another serious crack at a 'grown up' steam engine; we know that there are dozens of MOCers worldwide who can produce excellent, functional Lego Lego locomotives that bear a strong resemblance to their real-life counterparts.

Yet in this most crucial release, Lego defaults to "whatever non-train person thinks a train looks like"...? To "who cares, it's a steam engine. That's all that matters?"

I'm disgusted.

The original design's driving wheels weren't train wheels, and even if they were, they couldn't go around official curves or through switches at that size with that arrangement as you can't get that much bigger than official wheels before you start running into these issues. They probably looked at it from a business perspective such as this: "We just got new driving train wheels for the 2022 Hogwarts Express UCS but they aren't usable here if we make it run. We can't go making new in-between-size ones, because the higher ups don't see a major need with other stuff coming in the future. Smaller train wheels are more available anyway, and they are more in system with the track... maybe we can trade off the lack of new wheels for better side rod parts? They're going to hate us no matter what we do..."

I, for one feel sorry for the Ideas team - and by extension, all Lego set designers - they're damned if they do, damned if they don't. You couldn't pay me enough to take the abuse they do from the "fans".

Edited October 11, 2023 by Murdoch17

[LordsofMedieval]

1 minute ago, Murdoch17 said:

The original design's driving wheels weren't train wheels, and even if they were, they couldn't go around official curves or through switches at that size with that arrangement as you can't get that much bigger than official wheels before you start running into these issues. They probably looked at it from a business perspective such as this: "We just got new driving train wheels for the 2022 Hogwarts Express UCS but they aren't usable here if we make it run. We can't go making new in-between-size ones, because the higher ups don't see a major need with other stuff coming in the future. Smaller train wheels are more available anyway, and they are more in system with the track... maybe we can trade off the lack of new wheels for better side rod parts? They're going to hate us no matter what we do..."

They're plastic wheels, Murdoch. I'm not trying to be patronizing, but consider that model railroading manufacturers can do runs of less than 1,000 steam engines with metal wheels and can still turn a profit. Not to mention home hobbyists, who can knock out dozens of wheel variants from their den, ship them, and stay in business. So why can a global company worth billions not release 2 variants of a plastic driver? We're talking about TWO pieces.

This is greed. And it's also despising your customers - assuming that they're just ill-informed consumers who will gobble up anything so long as it is generically 'train;' 'boat'; 'bus;' 'car.'

I've never felt worse about Lego as a company than I do today.

[ToledoRails]

Now that the shock has worn off from the changeup of the locomotive holy lord this set is beautiful! The use of two boogied coaches is a huge win for any Lego Train fan, and that looks to be a display of 144 studs long! If you showed me those coaches and said, "These are HA Bricks models" you certainly could have fooled me. Now as for the locomotive, I understand the need to go down to the L sized drivers, but figured it would be keep to a pacific. Waiting on cleaner images to see/guess what the prototype chosen would be, but right now I'm setting some extra cash aside to give it the Powered Up treatment like the Crocodile.

[lego3057]

1st. The coaches look very good

2nd. The Locomotive is very similar to Emerald Night (but 8 wide not 7) a bit shorter, but looks like a toy. But at least it won´t have the traction problems found in Emerald (probably, Lego wanted to correct that mistake)

3rd. But there is a pattern here: is there any Lego train correctly scaled to the original ? (and no the Krodolile is also a mix of different scales). So after all this years one thing is clear: Modelrailroading is not their business.

4th. That was a clever move. Some people will buy 2 sets to build a real nice train.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by lego3057
add 2 points

[ToledoRails]

5 minutes ago, LordsofMedieval said:

They're plastic wheels, Murdoch. I'm not trying to be patronizing, but consider that model railroading manufacturers can do runs of less than 1,000 steam engines with metal wheels and can still turn a profit. Not to mention home hobbyists, who can knock out dozens of wheel variants from their den, ship them, and stay in business. So why can a global company worth billions not release 2 variants of a plastic driver? We're talking about TWO pieces.

This is greed. And it's also despising your customers - assuming that they're just ill-informed consumers who will gobble up anything so long as it is generically 'train;' 'boat'; 'bus;' 'car.'

I've never felt worse about Lego as a company than I do today.

Just go 3rd party if that's that much of a dealbreaker. The market has adapted to work around what Lego hasn't created. Same injection-molded plastic or 3D printing, just missing a microscopic logo on it. It's a blessing we're even seeing this set fully realized given how many have tried and failed on Lego Ideas before.

[Murdoch17]

11 minutes ago, LordsofMedieval said:

They're plastic wheels, Murdoch. I'm not trying to be patronizing, but consider that model railroading manufacturers can do runs of less than 1,000 steam engines with metal wheels and can still turn a profit. Not to mention home hobbyists, who can knock out dozens of wheel variants from their den, ship them, and stay in business. So why can a global company worth billions not release 2 variants of a plastic driver? We're talking about TWO pieces.

This is greed. And it's also despising your customers - assuming that they're just ill-informed consumers who will gobble up anything so long as it is generically 'train;' 'boat'; 'bus;' 'car.'

I've never felt worse about Lego as a company than I do today.

Model railroad companies are in business for (semi) realism, and market to serious folks - model railroaders. Lego is a building brick company that happens to make trains with those bricks, mostly for kids and some adults. Would you prefer a model that doesn't run on the track they provide? Model railroading is dying industry, with it's average fan base above 50 years old. Would you prefer LEGO be on it's last legs too? For example: Lionel went bust in 1969, got bought out, and is a shell of it's former self these days.

Also, this engine is based on a real loco: Bavarian S 3/5 N (with a three wheel tender) is they type I found it's closest too. So it's not a caricature, it's based firmly in reality!

Edited October 11, 2023 by Murdoch17

[ToledoRails]

1 minute ago, Murdoch17 said:

Also, this engine is based on a real loco: Bavarian S 3/5 N (with a three wheel tender) is they type I found it's closest too. So it's not a caricature, it's based firmly in reality!

Curious to see if we get faithful marking like the Crocodile printed onto the Brick for it. Good research on finding it!

[Murdoch17]

3 minutes ago, ToledoRails said:

Curious to see if we get faithful marking like the Crocodile printed onto the Brick for it. Good research on finding it!

To be honest, I didn't find it. A fellow LUG member did, and I agreed with him. Sorry if I was unclear.

[Man with a hat]

I like it. The coaches are really good with 8 wide and decent length and nice detailing. I was a bit surprised with the locomotive. Not that it is bad but it is a bit off. Too short basically. But it still looks nice.