[OFFICIAL] 10320 Eldorado Fortress - Retiring SOON!

[TeriXeri]

24 minutes ago, jodawill said:

Dude, I envy you so much. The only large set I ever got as a kid was Fort Legoredo (because it was heavily clearanced). I spent so many hours looking at Enchanted Island in the catalogs when I was a kid. I still don't have it. I got a lot of enjoyment from looking at the pictures though, maybe even more than some people who owned it.

While I did grow up with a bunch of LEGO (family members) I never had many large sets either, Enchanted Island certainly the biggest due to the raised baseplates. 

I do share the feeling of staring at catalogs a lot, especially the Castles, Pirate Islands/Fortresses, Monorails, large (Space)Ships etc.

Eventually I did get a couple sets for birthday/holidays like Dragon Wagon (1993), or Royal Drawbridge (1995), but the majority of sets were those small boxed sets, some of those that are almost "polybag" sized nowadays. (like the 1995 Royal King would live in Royal Drawbridge for me ,as I didn't have another Castle)

I didn't really follow LEGO from 2001 to 2016, so missed out a bunch of Pirate / Castle / Space waves that were around, Barracuda Bay and later the 3-in-1 (Ship/Castle/Vikings), Icons Lion Knights Castle, Galaxy Explorer and upcoming Eldorado , gives a bit of chance to "relive" the era of watching catalogs. 

Edited June 16, 2023 by TeriXeri

[jodawill]

9 minutes ago, Alexandrina said:

It's not so much that the Islanders were offensive so much as they were very much a representation of the "noble savage" - which was a concept intentionally ascribed to Rousseau to give it legitimacy by a man who attacked Darwin's theory of evolution because it went against his own theory that different groups of humans were descended from different creatures, essentially that they were different species. It's also a trope in which the "noble savage" is enlightened about the world by the white sailors who visit them. The Islanders themselves don't represent any specific culture that I'm aware of, but they were placed in the world of the pirates, and that theme is very explicitly set in the Caribbean. The Islanders are therefore a proxy of the Caribbean indigenous people (and Polynesian, to a lesser extent) but are more a caricature of the western imagination than a faithful interpretation of a real culture.

If the Islanders were divorced from the Caribbean setting it would probably be alright (especially if Lego attempted to give them a more thought-out lore; as is, it's basically stereotypical savages with primitive weapons) but as it is it doesn't really sit right.

Well, there's obviously a lot here that's just flown over my head. I'm not familiar with the idea of the "noble savage." So I have to apologize here because this is a topic I'm completely ignorant of. But I wonder if people are just bringing their adult baggage and jadedness and reading a lot more into this than Lego ever intended. I don't remember ever seeing anything in the magazines about the islanders being enlightened. It was just really cool to have another type of faction to contrast with the Europeans who were all so similar.

I'm not saying you're wrong, of course. I'm just an innocent, ignorant bystander here wondering why we can't just enjoy our toys. 

[dimc]

17 minutes ago, jodawill said:

I wonder if people are just bringing their adult baggage and jadedness and reading a lot more into this than Lego ever intended.

I'm not saying you're wrong, of course. I'm just an innocent, ignorant bystander here wondering why we can't just enjoy our toys. 

I highly doubt Lego intended this; it was a common idea at the time (and for hundreds of years prior). But you don't have to intend to do harm to actually do it, and this is why we aren't likely to see a remake of Islanders. We are more knowledgeable now, and as such, should apply that and make better toys.

There's also a large component of "European culture is superior" when the natives are depicted with spears and bows and wearing leaves, and having much more primitive-looking buildings, vs the ships and forts and guns and swords and armor. As @Alexandrina mentioned, the "enlightening" of the savages was a very common topic of discussion (and action) in this era, and if the "noble savages" had anything to teach European cultures. Which is of course absent from the playsets; kids wouldn't understand, nor be interested. The harm visited upon natives, especially in the Americas, in the name of enlightenment ranges from forced schooling to abduction to forced religious conversion to outright murder, verging on genocide. See news of Canada's residential schools in the past few years for modern examples; the USA can provide entire books worth if you want some depressing reading.

For the same reason, you likely won't see indigenous Americans depicted in the same way in any remakes of Western sets. Cavalry vs outlaws might work, but we'll see.

If you're interested in reading more about this, I recommend The Dawn of Everything. It's a weighty tome, but not inaccessible, and it will give a lot of insight into native cultures in the Americas and around the world and how they were not at all like we tend to think.

Edit: I do want to say that Islanders could and did provide a lot of fun for kids in the 90s! I still enjoy them and would like to collect more of the sets (enchanted island is a dream, even if the name itself conjures up noble savage ideas), though I do of course look at them with a modern lens. Kids will enjoy lots of toys, but if we can stop perpetuating old and outdated ideas, we should.

Edited June 16, 2023 by dimc

[zinnn]

7 hours ago, Roebuck said:

I wonder if a future Saber island GWP will be made to fit this set 

Is that confirmed That Sabre Island will be a GWP?

[jodawill]

11 minutes ago, dimc said:

There's also a large component of "European culture is superior" when the natives are depicted with spears and bows and wearing leaves, and having much more primitive-looking buildings, vs the ships and forts and guns and swords and armor.

That's really what makes the theme so great though. I never understood it as they were inferior. They were just a different culture, and it was great because it was so different. It's actually not much different from the makeshift housing the pirates created, and there's the whole idea of "This place is such a paradise, you can live in a hut and be comfortable." It seems like we're just automatically assuming that anyone who sees the difference in the cultures will immediately assume different means bad and inferior. I never inferred that when I was a kid.

Quote

As @Alexandrina mentioned, the "enlightening" of the savages was a very common topic of discussion (and action) in this era, and if the "noble savages" had anything to teach European cultures. Which is of course absent from the playsets; kids wouldn't understand, nor be interested. The harm visited upon natives, especially in the Americas, in the name of enlightenment ranges from forced schooling to abduction to forced religious conversion to outright murder, verging on genocide. See news of Canada's residential schools in the past few years for modern examples; the USA can provide entire books worth if you want some depressing reading.

For the same reason, you likely won't see indigenous Americans depicted in the same way in any remakes of Western sets. Cavalry vs outlaws might work, but we'll see.

If you're interested in reading more about this, I recommend The Dawn of Everything. It's a weighty tome, but not inaccessible, and it will give a lot of insight into native cultures in the Americas and around the world and how they were not at all like we tend to think.

I don't disagree about the harm done to native people in the past, but I still don't really understand what makes the 1990s sets offensive. Maybe I'm still missing something because I just don't get it. I'll check out that book and see if it makes more sense to me after that. Thanks!

3 minutes ago, zinnn said:

Is that confirmed That Sabre Island will be a GWP?

No, only wishful thinking. But there's a rumor about a Majisto GWP that I believe came from the same person who leaked the info on this set. I sure would love to see it though! Of course, of all the buildings, that's probably the easiest one to recreate with pieces from 10320, but I'd still stockpile them. It's a great set.

[dimc]

4 minutes ago, jodawill said:

That's really what makes the theme so great though. I never understood it as they were inferior. They were just a different culture, and it was great because it was so different. It's actually not much different from the makeshift housing the pirates created, and there's the whole idea of "This place is such a paradise, you can live in a hut and be comfortable." It seems like we're just automatically assuming that anyone who sees the difference in the cultures will immediately assume different means bad and inferior. I never inferred that when I was a kid.

I don't disagree about the harm done to native people in the past, but I still don't really understand what makes the 1990s sets offensive. Maybe I'm still missing something because I just don't get it. I'll check out that book and see if it makes more sense to me after that. Thanks!

The thing is, none of this stands alone. It's not that we think "OK because of this Lego theme, natives are seen as inferior." It's combined with the same underlying message in so many other media. Movies, books, tv shows, media appearances by (especially) politicians and others who don't know better. And it's not the most offensive thing out there, of course, but Lego, a company that is typically pretty good as far as what they produce, is likely aware of it now and as such probably won't produce it again. Little things add up over time, and reinforce what may be in your head.

I never had any Islanders as a kid so I don't have the same old memories of it, and I don't remember what I thought as a kid other than "ooh new pirates theme" but I definitely learned about how colonists (and then Americans) brought "civilization" to the natives of the midwest and west. The whitewashing of history in public schools is frankly awful. So instead of having a theme that subtly reinforces that idea, they can work on making a better representation (if they choose to make one at all, which, given how it might go, I have doubts).

[jodawill]

5 minutes ago, dimc said:

The thing is, none of this stands alone. It's not that we think "OK because of this Lego theme, natives are seen as inferior." It's combined with the same underlying message in so many other media. Movies, books, tv shows, media appearances by (especially) politicians and others who don't know better. And it's not the most offensive thing out there, of course, but Lego, a company that is typically pretty good as far as what they produce, is likely aware of it now and as such probably won't produce it again. Little things add up over time, and reinforce what may be in your head.

I never had any Islanders as a kid so I don't have the same old memories of it, and I don't remember what I thought as a kid other than "ooh new pirates theme" but I definitely learned about how colonists (and then Americans) brought "civilization" to the natives of the midwest and west. The whitewashing of history in public schools is frankly awful. So instead of having a theme that subtly reinforces that idea, they can work on making a better representation (if they choose to make one at all, which, given how it might go, I have doubts).

If they brought those two themes back, what changes do you think would make them more tactful?

[LordsofMedieval]

1 hour ago, jodawill said:

Honestly, I don't really understand what's supposed to be so offensive about depicting native people. The way I understand it, the argument is that they're an amalgamation of multiple groups of people, especially the western sets. So by not making a distinction between one group and another, it's insensitive to those people. But isn't that every Lego theme ever? Someone pointed out in this thread that it's not really clear whether the bluecoats are French or English. They're abstract enough that you can make them whatever you want. (That's why I always prefer simpler torsos. They're more versatile and leave more up to the imagination.)

There are definitely offensive depictions of native people in the media. Except for the red skin on the old homemaker set, I think Lego has always been very tactful.

I'm sure someone is going to disagree with me on this, but I'd really like to hear a thought out explanation on how the Islanders were offensive because I don't understand it. Maybe there's something I'm overlooking. I'd love to see them return. I loved them so much when I was a kid. I got the Islander Catamaran in my easter basket when I was a kid. It's one of my fondest Lego memories.

My guess is that it has something to do with a bunch of people belonging to a minority race worshipping stone statues on islands. And... I suppose that might be offensive to... someone? Except, they still exist in the world today.

[dimc]

3 minutes ago, jodawill said:

If they brought those two themes back, what changes do you think would make them more tactful?

That's a good question, and without a lot of thought, I don't know yet. I think one area would be to work with natives from whichever area to make things consistent and culturally accurate. I think, oddly, one good example (in one way) is the Western set Rapid River Village. It's entirely focused on the natives, and while I suspect they have badly mixed and matched native cultures to make it, it is a solid idea to have a village with play options. Enchanted Island suffers a bit here because it has pirates (though I do understand why they did that), but an accurate depiction of a Caribbean or western village, or hunting group, or exploration group would work for me.

In fact, as I look at the poorly-named Indians theme, all of the sets actually only portray the natives. There's no conflict with the cavalry. So props to Lego on that, even if they completely hashed the rest of it.

[Arjo]

Well in a world where controversy can (rightly or not) arise from anything big or small, I am even surprised Lego is giving us imperial soldiers at all. I am personally pleased but current trends suggest this might become off-limit before we know it so I see it as my one chance to get a few… decades after those I took for granted as a child.

[jodawill]

 

Quote

In fact, as I look at the poorly-named Indians theme, all of the sets actually only portray the natives. There's no conflict with the cavalry. So props to Lego on that, even if they completely hashed the rest of it.

How do you think it was botched? A quick Google search shows that a lot of those people prefer to be called American Indians. A 1999 study I found showed almost 50% preferred that term over Native Americans at that time. Yeah, it's an amalgamation of different tribes, but every faction across all Lego themes is an amalgamation.

The castle sets contain elements that represent periods hundreds of years apart within the same set. The soldiers in the pirate themes are pretty ambiguous. Characters in City sets don't even represent people from a particular country, much less a region of a specific country. There's a lot of cultural differences among groups in the US, even among white people, and they don't make any distinction. No Lego faction is meant to represent any particular group of people. That's what makes them so great. They can be whatever you want them to be. The natives in the western sets were never shown to be in any type of conflict. What's the issue there? I don't see it. I'd be curious to see what those people think of the Lego sets. I've never actually seen anyone weigh in on it.

I don't really see anyone pointing to any specific problems with those Lego themes. It seems like the idea is just that it's a taboo topic, or we're even just making up controversy where none ever existed.

Sorry, I've gone way off topic. I guess my only point in saying this stuff is that I would really enjoy seeing those themes return after being on hiatus for so many years (apart from a few CMFs). I can see why Lego would want to shy away from potentially controversial topics, but those are among my favorite themes of all time. Lego is very much centered on western culture (although they've ventured into the Chinese market recently), and it's always refreshing to see more cultures represented to break up the monotony of all the American and European centered themes.

[dimc]

Here's an interesting thread (if you are OK with visiting reddit) from presumably some native people (though it's the internet, so who knows for certain) discussing representation in the CMF line:

 

[Aanchir]

10 hours ago, Pirate_King_1982 said:

Okay, how many people think I would be crazy trying to do an updated Clipper and updated Barracuda that are more ore less as they were back in day in both size, appearance and form to go along with this set just using more upadated techniques and pieces? I’m at the point where I’m actually considering tiling and otherwise upgrading the ship from POBB to be on the same level as the fantastic Redbeard’s House on Skull Island by @Massenzio and Lagoo Lockup Revisted bu @SleeplessNight, both of which I was thinking building quite detailed displays around with clear tiles for the water and such,  and was thinking I would like something a little closer to what the originals were like to display with this on my shelf. I’m even considering designing an upgraded Forbidden Island and/or Rock Island Refuge too. On the flip side I’m also considering designing a huge Eldorado Fortress moc that is as detailed as what the two designers I just mentioned have made theirs sets. Actually that sounds even more insane the the clipper and Barracuda MOCs. 

I mean, the Barracuda design from Pirates of Barracuda Bay is pretty much what you're describing, aside from the modified interiors. The masts, bowsprits, and sails are slightly larger than the original for , but the hull is more or less the same size as the original BSB.

Caribbean Clipper is one I've tried designing a digital update of, but I'm not very knowledgeable or experienced when it comes to shipbuilding so I've never really gotten close to any sort of state of completion. I'd love to see somebody else attempt that in the style of these two sets, though!

2 hours ago, Alexandrina said:

The Islanders themselves don't represent any specific culture that I'm aware of, but they were placed in the world of the pirates, and that theme is very explicitly set in the Caribbean. The Islanders are therefore a proxy of the Caribbean indigenous people (and Polynesian, to a lesser extent) but are more a caricature of the western imagination than a faithful interpretation of a real culture. 

Yeah, as much as I loved the Islanders sets as a kid (I even dressed as King Kahuka for Halloween when I was four years old!), as an adult it's much easier to see the numerous issues with the theme. It's very overtly an arbitrary mashup of Western colonialist stereotypes of indigenous cultures as portrayed in pirate fiction, rather than any sort of earnest tribute to or representation of indigenous island cultures.

For my part I'd say that faction is more heavily Polynesian inspired from a cultural standpoint than Caribbean-inspired, despite the theme's intended setting. After all, they use catamarans and outrigger boats in addition to standard canoes, and the colossal brick-built stone statues evoke the famous Moai of Rapa Nui (though I suspect the Olmec colossal heads from present-day Mexico may have also been a source of inspiration). But then you have the seemingly African-inspired graphic designs of the shields, sails and canoes characterized by bold, brightly-colored geometric zigzag motifs, not to mention the inexplicable zebra-skin drums — who ever heard of zebras living on islands?
 

In any case, all of this is kind of tangential to the Eldorado Fortress discussion, unless it turns out to have some Islanders-related easter eggs like the statue in Barracuda Bay. Back on-topic, this article I came across yesterday has a couple photos I hadn't seen elsewhere, including a still image of the narrow skeleton cave in front of the jail, and a clearer pic of the stove I mentioned in my previous post. The cliff wall underneath the stove is built solid, which I suppose isn't too surprising given how narrow a space there is between the inner and outer walls.

Still eager to see a review, designer video, or designer interview that really gets into more detail about all the features that aren't obvious in the official photos, though…

EDIT: Here's another article with lots of good photos, including some of the back-of-box photos a little clearer and not cropped so tight!

Edited June 16, 2023 by Aanchir

[jodawill]

8 minutes ago, dimc said:

Here's an interesting thread (if you are OK with visiting reddit) from presumably some native people (though it's the internet, so who knows for certain) discussing representation in the CMF line:

That's really interesting. Not surprisingly, there are about as many takes on this as there are people even within that community. It would be even more interesting to see their responses after being shown all of the sets from the '90s in addition to the CMFs. Of course, Reddit is always going to over-represent a certain demographic. The site is heavily left-leaning, and more traditional natives probably don't visit the site in large numbers.

It's a great critique pointing out that they seem to focus too much on the warriors. That's obviously what the classic pirates and castle themes have always been about, regardless of faction. But given the context, I think it would be more tactful to avoid the action contexts. The '90s theme was all about them "communing with nature," but there were a lot of weapons and face paint and nothing for them to hunt but snakes. It would be cool to see sets that incorporate more culture, like they said - the storytellers and children and so forth.

I often see the argument that companies should "work with the community" to find something that's culturally appropriate. I don't think it's wrong to consult some of them, but that idea kind of makes the assumption that they're a homogeneous group whose views can be represented by some leaders in the community. That would be like asking Joe Biden if he thinks it's appropriate to depict Americans with guns. Half the country will say it's completely inappropriate because of the mass shootings. The other half sees guns as part of their identity. There are so many different tribes, there's no way Lego could ever afford the budget to represent everyone. That could be an argument to avoid the topic altogether, or it could be an argument to make the sets more generic so more people can identify with them.

I guess given the current political climate, the best business decision is just to stay out of it completely. But it's just a real bummer for Lego fans. I wish we could just all get along - not be hateful to people, and also not assume people are being hateful because they're having some fun. I don't think people should have to have a PhD to play pretend with other cultures. It's just fun to imagine, even if we're completely ignorant like me. In my ideal world, people would just roll their eyes or laugh when they see someone like me pretending to be an Indian and completely failing because they know I'm not doing it out of any malice. I'm just an idiot having some fun.

[dimc]

2 minutes ago, Aanchir said:

Caribbean Clipper is one I've tried designing a digital update of, but I'm not very knowledgeable or experienced when it comes to shipbuilding so I've never really gotten close to any sort of state of completion. I'd love to see somebody else attempt that in the style of these two sets, though!

I have a modified Clipper that I need to take pictures of and share here. I ended up with a couple of extra midsections in a haul, so I wanted to make a flag-ier ship. I'm hoping that the taller side dock on EF will work for it, since it seems logical that they would need to resupply and change out soldiers and such. It is built almost entirely with vintage parts and techniques though, so nothing crazy like you see in the MOCs posted here.

4 minutes ago, jodawill said:

That's really interesting. Not surprisingly, there are about as many takes on this as there are people even within that community. It would be even more interesting to see their responses after being shown all of the sets from the '90s in addition to the CMFs.

This would be good, and it was what I was hoping to see in the thread, but alas. The CMFs are better I think, because they are representative of some of those nations and cultural identities without tying them into a story (of fighting cavalry or each other or whatever). A child can get some that look more like them and build their own play around it!

7 minutes ago, jodawill said:

I often see the argument that companies should "work with the community" to find something that's culturally appropriate. I don't think it's wrong to consult some of them, but that idea kind of makes the assumption that they're a homogeneous group whose views can be represented by some leaders in the community. 

That's true, and a tough nut to crack. Not everyone will ever agree in a group, if the group size is 2 or more. :P But if they're going to try to represent a group, especially one that has been historically marginalised or had outright hostilities declared on them, it's best to work with them to find out what seems OK. And if it fosters discussion on something that isn't right, that's a chance to learn and grow, which is what we should all be striving for.

 

10 minutes ago, jodawill said:

I wish we could just all get along - not be hateful to people, and also not assume people are being hateful because they're having some fun.

The problem is that there is a lot of hate going on right now, and sometimes it takes the forms of so-called play ("It's just a joke bro!" kind of shit). This makes it harder to distinguish innocent play and hurtful play.

 

13 minutes ago, jodawill said:

It's just fun to imagine, even if we're completely ignorant like me.

Totally! And you can learn about other cultures that way too! But the difference is that you're taking an interest in other views, and considering whether they are harmful or not. That's called growth, and we encourage it in kids all the time. It's a shame that so many adults don't introspect like you, because they might find out some things that aren't how they thought.

[jodawill]

11 minutes ago, Aanchir said:

For my part I'd say that faction is more heavily Polynesian inspired from a cultural standpoint than Caribbean-inspired, despite the theme's intended setting. After all, they use catamarans and outrigger boats in addition to standard canoes, and the colossal brick-built stone statues evoke the famous Moai of Rapa Nui (though I suspect the Olmec colossal heads from present-day Mexico may have also been a source of inspiration). But then you have the seemingly African-inspired graphic designs of the shields, sails and canoes characterized by bold, brightly-colored geometric zigzag motifs, not to mention the inexplicable zebra-skin drums — who ever heard of zebras living on islands?
 

Yeah, I don't think any of it is supposed to make sense.

11 minutes ago, Aanchir said:

In any case, all of this is kind of tangential to the Eldorado Fortress discussion, unless it turns out to have some Islanders-related easter eggs like the statue in Barracuda Bay. Back on-topic, this article I came across yesterday has a couple photos I hadn't seen elsewhere, including a still image of the narrow skeleton cave in front of the jail, and a clearer pic of the stove I mentioned in my previous post. The cliff wall underneath the stove is built solid, which I suppose isn't too surprising given how narrow a space there is between the inner and outer walls.

Still eager to see a review, designer video, or designer interview that really gets into more detail about all the features that aren't obvious in the official photos, though…

EDIT: Here's another article with lots of good photos, including some of the back-of-box photos a little clearer and not cropped so tight!

You know, somehow the set looks absolutely massive from this angle, although I think it's actually completely identical to the size of the original 32x32 baseplate.

I still haven't seen any images of underneath the ramp, so they're either saving a great hidden feature for a special treat when we build it, or it's just completely nothing. The way the cavern section with the skeleton goes farther in the next wall section makes me wonder if it might actually wrap around to a special hideout under the ramp. I haven't really seen any evidence of how the ramp is built, so I keep thinking it could be either on a hinge or just sits loosely so you can easily access the section underneath. If it isn't built that way, that would at least be a great modification to make.

Also, I'm really glad they did something with the section that holds the lower cannon. I looked over at my Eldorado Fortress this morning that's been sitting on my table since before this set was rumored. I thought some kids had taken some pieces off when I saw how flat that part is. I had to look up images of the set to verify it really is that plain. The new version is much improved, especially the rounder shape. I really couldn't be happier with this set unless they brought back molds that have been retired for a long time, like the palm trees.

[dimc]

13 minutes ago, jodawill said:

You know, somehow the set looks absolutely massive from this angle, although I think it's actually completely identical to the size of the original 32x32 baseplate.

It really is a chonky set from that angle.

13 minutes ago, jodawill said:

I really couldn't be happier with this set unless they brought back molds that have been retired for a long time, like the palm trees.

The monkey is a little odd to me, but that's such an easy fix. I've got monkeys, crabs, parrots, all good things to add to this. Fun fact, the crabs can hold swords and fight the imperials.

[Aanchir]

7 minutes ago, jodawill said:

You know, somehow the set looks absolutely massive from this angle, although I think it's actually completely identical to the size of the original 32x32 baseplate.

Pretty much! The sections built on wedge plates extend beyond the main 32x32 footprint, but that's not really unlike how some parts of the original set extended beyond the baseplate's footprint. It IS slightly taller than the original set — the parapets of the main structure rise 24 bricks tall, compared to around 23 in the original model — but overall, the designers seemed to adhere pretty closely to the original build's dimensions.

[brickbuilder007]

37 minutes ago, jodawill said:

I still haven't seen any images of underneath the ramp, so they're either saving a great hidden feature for a special treat when we build it, or it's just completely nothing. The way the cavern section with the skeleton goes farther in the next wall section makes me wonder if it might actually wrap around to a special hideout under the ramp. I haven't really seen any evidence of how the ramp is built, so I keep thinking it could be either on a hinge or just sits loosely so you can easily access the section underneath. If it isn't built that way, that would at least be a great modification to make.

Let me drop this image again (about the ramp structure). After looking a bit more into the video and images of the set I think the area beneath the ramp and the entrance is an extension to the cave area of the central part (the section with the dining table that can be turned into a docking area for larger ships).

Here you can also see part of the construction how the ramp is build. It seems to be using modified plates with tow ball sockets (14704+14417) to keep the ramp in place. I still have a feeling there could be something hidden beneath this construction area since it has to be quite some studs long (perhaps some more frogs)

I've also noticed some sort of passage area beneath the walls. You can clearly see it on the jail module and tower crane module. It seems to me they are separated from the larger cave area. And it also houses a skeleton!

You can see that segment again on this picture. I wonder what else is hidden in there!

I'm also wondering if this set will have paper packaging, I assume at this point that at least the manual is wrapped in paper like with set 10305. And hopefully the sails are packaged in their own separate paper wrapping (similar to the pneumatic tubes in set 42157). It would be a shame if the sails get damaged in shipping! 

[dimc]

If you go to the Lego page for this (https://www.lego.com/en-us/product/eldorado-fortress-10320) and look at picture 4, there's a high dock. But in the rotational video, that isn't there. Is that somehow internal to the fort? Or an alt build? Why can't I figure out where that is?

[Aanchir]

10 minutes ago, dimc said:

If you go to the Lego page for this (https://www.lego.com/en-us/product/eldorado-fortress-10320) and look at picture 4, there's a high dock. But in the rotational video, that isn't there. Is that somehow internal to the fort? Or an alt build? Why can't I figure out where that is?

That 8x16 dock forms the center of the fort's "courtyard" when built in a traditional closed layout!

15 minutes ago, brickbuilder007 said:

I've also noticed some sort of passage area beneath the walls. You can clearly see it on the jail module and tower crane module. It seems to me they are separated from the larger cave area. And it also houses a skeleton!

You can see that segment again on this picture. I wonder what else is hidden in there!

I'm honestly not sure how much the tunnel itself can house, given how narrow it is. I'm more interested in where it leads to, opposite the pirate skeleton's unfortunate "dead end". In the second two images you shared, the tunnel would just get cut off by the fort's dock. But in an enclosed layout, the other end of the tunnel would connect to an area directly behind the frontmost cliff face and below the front parapet wall, which is one of the few "underground" areas I haven't seen in any photos or videos so far.

[dimc]

12 minutes ago, Aanchir said:

That 8x16 dock forms the center of the fort's "courtyard" when built in a traditional closed layout!

Ooh, OK. That makes sense, I was honestly hoping to have a taller dock on the right side when you look face-on at the ramp. I guess that will be my first adjustment!

[Time77]

On 6/15/2023 at 3:50 AM, Classic_Spaceman said:

That is not what I said - I said that PoBB was $200 when it released three years ago (and, therefore, would have been accessible to the same people who are buying this set now). 
 

Its not 3 years ago, so It's not accessible to the same people looking to buy this set now.

3 hours ago, Aanchir said:

Yeah, as much as I loved the Islanders sets as a kid (I even dressed as King Kahuka for Halloween when I was four years old!), as an adult it's much easier to see the numerous issues with the theme. It's very overtly an arbitrary mashup of Western colonialist stereotypes of indigenous cultures as portrayed in pirate fiction, rather than any sort of earnest tribute to or representation of indigenous island cultures.

Thats exactly what the rest of the pirates and castle themes are "arbitrary mashup"s of whatever looks cool

[CAESARBLACK]

Hi Everyone,

AFOL and a new member here. Just joined up to comment about this set in the hopes that someone at LEGO is at least reading this for all the masses.

Having owned the original 6276 when I was a child this set brings back huge nostalgia for me as did Pirates of Barracuda Bay . That being said , I feel that Lego missed out heavily with 10302. 

With respect to Pirates of Barracuda bay , were the majority of the sets sold purchased at a Lego store , Lego.com or on sale at Walmart and the like? I would love to see those stats but that is wishful thinking.

Lets dive in:

PROS of 10302

• 5 times more pieces
• The price point is "cheap" in comparison . Having 5 times the pieces with inflation this should be in the $700 range (based on the $60 price tag of 1989)
• raised base plate is now modular pieces which gets a huge thumbs up
• kept somewhat with the original theme of the blue coats (white and yellow)
• Inclusion of the ship pays homage to 6277

CONS of 10302:

• black dock and crane. 1989 didn't have a lot of brown pieces (unless it was the hull of the ship) so it would have been more fitting to remake these in brown.
• The trees! Why didn't the use the palm trees from 21322!?
• The monkey 
• The steering wheel for the ship 
• Lack of creativity with the "foundation" of the buildings. Old forts were never built on flat ground. I would have liked to see more grey pieces at different heights to the bases.

IMHO , I would have rather they didn't include the ship and grew the set a little with more pieces but that's where the MOC comes into play , also ,not really a con but more of a statement that will cause some controversy .I am fully aware that females play with Lego and having bought several sets for my nieces I am all about inclusion but lets be realistic with respect to female soldiers in the Imperial army. [yes a simply head change solves this]

That being said, I am usually hesitant of posting anything negative against nostalgic recreations because it may hurt those who wish recreations of there favorite sets down the road . i.e. Lego might call us ungrateful or what have you . Like Pirates of Barracuda bay I will be purchasing this on release day like many here and will probably MOC it to my specs . 

 

Edited June 16, 2023 by CAESARBLACK

[LegoAUT]

On 6/15/2023 at 2:49 PM, F1stzz said:

I'm not sure why TLG went with a combo of white regular 1x2 plate & a couple of dark red rounded ones with open studs (3023 & 35480 respectively) in various parts of the build instead of just using a single dark red modified 1x2 brick with masonry profile (98283 on BL for that one). They've basically used 3 separate bricks every time they could've used a single one to achieve the same effect, lol.

Well, it‘s not the same effect though, is it? The one TLG opted for here looks much more refined than stacking brick on brick. They apparently took some inspiration from MOC builders and other companies who try to create more realistic walls.