42159 Yamaha MT-10 SP

[2GodBDGlory]

3 hours ago, dustblue said:

No I don't think they are compatible, the groove on 3 L ring is deeper. use 2 L new ring with wave selector would make them much more easier to detach from each other.(old 3L ring is already easy to detach from the wave selector if the build is not sturdy enough)

Seriously, Lego? I had really thought should work! Definitely limits its uses then

3 hours ago, dustblue said:

I don't think so. Problem is the hook itself is too soft too thin, the blue part is not the problem.

Hmm, ok. Well, it is what it is! I'm still looking forward to getting my hands on them!

[astyanax]

13 hours ago, dustblue said:

Problem is the hook itself is too soft too thin, the blue part is not the problem.

Is it possible to use 2 hooks on opposite sides of 1 driving ring, for a more firm hold? 

[gyenesvi]

13 hours ago, dustblue said:

No I don't think they are compatible, the groove on 3 L ring is deeper.

So I guess you have not tried yet. Do you have a wave selector to try? If those two weren't compatible, that would be the biggest bummer of the year. I don't think they are that stupid at Lego to not make it compatible.

Quote

use 2 L new ring with wave selector would make them much more easier to detach from each other.

Do you mean the wave selector could pop out from the groove?

Quote

old 3L ring is already easy to detach from the wave selector if the build is not sturdy enough

I found it quite impossible to detach for the applications I needed it. Of course the framing has to be sturdy (inseparable in that direction, on both ends of the gearbox). And the shorter driving ring just makes that build more sturdy, as the axle that holds the wave selector is shorter and can bend less.

Edited September 18, 2023 by gyenesvi

[Daan1234]

On 9/15/2023 at 11:41 PM, williamyzfr1 said:

It doesn't get stuck for any other gear change so I don't think it would change for 3rd back to 2nd but thanks for the reply.

UPDATE: Strangely 24 hours later ALL the gearchanges are performing perfectly ????

If you look closely at the gear indicator (you have to remove fairing to see it properly), you will observe that it can only get stuck between 2nd and 3rd gear. See photo below. For some reason, they placed the gear indicator dangerously close to some part of the frame. There is an extremely small margin between both black parts, and sometimes I can see them touching. This only happens between 2nd and 3rd.

 

[dustblue]

1 hour ago, astyanax said:

Is it possible to use 2 hooks on opposite sides of 1 driving ring, for a more firm hold? 

nope, it holds 3/4 of the ring so no space

1 hour ago, gyenesvi said:

So I guess you have not tried yet. Do you have a wave selector to try? If those two weren't compatible, that would be the biggest bummer of the year. I don't think they are that stupid at Lego to not make it compatible.

Do you mean the wave selector could pop out from the groove?

I found it quite impossible to detach for the applications I needed it. Of course the framing has to be sturdy (inseparable in that direction, on both ends of the gearbox). And the shorter driving ring just makes that build more sturdy, as the axle that holds the wave selector is shorter and can bend less.

Sorry I didn't try put them together, because I don't want to tear the gearbox down yet. But since I have all the parts by my hand I can have a pretty good estimation, I took more photos and uploaded here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1zjbJZIW18TFNwHwXXQR7grqEwignfjVb?usp=drive_link

Hope those can help you.Just pay attention on how deep the groove on old ring is and how shallow the new one is. Still you always have the option to buy the set and confirm yourself. 

Edited September 18, 2023 by dustblue

[gyenesvi]

1 hour ago, dustblue said:

I took more photos and uploaded here: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1zjbJZIW18TFNwHwXXQR7grqEwignfjVb?usp=drive_link

Thanks for the photos, (un)fortunately, that does not do a good comparison, as they are not side by side, so there is still hope :) My concerns are not exactly the depth, but rather whether it even fits inside in the first place.

1 hour ago, dustblue said:

Still you always have the option to buy the set and confirm yourself. 

That's exactly what I want to avoid :) Hoping that somebody else will test these out before I buy parts separately.

[allanp]

On 9/17/2023 at 5:57 PM, dustblue said:

Agreed.

It's mostly my personal taste, I like roaring big power. To achieve this in lego, I have to think of many different ways and conquer different problems, for me that's the fun part.  

Edit: nevermind, I'm being dumb!

Edited September 19, 2023 by allanp

[Jeroen Ottens]

On 9/17/2023 at 8:50 PM, dustblue said:

No I don't think they are compatible, the groove on 3 L ring is deeper. use 2 L new ring with wave selector would make them much more easier to detach from each other.(old 3L ring is already easy to detach from the wave selector if the build is not sturdy enough)

They are compatible, just tested it

[dustblue]

54 minutes ago, Jeroen Ottens said:

They are compatible, just tested it

I happen to disembled the gearbox for the 24 toogh gear with clutch, and my conclustion is the same. New ring groove is too shallow to handle any serious torque, you can put it with the wave selector and make it work, just much more easier to fail than the old ring. And by my defination that is not compatible.

Also with the old ring and 3 L connector, you can lock it in place by a "click", with this new one it was locked by the 8 teeth yellow big gear and rubber band + beam in Yamaha design, if you pair the new ring with the old orange wave seletor, you gotta figure out a new way to lock it in place yourself. 

But in the end it's lego, you just do whatever you want with whatever way you can do. don't let a word of "compatible" or not restrain you:)

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by dustblue

[2GodBDGlory]

Thanks for the information! I'm glad they're at least partially compatible, but I guess I'll probably have to test it myself someday to have a "hands-on" feel for how strong that is.

[gyenesvi]

Thanks for the images, it seems promising, though I am a bit more worried about the friction, it seems to be too much squeezed onto the gear.

7 hours ago, dustblue said:

I happen to disembled the gearbox for the 24 toogh gear with clutch, and my conclustion is the same. New ring groove is too shallow to handle any serious torque, you can put it with the wave selector and make it work, just much more easier to fail than the old ring. And by my defination that is not compatible.

Not sure why the ring groove would have to handle serious torque? I don't think there's much torque acting in that direction, pushing the ring out of the gear (as it is perpendicular to the spinning direction, and that's where the lot of torque acts), a small obstacle can be enough to keep it in place. In case of manual gearboxes, the ridges on the connector on which the ring is sitting is enough to keep it in place most of the time. True that under much torque, after getting some wear it would click. But the wave selector is definitely going to hold it better than the connector's ridges.

Quote

Also with the old ring and 3 L connector, you can lock it in place by a "click", with this new one it was locked by the 8 teeth yellow big gear and rubber band + beam in Yamaha design, if you pair the new ring with the old orange wave seletor, you gotta figure out a new way to lock it in place yourself.

That's really easy: the gearbox motor will lock the orange selector in place.

BTW, I guess this piece is not compatible with the old 2L ridged connectors..? That would also lock it in place by a click. But the ring does not seem to have openings in the middle, those would be required for that click. So I guess this ring is not going to work for a manual gearbox with the red changeover catch..

Edited September 20, 2023 by gyenesvi

[dustblue]

19 minutes ago, gyenesvi said:

Not sure why the ring groove would have to handle serious torque? I don't think there's much torque acting in that direction, pushing the ring out of the gear (as it is perpendicular to the spinning direction, and that's where the lot of torque acts), a small obstacle can be enough to keep it in place. In case of manual gearboxes, the ridges on the connector on which the ring is sitting is enough to keep it in place most of the time. True that under much torque, after getting some wear it would click. But the wave selector is definitely going to hold it better than the connector's ridges.

That's really easy: the gearbox motor will lock the orange selector in place.

BTW, I guess this piece is not compatible with the old 2L ridged connectors..? That would also lock it in place by a click. But the ring does not seem to have openings in the middle, those would be required for that click. So I guess this ring is not going to work for a manual gearbox with the red changeover catch..

Because under torque the ring would be pushed out of the clutch, and it would also be hard to put it in the gear in the first place.  However You have to have a real load in your system to test the robustness in your setup, just running it idle won't show you any serious problems. Contiuous load is not easy to build, I use a propeller, I can generate 300 grams down force with it, imagine the load.(FYI this force can lift DJI Mavic mini drones)

And a gear box motor can not really hold it in position in heavy load, unless you use a worm gear.

For you question do you mean this one?

You can put it in, it's very loose. but no, no click.

 

 

[2GodBDGlory]

50 minutes ago, gyenesvi said:

Thanks for the images, it seems promising, though I am a bit more worried about the friction, it seems to be too much squeezed onto the gear.

Not sure why the ring groove would have to handle serious torque? I don't think there's much torque acting in that direction, pushing the ring out of the gear

Honestly, I think that's usually the primary problem I've had with building RC MOCs with gearboxes! You can brace all the gears perfectly, but in the end, the point of least resistance has always been having the driving ring pop out of the gear, each time their internal teeth would mesh. I wonder how having the eight teeth on the new part would affect it, though! With twice as many teeth, it would have to be popping out twice as often, which might cause enough resistance to keep it in better. Who knows!

[AVCampos]

10 minutes ago, 2GodBDGlory said:

With twice as many teeth, it would have to be popping out twice as often, which might cause enough resistance to keep it in better. Who knows!

Or maybe it would take twice as much force to able to pop out twice as many teeth. I'm not sure either.

[2GodBDGlory]

1 hour ago, AVCampos said:

Or maybe it would take twice as much force to able to pop out twice as many teeth. I'm not sure either.

The thing is, the gear still only has four teeth, so the amount of engagement is still the same

[Krxlion]

3 hours ago, 2GodBDGlory said:

Honestly, I think that's usually the primary problem I've had with building RC MOCs with gearboxes! You can brace all the gears perfectly, but in the end, the point of least resistance has always been having the driving ring pop out of the gear, each time their internal teeth would mesh. I wonder how having the eight teeth on the new part would affect it, though! With twice as many teeth, it would have to be popping out twice as often, which might cause enough resistance to keep it in better. Who knows!

I've tested 3 different gearbox systems in my Lego WIP Frontliner powered by A2212 BM. I seriously couldn't achieve reliable two-speed gearbox. First gear was working fine almost in every build, but when I tried switch to second, cracking noises are all around when pushing model to 50-70% of power. The thing that @dustblue said about pushing the clutch out of clutch gear is 100% accurate, the speed of brushless motor is simply too big. I finally gave up on this topic and simply build the car without gearbox, which means less weight, less "play" or loose end of the whole drivetrain. I think what Zerobricks did with his 4x4 recent MOC pushed Lego Technic gearbox system to like 99% of its limits.

 

 

[SNIPE]

Why not just make the lever itself click rather than the clutch and inner sleeve, if youre using some sort of rotary changeover catch then you pretty much don't need the click anyhow.

Edited September 20, 2023 by SNIPE

[dustblue]

1 hour ago, Krxlion said:

I've tested 3 different gearbox systems in my Lego WIP Frontliner powered by A2212 BM. I seriously couldn't achieve reliable two-speed gearbox. First gear was working fine almost in every build, but when I tried switch to second, cracking noises are all around when pushing model to 50-70% of power. The thing that @dustblue said about pushing the clutch out of clutch gear is 100% accurate, the speed of brushless motor is simply too big. I finally gave up on this topic and simply build the car without gearbox, which means less weight, less "play" or loose end of the whole drivetrain. I think what Zerobricks did with his 4x4 recent MOC pushed Lego Technic gearbox system to like 99% of its limits.

 

 

Absolutely. However most people play lego technic with very small power motors, look at all these official sets, no one even use more than 2xL motors for the drivetrain(correct me if I'm wrong), which is equal to just one buggy motor power. When you play with 4 buggy motors or even more, things are very very different. I cant even imagine using rc brushless in lego through lego gearbox, one rc brushless can have 2000 watts transient power, that would melt any plastic beam holes...

 

Nothing wrong with small power though, it's us who are like maniacs using big power in plastic lego

[gyenesvi]

Yeah I understand it can be problematic with 4 buggy motors, but with 1-2 L motors it cand efinitelt be useful. My assumption would be that it’s the smaller scales where you really need to spare that 1 stud of length out of the gearbox. For bigger models you can just probably fit the 3L ring.

Another area of potential use of the 2L ring would be a diff lock, there usually there is no space for the 3L ring. I wonder how important torque resistance is in that case.. Do you think the diff lock puts much torque on driving ring, it being pushed out of the diff?

[2GodBDGlory]

23 minutes ago, gyenesvi said:

Yeah I understand it can be problematic with 4 buggy motors, but with 1-2 L motors it cand efinitelt be useful. My assumption would be that it’s the smaller scales where you really need to spare that 1 stud of length out of the gearbox. For bigger models you can just probably fit the 3L ring.

Another area of potential use of the 2L ring would be a diff lock, there usually there is no space for the 3L ring. I wonder how important torque resistance is in that case.. Do you think the diff lock puts much torque on driving ring, it being pushed out of the diff?

That's a good point--big, powerful, MOCs can probably fit the big ring, and I don't expect you'd have trouble with using it in a diff lock mechanism

[dustblue]

8 hours ago, gyenesvi said:

Yeah I understand it can be problematic with 4 buggy motors, but with 1-2 L motors it cand efinitelt be useful. My assumption would be that it’s the smaller scales where you really need to spare that 1 stud of length out of the gearbox. For bigger models you can just probably fit the 3L ring.

Another area of potential use of the 2L ring would be a diff lock, there usually there is no space for the 3L ring. I wonder how important torque resistance is in that case.. Do you think the diff lock puts much torque on driving ring, it being pushed out of the diff?

I think diff lock has very low load, the lock simply hold the wheel still that runs in the air. it should work there

[R4ph]

For anyone in the UK looking for a good deal, it's a £156 at Smyth and there is £12 off until saturday making it £144 instead of £200 rrp

[Zerobricks]

Since the new ring now has a smaller diameter than the normal 3L ring, can a 16 tooth gear spin next to the new ring when placed on a 3L beam? Can someone test?

[Ngoc Nguyen]

I also have a question about the Yamaha driving ring: does the orange wave selector work with it?

[2GodBDGlory]

1 hour ago, Ngoc Nguyen said:

I also have a question about the Yamaha driving ring: does the orange wave selector work with it?

If you take a scroll up to Sept 20 or so, there was a bit of discussion about that.

I think the upshot was that it can work, but it might not engage firmly enough for high-torque applications