42146 - Liebherr LR 13000 MODs and Improvements

[Aleh]

On 12/21/2023 at 8:23 PM, R0Sch said:

Thanks to the immense help from @Timorzelorzworz and @C3technic, I was finally able to do some digital tinkering on this stubble crane.
Here's a size comparison between the extended version by 10 truss-modules (inspired by @Lego Tom) and the original crane. The difference is day and night in regards to looks. In shown position the dimensions are height 1.7m vs. 1m. and width 1.6m vs. 1.2m.




 

My tiny opinion or unasked sugggestion is to create an additional outer counterweight like it is in the most real cranes. And maybe shorten a bit the superctructure couterweight to get in scale :)

[vanczakp]

thats my plan, with automatic selfbalancing :) I wanna finish first the original's programming then comes the new desing. Im trying to relay only on two sets, max 5-10 other parts only. Will share the design and progress, hopefully as MOC

On 1/7/2024 at 5:12 PM, allanp said:

Nice MODs, though the original instructions shows 4M axles being used.

indeed, I messed it up. But I assembled it without any problem so I dont knwo where I used the longer ones :D

[howitzer]

I just obtained the set today and first I'm going to build to the instructions, but then I'd be interested in doing some modifications.

First and most obvious thing to do is of course extending the booms and increasing counterweight to balance it properly (probably with some non-Lego weights).

Also, as there's unused motor slot in the hub of the superstructure I'd be curious to replicate the Liebherr V-frame using it and some linear actuators, which would allow repositioning of the ballast on the fly. It would be interesting to have the crane balance automatically by adjusting the ballast depending on the load. Thoughts?

Here's some more info on the system: https://www.liebherr.com/en/int/products/mobile-and-crawler-cranes/customer-magazine/all-about-cranes/v-frame.html

[mdemerchant]

5 hours ago, howitzer said:

Also, as there's unused motor slot in the hub of the superstructure I'd be curious to replicate the Liebherr V-frame using it and some linear actuators, which would allow repositioning of the ballast on the fly. It would be interesting to have the crane balance automatically by adjusting the ballast depending on the load. Thoughts?

In theory this would be easy to do using just the tilt of the superstructure but I'm not sure the hubs have enough angle precision to make it work well.  You could also do it with something like the load sensor mechanism the model already has which may work better.  I don't think the V frame is actually available for the LR13000 if you're going for realism but it will look cool and be fun to build so go for it and show us photos   I was actually thinking of building an LR11000 as a future project mainly to do the V frame.

[howitzer]

6 hours ago, mdemerchant said:

In theory this would be easy to do using just the tilt of the superstructure but I'm not sure the hubs have enough angle precision to make it work well.  You could also do it with something like the load sensor mechanism the model already has which may work better.  I don't think the V frame is actually available for the LR13000 if you're going for realism but it will look cool and be fun to build so go for it and show us photos   I was actually thinking of building an LR11000 as a future project mainly to do the V frame.

Yeah, I guess the best bet would be to use the load sensor in the original model, though I'd have to find out how exactly it works.

I'm not really going for realism, so the exact model designation isn't that important for me. I don't think I'd be able to replicate either model accurately enough anyway to really distinguish them.

[mdemerchant]

4 hours ago, howitzer said:

Yeah, I guess the best bet would be to use the load sensor in the original model, though I'd have to find out how exactly it works.

It's also just using the tilt reading from the hub but the linkage makes the hub tilt more than the rest of the superstructure does.  The control may be slightly more complicated/less good with the load sensor because you can't just control it to have zero tilt.  You probably need to have just open loop control based on the sensor reading and some math.  But if you just put the hub in the superstructure and use tilt I'd be worried about it having very little precision and the counterweight position constantly hunting all over the place.  I guess you can put some coding in the control loop to minimize that.

[nerdsforprez]

I am also interested in the possibility of using the V frame, for either the LR13000 or 11000.  Yes, keep us posted of your progress.  

Still nothing has been presented to me to warrant enough interest to justify the cost of this set.  But.... using the V frame system just might.... 

 

[R0Sch]

@howitzer, @nerdsforprez Maybe you forgot about the mod posted a few pages back on the V frame?

 

[nerdsforprez]

Ah!  I had not seen it.  I have been away for some time and did not read all the way back.  Thxs for alerting me.  

 

@howitzerand @Marno I guess great minds think alike?  

[howitzer]

22 hours ago, R0Sch said:

@howitzer, @nerdsforprez Maybe you forgot about the mod posted a few pages back on the V frame?

 

Oh, I hadn't seen this either. Going to take a good look on @Marno's photos and think about making my own version later when I have finished building the original. Thanks for bringing it up @R0Sch!

[vanczakp]

Hi everyone. I just finished my version of LR13000. My goal was to have a working derrick boom with floating ballast. Total 10 motors, 3 hubs, both track has two drives, turntable motor is now belongs to the top structure.

I started with the fullest design but it was way too tall for my apartement (210cm). So I have reduced the jib by two elements and the main boom by one. Unfortunately the whole boom is light so having bigger spanner holder ?boom? or whatewere the name of what the cylinders hold is not possible in order to keep the boom's center of gravity in front of the superstructure connection.

What is more than two sets: few 2L nad 8L axles, few bushings and the four cylinder (there are two at the A frame of derrick boom tilt control)

Now comes the programing, two tilt sensor required for the derrick and main boom then the balancing is going to be automatic and will be playable (nut sure how much fun it will be as it is very sensitive and complex).

 

Details - the cylinders are only for visuals.

 

Here is the max size:

 

[Lego Tom]

1 hour ago, vanczakp said:

Hi everyone. I just finished my version of LR13000. My goal was to have a working derrick boom with floating ballast. Total 10 motors, 3 hubs, both track has two drives, turntable motor is now belongs to the top structure.

I started with the fullest design but it was way too tall for my apartement (210cm). So I have reduced the jib by two elements and the main boom by one. Unfortunately the whole boom is light so having bigger spanner holder ?boom? or whatewere the name of what the cylinders hold is not possible in order to keep the boom's center of gravity in front of the superstructure connection.

What is more than two sets: few 2L nad 8L axles, few bushings and the four cylinder (there are two at the A frame of derrick boom tilt control)

Now comes the programing, two tilt sensor required for the derrick and main boom then the balancing is going to be automatic and will be playable (nut sure how much fun it will be as it is very sensitive and complex).

 

Details - the cylinders are only for visuals.

 

Here is the max size:

 

Interesting build! Thanks for posting.

[craneson]

Yeah the crane is definite in for improvements  , extending the main and luffer is not coming without new problems like ballast and sideway stability on the rig . the ballast is easy to be solved  but the tracks need to be wider apart  . My moc is standing on a bigger foot  45 wide centre measured and 60 from sprocket to centre sprocket . The track elements have a 1x8 techbeam  and that makes also a more stable centre ballast  . the (main) boom is 15x15 square and 90 studs long . Altough never to become ready , i'm now building and rebuilding the main boom foot  with 8x8 turntables as hinge  where first I was using axles as hinge...  I'm learning too from the LR 13K  . the drive of the slewring in my case is not two  but four drive-sprockets in the ring. this to minimize the pushoff effect . The lego slewring is not like in reality stable enough to drive with one sprocket.  my background is cranes so I can use a lot of reallife solutions out of experience   

[Lego Tom]

20 hours ago, craneson said:

Yeah the crane is definite in for improvements  , extending the main and luffer is not coming without new problems like ballast and sideway stability on the rig . the ballast is easy to be solved  but the tracks need to be wider apart  . My moc is standing on a bigger foot  45 wide centre measured and 60 from sprocket to centre sprocket . The track elements have a 1x8 techbeam  and that makes also a more stable centre ballast  . the (main) boom is 15x15 square and 90 studs long . Altough never to become ready , i'm now building and rebuilding the main boom foot  with 8x8 turntables as hinge  where first I was using axles as hinge...  I'm learning too from the LR 13K  . the drive of the slewring in my case is not two  but four drive-sprockets in the ring. this to minimize the pushoff effect . The lego slewring is not like in reality stable enough to drive with one sprocket.  my background is cranes so I can use a lot of reallife solutions out of experience   

I'm not sure which would be better - to move the tracks out further, add another set to make them wider or maybe both? IIRC (too lazy to go look) the tracks on the D11 are wider so using those may help as well.

[howitzer]

1 hour ago, Lego Tom said:

I'm not sure which would be better - to move the tracks out further, add another set to make them wider or maybe both? IIRC (too lazy to go look) the tracks on the D11 are wider so using those may help as well.

Yeah, they are 7L as opposed to 5L in the Liebherr. But they are also made of softer material which would bend under load and thus not provide the sideways stability desired from wider tracks.

[craneson]

but you have to make the tracks not only individualy wider , but also more apart from eachother .  and unlike the 90 kg baslan crane , one of my rules is to stay light

Edited April 8, 2024 by craneson

[riverprawn]

My version which replicates the SDWVB combination.

 

Edited May 23, 2024 by riverprawn

[Lego Tom]

18 hours ago, riverprawn said:

My version which replicates the SDWVB combination.

 

Nice! How about some detail photos of counter balance system?

[vanczakp]

Hello All,

 

If you want to control your crane with an XBOX controller, then check this one below, what my program can do! This is what Lego should have been offered as default.

Requires pybrick firmwares on technic hubs and xbox wireless controller.

Enjoy the play!

The program features:

• Graphic user manual
• full analogue control of all drives,
• one or two stick tank control of tracks,
• end position stop of booms and hoist (when calibration is done),
• weight overload warning
• 5 speed and acceleration (independet for bottom and top drives) profiles
• 7 different control profiles

user manual: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yNPlUU21MBLIsvtXWUudXyAViKVK9qEf/view?usp=sharing

more info, pybricks program: https://github.com/orgs/pybricks/discussions/1866

 

 

other:

I just made the tracks 4 wheel driven! Runs smoothly on soft rugs as well!

 

See more: https://github.com/orgs/pybricks/discussions/1867

Edited October 6, 2024 by vanczakp

[Lego Tom]

Do you have instructions/parts list available?

[vanczakp]

I've been building this LR 12500 version for a month now, comes with V-frame or floating derrick ballast. Superstructure ballast is missing but comes soon. I'll cover the ballast's cable with a 3D printed hidraulic cylinder like something to hide it and make it look like the real.

Im planning to extend the main boom and the luffing jib as well, maybe the derrick boom as well but firtst lets see how the balancing works with the current weight situation. 

4 hubs, 12 motors (7 on top, 5 on bottom) and one tilt sensor. Control with Xbox controller using Pybricks firmware.

On 10/13/2024 at 4:21 PM, Lego Tom said:

Do you have instructions/parts list available?

You already have the instruction: I repeated the two drives assembly steps because I bought two sets of crane. The cable can be routed through the track housing. It runs soo smooth and the crane become so enjoyable, even with this double sized heavy monster (see my post above)

Edited November 7, 2024 by vanczakp
spelling

[MisterB]

gm all, purchased 2 sets so that i can make the original model and a more extended one.

Looking back in this thread i guess some more counterweight might be of good use to start with .. so i was thinking of modifying the original counterweight plates by removing (saw / dremel) the middle part, glue them together on top of a non modified plate, fill the empty middle with some real weight (iron / lead tbd) and see how it all balances out.. and off course longer beams , slower movement etc -- i guess some programming using pybricks etc

Edited November 30, 2024 by MisterB

[Bubbha]

Hi everyone, i'm building 42146 in these days, i found a huge discount that convinced me to buy a c+ set.

I hate c+, so i'm thinking to convert It to Power functions, has anyone of you already made It?

Do you have any suggest or ideas about that conversion?

Thank you

 

[Ngoc Nguyen]

23 minutes ago, Bubbha said:

Hi everyone, i'm building 42146 in these days, i found a huge discount that convinced me to buy a c+ set.

I hate c+, so i'm thinking to convert It to Power functions, has anyone of you already made It?

Do you have any suggest or ideas about that conversion?

Thank you

I did think of it, but I haven't tried it. I don't plan to do so either because I don't like this set and I don't want to buy this set only to test a PF conversion mod. However, I did give it a few thoughts for PF Conversion, and I think it will be much more complicated then simply swapping motors.

The biggest problem is that the output of PF L-motor does not provide as much torque as that of the Large Angular Motor does, so in order for the L motor to replace the Large Angular Motor there needs to be a lot of gearing down. I tackled that problem in the 42131 PF Conversion as that model also uses two Large Angular Motors for drive, and this is how much gearing down one L motor need in order to replace one Large Angular Motor for one track drive.

 

The ratio from motor output to the planetary hub is (12/20)*(16/20)^3*(12/20) = 0.18432. And even with that much gearing down, the bulldozer can only move forward reliably, as it has problems moving backwards, even though I'm not sure if that's because insufficient gearing or another problem. 

Regardless, such amount of gearing down requires lots of space, obviously more than the space for just one Large Angular Motor. Within the confines of the 42131, it was quite a struggle to figure out where to put all the gears, because there are 4 linear actuators and a battery box around that area, and because I don't want to make too many changes to the original structure. I haven't built the 42146 digitally so I don't know how accomodating the structure is for all of that gearing down, but I think it's gonna be a tough job.

 

[Bubbha]

58 minutes ago, Ngoc Nguyen said:

I did think of it, but I haven't tried it. I don't plan to do so either because I don't like this set and I don't want to buy this set only to test a PF conversion mod. However, I did give it a few thoughts for PF Conversion, and I think it will be much more complicated then simply swapping motors.

The biggest problem is that the output of PF L-motor does not provide as much torque as that of the Large Angular Motor does, so in order for the L motor to replace the Large Angular Motor there needs to be a lot of gearing down. I tackled that problem in the 42131 PF Conversion as that model also uses two Large Angular Motors for drive, and this is how much gearing down one L motor need in order to replace one Large Angular Motor for one track drive.

 

The ratio from motor output to the planetary hub is (12/20)*(16/20)^3*(12/20) = 0.18432. And even with that much gearing down, the bulldozer can only move forward reliably, as it has problems moving backwards, even though I'm not sure if that's because insufficient gearing or another problem. 

Regardless, such amount of gearing down requires lots of space, obviously more than the space for just one Large Angular Motor. Within the confines of the 42131, it was quite a struggle to figure out where to put all the gears, because there are 4 linear actuators and a battery box around that area, and because I don't want to make too many changes to the original structure. I haven't built the 42146 digitally so I don't know how accomodating the structure is for all of that gearing down, but I think it's gonna be a tough job.

 

Hi, thank you for your reply, i was thinking to use XL motors for drive and rotating boom due to it's torque and slower Speed (the boom rotation Is too fast for a Crane like that). There are many empty parts in the structure, maybe it's tricky to keep It strong as It Is now, placing all the gears inside.

For the overstructure, i would try to use One XL with a gearbox that switch between the three functions.

For now, i have to finish the set, but i'm sure i'll be tired of c+ soon.

Anyway, big thanks for your help.