[CONTEST] How can we make future contests BIGGER and BETTER and MORE EXCITING?? 💥

[Yoggington]

A direct question for you @Mister Phes - where did the prize pool come from here? As in, were they provided by the Lego group in some way, or user donations, or out of your own pocket?

If from TLG, was it just a once-off donation due to the release of Eldorado Fortress? Or is this some LUG benefit of some kind?

 

I ask because I'd love to be able to estimate what kind of pipeline of future prizes could become available. There's a big difference in the approach of trying to plan a occasional contest versus one that occurs with some frequency.

[Yperio_Bricks]

29 minutes ago, Mister Phes said:

Yes, I agree and I certainly wouldn't repeat that theme for a future contest any time soon.

But in this scenario, Eldorado Fortress was being released and it seemed fitting to demonstrate to the LEGO Group and AFOLs how other classic LEGO Pirate sets could be modernised or conceptualised.

I wanted stir nostalgia and excitement for the official sets and reactions like when @Yperio_Bricks expressed dissatisfaction regarding the upcoming LEGO Creator Pirates GWP 40597

 

What i wanted to say is, that many of the designs we had in the contest were much better than the upcomming LEGO Pirates GWP in my opinion. So with all the resources and being the biggest toy company in the world they come up with poor sets like the aforementioned GWP when hobbyists come up with much better designs. I have one particular entry in mind of which i think LEGO could just take it and 1:1 make it a set!

[Mister Phes]

5 minutes ago, Yoggington said:

A direct question for you @Mister Phes - where did the prize pool come from here? As in, were they provided by the Lego group in some way, or user donations, or out of your own pocket?

The LEGO Group provided the prizes for this contest as part of ongoing arrangement with Eurobricks.

5 minutes ago, Yoggington said:

 I ask because I'd love to be able to estimate what kind of pipeline of future prizes could become available.

@Clone OPatra may have some insight into how often we can hold contests.

7 minutes ago, Yperio_Bricks said:

What i wanted to say is, that many of the designs we had in the contest were much better than the upcomming LEGO Pirates GWP in my opinion.

And that is why it seemed important to lead by example!

7 minutes ago, Yperio_Bricks said:

I have one particular entry in mind of which i think LEGO could just take it and 1:1 make it a set!

Which entry be that?

[Yperio_Bricks]

1 minute ago, Mister Phes said:

Which entry be that?

[F1stzz]

51 minutes ago, Mister Phes said:

Incorrect.  This topic was intended from the very beginning. 

I do remember MstrOfPppts stating he wanted to create a separate topic after the end of the event to discuss some things he finds to be iffy within the contest. I do remember myself agreeing to participate in such talks & emphasized that creation of such topic will help us all to put focus on problems as well as I remember you addressing our proposition with an approval. Also I did say "partially". So here we are, and I thank you for creating this topic & providing all of us the opportunity to have an in-depth convo on what  has worked fine, what went not exactly as planned and how things could be fixed moving forward, truly appreciate that 🤝 

[durazno33]

F1Stzz makes a lot of good points. Thanks for taking the time to put your thoughts into words.

Now for something to make the competition better. Part of being a good leader is being able to have difficult conversations while staying in control of one's words and exercising restraint. Doing this helps keep the conversation, if not friendly, at least civil. That being said, statements like this from the leader of the competition are neither civil nor in control.  I started the conversation asking for details on the decision making process and was answered with distain and scorn as if I had personally attacked him. 

Not quite sure how to quote from a different thread so just putting this in quotes

Quote

That's all I had time for.

But it seemed unnecessary to update because the leaderboard didn't change much after that point.

In another post

But perhaps my previous post wasn't direct enough, so I'll be less eloquent; you ran like a coward at the first sign of trouble while other critics stayed for the long haul, regardless of the unpleasant situation.  Of the 80 days the Creative Critic was open, you only posted on 4 of those days, whereas some critics were active for almost 2 months.  So that lack of commitment and poor character was what eliminated you as a contender for the prize.  And on top of that you're whining about wasting your time, despite demonstrating considerably less engagement than the highest performing critics.

Does that elaboration provide sufficient feedback for future improvement? Or are you going to run away again?

I'm pretty sure the second statement is a violation of the Eurobricks TOS. If the leader of the competition had read my comment, he would have seen that I was not making any claim that I won but on the contrary, I wanted to see how well I did as a way to do some personal assessment and reflection. Instead of simply providing a statement declining to provide the scores, he inferred that the critic judging competition was over on August 20th as that was the last date of any feedback on the critics despite the many entries and comments that were given afterward.  This wasn't helpful to me or to help sooth confidences that other participants might have in his decision making process. His words and actions speak for themselves. 

Edited September 26, 2023 by durazno33

[BrynnOfCastlegate]

On 9/25/2023 at 8:28 PM, F1stzz said:

What @BrynnOfCastlegate is supposed to feel, when he sees that his perfectly compliant with the rules 6269 Islander Palace is being surpassed by The Brick Stop's behemoth, which, while being a truly grand & wonderful build, doesn't quite meet the given requirements? 

Thank you for your sympathy.

18 hours ago, Mister Phes said:

On 9/26/2023 at 1:15 AM, MstrOfPppts said:

Build an official set is a very bad theme.

Yes, I agree and I certainly wouldn't repeat that theme for a future contest any time soon.

Pity, because that is why I entered. I love seeing other people's MOCs, but for various reasons, I can't/don't want to build huge models in that style. Creating a set, however, was something I could do.  We "new sets" still got outvoted by the "re-releases", though, as I suspected we would.

[F1stzz]

17 hours ago, durazno33 said:

F1Stzz makes a lot of good points. Thanks for taking the time to put your thoughts into words.

Appreciate it, man 🤜🤛 And yeah, it's quite unfortunate that you've made 9 (!) video reviews for the CC contest (something that hasn't been done by anyone, btw, & what has been noticed by the Governor, I believe), but was called a "coward" with a "poor character" only bcuz apparently you haven't generated as much traffic as others :>

17 hours ago, durazno33 said:

[..]he inferred that the critic judging competition was over on August 20th as that was the last date of any feedback on the critics despite the many entries and comments that were given afterward.

While that is true & the final date for critics to finalize their work was set to September 16, there was a topic created by the Governor to "critique the critics" (I guess this is how it was planned to "review" all the participants work and "provide the feedback" on it — by letting community members themselves do the job ). Few comments left in there actually make an impression of iragm bringing the most valuable critique & feedback on the entries. Perhaps his miscalculations were the same as yours, hence why he wasn't even mentioned as the runner-up in the final report 🤷🏻‍♂️

23 minutes ago, BrynnOfCastlegate said:

Thank you for your sympathy.

You're more than welcome  Your "Islander Palace" is truly a magnificent work of art & a prime example of how entries should've been designed like in general according to the rules we've had.

23 minutes ago, BrynnOfCastlegate said:

Creating a set, however, was something I could do.  

And as God as my witness have you succeeded  Your approach to the task was second to none IMO: the way you've dived into researching a parts selection available at the time period when the Islanders were produced, how you've pulled the 1995 catalogues from your collection to make the artworks for the set as realistic as possible — all of it just screams "passion & dedication"   Truly the entry that totally captured & conveyed the zeitgeist  

[Rogue Redcoat]

I'm gonna try and sum this all up...

Here's what most people agree on,

1. The template for creating a set that Lego would make was not the best, since there is no clear definition of what is classic and what makes it too much like a MOC.
2. The greatest idea so far was the small set category this allows for people to create something even if they don't have a lot of pieces.
3. The creative critic was too generous of a prize, it only engaged some of the builders most just said thanks for the feedback and moved on. 
4. The rules need to be clear and enforced since there were too many exceptions in this contest, if people really want to win the contest they will follow the rules!
5. Voting, there needs to be a rule stating that you have to have 10 or 20 posts for voting to be legitimate. 

There, I think I have covered it all except digital entries could some of you make your opinion clear before I add this 

[Mister Phes]

On 9/27/2023 at 2:37 AM, durazno33 said:

If the leader of the competition had read my comment, he would have seen that I was not making any claim that I won

There seems to have be a miscommunication because I never interpreted your posts as making such a claim.  I just clarified why you didn't win.

 

On 9/27/2023 at 2:37 AM, durazno33 said:

Instead of simply providing a statement declining to provide the scores, he inferred that the critic judging competition was over on August 20th as that was the last date of any feedback on the critics despite the many entries and comments that were given afterward.

That's certainly not the case, I was not inferring the judging critic competition concluded on August 20th, rather an update was intended on September 3 but preparing to publish the building entries consumed all the time.

It was literally 3 in the morning and mental exhaustion had set in from working on collateral all day, so I had to call it night and weekend was over.

But you have proclivity for twisting my words, whether this is deliberate or caused by factors like language barrier, I'm not yet certain.
 

On 9/27/2023 at 2:37 AM, durazno33 said:

I wanted to see how well I did as a way to do some personal assessment and reflection. Instead of simply providing a statement declining to provide the scores  [...] This wasn't helpful to me or to help sooth confidences that other participants might have in his decision making process. His words and actions speak for themselves. 

It's the way you approached this.  Many of the contest participants have expressed gratitude and appreciation, while some have offered their support for future contests, whereas you've communicated from a place of entitlement.  I.e. you expect a personal assessment because you're owed that for your time.

Yet you've shown no empathy or understanding towards the many hours I've had to spend running the contest, and gone as far to downplay the efforts I did make selecting the critic.

And I agree there should be a deeper analysis and reporting on how the Creative Critic was selected for the benefit of the critics who dedicated themself... and hopefully I can do that when time permits.

But the problem is you seem to be inferring your time is more valuable than my time.  Especially when you mentioned wasting your time, despite only participating on 4 of the 80 days. 

Time wasting works both way.  Is it a wise to invest time in on someone who may disappear without warning? 

However, I have provided you feedback twice but I seem to keep missing the mark...  so let's try a third time:

Improve your sportsmanship and then we can start thinking about providing feedback on your critique.

 

 

 

 

On 9/27/2023 at 9:14 PM, Rogue Redcoat said:

The creative critic was too generous of a prize, it only engaged some of the builders most just said thanks for the feedback and moved on.  

Thank you for your summary!  The purpose of the Creative Critic is to stimulate forum engagement so the contest doesn't result in a forum filled with entry posts that only have 2 or 3 replies.  As is typically the case with Eurobricks contests.  Whether the builders engage with the critics is more of an added bonus.

So the Creative Critic very much fulfilled its purpose and the LEGO Pirates Forum has not been that active since the early 2010s.

[Mister Phes]

On 9/25/2023 at 8:52 PM, Brickshipyard said:

To address Mister Phes overtaxing themselves to run the contest, Eurobricks needs incentivized volunteering and delegation of tasks. [...]  The incentivized part obviously cannot be direct compensation, but maybe exclusive access to a special monthly or quarterly volunteer only raffle with a small prize, plus some sort of frontpage recognition.

A lot of great ideas being shared!

Frontpage recognition is something we already offer to volunteers.

But we did have a far more incentivised approach extent 12-15 years ago when economic conditions were more favourable.  eBay ads provided a generous income which we used to purchased reasonably priced classic sets and the 2008 sets were still retail price.

So any time we wanted something done, we'd make a mini contest out of it.

The first person to complete << insert task >> won a $5.00 8396 Soldiers Arsenal  and BANG!  We'd have 30 people rushing round to get the thing done.

But times have changed and it's not financially viable to do that anymore, so maybe an exclusive monthly or quarterly raffle is feasible.

 

 

 

[Yperio_Bricks]

1 hour ago, Mister Phes said:

So the Creative Critic very much fulfilled its purpose and the LEGO Pirates Forum has not been that active since the early 2010s.

But will the creative critics also write comments when there is no high value prize at stake?

[Mister Phes]

22 minutes ago, Yperio_Bricks said:

But will the creative critics also write comments when there is no high value prize at stake?

Most of them probably won't but that's to be expected. Or am I wrong?  How many have stuck round since the contest has ended?  Some of them are posting in this topic.

Regardless, the Creative Critic is a promotional activity and like all promotional activities, participation will be higher during the promotion.

And the same can be said of building entries because we don't usually experience an influx of Pirate MOCs outside of a contest.

[Yperio_Bricks]

29 minutes ago, Mister Phes said:

And the same can be said of building entries because we don't usually experience an influx of Pirate MOCs outside of a contest.

Touché

[Mister Phes]

18 hours ago, Yperio_Bricks said:

Touché

Aye, but it wasn't intended to be a snarky remark, rather a statement of fact. 

But circling back to your initial question:

On 9/23/2023 at 7:12 PM, Yperio_Bricks said:

I'd like to help! Although i don't know in which role i can be of help I don't plan to enter any contest, so there will be no conflict of interest at least

In what capacity would you like to contribute? 

Just an assistant for contests or an ongoing role? I can certainly introduce you to The Shipyard and we can see where that leads...

 

[Yperio_Bricks]

4 minutes ago, Mister Phes said:

In what capacity would you like to contribute? 

Just an assistant for contests or an ongoing role? I can certainly introduce you to The Shipyard and we can see where that leads...

Maybe you can specify the roles you mentioned in the opening post a little. I'd like to help as best as i can! Like what is a news scout doing or what is a grafic designer doing in the forum?

I can not see the shipyard. I just get an error message. I guess just invitees can see the forum.

[Mister Phes]

2 minutes ago, Yperio_Bricks said:

I can not see the shipyard. I just get an error message. I guess just invitees can see the forum.

Aye, a hidden forum for special contributors.

3 minutes ago, Yperio_Bricks said:

. I'd like to help as best as i can! Like what is a news scout doing or what is a grafic designer doing in the forum?

A News Scout posts Pirate MOCs from the Pirate MOC Forum on the Eurobricks frontpage.

Captain Braunsfeld posts a MOC every Wednesday, but we could use another News Scout to post one over the weekend.

News Scout is a great entry level position because it doesn't require that much work.

8 minutes ago, Yperio_Bricks said:

grafic designer doing in the forum? 

We don't have a graphic designer besides myself but just look at any graphics relating to the recent contest - that kind of thing.

[Yperio_Bricks]

I guess i miss the courage to say that i can do this or that Like, i can do a little photoshop but i am no wizard

[_R_R_]

On 9/27/2023 at 12:14 PM, Rogue Redcoat said:

I'm gonna try and sum this all up...

Here's what most people agree on,

1. The template for creating a set that Lego would make was not the best, since there is no clear definition of what is classic and what makes it too much like a MOC.
2. The greatest idea so far was the small set category this allows for people to create something even if they don't have a lot of pieces.
3. The creative critic was too generous of a prize, it only engaged some of the builders most just said thanks for the feedback and moved on. 
4. The rules need to be clear and enforced since there were too many exceptions in this contest, if people really want to win the contest they will follow the rules!
5. Voting, there needs to be a rule stating that you have to have 10 or 20 posts for voting to be legitimate. 

There, I think I have covered it all except digital entries could some of you make your opinion clear before I add this 

I agree with some points here, there were too many variables for the contest which kind of confused people, so here's my two cents.

Contests should set one clear goal, this one had a lot of branches (remake a classic set, create a classic set, create an original set, improve a set) which confused some and resulted in a lot of entries where I feel the original goal of the contest was lost, some entries that missed the entire point of the contest, beautiful yes but basically highly elaborate MOCs that would never be made into a set. For future contests I would keep it fairly simple and straight to the point, set one goal, max number of pieces and also one entry per person which brings me to my next point.

Some contestants created a lot of entries which was hard to keep track of and quite the task for everyone following the contest. There was also users like MyFirstMOC who took advantage of this and clogged the forum with tons of their entries, so one entry per contestant should be the way to go. Speaking of MFC I would also like to bring your attention to rules.

As you may know there was quite a lot of talk surrounding MyFirstMOC's entries and their dubious votes, a good argument was made that it was likely that fans of MFC saw their entries and decided to create an account solely to vote for them but it was also brought up that one of those accounts shared an IP address with MFC and I don't think MFC or any of their voters ever offered any explanation as to why this was despite logging in to the forums while this was happening. With all that said no action or rules were enforced and the whole thing was kind of swept under the rug which makes the rules seem null and void. If rules are meant to be taken seriously they must be enforced appropriately.

When it comes to voters I definitely agree that anyone voting should have at least 10 posts on their accounts or better yet participate in the contest by offering their feedback or simply leaving a comment on their favorite entries. Creating an account just to make a post to vote for someone is a digital waste of space and not at all what the contest wants which is to create more engagement with new forum members.

I like the creative critic contest and would keep it, it gives folks who aren't that good at MOCs an opportunity to participate and win. 

That's basically it, make contests more simple and easy to follow, enforce rules on contestants and voters.

[Danny_Boy4]

I see some talk about banning digital entries and think definitely not! We need to keep them so people who don't have enough brick and can't afford them can also enter. If I build my MOC IRL then it would has been way smaller and less detailed as I don't have much bricks, also some bricks are quite rare or don't come in the correct color. And what about custom prints which I nedded to for my MOC to look like a real set? 

[Yperio_Bricks]

7 minutes ago, Danny_Boy4 said:

also some bricks are quite rare or don't come in the correct color. And what about custom prints which I nedded to for my MOC to look like a real set? 

But these are problems everybody has no matter if digital or real bricks! Also from my observation, not in this contest so much but in general, digital builds often have a lot of repetitive elements. I don't know how the program works, but if i see the same 10x10 wall section 10 times in the same moc i wonder how much copy and paste is going on. With real bricks you have to build it 10 times with your own hands.

So yeah, maybe there should be seperate categories at least. Or digital entries win digital prizes like a rebrickable voucher

[Marooned Marin]

In regard of real vs. digital...

First scenario (divide and conquer):

Two separate categories is excellent idea, and here is why: if we have two categories then (a builder like myself) can enter both categories with the same build since I build first in digital and then with real bricks, and thus my chances for winning prize raises rapidly.

What's that? Now I hear moans and cries that's not fair, you can enter only one... but wait a minute, how is that fair? I used my CAD knowledge to create something, and then I used my money to build it. Why am I not allowed to compete in two separate categories with the same design after all the effort invested? Mind you, my effort is double than yours.

Before I get hammered down by a lesson on a herd morality - thank you Nietzsche, I'll humour this fairness nonsense and proceed to the second scenario.

Second scenario (call it Tactical competing, like -Tactical voting- only better):

Two separate categories is excellent idea, and here is why: by making two categories, and tyrannically permitting only one per design, a builder like myself can wait and see which category has fewer entries, less winning entries, and then with impeccable timing enter digital or real build category, and thus my chances for winning prize raises rapidly.

Conclusion

Making two separate categories, of us vs. them, solves only one melodramatic problem but at the same time opens another can of worms. So by all means, let's have two categories instead of one.

LEGO Ideas has only one category and the winners are usually those who build the best original design - say... that's an interesting concept!

Proposition

Instead of making two - or ten - categories (where every Tom, Dick, and Harry can feel like a winner), we continue to have one category and focus our time and energy on improving building skills in the medium each of us finds most pleasurable, digital or real - or both, and give our best try each time out.

[iragm]

On 9/27/2023 at 6:35 AM, F1stzz said:

While that is true & the final date for critics to finalize their work was set to September 16, there was a topic created by the Governor to "critique the critics" (I guess this is how it was planned to "review" all the participants work and "provide the feedback" on it — by letting community members themselves do the job ). Few comments left in there actually make an impression of iragm bringing the most valuable critique & feedback on the entries. Perhaps his miscalculations were the same as yours, hence why he wasn't even mentioned as the runner-up in the final report 🤷🏻‍♂️ 

I figured the critic window closed when the contest did.  I'm not bitter at all about not winning; I entered as a critic solely to improve my ability to evaluate MOCs and the critic winner had a more friendly, conversational, informal tone which probably went over better than my somewhat brusk feedback.  It's all good, no hard feelings!

On 9/27/2023 at 1:25 PM, Mister Phes said:

Most of [the critics] probably won't [comment] but that's to be expected. Or am I wrong?  How many have stuck round since the contest has ended?  Some of them are posting in this topic. 

A $215 prize was enough to entice me to participate, and I probably wouldn't have put in much effort for less.  I think it probably took 15 or 20 minutes an entry, but as with all things Lego, it's more about the fun of doing the thing than the money.

If we are being honest, most MOCs fall into either the category of:

• "holy **** that is next level, the build techniques, colors, composition, photography, etc. are all perfect" or
• "that looks like it was built by a 10 year old"

...and there isn't much in between.

In neither case does it make sense for me to spend time composing a reply, because the first category is so far ahead of my skills that there's nothing I can say by way of advice, and the second category is in need of so much help that it's difficult to see the "constructive" for the "criticism".

I do read this forum daily, but I don't comment often for this reason.

 

1 hour ago, Marooned Marin said:

Instead of making two - or ten - categories (where every Tom, Dick, and Harry can feel like a winner), we continue to have one category and focus our time and energy on improving building skills in the medium each of us finds most pleasurable, digital or real - or both, and give our best try each time out. 

I like this idea, although as I have mentioned earlier, I dislike a 5000-brick frigate competing against an imperial outpost with 200 bricks.  I'd like to have at least some general thematic categories.

 

7 hours ago, _R_R_ said:

Contests should set one clear goal, this one had a lot of branches (remake a classic set, create a classic set, create an original set, improve a set) which confused some and resulted in a lot of entries where I feel the original goal of the contest was lost, some entries that missed the entire point of the contest, beautiful yes but basically highly elaborate MOCs that would never be made into a set. For future contests I would keep it fairly simple and straight to the point, set one goal, max number of pieces and also one entry per person which brings me to my next point. 

I 100% agree.

 

7 hours ago, _R_R_ said:

With all that said no action or rules were enforced and the whole thing was kind of swept under the rug which makes the rules seem null and void. If rules are meant to be taken seriously they must be enforced appropriately.

I don't see what should have been done differently in this case -- with stuff like CG-NAT, whole neighborhoods can have the same IP.  If you're going to ban entries for getting multiple votes from the same IP, I could make a bunch of accounts and vote for any designs that are better than mine, wait for the mods to ban them, and win handily.  But obviously future contests need to anticipate stuff like this.

[Mister Phes]

10 hours ago, Yperio_Bricks said:

I guess i miss the courage to say that i can do this or that Like, i can do a little photoshop but i am no wizard

How about to get started we grant you access to The Shipyard so we can help you find your true calling

9 hours ago, _R_R_ said:

Contests should set one clear goal, this one had a lot of branches (remake a classic set, create a classic set, create an original set, improve a set) which confused some and resulted in a lot of entries where I feel the original goal of the contest was lost

I agree there should be one clear goal, however there wasn't supposed to any branches, I assumed I was offering a simple "creative choice" with some flexibility.

I.e. Either remake an existing classic pirate set or invent an entirely new pirate set in the classic style

So in my mind remake a classic set = improve a set and create a classic set = create an original set

But yeah, there's a lot more nuance there and confusion did arise with some assuming there were two separate Main Building categories.

 

[Mister Phes]

9 hours ago, _R_R_ said:

As you may know there was quite a lot of talk surrounding MyFirstMOC's entries and their dubious votes, a good argument was made that it was likely that fans of MFC saw their entries and decided to create an account solely to vote for them but it was also brought up that one of those accounts shared an IP address  [...] With all that said no action or rules were enforced and the whole thing was kind of swept under the rug which makes the rules seem null and void. If rules are meant to be taken seriously they must be enforced appropriately.

That's not accurate; the votes from a couple of the dubious accounts were disqualified and I followed up directly one of the voters and can confirm he is indeed a real person who is not the builder that submitted the entries.

9 hours ago, _R_R_ said:

Creating an account just to make a post to vote for someone is a digital waste of space and not at all what the contest wants which is to create more engagement with new forum members.

I agree with this statement and now we've done the experiment by allowing votes from newly registered members, I confirm it is not worth the complications that arise.

 

9 hours ago, _R_R_ said:

When it comes to voters I definitely agree that anyone voting should have at least 10 posts on their accounts or better yet participate in the contest by offering their feedback or simply leaving a comment on their favorite entries.

I also agree there should be a minimum post requirement to vote.

I was thinking 10 posts minimum if the account was registered prior to the contest announcement, or 20 posts minimum after the contest has been announced.