ASLUME (formerly Batman (DC Superheroes) 2024 - Rumors & Discussion)

[Max_Lego]

7 minutes ago, Murdoch17 said:

I feel as if you completely missed the point of Sheev Palpatine and Star Wars. Sheev engineers a conflict from the ground up to get himself into ultimate power via a war in which he controls everything. He emotionally manipulates Anakin into doing what he KNOWS is wrong and by extension, gets him to the point when Anakin's own wife, Padme, tries to stop him, he kills the one person Skywalker was trying to save. Palpatine also sweeps away the Old Republic with a dictatorship, eventually dissolving the Senate in ANH. He tortures people (such as Luke) when they don't join him, motions Anakin to kill Dooku (who is too blindsided by the betrayal to reveal Sidious to the two heroes) and gives the go ahead to build two literal planet killers - the Death Stars I and II. Sheev also massacres an entire religious order of tens of thousands down to the handful who slip through his grasp... even children are not spared by his own order to Anakin of "Show no mercy". He also wanted to take over his own granddaughters body to keep his spirit from dying!

He is EVIL, pure and simple!

PREQUELS AREN'T CANON! 

[Murdoch17]

1 minute ago, Max_Lego said:

PREQUELS AREN'T CANON! 

No matter what you say, yes - they are. So are the sequels. (much to my chagrin) Also, even if you remove the prequel bits, it's still not looking good for Sheev being on the nice list....

Edited December 2, 2024 by Murdoch17

[Max_Lego]

Just now, Murdoch17 said:

No matter what you say, yes - they are. So are the sequels. (much to my chagrin)

Officially speaking, yes, but I already said that I am developing a headcanon based on the OT - and I can't explain all the conclusions I came up with watching the original three movies immediately. 

Let's just agree that the CIS are utterly evil without any doubt 

[Battlinpanther]

17 hours ago, Mandalorianknight said:

I still can't forgive the new DCU guys for axing Cavill for a "clean slate" then turning around and saying the suicide squad guys are all coming back and that most of the peacemaker show is canon, somehow.

There was like a few month period between the end of the weird post-Snyder hodgepodge and the Gunn announcement where some suit said they had a 10-year plan focused on Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman, and I mean like c'mon that's the obvious move how are we not doing that.

I mean they probably still are going to pump the hell out of Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman… just not Snyder’s versions.

Which I’m fine with. Great castings but their movies were mostly terrible. I can see why a fresh start for the biggest names was preferable. And hopefully we do eventually get Legos of some kind for Superman.

Edited December 2, 2024 by Battlinpanther

[BrickBob Studpants]

Palpatine not being evil is quite the hot take, even if you ignore everything outside the OT. Even in ANH, it's obvious he's an evil puppet master, and he doesn't even show up! What next, is Sauron a good guy too?

[psqidexslizer]

27 minutes ago, BrickBob Studpants said:

Palpatine not being evil is quite the hot take, even if you ignore everything outside the OT. Even in ANH, it's obvious he's an evil puppet master, and he doesn't even show up! What next, is Sauron a good guy too?

Hot take: turning people into dinosaurs is based af.

[ARC2149Nova]

1 hour ago, Max_Lego said:

Let's just agree that the CIS are utterly evil without any doubt 

Dooku and his agents, sure. But the vast majority of the Confederacy were systems tired of Republic corruption and Jedi interference (as pseudo agents of the aforementioned corrupt Republic). The businessmen who controlled the army, and the Geonosians were pretty evil, but not every Separatist was a villain.

[CloneCommando99]

1 hour ago, Max_Lego said:

Let's just agree that the CIS are utterly evil without any doubt 

Counterpoint: the Republic are the side in the Clone Wars that have Anakin, R2D2, Saw Gerrera and Chopper.

 

Empire? Separatists? Republic? Don’t make me laugh. If you need me, I’ll be taking the 7th Fleet to the glorious Chiss Ascendancy.

(Thrawn, Pellaeon, Vanto and Faro be fighting the good fight (almost))

[Swordy]

14 hours ago, Max_Lego said:

Yeah but, like, ourigh enslave them? Isn't it too much?

I’ll jab a finger at the U.S.’s horrific treatment of Japanese-American citizens and leave it there.

14 hours ago, Max_Lego said:

Well, I now think that my "open enemies" statement is a little too much; more like "dangerous tensions".

On this I can agree.

14 hours ago, Max_Lego said:

Yes, it wasn't a military target - yet it doesn't mean it didn't have a military of its own: an Alderaanian military base would've qualified as a military target, but the entire planet didn't.

So either we continue to interpolate, or take Leia’s words at face value. If they’re peaceful, then they’re so, and if not, then Tarkin would’ve called her bluff outright.

14 hours ago, Max_Lego said:

 

By the way, why does everyone believe that Tarkin wanted to destroy the entire moon of Yavin? He obviously only wanted to blow up the Rebel base on the surface.

 

The same reason the U.S. was forced to blow up the whole city of Hiroshima and Nagasaki; despite the civilian regions that weren’t our target, the military production was so deeply embedded that the potential civilian and military casualties became nearly one and the same.

Once again, it’s to send a message to the people across the Empire to purge themselves of the Rebels lest they become an asteroid field like Alderaan. Why create a planet-killer if not for this purpose? Wouldn’t Star Destroyers suffice? If they wouldn’t, and a planet-killer needs to be created, only to blow up a city or two, it’s that a huge waste of resources? Doesn’t that call into question the careful calculations you claim the Empire practices?

So either the planet-killer is designed to kill planets to spread fear, or the planet-killer is designed to devastate cities to spread fear. In the latter’s case, the Rebellion would opt to spread thinner, thus necessitating a planet killer. Instead of prolonging the war, the destruction of a planet will suffocate the Rebel efforts efficiently and effectively, so the former option is chosen.

14 hours ago, Max_Lego said:

Had Vader choked Antilles, the latter wouldn't have been capable of speaking. Vader was questioning him, and he absolutely wanted the captain to speak.

Yes, but when Vader recognized Antilles was of no further use, it was then that he choked him.

14 hours ago, Max_Lego said:

To be fair, it's Vader who called Ozzel through Skype and it wasn't the reason Ozzy was executed. Dude was very resistant to discovering the Rebel base and most likely alerted the Rebels deliberately.

Regardless of who called who, word would get around that Vader choked a guy over Zoom (or Skype, if you must) because that guy made Vader upset for some reason. Needa doesn’t seem the Rebel type, and if he was he’d probably want to keep his head, so he spoke with Vader personally.

That’s a keen insight I’ve never realized. If not a Rebel spy, perhaps a sympathizer?

14 hours ago, Max_Lego said:

When I said Prequels were bad, I was incorrect: they are actually pretty good movies.

“So-so films” were my feelings at that time, but, as I’ve stated, I appreciate them much more now. Overall, the Prequels’ story is a masterpiece; if only there was charismatic acting and dialogue to match. (If George had kept Lawerence as a scriptwriter, I believe we all would be better for it.)

 

5 hours ago, Renny The Spaceman said:

I'm confused at this debate, yes the empire did many bad things, yes these things weren't always the most tactically sound decisions, that is true of most fascist states, it doesn't come from logic, it comes from fear and hate. 

People aren’t as different as you might believe. Dictators are people corrupted by unrestrained power; aren’t we all corrupted by power in one way or another? I understand I’m waxing philosophical with no real answer, but it’s something to think about.

 

3 hours ago, Max_Lego said:

The first thing about true fascist regimes is the cold rationality of the crimes and atrocities they commit. The Nazi death camp system was well designed to benefit Krupp, Messerschmitt, Porsche and other rich people of Germany, for example. Stupid irrational atrocities that make absolutely zero sense and are not quite possible IRL remind me of something else...

To be fair, if Mr. H had been smarter, he would’ve utilized the “inferior races” in the war instead of killing them off in mass. Still, Mr. H was also able to gain control of a large portion of Europe before the U.S. and Russia fought back. He also managed to convince his people that the Jews and other minorities were evil and inferior. All of that takes a scarily genius tactician, not just a spiteful punk.

3 hours ago, Max_Lego said:

We have a different understanding of how the Dark Side works. I strongly believe that, in order to become a powerful Sith lord, you must master the negative emotions, not succumb to them. That's why the true Sith are so calm, respectful and fearless - they mastered their anger, hatred and fear, not suppressed them like the Jedi.

Passion, anger, fear, are all uncontrollable by nature. That’s why I believe Palpatine to be an untrue Sith; the most powerful, yes, but to be a Sith you must be an agent of chaos, not restrained at all times.

Maul is the perfect example of what a Sith should be; volatile, power-hungry, father to violence. Yes, he’s easily destroyed because he’s uncontrolled in his emotions, but the Dark Side itself is unnatural, thus easily destroyed.

Palpatine is a master manipulator, and succeeds in his restraint, but as a result loses his Sith nature. The irony is apparent: the Dark Side in its purest can never gain power, but the Dark Side in full restraint can conquer the galaxy.

 

9 minutes ago, CloneCommando99 said:

Counterpoint: the Republic are the side in the Clone Wars that have Anakin, R2D2, Saw Gerrera and Chopper.

Although I disagree with the original statement, let me make a counter-counterpoint: the Seppies are the ones building the Death Star and are more likely the ones to build weapons which affect biological lifeforms. On the other hand, the Republic repeatedly tries to create non-lethal weapons which only short circuit the droid soldiers.

Edited December 2, 2024 by Swordy

[Renny The Spaceman]

3 hours ago, Max_Lego said:

The first thing about true fascist regimes is the cold rationality of the crimes and atrocities they commit. The Nazi death camp system was well designed to benefit Krupp, Messerschmitt, Porsche and other rich people of Germany, for example. Stupid irrational atrocities that make absolutely zero sense and are not quite possible IRL remind me of something else...

We have a different understanding of how the Dark Side works. I strongly believe that, in order to become a powerful Sith lord, you must master the negative emotions, not succumb to them. That's why the true Sith are so calm, respectful and fearless - they mastered their anger, hatred and fear, not suppressed them like the Jedi.

The idea of a galactic ruler being an evil dictator simply because he's a Sith Lawd is weird to me. Sure, Count Dooku is the real space fascist, warmonging and ruling for the benefit of the Trade Federation, Banking Clan, etc, but him seeking more power is justified. Palpatine doesn't really do anything wrong in the OT, and his secret leadership of the Separatists in the Prequels lead to their ultimate destruction 

...And please, let's not get too political, please 

Atrocities are irrational by nature, the way fascists come into power across the board is they create a scapegoat to blame for structural issues in society then use the persecution of this vulnerable group to gain political power, these ideologies only spread because the leaders convince the populus that some already persecuted group caused issues they have nothing to do with. These things don't actually give any benefit to the nation outside of making the populus more suseptable to government overreach if you want a reason why the empire is space racist there you go.

 

But anyways the explicit point of those films are that the sith are bad, any substance you can argue for those films depend on that so even if you were right that one of the most cartoonishly evil factions from one of the least subtle film series of all time were actually in the right then surely you should think that the star wars films are a fundamental failure in storytelling? Like if the empire or sith aren't unquestionably evil nothing the films are trying to say works.

 

Like I'm just genuinely confused how you can like star wars and think that, you're opinion means these films all failed completely

[Swordy]

Should I apologize for dragging the DC forum into a lengthy Star Wars debate? I’m enjoying this far more than Turtle’s random links or discussions resembling 4chan, personally.

Edited December 2, 2024 by Swordy

[Renny The Spaceman]

9 minutes ago, Swordy said:

People aren’t as different as you might believe. Dictators are people corrupted by unrestrained power; aren’t we all corrupted by power in one way or another? I understand I’m waxing philosophical with no real answer, but it’s something to think about.

Never said people were different, it's very easy to dehumanise people of groups you have no connection to, dictators are so often voted in initially for that reason. Kinda impossible to say anything substantial on the topic while not mentioning politics but there are obvious situations in certain places both in the past and present that show that everyone of us is susceptable and currently exposed to propaganda.

Like in a silly example, the US government bought tonnes of dairy products to keep US farmers in business back in the day, after doing this for a while they had a massive stockpile and thus in the 80s the Government vastly overstated the positive effects of dairy products to get people to buy more dairy.  In fact Got Milk campaign was entirely created to offload dairy. 

[CloneCommando99]

I like the empire because of aesthetics. I also think of them as more akin to the Romans than the Nazis (though they almost do certainly have lots of Nazi aspects). Mostly because of the emphasis on conscription and garrisons.

 

Damn it. Now I want a Jo Jo Rabbit type Star Wars movie with a stormtrooper cadet going through the academy accompanied by his imaginary but whimsical version of palpatine.

[Max_Lego]

39 minutes ago, ARC2149Nova said:

Dooku and his agents, sure. But the vast majority of the Confederacy were systems tired of Republic corruption and Jedi interference (as pseudo agents of the aforementioned corrupt Republic). The businessmen who controlled the army, and the Geonosians were pretty evil, but not every Separatist was a villain.

I agree. But it should be noted that the Separatist ideology, while attractive to some, was peak space fascism.

14 minutes ago, Swordy said:

I’ll jab a finger at the U.S.’s horrific treatment of Japanese-American citizens and leave it there.

But it was wrong from the very beginning. If you suspect someone of hiding potential spies (voluntarily or not), it doesn't mean those suspicious citizens should be treated that way).

17 minutes ago, Swordy said:

So either we continue to interpolate, or take Leia’s words at face value. If they’re peaceful, then they’re so, and if not, then Tarkin would’ve called her bluff outright.

Alderaan wasn't peaceful (supporting the Rebellion), they had weapons (again)! Doesn't justify anything, but Leia is a liar. Tarkin just didn't want to argue with her, he was pressed to learn the location of the Rebel base.

20 minutes ago, Swordy said:

Once again, it’s to send a message to the people across the Empire to purge themselves of the Rebels lest they become an asteroid field like Alderaan. Why create a planet-killer if not for this purpose? Wouldn’t Star Destroyers suffice? If they wouldn’t, and a planet-killer needs to be created, only to blow up a city or two, it’s that a huge waste of resources? Doesn’t that call into question the careful calculations you claim the Empire practices?

The Rebel base obviously had a shield, powerful enough to withstand any Star Destroyer bombardment. They knew the exact location of the fortress and were patiently waiting until it was in range.

22 minutes ago, Swordy said:

So either the planet-killer is designed to kill planets to spread fear, or the planet-killer is designed to devastate cities to spread fear.

The planet-killing BATTLE station is designed primarily to destroy enemy fortresses and large capital ships, designed to withstand a full-scale military assault and vulnerable to snub fighters. It's safe to assume that terrorising local systems (which weren't necessarily part of the Empire - in fact, I am pretty sure they weren't) was only a secondary purpose.

25 minutes ago, Swordy said:

Needa doesn’t seem the Rebel type, and if he was he’d probably want to keep his head, so he spoke with Vader personally.

Needa was an idiot. Deserved such a harsh measure taken.

26 minutes ago, Swordy said:

Dictators are people corrupted by unrestrained power; aren’t we all corrupted by power in one way or another?

Dictators are pawns of their country's (or foreign) all powerful financial capital: Admiral Kolchak, Mr. H., Rhee Syngman and Pinochet were all that way.

29 minutes ago, Swordy said:

He also managed to convince his people that the Jews and other minorities were evil and inferior. All of that takes a scarily genius tactician, not just a spiteful punk.

He didn't: Hitlerjugend kids maybe, but they're just kids. The rest of the population were terrorised by the Gestapo and silenced. Hitler was an idiot: he 'ruled' most of Europe and lost everything due to trusting Russian emigrants' lies way too much.

33 minutes ago, Swordy said:

but to be a Sith you must be an agent of chaos, not restrained at all times.

Maul is the perfect example of what a Sith should be; volatile, power-hungry, father to violence. Yes, he’s easily destroyed because he’s uncontrolled in his emotions, but the Dark Side itself is unnatural, thus easily destroyed.

Probably yes, but Maul wasn't that way until he ceased being Palpy's apprentice. In TPM he's very calm and silent and keeps his anger and hatred in an iron fist.

Guess we'll best the SW thread by discussing SW, lol

6 minutes ago, CloneCommando99 said:

I like the empire because of aesthetics. I also think of them as more akin to the Romans than the Nazis (though they almost do certainly have lots of Nazi aspects). Mostly because of the emphasis on conscription and garrisons.

 

Damn it. Now I want a Jo Jo Rabbit type Star Wars movie with a stormtrooper cadet going through the academy accompanied by his imaginary but whimsical version of palpatine.

Because you can't compare the Galactic Empire to German Nazis - it's incorrect. The Empire doesn't have such an atrocious ideology, and I sincerely doubt it has got a financial capital 

The only thing I liked about Jo Jo rabbit is the idea that only kids supported the Nazis, but could be easily disillusioned. The rest was cringe 

32 minutes ago, Renny The Spaceman said:

Like I'm just genuinely confused how you can like star wars and think that, you're opinion means these films all failed completely

Because the OT is not about the politics - it's about civil war (both sides are portrayed neutrally enough, without any political declarations) and morals (the Jedi lied to Luke on SOO many levels...)

For me, Ben Kenobi is the genius master manipulator and the true villain of the OT.

The Prequels are very different. I agree that Prequels Sith and Palps are evil, but don't consider them canon.

And let's not forget that those are imaginary characters. And Palpatine, whether you like him or not, is not like Sauron, Darksied or other pure evil villains. And I'm not talking about maniacs like Zsasz

[Renny The Spaceman]

19 minutes ago, Swordy said:

Should I apologize for dragging the DC forum into a lengthy Star Wars debate? I’m enjoying this far more than Turtle’s random links or discussions resembling 4chan, personally.

Yes? I mean you're allowed to do this, I'm on the other side as these are making me long for Turtle back. I just think the current discussion on if the over the top evil faction are the bad guys is very confusing to put it nicely.

Like I'm sorry Max, I'm really trying to be good faith here but as I see it the arguments for entirely boil down to "If you ignore everything BUT the Holiday Special and the OT and assume that my headcanons about this character being a secret rebel then they're good" but even by that standard they're wrong, even if we assume that the planet we're explicitly told is peaceful and have literally nothing to contradict that in the only 4 pieces of media that count, then them doing a planetary genocide is okay, right?

NO, even if they have a military the empire has the resources to defeat them without killing billions of civilians! How are they good, is this a bit? Am I missing the joke here, this is like arguing that the Joker is a good guy, even if we bend over backwards to ignore anything bar his first three comic appearances and a random holiday special it's not gonna work.

What's next, is Superman a superhero? What animal is Bugs Bunny? Do you think Casablanca is for or against America joining WW2?

[Max_Lego]

1 minute ago, Renny The Spaceman said:

Like I'm sorry Max, I'm really trying to be good faith here but as I see it the arguments for entirely boil down to "If you ignore everything BUT the Holiday Special and the OT and assume that my headcanons about this character being a secret rebel then they're good" but even by that standard they're wrong, even if we assume that the planet we're explicitly told is peaceful and have literally nothing to contradict that in the only 4 pieces of media that count, then them doing a planetary genocide is okay, right?

I never said that. All I said was Alderaan wasn't a peaceful planet.

Also, my headcanons are based on logical conclusions and common sense. But it's much harder to explain than I imagined it... 

By the way, @Renny The Spaceman, you reminded me of my theory that the Alderaanians were warned and had time to flee (well, except for Bail Organa, who was just overconfident). It's not based on anything, but considering the INSANE amounts of surviving Alderaanians both in Legends and Canon, it's not such a crazy theory after all...

Overall, as Anakin from one ytp put it: "From my point of view, I am evil". Jonkling, of course 

[Lego Nostalgia]

The Empire did nothing wrong, they were the heroes, the rebels are terrorists, change my mind

[Renny The Spaceman]

15 minutes ago, Max_Lego said:

Because the OT is not about the politics - it's about civil war (both sides are portrayed neutrally enough, without any political declarations) and morals (the Jedi lied to Luke on SOO many levels...)

It is not portrayed neutrally, like at all.

How am I meant to respond to this? Are you of the belief the Lucas thought that the Rebels and their cute teddy bear sidekicks who won by the power of friendship and love were supposed to be equally as sympathetic as the faction of Snooty Bureaucrats and troopers literally named after nazi foot soldiers who are lead buy a scary robot dressed in all black and a creepy monster man who's always wearing a black hood and talks about how pointless friendship is while sitting on a black throne in his planet blowing up machine? And then at somepoint he got political and decided the latter group was evil retroactively?

Have you seen any other movies?

14 minutes ago, Max_Lego said:

Also, my headcanons are based on logical conclusions and common sense. But it's much harder to explain than I imagined it... 

Common sense? The only way that any imperial Vader killed is a secret rebel, the explicitly peaceful planet isn't peaceful and planet killing weapon was actually not going to kill a planet is if you already decided the obvious bad guys were good and were working backwards to justify the bad things they did.

 

33 minutes ago, Max_Lego said:

He didn't: Hitlerjugend kids maybe, but they're just kids. The rest of the population were terrorised by the Gestapo and silenced. Hitler was an idiot: he 'ruled' most of Europe and lost everything due to trusting Russian emigrants' lies way too much. 

I'm a little confused here, is he arguing no-one actually believed in the Nazi ideology bar children and that Russian migrants were behind his worst decisions?

I hope I'm misunderstanding but if I'm not I'm surprised this doesn't count as being political 

[Lego Nostalgia]

I'm honestly confused whether you're joking or being serious about this, either way please continue 

Turtle would be proud

[Renny The Spaceman]

5 minutes ago, Lego Nostalgia said:

I'm honestly confused whether you're joking or being serious about this 

God it has to be, I gotta stop engaging he's actually just a Jonkler, no way anyone believes this

[Murdoch17]

9 minutes ago, Renny The Spaceman said:

I'm a little confused here, is he arguing no-one actually believed in the Nazi ideology bar children and that Russian migrants were behind his worst decisions?

I hope I'm misunderstanding but if I'm not I'm surprised this doesn't count as being political 

He can't be serious... he must be trolling us. (at least I hope so!)

Where is @Clone OPatra to do something about this?

[Max_Lego]

Just now, Lego Nostalgia said:

I'm honestly confused whether you're joking or being serious about this, either way please continue 

Turtle would be proud

I can discuss this endlessly, but endlessly typing answers is a little hard. 

5 minutes ago, Renny The Spaceman said:

cute teddy bear sidekicks

I thought you guys hated Ewoks

6 minutes ago, Renny The Spaceman said:

nazi

You don't understand what a horrible thing Nazism is. It's not just a political chiche, applied to any fictional villain.

7 minutes ago, Renny The Spaceman said:

Common sense? 

Yes, and, I agree, with some wishful thinking.

8 minutes ago, Renny The Spaceman said:

I'm a little confused here, is he arguing no-one actually believed in the Nazi ideology bar children and that Russian migrants were behind his worst decisions?

Even the punks who served the Nazis didn't really believe the ideology: all they wanted was to satisfy their lust for violence. Yes, that's exactly what I meant - invading the USSR the way he did (his decisions were clearly influenced by emigrants' propaganda) was his absolute worst decision.

12 minutes ago, Renny The Spaceman said:

I hope I'm misunderstanding but if I'm not I'm surprised this doesn't count as being political

I honestly didn't want to walk into that territory, but you guys kept mentioning Hitler and the Nazis.

Let's stop this insanity. I respect your opinions and am grateful for the interesting discussion, but now I'm exhausted 

[psqidexslizer]

This debate is pointless. Yes, Palpatine is a fascist. Yes, he is evil. Yes, I am 100% on his side. End of debate.

[Swordy]

33 minutes ago, Max_Lego said:

Let's stop this insanity. I respect your opinions and am grateful for the interesting discussion, but now I'm exhausted 

I’m feeling a bit exhausted by this endless debate as well. Maybe spacing replies by a week is the best? (I kid, I kid… but seriously, it could work.)

I vote we discuss favourite Christmas movies/songs, play Renny’s card game, or discuss the lore implications of Red Hulk stealing the crystals from LEGO City. Of course, we can always go on-topic.

Edited December 2, 2024 by Swordy

[Max_Lego]

11 minutes ago, psqidexslizer said:

This debate is pointless. Yes, Palpatine is a fascist. Yes, he is evil. Yes, I am 100% on his side. End of debate.

What? What was that supposed to mean?

It wasn't even my idea to discuss Star Wars in this thread in the first place. I only offered a despicable take at @THELEGOBATMAN's request. That's too much even for an Aslume.