42172 - McLaren P1

[2GodBDGlory]

38 minutes ago, Stereo said:

Scribbly drawing but this is my understanding of the dimensions it uses:

 

Black shafts have the clutch gears on them and are 3+1 offset from the drums, and then 2+1 offset from the secondary shafts in green.  The 2+1 offset fits 36 gear tooth combinations (12+24, 16+20, 20+16, 24+12 all possible with existing clutch parts)

The two sides link via the 45 offset knob gear.

That looks reasonable! I think it's slightly more complicated than that, since we have two 24T gears on a single driving ring, and one of them appears to be geared to a 12T on the left, while the other is geared to a 12T on the right, but it does look like a nice setup to get lots of speeds in space-efficiently

[Stereo]

12 minutes ago, 2GodBDGlory said:

That looks reasonable! I think it's slightly more complicated than that, since we have two 24T gears on a single driving ring, and one of them appears to be geared to a 12T on the left, while the other is geared to a 12T on the right, but it does look like a nice setup to get lots of speeds in space-efficiently

Yeah, I don't know exactly where the power transfers through, but the red 24Ts are going to a middle and side shaft, so those are presumably connected to each other in 20:12 or something.

[danielhstahl]

I'm liking what I'm seeing so far.  Novel, simpler, and hopefully more consistent gearbox and paddle shifters.  Rigid body.  Proper wishbones.  No weak pieces (such as 11478) being used under stress or weight.  Even interesting exterior functions with the doors and spoiler.

[R0Sch]

Here's the Studio model of the gearbox including the new parts as mock-ups. 42172.io
Was pretty tedious to make using a stream build video alone. The new shift drum profile is completely different from the Yamaha. It basically replaces the orange changeover ring used previously and follows 90° increments (Yamaha shift drum used 120° increments).

[(1)Stein]

Just asked Frank Stephenson about the lego model and he wasn't very pleased! He didn't like all the gaps in the doors, wich I agree is a little unsightly, But might get it and have him sign the box, since he designed the original car!?

By the way if you want a good look at the P1 download the McLarenP1 app. and then look at this image...😉

Edited July 14, 2024 by (1)Stein

[2GodBDGlory]

13 hours ago, R0Sch said:

Here's the Studio model of the gearbox including the new parts as mock-ups. 42172.io
Was pretty tedious to make using a stream build video alone. The new shift drum profile is completely different from the Yamaha. It basically replaces the orange changeover ring used previously and follows 90° increments (Yamaha shift drum used 120° increments).

Ooh, thanks for putting that together! I'll have to take a look

[Ngoc Nguyen]

https://www.instagram.com/p/C9fTrtqvVgL/

It's not just a P1-shaped standing fan, it also has a pop-up front plate.

[nerdsforprez]

On 7/14/2024 at 10:49 AM, (1)Stein said:

Just asked Frank Stephenson about the lego model and he wasn't very pleased! He didn't like all the gaps in the doors, wich I agree is a little unsightly, But might get it and have him sign the box, since he designed the original car!?

Oh that is quite interesting.  I am kinda surprised he would even sign the box if he does not like the model

[R0Sch]

1 hour ago, Ngoc Nguyen said:

https://www.instagram.com/p/C9fTrtqvVgL/

It's not just a P1-shaped standing fan, it also has a pop-up front plate.

And now it makes sense why a differential was needed...

[thekoRngear]

Part 2 of Racingbrick's review is out

Interestingly it has no reverse. Instead has an e-mode which when switched only the drum will roll.

[Fabulous Fox]

I have yet to see someone mention how the friction in the drivetrain holds up at all different speeds in this set. We’ve seen a motor connected just to the gearbox itself, but not a full test of driving the car on the ground, both ways - through all gears - like how RacingBrick did for the Land Rover.

(Neither could I find such test for the previous Daytona).

I say this because when I had the Lambo, it would consistently bind up on one or two gears when pushing it manually (only in one direction weirdly enough), and we know the designers have a history of neglecting friction problems.

I know we have new gears with less friction now, but I’m still curious.

[kbalage]

8 minutes ago, Fabulous Fox said:

I have yet to see someone mention how the friction in the drivetrain holds up at all different speeds in this set. We’ve seen a motor connected just to the gearbox itself, but not a full test of driving the car on the ground, both ways - through all gears - like how RacingBrick did for the Land Rover.

You didn't see such a test because these gearboxes are not made for this at all, especially with the weight of a 1:8 scale car. 

[thekoRngear]

13 minutes ago, Fabulous Fox said:

I have yet to see someone mention how the friction in the drivetrain holds up at all different speeds in this set. We’ve seen a motor connected just to the gearbox itself, but not a full test of driving the car on the ground, both ways - through all gears - like how RacingBrick did for the Land Rover.

(Neither could I find such test for the previous Daytona).

I say this because when I had the Lambo, it would consistently bind up on one or two gears when pushing it manually (only in one direction weirdly enough), and we know the designers have a history of neglecting friction problems.

I know we have new gears with less friction now, but I’m still curious.

I second that. An extensive test like this would be essentially cool given all the drums and gears that have been developed in recent years.

[AVCampos]

It goes all the way back to the 8448, which came with two extra yellow beams specifically to lift its driven wheels off the floor and see the effect the different gears had on the motorised model. Already at that time the LEGO designers weren't expecting you to go around speeding with that large model (although it had instructions to automate with an RCX and two paired motors for propulsion).

[Erik Leppen]

2 hours ago, kbalage said:

You didn't see such a test because these gearboxes are not made for this at all, especially with the weight of a 1:8 scale car. 

I think what Fabulous Fox meant is, how smooth are things when rolling the car over a flat surface and seeing the engine pistons move. Do all the gears run smoothly and does the engine run well in the lower gears?

I'm also curious how much play there is: how much distance do you need to roll the car before the engine starts running along?

[Fabulous Fox]

3 hours ago, kbalage said:

You didn't see such a test because these gearboxes are not made for this at all, especially with the weight of a 1:8 scale car. 

I apologize if I worded it wrongly. I meant pushing it along a surface with your hands or using motors with the wheels off the ground, not using motors to actually drive the thing. 

[StudWorks]

How much cheaper do you think this set would be if LEGO decided to not give it a gearbox?

[allanp]

I am late to comment but still not sure what to say.

It's better than the Ferrari because it actually improves on the internal mechanics, mostly the gearbox but also the larger wishbones, and I think it looks better to. It's also great to see the new 12t clutch gear, fantastic!

But now the bad. Why does the gearbox still look like a jumbled mess of gears on far to many axles? We're getting some good gearbox parts now, and we're slowly getting to a good number of different sized clutch gears. But it seems they're not there yet. Also, why is the steering wheel still not angled up towards the driver and why is the stepper mechanism still stuffed behind the steering wheel? Why is the steering wheel geared to be so hard to turn and why no hand of God? 

It seems they are still stuck between two different goals, one is to be a display model where all of the above is more excusable, because the functions won't be played with anyway, and the other goal is to be a good Technic set, as in not a display model. If anyone sees this as a display model then they should have made it from Lego bricks, not Lego Technic. Technic sets are sets that move, that do stuff, that have working mechanisms like the real thing. That's why it has a gearbox and why it absolutely should have a gearbox, it's that simple. You should be able to drive and steer it around the floor easily, and see the engine turn at different speeds (I do like the removable cover btw). But some people seem to think this is some impossible dream, but it wasn't in 1988 with the test car, 1994 with 8880 daytona vx4 supercar or in 1998 with the super street sensation. 

It is better than the Ferrari, overall it is an improvement to the line of UCS cars, and I'm really happy to see these new gearbox parts. But this car still gives too much weight to @kbalage argument that these cars are for display only. I obviously disagree with that argument but it's not entirely unreasonable to hold to that argument when playability remains so poor, especially when it comes to steering and being able to drive the car and see the engine turning at different speeds. 

These new and improved gearbox parts are supposed to allow for much more accurate, low friction gearboxes to be made. This allows for the engine to be geared to spin faster (so speed changes are more noticeable when manually driving it), or if Lego still had decently fast motors, to enable jacking the rear wheels off the ground (like 8448) so we can really see the wheels spin fast, and hear the satisfying brrrRRRR click brrrrRRRR of the gear changes. 

I'm still hopeful that they will get there eventually. But they need to make one of these cars such that it lays the "display model" argument to rest. Technic absolutely should never be a home to display models.

[Paul B Technic]

4 hours ago, allanp said:

Technic absolutely should never be a home to display models.

100% agree, display models = Model Team.

Technic needs to "do something", not just be for looks / display.

[mpj]

I agree with you, but sometimes you get a display model in technic form which is better-looking than a model team model. I mean that with all the most recent panels you can create shapes that are impossible to create with bricks. It is a different style, you have to accept the holes and flex axles, but still very eye-catching.

[kbalage]

9 hours ago, allanp said:

I'm still hopeful that they will get there eventually. But they need to make one of these cars such that it lays the "display model" argument to rest. Technic absolutely should never be a home to display models.

Well, at some point you have to accept that LEGO sometimes uses Technic parts to make display models and therefore releases them under the Technic theme :) The reason for this is quite simple: a car of this size would be incredibly heavy (and expensive) if they made it mainly from system parts. These sets give consumers the illusion of building something functional and therefore provide an additional building experience, but still end up being a display piece.

12 hours ago, Fabulous Fox said:

I apologize if I worded it wrongly. I meant pushing it along a surface with your hands or using motors with the wheels off the ground, not using motors to actually drive the thing. 

Sorry, I misunderstood you there. Pushing the car on the table works fine most of the time, even in the lowest gear. If you try to push it too fast, you may hear the clutch engage, but for demonstration purposes it is ok. There might be a scenario when the gearbox is stuck between gears, then you have to wiggle the knob gears a bit. The massive sag that occurs in older models like the Bugatti doesn't exist either, the V8 engages quickly and the effect of the gear changes is visible.

[Lipko]

10 hours ago, allanp said:

I'm still hopeful that they will get there eventually. But they need to make one of these cars such that it lays the "display model" argument to rest. Technic absolutely should never be a home to display models.

I agree with that, but in my oppinion it is an ureachable goal in case of the 1:8 cars, because (again, it's just an opinion, not backed up by actual data or tests) the sheer size of the model makes them unplayable. It's heavy even for adults to lift and "admire" the functions at the same time, it's not convenient to push around because it needs so much space you end up crawling and hopping around the model to keep up with it which is not convenient at all. With this size, it's effectively a dollhouse from playability point of view, but a car as a dollhouse is not really working. The BWE is a huge but good model, because it's practically a building that can change position every now and then, moving is NOT its main function. For a car, moving is absolutely the main function: That's my problem with this very concept.

But this is our fault, to be honest. Most people, including hardcore AFOLs and MOCers have the aesthetical taste level of "bigger is better". In the good ol'days 1:10 movels were the standard. Now, it's just the lame little brother of the "real deal". And this is a shame.

[nerdsforprez]

Technic will be whatever the market dictates it should be.  Not sure why that is so hard for folks to understand.  Most on this forum have specialized knowledge and training in the areas of design, engineering, etc. and do not reflect the general populace.  We will not get a model that fits such a specialized palette.

Take a look at the general media outlets marketing the Technic line.  Especially the UCS hypercar sets.  They are full of hype and praise.  They do not care about accurate steering, only that the models steer. They do not care about accurate gearboxes, only that there is one.  The market for these sets, yes are adults, but just being and adult does not automatically deign one the knowledge and training of most on this forum.  

And I feel we should all be grateful.  Lego being concerned with a product that fits a larger audience, even if that means a decrease in authenticity means more sets produced.  More sets means more elements - keeping costs down in an already expensive hobby.  I know that may sound funny to many ("keeping costs down" - we are talking of Lego after all), but think of how much more expensive elements would be if Lego did not try to maximize sets sold.  Selling the most sets possible also means Lego can produce more moulds and element designs, which we are obviously seeing in the last couple years.  I do not know the ratio of new elements offered in the Technic line from say the 2000's to 2015 versus say 2015- present day.  But as a consumer of Technic products over the last near decade and a half I would bet that ratio heavily favors the latter.   

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I am going to say it anyways.  If Lego only produced Lego Technic sets for lets say, the top ten percent of the market distribution (which, for sake of the argument lets say this forum pertains of in terms of training and knowledge) then our hobby would not exist as we know it.  Part cost would balloon much higher than it already is, and only the most resourced among us would be able to afford this already expensive hobby.     

[thekoRngear]

I don't get this. Dude asked how the gearbox behaves when moved on a plain surface. The other dude replied it accordingly. Why sentiments and counter-sentiments are being dumped here on this poor McLaren P1's thread? Keep this set's turf clean and related, please @Milan

And, no, the sentiments and arguments all are valid and reasonable too ever since the first Technic Ultimate set revealed back in 2016. These just need a dedicated general thread. I think it is high time a dedicated 1:8 scale Ultimate Car (not set specific) criticize/sentiments/feedback (whatever adjective fits here) thread is created. That thread should always be kicking and alive by and thru veteran Eurobrickers like the above members. Otherwise, all those valuable views/perspectives will keep getting buried in a particular/specific set thread. Kindly think about it dear higher-ups @Jim @Milan

Edited July 18, 2024 by thekoRngear

[Mikdun]

14 hours ago, allanp said:

Why does the gearbox still look like a jumbled mess of gears on far to many axles?

Fully agree. The gearboxes should resemble the actual units.

15 hours ago, allanp said:

It seems they are still stuck between two different goals

Here it will be nice to see two lines: one purely for display (with as much polished look) and the other for play/learn (with exposed mechanism).

5 hours ago, kbalage said:

Well, at some point you have to accept that LEGO sometimes uses Technic parts to make display models and therefore releases them under the Technic theme

Fine to use technic elements even in the City, but don't label such sets "Technic". :-)

 

Going back to P1 - it's improved in many areas over predecessors, so I'm happy with it.