[CONTEST] The Infamous Steve - Feedback on the Voting System

[Brickshipyard]

On 8/31/2024 at 3:45 PM, Math Wizard said:

Ahoy Matey @Brickshipyard!

Looks like ye haven’t voted yet- just a reminder that voting ends soon. If ye vote for a critic ye gain +5 points on each entry you have submitted, and another +5 if ye vote for other builds. That’s an extra ten (10) votes that yer missing out on by not voting! Yer also gonna be entered in a raffle for a $25 set, just for voting! So raise the anchor, hoist yer sails, and go vote, before it’s too late! Fair Winds!

I appreciate you dropping a post to motivate me Math Wizard and I only regret not voting for you and/or the other critics who offered advice on my build. To be blunt, not a single vote for my entry really doesn't motivate me to go vote for anyone whatsoever. Am I so arrogant to say my MOC was easily in the top 5 or 10 of large MOCs? No. But it was certainly a solid middle of the pack entry, but alas all the voters appeared to only vote for the favorites. Don't get me wrong, the cream always rises to the top, but the voting system seems highly skewed.... I can't quite put my cutlass on it... Not down to a single person cheating or anything of that nature, just the way voters announce their votes. Seems like a lot of bandwagon voting. Do I have a better idea for voting? No, not at the moment and I honestly think the mods worked hard to make things fair and open. The contest is after all a popularity contest so I can't be that cross about it. Normally, I like to be equitable, non selfish, and vote for other entries, but this was the first Lego contest I honestly thought of voting for myself b/c what the heck?!, despite a penalty of no bonus points. I must give the contest creators and judges credit though for the bonus pts. and prize raffles for just voting. Great inclusive idea! Just not for me - I'm aiming to get votes on my build or go bust. So overall, things were definitely an improvement from previous contests. Many things were fixed. This pirate contest marks my third in participation and I'll have to see about a 4th (next summer which likely has to do with Infamous Steve's life or pirate career again).

[Math Wizard]

2 hours ago, Brickshipyard said:

I appreciate you dropping a post to motivate me Math Wizard and I only regret not voting for you and/or the other critics who offered advice on my build. To be blunt, not a single vote for my entry really doesn't motivate me to go vote for anyone whatsoever. Am I so arrogant to say my MOC was easily in the top 5 or 10 of large MOCs? No. But it was certainly a solid middle of the pack entry, but alas all the voters appeared to only vote for the favorites. Don't get me wrong, the cream always rises to the top, but the voting system seems highly skewed.... I can't quite put my cutlass on it... Not down to a single person cheating or anything of that nature, just the way voters announce their votes. Seems like a lot of bandwagon voting. Do I have a better idea for voting? No, not at the moment and I honestly think the mods worked hard to make things fair and open. The contest is after all a popularity contest so I can't be that cross about it. Normally, I like to be equitable, non selfish, and vote for other entries, but this was the first Lego contest I honestly thought of voting for myself b/c what the heck?!, despite a penalty of no bonus points. I must give the contest creators and judges credit though for the bonus pts. and prize raffles for just voting. Great inclusive idea! Just not for me - I'm aiming to get votes on my build or go bust. So overall, things were definitely an improvement from previous contests. Many things were fixed. This pirate contest marks my third in participation and I'll have to see about a 4th (next summer which likely has to do with Infamous Steve's life or pirate career again).

Just tagging @Mister Phes so he can hear your feedback on the voting system.

[Samarth]

I sort of hear what @Brickshipyard is getting at. Perhaps a secret ballot (private message) rather than open ballot system would help?

[Horation]

I'd be down for that, I'd even be ok with becoming the ballot box, I think it would also mean less work for @Mister Phes, since it would allow for another to deal with all the counting, processing, and bonus votes. 

I do have to suggest just going to the contest thread, otherwise we'll transform this into an unofficial "contest critique thread".

[Mister Phes]

I'm very much open to suggestions for improving the voting process but no matter what we do, it won't suit 100% of participants.

If we change the voting system, sure it will suit some participants better, but then it will disservice others.

 

2 hours ago, Horation said:

I'd be down for that, I'd even be ok with becoming the ballot box, I think it would also mean less work for @Mister Phes

How does a secret ballot box work in terms of submitting votes?

 

7 hours ago, Brickshipyard said:

To be blunt, not a single vote for my entry really doesn't motivate me to go vote for anyone whatsoever. Am I so arrogant to say my MOC was easily in the top 5 or 10 of large MOCs?

Thank you for taking the time to provide feedback while remaining diplomatic in your approach.

When I counted the votes for the large entries I did feel bad for those who didn't receive any votes.

And that's partly why I was encouraging everyone to vote; to ensure there were sufficient votes to cover a wide range of entries so nobody missed out.

But for what it's worth, I liked your entry due to it's nostalgic feel and homages to classic LEGO sets.

[Samarth]

I imagine it simply means that votes that were being posted in the voting thread would be sent via private message to a designated member (either you or Horation or someone else) instead… and that person would be responsible for vote tallying/discarding. 

I don’t see how that would disadvantage anyone, really.

Another idea I see working (unrelated) is having a “popular vote” winner and a “staff pick”/“judge’s choice” winner. So that it doesn’t become a simple popularity contest. Or the weightage for the overall winner could be split 60:40 (as an example) between the popular vote and the judges’ vote.

 

[Mister Phes]

58 minutes ago, Samarth said:

I don’t see how that would disadvantage anyone, really.

It would disadvantage me because now I've got dozens more Emails to contend with! 

Not to mention, some of those Emails would get lost in cyberspace and not even reach me.

But if someone else wants to take on that mantle for future contests, be my guest!

 

58 minutes ago, Samarth said:

“staff pick”/“judge’s choice” winner

And who would be those judges be?

[Yperio_Bricks]

If someone enters a contest, there is always the risk to miss out. I highly doubt the votes in this contest have anything to do with the popularity of a person.

The current public voting system is simple and adequate

Any other voting system will have it's own disadvantages. For example, I doubt more than 10 people would write emails. And it will be even easier to call a vote rigged if only one person counts votes in secrecy.

[Horation]

8 hours ago, Mister Phes said:

If we change the voting system, sure it will suit some participants better, but then it will disservice others.

How does a secret ballot box work in terms of submitting votes?

Simple, I (or someone else you nominate) counts the votes in the Private messages they get, it means you don't have to count votes on a thread, it avoids the bandwagon effect, and enables immediate messages to tell voters of their errors in their votes.

But I think  @YellowFrog's idea of a shortlist that would then be voted on publicly is a better option.

[Yperio_Bricks]

As i have said, i think the current voting system is good and the best we can get imo.

I didn't want to say something but now that we are discussing the voting system: The frequent updates of the results, while the voting was still running [!], are a very bad idea. If there is a bandwagon effect, then because people simply check the results and then vote accordingly. This is the only Lego contest where i ever saw this happening. Last year it had already started, but this year it got out of hand. I am sure it was done with many good intentions and to make the life of everyone easier, but of course most people will check the results before they cast their vote. So when you check the results and see some entries already far ahead, you may consider to vote not for your favorite entries but for the successful ones. Votes should be counted only after the voting period ended.

[Mister Phes]

56 minutes ago, Yperio_Bricks said:

The frequent updates of the results, while the voting was still running [!], are a very bad idea. If there is a bandwagon effect, then because people simply check the results and then vote accordingly.

Can we acquire evidence that people actually did this?

It was hard enough to get people to vote in the first place, so to assume they were consistently following result updates in a topic named  [POLL] Which Prizes Do You Find Most Enticing?  seems a bit of stretch.

58 minutes ago, Yperio_Bricks said:

Votes should be counted only after the voting period ended.

 I agree with you and would not have kept a public tally myself.

But since Horation was doing such a good job, I didn't want to hinder his efforts.

[Horation]

My apologies @Mister Phes! Had I known, I'd have kept the count private!

[Mister Phes]

35 minutes ago, Horation said:

My apologies @Mister Phes! Had I known, I'd have kept the count private!

It's, not your fault.

I assumed if we didn't publicize the result updates, it would be unlikely people (in general) would think to find them in a topic with a completely unrelated title, I.e. [POLL] Which Prizes Do You Find Most Enticing? 

[Yperio_Bricks]

1 hour ago, Mister Phes said:

Can we acquire evidence that people actually did this?

It was hard enough to get people to vote in the first place, so to assume they were consistently following result updates in a topic named  [POLL] Which Prizes Do You Find Most Enticing?  seems a bit of stretch.

I thought it is only natural, inevitable. But maybe i am just to pessimistic

[Horation]

49 minutes ago, Yperio_Bricks said:

I thought it is only natural, inevitable.

Well, in any such public vote, it is certainly possible that some people counted the votes, the only way to prevent it is A) secret ballot or B) judge grouping, and I must say you do not appear enthralled about B.

[Yperio_Bricks]

27 minutes ago, Horation said:

Well, in any such public vote, it is certainly possible that some people counted the votes, the only way to prevent it is A) secret ballot or B) judge grouping, and I must say you do not appear enthralled about B.

Yes , that's true. But i think that that people counting all the votes themselves is a much rarer occurrence because of laziness

I would keep the voting as it is and just count the votes at the end. At the end, voting is also part of the fun and a form of engagament

[Horation]

2 hours ago, Yperio_Bricks said:

I would keep the voting as it is and just count the votes at the end. At the end, voting is also part of the fun and a form of engagament

I do feel bad about counting the votes publicly (though for my defense, that's what was done during the last contest). And there's nothing quite like a poll to get people riled up for the prize announcement! 

[Yperio_Bricks]

22 minutes ago, Horation said:

I do feel bad about counting the votes publicly (though for my defense, that's what was done during the last contest). And there's nothing quite like a poll to get people riled up for the prize announcement! 

Please don't feel bad! You did a great job being so active and helpful throughout the contest!

I hope i did not sound too harsh iny my previous posts. Because of my basic English i can't express myself as nuanced and precise as i would like to

[Mister Phes]

9 hours ago, Yperio_Bricks said:

I thought it is only natural, inevitable. But maybe i am just to pessimistic

Or perhaps you're more dedicated to the LEGO Pirates Forum than the average person.

It's important to consider that not everyone reads every post in every topic.

 

[YellowFrog]

15 hours ago, Horation said:

I do feel bad about counting the votes publicly (though for my defense, that's what was done during the last contest). And there's nothing quite like a poll to get people riled up for the prize announcement! 

I think the public count adds to the suspense of the race, and I think if you didn't count it, I would've.

Occasionally, I come across polls on this forum, where you vote by clicking an option, and then it shows you the results once you've voted. This could be a good idea for the larger contests, but I don't know how that could scale, unless a shortlist was announced first. It would decrease bandwagoning at least.

[Autumn]

1 hour ago, YellowFrog said:

Occasionally, I come across polls on this forum, where you vote by clicking an option, and then it shows you the results once you've voted. This could be a good idea for the larger contests, but I don't know how that could scale, unless a shortlist was announced first. It would decrease bandwagoning at least.

This was an idea I was think of too.

For what it is worth I didn't jump on any "band wagon," my building entry votes were purely based on my personal favourites after reviewing the list of entries, but I can kind of see what OP is saying.

I don't know how feasible it would be but perhaps, in addition to YellowFrog's suggestion, voting should take place on a page with a list of all the entries (in an order randomised each time the page is loaded) and a thumbnail and checkbox next to them to place a vote. This could increase visibility of every entry and make it a little more fair.

[Yperio_Bricks]

We have to be realistic. Nobody is programming an external page just for the voting. And a forum poll is even more risky because everybody can vote, even 100 newly created accounts. Admins or Moderators would have to manually take care of that (if it even is possible to delete votes from a forum poll). The security measures (registration date and post count would not work here). And i guess it is statistically possible that, in a fair vote, one or more entries get zero votes.

But one thing is for sure, zero votes does not mean an entry is bad! This is important to note.

[Horation]

18 hours ago, Yperio_Bricks said:

Please don't feel bad! You did a great job being so active and helpful throughout the contest!

I hope i did not sound too harsh in my previous posts. Because of my basic English i can't express myself as nuanced and precise as i would like to

Thanks! Your English was more than clear enough, I just thought I did something wrong! 

3 hours ago, YellowFrog said:

Occasionally, I come across polls on this forum, where you vote by clicking an option, and then it shows you the results once you've voted. 

I think that's a really good option, since it would allow for fast counting of the ballots and verification of the 

1 hour ago, Yperio_Bricks said:

And a forum poll is even more risky because everybody can vote. The security measures (registration date and post count would not work here). 

I feel like having a public poll like suggested by yellowFrog (with all the names being visible) and then having a nominated member do a sum of all the valid votes could work well.

[Brickshipyard]

Well I gotta say, I was expecting to be flamed by sharing my honest opinion on the voting. Ask yourselves the question, would you feel inclined to vote if no one is voting for your entry? Some have argued the "good sportsman ship" attitude and my response to you how easy it must be to quip that when you are one of the winners not having any issues gaining votes. Why do you even care at that point?  Maybe you did have really good entries, but why the need to come off high and mighty at the end by indirectly implying non voters were poor sports? That is not automatic and a total assumption. I also commented on other builders builds in a positive way and responded to critics positively (show me differently if you can), so by definition, I was a  "good sport". Undermines your argument.  I'm sure other non-voters had their reason x,y, and z.  Non voting is a FORM of voting and in this case, it indicated some level of dissatisfaction. I just happened to go on record and say it. Another thing, I could have voted for myself and didn't. Was the contest even close to a tie-breaker btw? In which case, my non vote would have deprived a winner? No.  so... SMH           My only regret was not voting for the creative critics who were vastly improved and helpful, a different experience from previous contests. I still think the critic winners were generally the ones I would have voted for.

Anyways, A welcome surprise to see some others objectively understand what I said and then further for this constructive session to kick off. I was wondering where my post went and it wound up here... I don't want to create more work for the contest admins, not at all. But I have literally majored in political science to know there is such a thing as a bandwagon effect, I saw evidence it happened in this contest, and the affect is for subsequent voters to become highly influenced by previous votes and tallies. Not even a malicious, deliberate thing often times. Hard to pin down the why, maybe the voters want to claim at the end they voted for the winning entry? A bit of pride/bragging rights? I dk, that's too far into the psychology of voting behavior.

Some blind system of voting would go a long ways though. I've seen it work recently in another Lego contest and the only way to vote was to be registered and subscribed members. Yes true, the downside is being unable to show a close race with the top vote getters in the final hours to drum up support. You lose that with a blind system. Trade off for stronger voting integrity. The Subscription implies a bit of money involved and I think it goes a long way to deterring scammers and recent account creators because it would be costly for them to spam votes and to make the money appear to be coming from many people. A ton of work! Face the reality, the participants are already investing their time and money into the contest, so a subscription isn't a crazy addition. It would help fund the site and the prizes, plus the deterrence benefits. Also, could there be a way to incentivize lego builders and registrants from other forums to come and vote in the pirates one? Castle, space, town, technic fans. Beyond the main page broadcasts, which are already good promotions everyone, including visitors sees. Increasing the voting pool size from participants who don't normally dabble in pirate building would decrease certain biases.

@ Yperio_Bricks, I agree with your logic about not getting any votes, but that doesn't help me shake the feeling what I created was a waste of time. Still a good MOC to my eyes, but technically and statistically here on EB, a loser entry. What really stings is I made my Imperial entry learning from all the issues my 2023 contest entry had, which was physical bricks and had some questionable build techniques. I went for super solid, safe, well rendered, almost too simplistic a design for the 2024 contest and yet, not a single vote. Like what am I missing here? I didn't skimp on the story either.

[Mister Phes]

11 hours ago, Brickshipyard said:

Well I gotta say, I was expecting to be flamed by sharing my honest opinion on the voting.

Why would you expect to be flamed?  Especially in a topic asking for feedback on the voting system?

 

11 hours ago, Brickshipyard said:

Ask yourselves the question, would you feel inclined to vote if no one is voting for your entry?

It perhaps comes down to the individual who is voting. 

SpacePolice's entry also didn't receive any votes either, but he still voted in the Creative Critic voting, Building Entry voting and tiebreaker vote... and even congratulated the winners.

 

11 hours ago, Brickshipyard said:

Some blind system of voting would go a long ways though. I've seen it work recently in another Lego contest

 Could you please tell me which contest was that?
 

11 hours ago, Brickshipyard said:

and the only way to vote was to be registered and subscribed members.  The Subscription implies a bit of money involved and I think it goes a long way to deterring scammers and recent account creators

Exactly what does subscribed mean in relation to that contest?

I.e. What does the subscription offer besides voting privileges?  How much is it priced?   How many subscribers voted?