Free vs Paid Instructions for MOCs

[howitzer]

9 minutes ago, Sokolov Edward said:

total monetization of each add-on (application or instruction), 

What's this monetization you're speaking of? I haven't seen TLG selling instructions for alternatives, just sets, which you can fully enjoy as intended with no additional costs beyond the set itself and TLG even provides digital instructions for free. Instructions for mocs are a third party service with little benefit to TLG (maybe someone buys a set for its third party alternatives but I imagine that must be a vanishingly small portion of total sales). It's nothing like Apple where they push all kinds of additional purchases to get more than the most basic of utilization of the device you buy. Both companies of course have relatively high pricing, there's no question about that.

[Sokolov Edward]

3 hours ago, M_longer said:

Why are you so interested in someone's money?

Perhaps Google does a bad job of translating from English to Polish, but that's not the point of my quote. I'm not interested in your personal income from sales of instructions, but in the usual impersonal statistics of sales on rebrikable by year, by topic, by new and old instructions, by buyers - new, several purchases, and so on. This will allow you to see the picture as a whole, rather than guessing on tea leaves. If you really want to sell something and increase sales, you should also be interested in such statistics. So far, I see some kind of "wild market in a dark corner of Europe" with theft of ideas, offended sellers and scaring away potential buyers.

[Timorzelorzworz]

19 minutes ago, Sokolov Edward said:

Perhaps Google does a bad job of translating from English to Polish

This guy speaks better Englisch than you Dude. Please do us all a favour, leave this topic and go to play with Duplo...

And of course we can see our stats

[Sokolov Edward]

38 minutes ago, Timorzelorzworz said:

And of course we can see our stats

Here is another offended seller of instructions. I do not see your statistics, but I see the statistics of visits to this site, and this is almost 100% of your potential buyers on rebrikable. And here there are about 2 hundred writers and 5-6 hundred regular readers without registration - and that's it. If everything suits you and you do not want to make it better, including for yourself, then continue to be offended.

[JesseNight]

The simplest solution when someone takes issue with prices is not buying.

For example, if soneone makes an awesome MOC (with a part count equal to a $200 official LEGO set, and no guarantee on how good it really is) and sells the instructions only for $25, and on top of that I'd have to spend $500+ on pieces, I find that too much. So I don't buy. It's a hobby and I have limits on my budget, and will have to accept I can't get everything I want.
But I do understand the person having put a lot of work on it. Some do that for free, others do not.

It's as simple as this. We can't have everything, definitely not for free.

[Timorzelorzworz]

18 minutes ago, Sokolov Edward said:

then continue to be offended.

I am not offended, you are just annoying with useless questions and posts. Stats are not public, but as a creator you can see your own stats with your profile. For more information feel free to ask the team behind rebrickable for that. They all prefere hand-written letters delivered personally.

And it is quite frustrating that people like you see other people only as "seller of instructions". Maybe you should learn to understand the effort, the time and all the sleepless nights spended for such project with some more respect to peoples work.

 

Edited September 16, 2024 by Timorzelorzworz

[eric trax]

1 hour ago, Sokolov Edward said:

Here is another offended seller of instructions. I do not see your statistics, but I see the statistics of visits to this site, and this is almost 100% of your potential buyers on rebrikable

It's hard not to be offended when reading your absurd arguments. You clearly have no idea what you're writing about and you want to look into someone's pocket at all costs. Your low quality baits don't work. You have no idea how much you can earn on this hobby just by building models.

Well, big money likes silence :)

[Sokolov Edward]

My English leaves much to be desired, but I do a reverse translation from English to Russian to check if the meaning of what was written has been lost. Nevertheless, I continue to be reproached for encroaching on someone's income and labor. The meaning of the discussion for me is how to improve the situation in the segment of sales of instructions for the MOC for Lego Technic. It will not be possible to improve it even by reducing prices by 100 times - I hope everyone agrees with this. The situation can only be improved by attracting new users. Let's remember where I started - 100% of the MOC for the B-model of Mercedes are paid. Without free models, potential users will simply leave for good and further. What to do with this? For example, the authors can agree and jointly release several simpler but quite effective free models - IMHO this will be a good tool for attracting newcomers. Ask what my interest is - the larger the community, the more not only buyers, but also authors and new ideas and models. No one even tried to dispute the fact that the Lego company is indifferent to this community. You can see the place of Lego Technic in the line of Lego products by looking at their catalog 2024-2 - the penultimate 9 pages out of 156. Without your efforts, no one will do anything for you. Or you can continue to puff out your cheeks and say that everything is fine.

[Oh_Hi_Mao]

8 hours ago, Sokolov Edward said:

 The meaning of the discussion for me is how to improve the situation in the segment of sales of instructions for the MOC for Lego Technic. It will not be possible to improve it even by reducing prices by 100 times - I hope everyone agrees with this. The situation can only be improved by attracting new users. Let's remember where I started - 100% of the MOC for the B-model of Mercedes are paid. Without free models, potential users will simply leave for good and further. What to do with this? For example, the authors can agree and jointly release several simpler but quite effective free models - IMHO this will be a good tool for attracting newcomers. Ask what my interest is - the larger the community.

Sorry, At this point I am thinking you are just a troll. This whataboutism is getting out of hand.

* 100 times less expensive is 2 cents which is basically free. It would solve your problem.

* Don't tell what authors should do if you are not one of them. You are not in the position to lead this discussion. You don't even have instructions bought from members you are pointing, right?

*If you do care about technic community why you are attacking cornerstone  members of this community with your nonsense? This is how the "new and large" community should start? 

Just to make things crystal clear, I am not an author and I buy MOCs. I have several bought from M_longer and Eric trax. I know the quality they serve for the money. I don't see any issues to SUPPORT the skilled creators. At the end of the day you normally have to pay for things which you can't do yourself (plumber, electrician, dentist, quality Lego MOCs, etc.). 

Edited September 17, 2024 by Oh_Hi_Mao

[Sokolov Edward]

3 minutes ago, Oh_Hi_Mao said:

Sorry, At this point I am thinking you are just a troll. This whataboutism is getting out of hand.

Look at the hit counter of this site and tell me again that I'm wrong.

5 minutes ago, Oh_Hi_Mao said:

100 times less expensive is 2 cents which is basically free. It would solve your problem.

In addition to the price, there is another very strong psychological barrier - the need to pay. Do not confuse a hobby with the services of a plumber.

[Lipko]

10 hours ago, eric trax said:

It's hard not to be offended when reading your absurd arguments. You clearly have no idea what you're writing about and you want to look into someone's pocket at all costs. Your low quality baits don't work. You have no idea how much you can earn on this hobby just by building models.

Well, big money likes silence :)

I think if it's interesting to see how well instructions sell in general.
Just my example: I don't have as many free time as I used to, so making instructions significantly reduces my productivity. Therefore I have three choices:

• making a business out of it, so that I can take unpaid days off my daily work
• asking others to make instructions which is not fair if at all possible to do for free
• not making instructions at all (this appplies at the moment)

To make such decisions, it would be nice to see some numbers.
I talked with Loxlego once as he is one of the most popular car MOC designers, and he said a well made and advertised instruction means about 100-200 sells at most. Now 100-200 sold instructions is enough to cover the workhours needed. And we're probably talking about a top notch model.
That's the only data point I have, as for some reason (maybe I'm just lame) I can't even check the downloads of my own free instructions on Rebrickable. Hardly enough for planning.

So I just have no idea if I could have a chance to make some living off my Lego hobby, because everybody keeps silent. And I'm sure that with enough time I could be as good as anyone here.

So yup, "Well, big money likes silence :)" sounds a lot like greed :)

[eric trax]

10 minutes ago, Lipko said:

So I just have no idea if I could have a chance to make some living off my Lego hobby, because everybody keeps silent. And I'm sure that with enough time I could be as good as anyone here.

So yup, "Well, big money likes silence :)" sounds a lot like greed :)

So try it like so many other people have risked their free time and see for yourself and don't expect others to do it for you. It's a very greedy approach to try to use someone else's experience to make your decisions don't you think? :)

[Erik Leppen]

I wonder too how well these things actually sell. Are we talking thousands of copies of the same instruction? A thousand? Hundreds? A hundred? Tens? Ten or less?

I don't mind people charging for instructions - after all, instructions have value, it's as simple as that. But I won't be a customer, most probably (I never bought an instruction). But personally, I rather keep them free because I feel that if I involve money into something, I lose the fun in it. When you charge money, tThen you suddenly have to cater to an audience. Then instructions will have to be clear and error-free, and catered to a public that might contain less-experienced builders. Being free, my instructions are "take it or leave it", I'm not going to change my style of instruction making.

A paid instruction is primarily a product, a free instruction is primarily an artpiece. And I rather live in a world full of artpieces than in a world full of products. So I keep my own instructions free.

 

What baffles me is why this subject often seems to stir up discussions to the point people get personal. There are two viewpoints and I think both are valid.

 

Edit:

6 minutes ago, eric trax said:

So try it like so many other people have risked their free time and see for yourself and don't expect others to do it for you. It's a very greedy approach to try to use someone else's experience to make your decisions don't you think? :)

And this is what I meant above by "If you involve money, the fun drains out."

Why not contribute to a community of sharing knowledge? I thought that's what EB was.

 

Edit 2: here's an example of what happens when someone releases something great for free:

I have written a free book about Lego clocks! - LEGO Technic, Mindstorms, Model Team and Scale Modeling - Eurobricks Forums

 

Edited September 17, 2024 by Erik Leppen

[Sokolov Edward]

15 minutes ago, Lipko said:

I talked with Loxlego once as he is one of the most popular car MOC designers, and he said a well made and advertised instruction means about 100-200 sells at most. Now 100-200 sold instructions is enough to cover the workhours needed. And we're probably talking about a top notch model.

Thank you very much for your honest answer. Your words fully confirm my assumptions. If you feel the desire and strength to do this, then it is quite possible to conclude a contract with a well-known Chinese brand to develop models. If this does not contradict your principles. European companies 20 years ago without a twinge of conscience transferred production to China - money does not stink anywhere, even in silence.

[Lipko]

14 minutes ago, eric trax said:

So try it like so many other people have risked their free time and see for yourself and don't expect others to do it for you. It's a very greedy approach to try to use someone else's experience to make your decisions don't you think? :)

Building on someone else's experience? Sounds like development of a society istead of greed.
You have built your experience on the real pioneers of MOc-ing, like Crowkillers, Sheepo, Grazi, just to name a few. It's all normal. Don't be afraid, I won't take your customers, I'm not interested in agricultural machinery. And at the end, model quality should be the evolutionary push in the MOC race, not having enough money to risk.

[Erik Leppen]

26 minutes ago, Lipko said:

I talked with Loxlego once as he is one of the most popular car MOC designers, and he said a well made and advertised instruction means about 100-200 sells at most. Now 100-200 sold instructions is enough to cover the workhours needed. And we're probably talking about a top notch model.
That's the only data point I have

Thanks Lipko and @Lox Lego for sharing this, this gives an impression 

[Lipko]

18 minutes ago, Sokolov Edward said:

Thank you very much for your honest answer. Your words fully confirm my assumptions. If you feel the desire and strength to do this, then it is quite possible to conclude a contract with a well-known Chinese brand to develop models. If this does not contradict your principles. European companies 20 years ago without a twinge of conscience transferred production to China - money does not stink anywhere, even in silence.

It contradicts my principles, and I honestly don't know if I would contract with them if they approached me (though it would be a honour).
One simple reason is that now they have different inventories, and I want to stick to one. Obviously the one I already have a decent inventiry of, and that has a decades old history.

12 minutes ago, Erik Leppen said:

Thanks Lipko and @Lox Lego for sharing this, this gives an impression 

I ddin't ask for his permission to share numbers though, but he replied without any hesitation, so I don't think it's a confidential information.

EDITed some typos

Edited September 17, 2024 by Lipko

[eric trax]

31 minutes ago, Erik Leppen said:

A paid instruction is primarily a product, a free instruction is primarily an artpiece. And I rather live in a world full of artpieces than in a world full of products. So I keep my own instructions free.

Interesting theory. Are you assuming that the vast amount of art sold for big bucks is no longer art?

 

31 minutes ago, Erik Leppen said:

And this is what I meant above by "If you involve money, the fun drains out."

Why not contribute to a community of sharing knowledge? I thought that's what EB was.

That's even more interesting. Are you suggesting that building models for instructions can't be satisfying? Since I started making alternative models, I've developed my skills significantly. That's what made me have to change my building style. It was a big challenge for me, but it gave me a lot of satisfaction. Don't put others in your shoes.

I have shared my knowledge with people over the years, giving advice during the build. I don't need to flaunt it publicly just so you have proof.

 

21 minutes ago, Lipko said:

Building on someone else's experience? Sounds like development of a society istead of greed.
You have built your experience on the real pioneers of MOc-ing, like Crowkillers, Sheepo, Grazi, just to name a few. It's all normal.

Don't be afraid, I won't take your customers, I'm not interested in agricultural machinery. And at the end, model quality should be the evolutionary push in the MOC race, not having enough money to risk.

You know... I started building with the people you mentioned, so that argument is a bit off.

I don't worry about clients or sales. I just do my thing. I won't try to convince you of my point of view, I just think that some of the statements are off or absurd.

Edited September 17, 2024 by eric trax

[Lipko]

28 minutes ago, Erik Leppen said:

What baffles me is why this subject often seems to stir up discussions to the point people get personal. There are two viewpoints and I think both are valid.

To make my standing point clear, I also think both viewpoints are valid, but I don't agree with being so secret. @eric trax

Edited September 17, 2024 by Lipko

[Davidz90]

25 minutes ago, Erik Leppen said:

And this is what I meant above by "If you involve money, the fun drains out."

Why not contribute to a community of sharing knowledge? I thought that's what EB was.

100% this, although I have no issue with others having a different viewpoint. No idea what the fuss is about - making instructions takes time and skills, and some people prefer to get paid for their work. Simple as that.

While maybe not directly applicable to the topic, in addition to releasing my book for free, I also published it on Amazon, with 0 royalties. People buying it pay for having it printed, nothing more. I have managed to sell 25 books so far. I imagine paid instructions fare a little better than that, being less niche.

[Lipko]

To further beat the sht:

If you are new to MOCing, I don't think you should make paid instructions. At very best you can sell a few dozens of instructions, not enough to cover the work needed but you might scare away buyers and have zero sells instead. First build up some reputation. I've seen may paid instruction of very low quality models. Don't do that.

[eric trax]

8 minutes ago, Lipko said:

If you are new to MOCing, I don't think you should make paid instructions. At very best you can sell a few dozens of instructions, not enough to cover the work needed but you might scare away buyers and have zero sells instead. First build up some reputation. I've seen may paid instruction of very low quality models. Don't do that.

100% agree.

[Erik Leppen]

48 minutes ago, eric trax said:

Interesting theory. Are you assuming that the vast amount of art sold for big bucks is no longer art?

I said "paid [something] is primarily a product". I specifically added "primarily" to address this point.

Yes, sold art is still art, but, by entering the realm of economy, it is made into an art product.

 

48 minutes ago, eric trax said:

That's even more interesting. Are you suggesting that building models for instructions can't be satisfying?

That was not at all what I wanted to suggest! But I just noticed someone being a seller of instructions (which just happened to be you) decided to not share this particular bit of information for free, even though I would think this community thrives on people sharing things for free. So I was a bit surprised by this and made the link between someone not sharing something for free and, well, not sharing things for free. That is all.

I called this "the fun drains out" because I think sharing things for free and getting replies is part of the fun. By involving money, it becomes a transaction, and to me, that feels not-fun.

 

18 minutes ago, Lipko said:

If you are new to MOCing, I don't think you should make paid instructions. At very best you can sell a few dozens of instructions, not enough to cover the work needed but you might scare away buyers and have zero sells instead. First build up some reputation. I've seen may paid instruction of very low quality models. Don't do that.

This is a good point.

Personally, I don't consider myself good enough (as a builder and as an instruction maker) to make people pay for the things I made.

Edited September 17, 2024 by Erik Leppen

[Timorzelorzworz]

It's funny around here, people sharing insights from big people without permission for that, 'cause all is "hobby and community". Regardless to this sonsense, these amount of sales can't be true. Maybe he means the sales for a fresh released model at the first peek, but for a model on the market for 3 or 4 years, this isn't realistic. Anyway, one should decide between hobby-builder and between designer they turned this into a serious fulltime business, including Lox, me, Marek,.. (the ones I know this for sure). We can't allow ourselves to release shit models, because we can't allow ourselves to bother our customers and builders. Building models and releasing instructions is our daily income to pay the live. And then some frustraded sactioned russion guy is joining and want to tell us what to do? Ridiculous. For me personally, It was a long and a hard road with my models to be where I am now, and no one helped me for that. I do all my stuff alone and learned alot over the years by myself, so I'm going to give a shit for any information. Anyway, 100-200 sales for a premium model with such a large background and fanbase behind can't be true. Append three zero and you are on a stright path.

Edited September 17, 2024 by Timorzelorzworz

[Sokolov Edward]

6 minutes ago, Timorzelorzworz said:

Anyway, 100-200 sales for a premium model with such a large background and fanbase behind can't be true. Append a zero and you are on a stright path.

To my regret these figures fully correlate with the attendance of this site - 100-200 members and up to 1000 guests and bots. If your sales are an order of magnitude higher then I can only be happy for you, but where are all these people - this is the most popular forum of Lego technics in Europe and the world.