Free vs Paid Instructions for MOCs

[sondh]

On 11/22/2024 at 3:56 PM, Timorzelorzworz said:

For all fans looking for discount on instructions, a ten-day 30% off-period has been started now:

https://rebrickable.com/users/timtimgo/mocs/

Thanks for the discount. I am following your Jeep Trailcat instruction at the moment. However, there are some steps that I am afraid they might cause problems for future disassembly

115 - insert the axle with stop end here (same with 119 too)

Also, I will be using the power function motors in this set, would that be a problem? Currently I have 2 L motors, 3 M and a servo, do I need another L motor?

[pleegwat]

20 hours ago, kevin8 said:

You can see what's the part you need on Rebrickable, without dowloading the instructions. It's the third tab. It is called "Inventory"

I know. Under display options, you can also choose to hide parts you own to get just a list of parts you need to substitute. But just having the parts list does not tell you whether you will be able to substitute something else for them, or if a recolor will be acceptable.

[sp1984]

Hello

Regarding discussed topic but from different point of view.

Imagine paid instructions on Rebrickable for MOC.

There is an usual page with photos (or renders)  of given MOC model, some teasers from instruction, etc.

So if I skip buying that paid instruction and just building given model on basis of that photos and instruction teaser- so its kind of reverse engineering which take amount (quite a long sometimes) of time.

Is such practice above allowed, without issues with rights and licences?

In my opinion yes, just wanted to be sure.

Regards

 

[M_longer]

3 minutes ago, sp1984 said:

Is such practice above allowed

I always encourage people to try it, mostly those that think that my instructions are too pricey :)

[sp1984]

9 minutes ago, M_longer said:

I always encourage people to try it, mostly those that think that my instructions are too pricey :)

Haha, thanks for your reply.

[ITSDEEKAY]

I started collecting Lego technic 2 years ago. Based on my observation on free vs paid moc. I'd rather buy MOCs that are high quality... meaning proving PDF step by step versions and not just photos including 20 steps into one photo (it gets confusing). Because I live in the USA, most of the MOC designs are foreign to me and the parts used on the designs are either from decades ago or very hard to find on the market. This is also why I stuck with official released Lego Technic models and appreciate the designers here making their own MOCs from the official released (Unimog looks very popular to build in this community). Best of all, I'm getting into motorizing my MOCs and this is where I'm putting my money in. 

 

[eric trax]

On 11/24/2024 at 5:57 AM, Bartybum said:

I think I identify with this opinion the most. I wish people didn't charge money for instructions, but hell it's not my place to tell people what to do.

I rarely see understanding here despite differing opinions. This topic was created precisely because some people here are trying to tell others to share their work hours for free. As I see, they managed to convince some to share sales.

On 11/22/2024 at 12:47 PM, Kostq said:

I can't say they are masterpieces either compared to the stuff other people have put out and FOR FREE.

I saw your models on rebrickable. I think the main reason for the lack of sales here is the fact that the vast majority can be built from a photo/render. However, these are small models and not complicated enough to not try reverse engineering.

 

Many of you say that building models is a pleasure and a hobby. I agree. Building is a pleasure. However, creating instructions, testing them, preparing a professional presentation with photos and videos takes a very long time in my case and takes away a large part of this pleasure. Maybe it's because I'm very pedantic and I like it when I know that everything is 100% the way I want it. It takes a lot of time and work. I can't imagine offer paid instructions that someone could complain about.

Since I started providing paid instructions (first with @M_longer and now by myself) I have sold over 9000 copies of all my 26 models. I've had maybe 3 or 4 complaints. This confirms my belief that hard work will always defend itself against the opinions, of people who have no idea about the subject they are trying to speak about.

 

P.S the truth is that the boom where people got interested in Lego and bought sets was during Co**id. Now a lot of people are bored with building and many also can't afford new sets which are very expensive. Lego thought that the growth of popularity would last forever and that's why they raised the prices of sets. The recent reductions in catalog prices are not a coincidence. Even Rebrickable statistics show how the interest in Lego sets is decreasing.

Edited November 25, 2024 by eric trax

[Timorzelorzworz]

23 hours ago, sondh said:

Also, I will be using the power function motors in this set, would that be a problem? Currently I have 2 L motors, 3 M and a servo, do I need another L motor?

No worries, I disassembled it many many times so its doable to make.

For the PF-motors, I would say its possible when you can find the right connections for those motors and replace the C+ hub with PF battery pack. I would say its possible but I never tested this by myself.

Thanks for your interest in this model.

[gwenhael]

15 hours ago, sp1984 said:

Hello

Regarding discussed topic but from different point of view.

Imagine paid instructions on Rebrickable for MOC.

There is an usual page with photos (or renders)  of given MOC model, some teasers from instruction, etc.

So if I skip buying that paid instruction and just building given model on basis of that photos and instruction teaser- so its kind of reverse engineering which take amount (quite a long sometimes) of time.

Is such practice above allowed, without issues with rights and licences?

In my opinion yes, just wanted to be sure.

Regards

 

And how exactly would disallowing that be enforced?

[2GodBDGlory]

19 hours ago, sp1984 said:

Hello

Regarding discussed topic but from different point of view.

Imagine paid instructions on Rebrickable for MOC.

There is an usual page with photos (or renders)  of given MOC model, some teasers from instruction, etc.

So if I skip buying that paid instruction and just building given model on basis of that photos and instruction teaser- so its kind of reverse engineering which take amount (quite a long sometimes) of time.

Is such practice above allowed, without issues with rights and licences?

In my opinion yes, just wanted to be sure.

Regards

 

I don't see any problem with doing that--I reverse-engineered a model myself recently. Obviously, you can't claim the model as your own, but in my mind, the cost of buying instructions is to compensate for the work that went into creating the instructions, not for the right to enjoy the model itself.

Plus, I doubt builders would care, since it's such a small minority who would go to that effort. And has been mentioned, it's totally unenforceable--once you post pictures of something online, you don't really have any say over what people build based off them.

[Timorzelorzworz]

I would say its rather impossible to reverse build a large and complex model only from pictures or renders.

Removed advertisement video for discount for instructions

Edited November 26, 2024 by Milan
Removed advertisement video

[Stereo]

I've reverse engineered a mid-size model ~700 pieces, but it was classic Technic style, everything visible, and I only did it cause there were no instructions available.

[Milan]

@Timorzelorzworz
Let's keep this topic for free vs paid instructions discussion.
I have removed your advertisement video.

Thanks.

[Timorzelorzworz]

Aww :( OK man with the nice reds dungarees

[langko]

14 hours ago, Timorzelorzworz said:

I would say its rather impossible to reverse build a large and complex model only from pictures or renders.

Well @astyanax managed to reverse build my 4500+ piece Huayra from some photos and a short YouTube video, so it is far from impossible. That said, someone else tried to do the exact same thing for mouldking and they screwed it all up. So you have to be an exceptional builder to be able to do it. 

[mla2]

What's missing from the discussion so far is that Rebrickable is against free MOCs. For example the MOC @langko just mentioned is not allowed as a free MOC, it must be a paid MOC instead. This is because of free MOCs rule F1. See https://rebrickable.com/help/mocs-submit/.

Another rule against free MOCs which has no counterpart for paid MOCs is rule F4. Because of this rule the free alt MOCs I did for the yellow Bolide and grey Jesko can only be published as alts for the blue Bolide and white Jesko if they are paid MOCs.

[Kostq]

On 11/23/2024 at 6:18 PM, mdemerchant said:

What is the actual mechanism by which you get paid through Rebrickable?

Paypal or Stripe/they do the bank card processing/. PP has fees - a fixed one + %one. For small MOCs sometimes you get about 30-40% eaten by RB+PP alone.
RB doesn't allow you to post a premium moc priced below 1 Euro. PP fee is about 30-40c depending on the region + the %.

On 11/23/2024 at 9:00 PM, M_longer said:

golden era of living from instructions ended for me. Nice time, but it's not worth the grey hairs anymore and steady income is better than living the dream ;)

Word. It'd be sad to see less new mocs from you though.
Also I agree that scattershotting small MOCs against a polished big one is an uphill battle both time- and effort-wise. Had to try though.

On 11/23/2024 at 9:00 PM, M_longer said:

42175 barely paid itself,and I thought that it will be selling much better as 42078 Snow Plow.

My 42106 paid for itself at least half an year later while there were only 4 competing MOCs at RB at that time.

On 11/23/2024 at 10:04 PM, msk6003 said:

It seems difficult to get even a single sale except as an alternative to the existing model.

That is every my premium MOC which designed in 2024. Studless 8480's A model got 7 and B model got 2. But studless 8479 got nothing.

RB has a gaping impression hole for the non-b-c-models. They are kinda hard to stumble on if you don't have any external marketing for them.
Besides the Workbench posts - you get one email bump when the parts% threshold is reached, one "NEW MOC" if somebody follows you and the "NEW MOC" panel on the frontpage with the latest 8 MOCs.
Picking the right time to maximize the frontpage exposure is tricky to say the least.

Apparently I cannot cite from two different pages so I'll just agree with @EricTrax's whole comment.
The joy gets sucked out in all the digital-related production before release.

====================================

Some of my background as a MOCcer:

Spoiler

I've made about 900 sales so far.
My "big" MOCS - the 5 C models out of 42106 as a set are about 130 of them.
The 42039B RC Conversion is about 50. Pullback-related sales were about 50 too.
The small "cashgrab" mocs make more of the rest of the sales.
My environment and free time let me develop only small MOCs lately.
Several bigger mocs were in the works, but the ROI is insane and are about to get scrapped.

The initial MOCs were more of a niche-small-scale-business-case-study infused with the creative itch.
RC conversion MOD, 3 MOC combo "MOC" and bundle of smaller MOCs were all tested there. Proof of concept was ok.

Yeah, some of the 42116/42133 MOCs are a dime-a-dozen, some didn't sell and some need adapting or simply didn't need to be released at all - but both sets made about 150+ sales each.
Many of the "cashgrab" MOCs had a freemium version baked either in the video or as an IO file somewhere in the description.
My way of "requiring" some effort from the receiving side too.

I've tried increasing my production costs and equipment and marketing - sales went marginally up so I gave up on the More Premium-ness in both social media and photoshoots.
Creating stuff for me is scratching an itch that proved that SOMETIMES you can get a beer for your work if it's good enough.

 

tl;dr - I'm not an engineer and it shows. I'm improvising on the fly or arriving "late to the party" MOC-wise - and it shows. The sales show this too. It's what it is. I build less than 10 new sets a year too.
As any other competitive field - the rewards go to the more experienced/creative/better marketing/harder working/better equipped people and for me - it's fair.
 

Below is some argumentation about things that I don't agree with earlier in the discussion.

Spoiler

 

On 11/24/2024 at 12:52 PM, Gumalca said:

1. He doesn't care about quality.
2. Multiple of his Premium MOCs even have "illegal" in the name, because of illegal building techniques that stress parts.
3. What's Premium about that? But customers know how to treat those designers.
4. I wouldn't buy from him. 

1. Wrong on several levels. I can agree that I care way less in the last two years and it shows. Besides that:
 - Every MOC has a physically-shot video review of the functions it has. The only digital-heavy ones are from the 42090/42091 sets that I sold finished them digitally later. I found time several years later to publish them.
 - I've made improvements to some MOCs and uploaded updates to some MOCS years later with no prior user input
2. The TITLE of the MOC warns you if you're purist. The description too. The Illegal part /from the ILLEGAL TRAINS series/ is that RUBBER TIRES are hung on axles or on a 16z gear and not on the wheels as supposed to.
Rule 7 below states that breaking motors is bad. Stretching a tire that's 10c is illegal, true, and also - cheaply replaceable if needed. Just look at some of the panel-bending that existed in 1:8-1:10 MOCs before.

Quote

1.    Premium MOCs must include PDF instructions. Studio/LDD/etc files may also be uploaded but must accompany a PDF file.
2.    Premium MOCs must have no inventory errors at all.
3.    There is a higher level of minimum complexity required for Premium MOCs
4.    The instructions must not be password protected
5.    We expect a higher level of quality for Premium MOCs.
6.    You cannot sell Premium MOCs that are based on IP from another person/organisation unless you have an agreement with them
7.    Premium MOCs must not have a high probability of damaging parts with use, such as with motorised/moving assemblies

3. You can argue on rules number 3 and 5 and so far RB hasn't. They cite no mosaics as the software generates them for you.
Just a fact - RB can't test any submitted MOC besides their inventory in any other automated way.
4. Great.
5. Thanks for the feedback.

 

Side-rant:
As the years go by - there's a big "non-moc" effort inflation too on RB.
I still remember before i joined that in 2017-2018 7.5eur for an LXF file was a fair game.
PDFs were exotic, not-required and mainly photo-based and MOCs were sold based on LDD renders +- customer photos. LDD kinda generated instructions but kinda didn't sometimes.
In terms of a sale conversion nowdays - you have to put a lot more extra content before a sale is made - Photos/videos/IG/TT/YT/WorkBench posts to get the traction needed.

Just to be clear - for me a CLEAR AND SIMPLE PDF IS A MUST and really non-negotiable nowdays, I won't buy an LXF/IO alone.

it's what it is at the end of the day. Now let's go back to work.

Cheers.

Edited November 27, 2024 by Kostq

[M_longer]

11 hours ago, mla2 said:

Rebrickable is against free MOCs.

Read those rules again.
 

[langko]

11 hours ago, mla2 said:

What's missing from the discussion so far is that Rebrickable is against free MOCs. For example the MOC @langko just mentioned is not allowed as a free MOC, it must be a paid MOC instead. This is because of free MOCs rule F1. See https://rebrickable.com/help/mocs-submit/.

If we wanted it to be free, couldn’t I have just submitted it for free on my own account? Don’t see how rebrickable is against free MOCs in this scenario. I just see it as rebrickable being against giving out work/designs that are not originally your own (Whether free or paid).

[mla2]

46 minutes ago, M_longer said:

Read those rules again.

I see now they have rewritten F4. Up until recently it said "MOCs that are a color replacement of other Sets/MOCs are not an original design and will be rejected.". So it didn't contain the "other designers'" bit. You can check this on the Wayback Machine. But good it's changed and thanks for pointing it out. F1 is still stricter than P1 for whatever reason.

[Bartybum]

10 hours ago, mla2 said:

I see now they have rewritten F4. Up until recently it said "MOCs that are a color replacement of other Sets/MOCs are not an original design and will be rejected.". So it didn't contain the "other designers'" bit. You can check this on the Wayback Machine. But good it's changed and thanks for pointing it out. F1 is still stricter than P1 for whatever reason.

I don't see how F1 is enforceable to be honest, so I wouldn't really worry about it.

Even with the original F4 wording, I'm not surprised they're not allowed - all they'd do is clutter up the website. The only argument I can see in response to this is that Rebrickable should be able to check your inventory to see if you have enough parts to for a colour swap. I have no idea if it already has this ability though.

 

[damian_kane_iv]

I am in support of people who offer paid mocs, I myself have bought a moc here and there.

But I do sometimes think some of the prices can get out of hand. I would have to really want a specific moc if I were to pay $25-30 

[Alex Ilea]

58 minutes ago, damian_kane_iv said:

 if I were to pay $25-30 

No MOC should cost more than 20. Even if it a big supercar.

[Stereo]

13 hours ago, Bartybum said:

The only argument I can see in response to this is that Rebrickable should be able to check your inventory to see if you have enough parts to for a colour swap. I have no idea if it already has this ability though.

 

They have a premium feature that swaps colours in a MOC for you, I haven't tried it so I don't know how applicable it is to these sets with 2 versions.

[mdemerchant]

9 hours ago, Alex Ilea said:

No MOC should cost more than 20. Even if it a big supercar.

I'm fine with a big model costing more than that.  But I think it probably strongly depends what kind of MOCs you buy and why.  In my case, the ones I buy are almost always fairly large/complex things I want for display pieces in which case I'm going to order typically hundreds of dollars of parts for them anyway so the instruction cost is not that significant.  But if you are looking to buy MOCs just for something to build with your parts you have then I can see you will be more concerned about the price.  I rarely do that because if I just want to build something I'll just build something myself most of the time.