Free vs Paid Instructions for MOCs

[Timorzelorzworz]

1 minute ago, johnnytifosi said:

50 minutes ago, Alex Ilea said:

I find it interesting that you say that Creator has a "decent comunity". So Technic doesn't just because there is a paywall? 

Yes.

No. The "paywall" for Creator and also for Friends set is higher. On RB there are much more Creator B-Models for sale than Technic.

[M_longer]

2 hours ago, johnnytifosi said:

or the recent G Wagon set for which we see front paged MOCs now, where all 4 builds so far are premium too.

As always, you can mae anything else from the set, these are just same bricks, just used in different places ;)

[Sokolov Edward]

48 minutes ago, M_longer said:

As always, you can mae anything else from the set, these are just same bricks, just used in different places ;)

You judge this as an already established fan of Lego Technic. I myself have already gotten into this topic - I have a collection of parts that are listed in the catalog on Rebrikable, I know where else you can download free and high-quality instructions, where to read news about Lego, etc. And there are people who decided to come into this "from the street" - bought a set, assembled it and decided to assemble something else. They were able enough to get to Rebrikable and find a catalog of B-models, but 100% of paid models will scare them off with 100% probability and neither Lego, nor Chinese copy-pasters, nor especially MOС designers will get a cent from them. I have seen such examples myself. It must be admitted that Lego Technic for grown-ups is a very small segment in the Lego world - most of it is children's bricks like City, etc. There the user algorithm is even shorter - bought, assembled, played, the child grew up and the parents sold everything in one bag for 10 euros per kilogram at the local flea market - MOС designers do not participate in this at all.

[Timorzelorzworz]

9 minutes ago, Sokolov Edward said:

I have a collection of parts that are listed in the catalog on Rebrikable

As mentioned in another thread before, we all waiting for your upcoming B-model made out of Technic for free.

[Marvelous Bricks]

On 9/16/2024 at 10:18 AM, johnnytifosi said:

It's nice to see this topic opened since I made a similar comment with @Sokolov Edward 's one somewhere else. Personally, I dislike paid MOCs on principle.

I think the issue wouldn't bother me that much normally, but it does because of the elimination of B-models in Technic. This gives one no alternatives but to scour Rebrickable for alternative builds, and then get disappointed. Some examples are the Ford GT set, where 34 of the 40 alternative builds are premium, or the recent G Wagon set for which we see front paged MOCs now, where all 4 builds so far are premium too.

You mentioned that paid MOCs bother you because of the elimination of B-models in Technic, but the irony here is that if LEGO were to include an official B-model in the G500 set for example it would result in a price increase way higher than the average price of its alternate builds (€14) considering development costs, testing/quality control, creating and printing instructions, etc.

 

Edited September 22, 2024 by Marvelous Bricks

[johnnytifosi]

15 minutes ago, Marvelous Bricks said:

You mentioned that paid MOCs bother you because of the elimination of B-models in Technic, but the irony here is that if LEGO were to include an official B-model in the G500 set for example it would result in a price increase way higher than the average price of its alternate builds (€14) considering development costs, testing/quality control, creating and printing instructions, etc. So basically, you are paying more for an alternate build but you would be fine with it because it’s ‘official’ and it comes with the same set so it would seem like a bargain.

Are you really trying to excuse TLG here? If the cost reduction through elimination of B-models was passed on to the consumers, that would be a valid argument, but we all know that in the past 5-6 years TLG is offering less (no B-models, no power functions, no hardware remotes, etc.), but we didn't see a single price drop by any metric, alas they are charging more and more. Do not try to make any sense of Lego pricing other than that people will just pay the price. It is obvious from the various knock-offs that still turn out a profit that the true cost per set is in the order of a few tens of dollars. It's just plastic ffs. Here is the obligatory reminder that for the same (inflation adjusted) price of the sorry G500 set you mentioned, Lego used to offer the Arocs with more parts, power functions, pneumatics, license AND a B-model. I rest my case.

Edited September 16, 2024 by johnnytifosi

[M_longer]

38 minutes ago, Sokolov Edward said:

You judge this as an already established fan of Lego Technic.

I just share my opinion about complaints from a perspective of someone, who sell instructions for years. And there were A LOT of people nagging for free instructions in past years.
See, some people think that everything related to LEGO should be free. Just because "it's LEGO and I'm a fan of LEGO". Sorry, my bills are not for free.

 

38 minutes ago, Sokolov Edward said:

but 100% of paid models will scare them off with 100% probability and neither Lego, nor Chinese copy-pasters, nor especially MOС designers will get a cent from them.

And? I have even been said (ONCE), that I should release all my instructions for free (hundreds of hours of work spent on them) and rely only on voluntary donations. And that was the dumbest ideaI have ever heard :)
Main idea behind making paid instructions; If you have paid 200€ for a set, spending additional 10-15€ on completely new and different model is a fair deal. No additional bricks, no addtional effort. Just few % of price you have already paid for bricks for 100% new building experience.

21 minutes ago, Marvelous Bricks said:

Have all MOCs free and see a significant decline in the overall MOC quality in the community.

So what would you build then? Those low quality ones? :)

Edited September 16, 2024 by M_longer

[Sokolov Edward]

57 minutes ago, Timorzelorzworz said:

As mentioned in another thread before, we all waiting for your upcoming B-model made out of Technic for free.

Apparently this was in the Mercedes thread and I didn't have time to read all the responses before the moderator deleted them. I'll answer here - I don't have such developments in my plans. I earn money from my job in my specialty, and Lego Technic was chosen as a hobby a couple of years ago to warm up my brain and fine motor skills - this is very important with age. The most I've done so far using Lego instructions as an alternative was to assemble new models from what I have, replacing new parts with analogs from old ones - the results can be seen here in the Audi RS and new Mercedes threads. In my opinion, such assemblies don't qualify as B-models. I'm not trying to beg anything from anyone - I don't need it, I can afford to buy it. I raised the topic to figure out why everything is the way it is. Despite the puffing up of the MOC developers, it is clear that no one has yet earned enough money to buy a real Ferrari by selling instructions. A professor I know said that people are divided into those who can "make" and those who can "sell". I am one of those who "make". IMHO, you can really earn money here only by cooperating with manufacturers. As far as I understand, Lego is not at all interested in this. But Chinese factories are interested and they are now actively cooperating with authors - I have seen many discussions and examples of cooperation on various forums. The authors of the MOC certainly need to "move their crowns from their ears" and understand that their instructions are only a very small part of preparing the model for release.

Edited September 16, 2024 by Sokolov Edward

[everybrickasculpture]

There's nothing wrong with charging people for something if they want it.  I also don't really mind if people post topics here that show off their model and include a link to buy the instructions, as long as the post has effort.

[Sokolov Edward]

38 minutes ago, Marvelous Bricks said:

You mentioned that paid MOCs bother you because of the elimination of B-models in Technic, but the irony here is that if LEGO were to include an official B-model in the G500 set for example it would result in a price increase way higher than the average price of its alternate builds (€14) considering development costs, testing/quality control, creating and printing instructions, etc. So basically, you are paying more for an alternate build but you would be fine with it because it’s ‘official’ and it comes with the same set so it would seem like a bargain.

The prices for Lego Technic do not reflect the actual cost of these sets (which are made in China, by the way), but the standard of living in Europe and the US, according to Lego marketers. Judging by the forums, this price is high even for Europe and the US - I see active discussions of Chinese copies on other sites. The actual price of Chinese sets falls below 0.01 euro per part for sets without electrics. Now the market is flooded with Chinese copies of top Ferraris for 40 euros and cheaper - apparently someone overestimated the demand - children do not need it, and adult fans have already stocked up.

[Timorzelorzworz]

13 minutes ago, Sokolov Edward said:

Despite the puffing up of the MOC developers, it is clear that no one has yet earned enough money to buy a real Ferrari by selling instructions

Me yes. You need to be good for what you doing. My Ferrari is parking in the garage

[Marvelous Bricks]

1 hour ago, johnnytifosi said:

Are you really trying to excuse TLG here? If the cost reduction through elimination of B-models was passed on to the consumers, that would be a valid argument, but we all know that in the past 5-6 years TLG is offering less (no B-models, no power functions, no hardware remotes, etc.), but we didn't see a single price drop by any metric, alas they are charging more and more. Do not try to make any sense of Lego pricing other than that people will just pay the price. It is obvious from the various knock-offs that still turn out a profit that the true cost per set is in the order of a few tens of dollars. It's just plastic ffs. Here is the obligatory reminder that for the same (inflation adjusted) price of the sorry G500 set you mentioned, Lego used to offer the Arocs with more parts, power functions, pneumatics, license AND a B-model. I rest my case.

Maybe I wasn’t clear enough but I did not excuse TLG here. Actually quite the opposite. The elimination of B models didn't cause a decrease in price for customers, but an addition of B models today would 100% cause a price increase in the sets. So, I wanted to point out the irony in loving the B models from LEGO but being bothered by unofficial paid B models from rebrickable. What I’m stating is that you (johnnytifosi) would be more willing to pay for a LEGO set with a B model that was released today that would be more expensive, than buying a set without a B model + an alternate build from rebrickable. You are bothered by designers that are trying to fill in a gap that LEGO has made by eliminating B models from their sets.

Edited September 16, 2024 by Marvelous Bricks

[Sokolov Edward]

5 minutes ago, Timorzelorzworz said:

Me yes. You need to be good for what you doing. My Ferrari is parking in the garage

Unfortunately rebrikable doesn't publish sales counters, otherwise I would laugh along with you. Usually they hide counters so as not to show how bad everything is.

[Timorzelorzworz]

23 minutes ago, Sokolov Edward said:

But Chinese factories are interested and they are now actively cooperating with authors

I'm sorry, but my heart is only Lego addicted. I love Lego and the products, the only thing I complain is the weird marketing and the "political correctness" they do. To me personal, working for a chinese manufacturer isn't an option. It feels like betrayal.

[Sokolov Edward]

9 minutes ago, Marvelous Bricks said:

The elimination of B models didn't cause a decrease in price for customers, but an addition of B models today would 100% cause a price increase in the sets.

I only buy Chinese kits and I can say that their manufacturers produce a whole range of kits that allow you to assemble several models. At the same time, the price of these kits is not particularly outstanding. There are also kits that are offered to buy in a pair with another and assemble a third option in the form of a more complex model - the instructions are available at the link on the box. But these are small kits with less than 1000 parts.

[johnnytifosi]

7 minutes ago, Marvelous Bricks said:

Maybe I wasn’t clear enough but I did not excuse TLG here. Actually quite the opposite. The elimination of B models didn't cause a decrease in price for customers, but an addition of B models today would 100% cause a price increase in the sets. So, I wanted to point out the irony in loving the B models from LEGO but being bothered by unofficial paid B models from rebrickable. What I’m stating is that you (johnnytifosi) would be more willing to pay for a LEGO set with a B model that was released today that would be more expensive than buying a set without a B model + an alternate build from rebrickable. You are bothered by designers that are trying to fill in a gap that LEGO has made by eliminating B models from their sets. 

 

That's purely a hypothesis. We don't know how pricing would change if B-models were reintroduced, but we know that prices increased even though B-models were eliminated. Moreover, the only product line still offering alternative builds (Creator 3-in-1) paradoxically seems to offer the best bang to buck in a price per amount of stuff perspective. As I said, the price of Lego is based only on what the market can bear, and everything else is unimportant, including B-models. This is why pricing can be inconsistent even across product lines: the most obscene pricing can be found in the product lines with the most fanboys or adult fans with the most disposable income, which are mostly some licensed themes (star wars, harry potter, "18+" Technic etc.).

[Sokolov Edward]

19 minutes ago, Timorzelorzworz said:

I'm sorry, but my heart is only Lego addicted. I love Lego and the products, the only thing I complain is the weird marketing and the "political correctness" they do. To me personal, working for a chinese manufacturer isn't an option. It feels like betrayal.

Then throw all the iPhones in the trash - without Chinese engineers and factories they would never have been produced. And this is not the only gadget that exists thanks to them.

Lego sets and parts are also made in China.

Edited September 16, 2024 by Sokolov Edward

[Timorzelorzworz]

What has IPhones to do with this thread and discussion 

[Sokolov Edward]

4 minutes ago, Timorzelorzworz said:

What has IPhones to do with this thread and discussion 

 

25 minutes ago, Timorzelorzworz said:

To me personal, working for a chinese manufacturer isn't an option. It feels like betrayal.

Don't iPhones smell like "betrayal"?

[Timorzelorzworz]

Jesus, related to Lego design topic...

I dont have Iphone. They are too expensive and I can't afford it with selling instructions cause my Ferrari costs that much

Edited September 16, 2024 by Timorzelorzworz

[Dazzzy]

This is an interesting discussion. Although I've never released Technic instructions for sale on Rebrickable, I do sell Speed Champions instructions on there. Worse still (depending on your opinion), they're not even B models of existing sets. I'm not very prolific at it (have only released 7 MOCs the 4 years I've held my account there), and overall despite some of my MOCs popularity, I've not actually earnt that much money for my endeavours. What money i have earned through selling my instructions on Rebrickable though, has made it possible for me to buy more Speed Champions sets, that otherwise i wouldn't be able to afford (i have a very limited amount of disposable income).

Ultimately, what I've earned through Rebrickable has ended back in TLG's pockets, (minus the cut that Rebrickable takes, for providing me with the service they provide). 

 

Edited September 16, 2024 by Dazzzy
additional sentence

[M_longer]

41 minutes ago, Sokolov Edward said:

Unfortunately rebrikable doesn't publish sales counters, otherwise I would laugh along with you. Usually they hide counters so as not to show how bad everything is.

Why are you so interested in someone's money?

[Sokolov Edward]

9 minutes ago, Timorzelorzworz said:

Jesus, related to Lego design topic...

I dont have Iphone. They are too expensive and I can't afford it with selling instructions cause my Ferrari costs that much

The joke turned out to be good, but when I started working with Lego Technic, I saw a lot in common between Apple and Lego policies - high prices, total monetization of each add-on (application or instruction), chronic lagging behind Chinese copy-pasters in new products, legal pressure on Chinese competitors, etc. The policy of the manufacturer is reflected in the user communities around its products.

[Timorzelorzworz]

This might be all true what you say but has nothing to do with this topic. Btw Lego produces not only in china. Components are made in denmark of course, Mexico, Hungary and Kladno, CZ

[keymaker]

This topic will never die because there will be always delusional people who think they can decide how other people value private time and skill.