Thoughts on the Second Wave

[SBCMayor]

I really enjoyed ranking the sets in the first wave and really appreciated the responses and ensuing discussion. In that discussion I mentioned I'd eventually share some thoughts on the second wave, which I consider 1992-1993. The shift from the Imperial Soldiers to Imperial Guards marks the beginning of the second wave. And while I realize the Imperial Guards were still making appearances after 1993, by 1994 the Islanders had more or less replaced them. And while the Islanders were a pretty cool theme in their own right, I never really got into them or really any of the pirate sets after 1993. 

I am not going to try to rank the entire second wave the way I did the first wave, though I definitely will rank the biggest sets at the end. Instead I want to share a few thoughts on what I love about the second wave. 

First and most obviously: the switch from blue to red. This is such an awesome concept and as a kid I loved that Lego did it. I love it as an adult now. I loved the potential that a peer force to the Imperial Guards was in play now. The 1992 series was basically the Imperial Flagship and Imperial Trading Post with a few smaller complementary sets. On the pirate side Lego was still coasting from the Black Seas Barracuda, Forbidden Island, and Rock Island Refuge so they really didn't need anything big on that side. But the dynamic the introduction of the Imperial Guards made...epic!

By 1992 I had a few soldier sets, most notably Lagoon Lockup and Sabre Island, with a few others to shore up my small imperial force. But when the 1992 lineup came out I immediately bought the Bounty Boat and Smuggler's Shanty as well as hit up my parents for the Imperial Flagship for Christmas. When I actually got it, I had a nice little force of both Soldiers and Guards, and a nice band of pirates (without a ship). I really liked the Imperial Trading Post too, and had a cousin who had both that and the Imperial Flagship. So that didn't create any envy or anything. 

But the second wave wasn't done yet. 1993 brought some amazing additions. Still trying to build my Imperial Guard force, I bought Cannon Cove, even though I didn't really care for the design and still don't. What I should have done was hold onto my mowing money until I could get the Renegade Runner, Lego's first "small" pirate ship. I loved that they issued a smaller ship instead of a hideout. Seems pirates would have plenty of each but so far our lego pirates had two major hideouts and a couple smaller ones, but only one ship. I loved the thought of multiple pirate ships, either sailing together or as rival gangs. And of course, since I had an Imperial Flagship, I needed a pirate ship to hunt down, not a lame outpost like Cannon Cove. Definitely should have held onto my money for the bigger better, more complementary set. Thankfully my parents sort of helped me make up for my mistake by getting the Renegade Runner for my little brother. 

And of course, who can forget the big gun in 1993, the Skull's Eye Schooner. At the time I was like, "whoa, a bigger, scarier Black Seas Barracuda!" If that is what they were going for it definitely worked. 

A few months ago when I decided to try to collect some of these vintage sets I did acknowledge I probably wouldn't buy both ships. My sentiment was biased toward the BSB because of the imagination it inspired. But I gave the SES a long look as well because I remember the intimidation factor that ship presented. But as an adult, watching many a video review of both ships, and considering the cost on sites like Ebay and Bricklink, this was an easy choice.

And so, where would I rank the top 4 sets from the second wave?

Fourth Place: Skull's Eye Schooner. I know this set was supposed to be the big one from this wave, but I can't put it above the other 3 big offerings. While it is definitely a cool ship in its own right, I just don't see it as an improvement over the BSB. If the 1989 and 1991 sets never existed, this would be ranked higher. But even if I'm trying to consider this second wave completely within itself, it's hard to remove that bias. This ship doesn't anchor the wave the way the BSB does for the first wave.

Third Place: Renegade Runner. Ironically enough, the smallest ship in the series does a lot its larger counterpart can't do. First and foremost: accessibility! In 1993 this little beauty would set you back just $40 USD, less than 1/3 of the cost of a SES. $40 and you are on your way to pillaging and plundering then making a fast escape in your small, fast ship. Obviously the design left some room for improvement. I don't like the swivel gun and the ship is missing its wheel (which makes sense from a playable perspective). It could benefit from some rigging pieces too. Secondly, the RR fills a niche role in the series. It's not a fort, it's a ship. But a small one. I love that instead of another pirate hideout Lego gave us another ship. I now have two of these and they make for fine escorts to Captain Redbeard's flagship, the Black Seas Barracuda. 

Second Place: Imperial Trading Post. I remember this set being just epic when I was a kid. I love that they didn't just do another El Dorado Fortress for the big set, but went trading post instead. I love the merchant figures and the small merchant ship. And while I have a strong bias for ships over forts, the difference between this set and the Renegade Runner is just immense. I've not yet purchased this in my shopping spree and it's not a definite that I will. This set holds its value on secondary markets, so finding one that is nice, playable, but not quite collector grade can be a bit tricky. But if I happen to find one, it'll be hard for me to resist.

First Place: Imperial Flagship. I just love this ship. It was my first ship in this series when I was a kid, and it'll always be a very special set for that reason. My parents were not well off by any stretch, and this beauty cost around $50 in 1992 so I felt very fortunate to get it. I feel even more fortunate to have gotten a very clean copy today for under $180! It is in immaculate shape and just like it did when it entered my little corner of the Lego Carribean in 1992, will very likely cause some havoc to both the Soldiers and Pirates alike today too. 

As for the smaller sets, I had several though none of them were as awe inspiring to me as the first wave. And while I liked the change in design emphasis from Eldorado to ITP  I really do not care for any of the smaller imperial sets. I mentioned I "settled" for Cannon Cove as a kid, but I am not making that mistake again. I've purchased an extra Sabre Island and swapped out the Soldiers for Imperial Guards. I am doing the same thing to Lagoon Lockup. I may not ever get that ITP but I've got to give their ground forces something! 

And while this is just my opinion, I think it reflects, at least for me, how much better the first wave is than the second.

So let me know your thoughts. Do you agree, or are you all ready to make me walk the plank?

 

[Mister Phes]

2 hours ago, SBCMayor said:

I'd eventually share some thoughts on the second wave, which I consider 1992-1993. The shift from the Imperial Soldiers to Imperial Guards marks the beginning of the second wave. And while I realize the Imperial Guards were still making appearances after 1993, by 1994 the Islanders had more or less replaced them. And while the Islanders were a pretty cool theme in their own right, I never really got into them or really any of the pirate sets after 1993.  

I agree 1992-1993 marks the second wave, while 1994, I.e. the year of the Islanders marks the third wave...

However, which wave do 6279 Skull Harbour, 6263 Imperial Outpost and 6254 Rocky Reef from 1995 fit into?

They seem to fit better with the second wave, than with the third, Islander focused wave and fourth, Imperial Armada focused wave.

 

[SpacePolice89]

I like all Pirates sets equally up until the sets released in 1997. I still like those but not as much as the earlier ones. There I notice a small drop in design quality. The 2009 and 2015 sets felt too junior-ized for me while I still appreciate them because we rarely get new sets. The current trend with 18+ sets such as the new Eldorado Fortress feels a bit too polished and studless for my liking while still being great sets.  

Edited September 25, 2024 by SpacePolice89

[SBCMayor]

7 hours ago, Mister Phes said:

I agree 1992-1993 marks the second wave, while 1994, I.e. the year of the Islanders marks the third wave...

However, which wave do 6279 Skull Harbour, 6263 Imperial Outpost and 6254 Rocky Reef from 1995 fit into?

They seem to fit better with the second wave, than with the third, Islander focused wave and fourth, Imperial Armada focused wave.

 

They do fit better with the second wave because the presence of Imperial Guards is consistent with that wave. But they're outliers, they're still not truly second wave sets. 

My younger brother had a few of the Islander sets but by the time the Imperial Armada series arrived I had (for the time) outgrown collecting Legos. I've put a lot of research into what to focus on and I've decided to focus on the sets from 1989-1993. 

 

[SBCMayor]

4 hours ago, SpacePolice89 said:

I like all Pirates sets equally up until the sets released in 1997. I still like those but not as much as the earlier ones. There I notice a small drop in design quality. The 2009 and 2015 sets felt too junior-ized for me while I still appreciate them because we rarely get new sets. The current trend with 18+ sets such as the new Eldorado Fortress feels a bit too polished and studless for my liking while still being great sets.  

I agree with you on the "junior-ized" sentiments. When I started my research I did look at some of the sets from the mid-90s and feel they just don't hit the mark the way the first and second waves do. In fact, after the second wave, I really don't think any of the sets in the pirate series are must-haves, with some noteworthy exceptions: 

Imperial Flagship (this one, not the one from 1992).

Pirates of Barracuda Bay

Creator 3&1 Pirate Ship (more a pirate flavored creator set, but it's a really good ship nonetheless).

Icons Eldorado Fortress (as cool as this is, I am glad I went with the original).

[SpacePolice89]

3 hours ago, SBCMayor said:

I agree with you on the "junior-ized" sentiments. When I started my research I did look at some of the sets from the mid-90s and feel they just don't hit the mark the way the first and second waves do. In fact, after the second wave, I really don't think any of the sets in the pirate series are must-haves, with some noteworthy exceptions: 

Imperial Flagship (this one, not the one from 1992).

Pirates of Barracuda Bay

Creator 3&1 Pirate Ship (more a pirate flavored creator set, but it's a really good ship nonetheless).

Icons Eldorado Fortress (as cool as this is, I am glad I went with the original).

The Creator Pirate ship is really nice, I hope they release a new Creator Pirates set when they discontinue it in December 2025. I really like the Creator sets. The Creator Castle is also fantastic. Have you noticed that it's impossible to write the word "junior-ized" properly on Eurobricks due to censorship? I'll write it below to show what happens.

<insert that tiresome argument>

They should remove this censorship because it is a term that is very important when discussing what happened to Lego in the late 90s and early 00s.

[Yperio_Bricks]

21 minutes ago, SpacePolice89 said:

Have you noticed that it's impossible to write the word "junior-ized" properly on Eurobricks due to censorship? I'll write it below to show what happens.

Yeah, this topic came up before. I can only guess that there were some heated discussions in the past, so eventually the word was banned. But that must have happened a long time ago and maybe it is time to lift the ban?!?

[zinnn]

I like those topics, but can we (as in the OP or mods) include photos with each set description?

[SBCMayor]

5 hours ago, SpacePolice89 said:

The Creator Pirate ship is really nice, I hope they release a new Creator Pirates set when they discontinue it in December 2025. I really like the Creator sets. The Creator Castle is also fantastic. Have you noticed that it's impossible to write the word "junior-ized" properly on Eurobricks due to censorship? I'll write it below to show what happens.

<insert that tiresome argument>

They should remove this censorship because it is a term that is very important when discussing what happened to Lego in the late 90s and early 00s.

I like a lot of the Creator series sets. They have several beach cabins and surf shops and since I am into that sort of thing I really enjoy these sets. I live in a coast city in the U.S. and my sons and I have built a nice town modeled after our home, including a "surf district" comprised mostly of creator sets and a tiki bar we built ourselves. 

The Creator Pirate ship is awesome. Of all the 3 in 1 sets we have, this one is the one we want to get 3 of the most so we can build all 3 builds! I also really think the Viking ship looks awesome, but my interest in pirates far surpasses my interest in Vikings. 

[SpacePolice89]

8 hours ago, Yperio_Bricks said:

Yeah, this topic came up before. I can only guess that there were some heated discussions in the past, so eventually the word was banned. But that must have happened a long time ago and maybe it is time to lift the ban?!?

Who has the power to lift such a ban when it is sitewide? 

3 hours ago, SBCMayor said:

I like a lot of the Creator series sets. They have several beach cabins and surf shops and since I am into that sort of thing I really enjoy these sets. I live in a coast city in the U.S. and my sons and I have built a nice town modeled after our home, including a "surf district" comprised mostly of creator sets and a tiki bar we built ourselves. 

The Creator Pirate ship is awesome. Of all the 3 in 1 sets we have, this one is the one we want to get 3 of the most so we can build all 3 builds! I also really think the Viking ship looks awesome, but my interest in pirates far surpasses my interest in Vikings. 

It is nice to live near the coast. I have a beach near my home where I like to take pictures of sets and minifigs, especially pirate ones.

 

Edited September 26, 2024 by SpacePolice89

[Mister Phes]

13 hours ago, SBCMayor said:

They do fit better with the second wave because the presence of Imperial Guards is consistent with that wave. [...] I've put a lot of research into what to focus on and I've decided to focus on the sets from 1989-1993. 

Ok, we'll save them for wave 3.5!

 

4 hours ago, zinnn said:

I like those topics, but can we (as in the OP or mods) include photos with each set description?

I agree photos would help illustrate the sets and perhaps attract more discussion from those who find text heavy pages detracting.  But the topic author seems to have ethical concerns against using other peoples' images.

 

8 hours ago, Yperio_Bricks said:

I can only guess that there were some heated discussions in the past, so eventually the word was banned.

As I recall; back in the mid 2000s various admins had disdain for the word in general, due to their disdain for the sets it described.

So the word was banned to force forum members to write more creatively.

[AViewToALego]

I "Bricklinked" the Skull's Eye Schooner during the Pandemic, then printed out paper sails and all. And I can honestly say this is my favorite Pirate Ship. It is now proudly sitting on top of my TV in the bedroom. I will agree that the highlights of this wave is the Schooner, the Trading Post, as well as the Imperial Flagship. All of these sets are truly great and epic. I started the project of bricklinking the Trading Post during the pandemic, but then lost interest (unfortunately). Will propably continue some day when I have more time at hand.

Smuggler's Shanty and Cannon Cove are pretty cool as well. Overall a great wave that introduced the Redcoats! Pirate Plunder brings a lot of nostalgia for me.

Edited September 26, 2024 by AViewToALego

[SBCMayor]

On 9/26/2024 at 12:33 AM, Mister Phes said:

I agree photos would help illustrate the sets and perhaps attract more discussion from those who find text heavy pages detracting.  But the topic author seems to have ethical concerns against using other peoples' images.

 

It also turns out my size limit for photos is very small. I'd have to really reformat some of the pics (I'll play around with that at some point) or reduce their size to the point they wouldn't be worth sharing. I'm guessing with a little more time in the forum media capacity increases? I'm not a great photographer but I do have a few pics of the early stages of my set up design I'd like to share. 

[Yperio_Bricks]

33 minutes ago, SBCMayor said:

It also turns out my size limit for photos is very small. I'd have to really reformat some of the pics (I'll play around with that at some point) or reduce their size to the point they wouldn't be worth sharing. I'm guessing with a little more time in the forum media capacity increases? I'm not a great photographer but I do have a few pics of the early stages of my set up design I'd like to share. 

Eurobricks does not allow the upload of big files and the available space is very limited for every user. The best is to use a image hosting service like bricksafe, imgur, flickr or basically any other website where you can upload your pictures. Then simply add the link to the picture to your Eurobricks post and the picture will be shown automatically (if the picture is not shown in the EB post, it is the wrong link).

[SBCMayor]

3 minutes ago, Yperio_Bricks said:

Eurobricks does not allow the upload of big files and the available space is very limited for every user. The best is to use a image hosting service like bricksafe, imgur, flickr or basically any other website where you can upload your pictures. Then simply add the link to the picture to your Eurobricks post and the picture will be shown automatically (if the picture is not shown in the EB post, it is the wrong link).

Thank you, and something like this is the other option I was going to explore. I definitely appreciate the lead! 

[Mister Phes]

17 hours ago, SBCMayor said:

It also turns out my size limit for photos is very small. I'd have to really reformat some of the pics (I'll play around with that at some point) or reduce their size to the point they wouldn't be worth sharing. I'm guessing with a little more time in the forum media capacity increases?

As a temporary measure, I've increased your attachment limit.

But like @Yperio_Bricks mentioned, you're better off hosting your images externally - Flickr is good because you can also share images with the Classic Pirates Flickr Group and get some additional mileage out of them.

 

[SBCMayor]

6 hours ago, Mister Phes said:

As a temporary measure, I've increased your attachment limit.

But like @Yperio_Bricks mentioned, you're better off hosting your images externally - Flickr is good because you can also share images with the Classic Pirates Flickr Group and get some additional mileage out of them.

 

That was very thoughtful of you, thank you. I also checked out the group on Flickr. There are some awesome works of art there! I am not anywhere near that level, I'm just combining what's available. I love seeing the MOCs on this site and others. Some of the creativity is mind blowing!

[TheCosmicTravelers]

6266 Cannon Cove is one of my favorite small Imperial sets simply because it looks more like what I think forts at the time actually looked like (well at least part of a fort)!  Too often I see Imperial fortress MOCS with high castle walls like it is still the Middle Ages when the ongoing development of artillery actually led to massive redesigns in fortifications.  I just wish the set came with another soldier or two (the Imperial Guard sets in general came with too few soldier minifigs compared with the Imperial Soldier sets).

I think 6277 (a port with docks) is a more fun and dynamic set than 6276 (a fortress) even though 6276 may have more solid structures. 6277 also has far better alternate models than 6276.

[SBCMayor]

On 9/29/2024 at 9:36 PM, TheCosmicTravelers said:

6266 Cannon Cove is one of my favorite small Imperial sets simply because it looks more like what I think forts at the time actually looked like (well at least part of a fort)!  Too often I see Imperial fortress MOCS with high castle walls like it is still the Middle Ages when the ongoing development of artillery actually led to massive redesigns in fortifications.  I just wish the set came with another soldier or two (the Imperial Guard sets in general came with too few soldier minifigs compared with the Imperial Soldier sets).

I think 6277 (a port with docks) is a more fun and dynamic set than 6276 (a fortress) even though 6276 may have more solid structures. 6277 also has far better alternate models than 6276.

I think one of the things I didn't care for about it was the awkward dimensions of the plate it came on. It makes it hard to integrate with other sets. I think the solid green color was something else I didn't really care for. It seemed too basic and not "Pirate Theme" enough for me. I would have rather it been on a yellow sand colored plate than the one-sided green plate. It could have been a larger, Imperial complement to Smuggler's Shanty that way. I liked the little prickly bush accessory, (Cannon Cove was my introduction to this piece) but felt it should have had a palm tree. 

 

Regarding the difference between Eldorado and Imperial Trading Post, I do agree the addition of a second blue plate complete with docks and buildings really made ITP an ambitious set. I recently won Eldorado in an Ebay auction and shortly thereafter purchased ITP outright. Both have a little wear and tear but for their ages have a lot of life left in them, especially for what I paid! The docks on ITP have actually inspired me to experiment with something similar for Eldorado, especially given it already has a small dock along the front of the structure. I love the idea of using Sabre Island as a structure on the dock side of the extension, simply pulling it off the printed plate and setting in on a wider, corner portion of the dock. I think it would look awesome. And of course, integrating them together is always an option, though I always view the Imperial Guards and Soldiers as rivals not allies. 

 

[Doddsino]

On 9/25/2024 at 5:15 AM, SpacePolice89 said:

I like all Pirates sets equally up until the sets released in 1997. I still like those but not as much as the earlier ones. 

I have no idea what they were going for in 1997, it felt like they were creatively worn out. I almost would have preferred if they held off on the Armada sets for 1997 if they didn't have anything in the pipeline. 

It's not that the 1997 sets are bad, they're just a pretty big step down. The Clipper was okay, but considering we got two superior ships the year before, it was a pretty large pass for me. The large base was super weak with the two dimensional boulder...like what was the decision there? The very same year they had another set (6748) that came with a  boulder, so what's the deal? The ambush set is just *there*. It doesn't have anything that makes it stand out.

Honestly, it's a scenario where they could have done several things;

1. Hold off on the 1996 Armada sets and release them in 1997.

2. Take a year break to focus on better ideas.

3. Come up with yet another "faction" to compete with the Pirates. Maybe some Portuguese or Dutch sailors..maybe some colonists? Or a rival Pirates band?

As it stands, 1997 basically killed off the Pirates theme. Now I have no idea if that was the reasoning, but I do remember seeing these sets in stores discounted heavily along with a lot of the 1996 sets, so maybe it wasn't a financially profitable line any more, but I know I wasn't interested in any of these, especially after 5 excellent years in a row with far better sets.

[SpacePolice89]

3 hours ago, Doddsino said:

I have no idea what they were going for in 1997, it felt like they were creatively worn out. I almost would have preferred if they held off on the Armada sets for 1997 if they didn't have anything in the pipeline. 

It's not that the 1997 sets are bad, they're just a pretty big step down. The Clipper was okay, but considering we got two superior ships the year before, it was a pretty large pass for me. The large base was super weak with the two dimensional boulder...like what was the decision there? The very same year they had another set (6748) that came with a  boulder, so what's the deal? The ambush set is just *there*. It doesn't have anything that makes it stand out.

Honestly, it's a scenario where they could have done several things;

1. Hold off on the 1996 Armada sets and release them in 1997.

2. Take a year break to focus on better ideas.

3. Come up with yet another "faction" to compete with the Pirates. Maybe some Portuguese or Dutch sailors..maybe some colonists? Or a rival Pirates band?

As it stands, 1997 basically killed off the Pirates theme. Now I have no idea if that was the reasoning, but I do remember seeing these sets in stores discounted heavily along with a lot of the 1996 sets, so maybe it wasn't a financially profitable line any more, but I know I wasn't interested in any of these, especially after 5 excellent years in a row with far better sets.

In the late 90s they brought in a lot of new designers with fancy diplomas but with very little understanding of Lego. They even changed the title from designer to innovator. Maybe that's the reason for the sudden drop in design quality?

[Doddsino]

7 hours ago, SpacePolice89 said:

They even changed the title from designer to innovator. 

Kind of ironic since none of the the sets from 1997 were innovative whatsoever. Two of them looked like reject sets from the year prior. 

And this might sound strange, but a lack of a small set always hurts a series since as a kid I would usually "get into" a new line through the purchase of a small set that I would eventually try to accumulate more sets to accommodate it. It's the reason why as a kid Castle was usually bought the least since it typically had less small sets than the other themes.

[DonQuixote]

On 10/16/2024 at 7:27 AM, SpacePolice89 said:

In the late 90s they brought in a lot of new designers with fancy diplomas but with very little understanding of Lego. They even changed the title from designer to innovator. Maybe that's the reason for the sudden drop in design quality?

Fright Knight sets are really bad designed. They are so ugly. Can't imagine somebody prefers this over the more classic castles like Black Knights, Black Falcons and Crusaders castles. The Fright Knight minifigs were cool but the castles.... Terrible 

[TalonCard]

I think this is really more of a "your milage may vary situation--famously the same designer did both Night Lord's Castle and the original Yellow Castle, so it was more that the overall corporate directive of the company had shifted more towards fewer and more specialized pieces, and the designers followed suit, rather than that there were a bunch of new designers mucking things up. But even that's not the full story--Forbidden Island, for example, is designed almost entirely around large specialized pieces. I love Forbidden Island for nostalgic reasons, but I'd argue that Pirates Perilous Pitfall is a more interesting, ambitious set with maybe the best shipwreck design in the whole of the original pirate theme, plus an island with a nicely varied environment.