Real Life Forts in the Caribbean

[Mister Phes]

5 hours ago, TheCosmicTravelers said:

6266 Cannon Cove is one of my favorite small Imperial sets simply because it looks more like what I think forts at the time actually looked like (well at least part of a fort)! 

T'would be interesting to see the type of forts you're envisioning...

Forts generally aren't tall structures because that makes them easy targets prone to collapsing.

But I'm yet to find one located in/near that Caribbean that looks similar to Cannon Cove.

At the expense of digressing from the topic here be some real forts....

Fort Beekenburg – Curacao

 

Castillo de San Marcos – St. Augustine, Florida

 

El Morro Fort and Castillo San Cristobal

 

Castillo San Felipe del Morro – San Juan, Puerto Rico

[Jiesdeo]

If I could guess, the yellow and white of the Lego Pirate's fortresses might be inspired by Fort Christiansvaern in St. Croix, which was a Danish colony until 1817.

[NOD]

A collab between  @CapOnBOBS and @KotZ .

 

 

BOBS Forts Flickr

 

LargeCollabFort by D Capo, auf Flickr

Edited October 5, 2024 by NOD

[KotZ]

5 hours ago, NOD said:

A collab between  @CapOnBOBS and @KotZ .

 

 

BOBS Forts Flickr

 

LargeCollabFort by D Capo, auf Flickr

Oh wow blast from the past. I forgot about that one.

[Mister Phes]

Here is an artistic render by Cristian Boiardi of what LEGO Fort may look like if it had been constructed in real life...

 

[Yperio_Bricks]

That's beautiful

[Dreamweb]

This is excellent, I want to visit a fort like this.

[Jack Sassy]

On 10/8/2024 at 6:36 PM, Mister Phes said:

Here is an artistic render by Cristian Boiardi of what LEGO Fort may look like if it had been constructed in real life...

 

It seems that this render suggests a LEGO fortress of being a Spanish one. Based on the lighter tones that LEGO fortresses are known for, the idea of them being Spanish is not far fetched, though @Jiesdeo's guess is a really good one. In general, LEGO forts draw inspiration from all kinds of fortresses all around Caribbean - be it Spanish, British or French. If we removed all the plaster from a LEGO fortress, it would look more like Fort Charles in Port Royal.  Someone could write a research paper on this subject. 

 

[Mister Phes]

16 minutes ago, Jack Sassy said:

Someone could write a research paper on this subject. 

Go on, Jack... be that academic!

[Jack Sassy]

23 minutes ago, Mister Phes said:

Go on, Jack... be that academic!

I would not dare to. 

[SBCMayor]

20 hours ago, Jack Sassy said:

It seems that this render suggests a LEGO fortress of being a Spanish one. Based on the lighter tones that LEGO fortresses are known for, the idea of them being Spanish is not far fetched, though @Jiesdeo's guess is a really good one. In general, LEGO forts draw inspiration from all kinds of fortresses all around Caribbean - be it Spanish, British or French. If we removed all the plaster from a LEGO fortress, it would look more like Fort Charles in Port Royal.  Someone could write a research paper on this subject. 

 

I always cast the Imperial Soldiers as Spanish given the name Eldorado Fortress sounds very Spanish. When the theme came out I lived in the U.S. State of Colorado, an area Spanish Conquistadors explored in the 1500s. Hundreds years later their lore remains: that state name the Conquistadors gave the area literally translates into "Colored Red" because of the color of the mountains when the sunrise hits them as well as many of the rock formations in the region. A lot of legends surrounding Conquistador expeditions are tied to the area, as well as Northern New Mexico.

So even though Eldorado Fortress was period-designed to be more 1700s than 1500s it made perfect sense to me that it was a base of operations for Spanish expeditions from the Carribean onto the mainland and points beyond. Of course, naming their ship the Carribean Clipper further cemented to me these were Spanish imperials in the Carribean since the ship was named after the Carribean and the Spanish were the prevailing power in that area. (Not sure why I couldn't apply this ship name logic to the Black Seas Barracuda.) 

Only when I started researching vintage sets again, watching video reviews, etc did I realize the Imperial Soldiers were always considered French! No worries, they also had a presence in the Carribean in the 1700s. But for me they will always be Spanish! 

On 10/8/2024 at 11:36 AM, Mister Phes said:

Here is an artistic render by Cristian Boiardi of what LEGO Fort may look like if it had been constructed in real life...

 

This is just gorgeous and makes me wish I was artistic or skilled in photoshop. 

[Jack Sassy]

On 10/12/2024 at 3:29 PM, SBCMayor said:

I realize the Imperial Soldiers were always considered French!

But we have evidence to support yer argument about Spanish: when Redcoats (presumably British soldiers) were introduced in 1992, they made their base of operations in similar structures as the French. One could assume that both of these powers took over forts from the Spanish. However, with the British, these builds saw a new addition - angled roofs in red:

At last, when the Spanish made their debut in 1996, we saw similar structures, just with green doors and such:

(I love this set )

 

We see a lot more ruins in the last two years of Classic Pirates. It is possible that Spanish Armada came back to reclaim what was once theirs. Let us assume for a second that the first ruling power in LEGO Pirates universe were the Spanish. As time passed by, they were pushed out of power by French (bluecoats) and British (redcoats) armies. With this in mind, both of these new armies would set their base of operations in Spanish built fortresses and outposts, perhaps adding few of their own flares.  That would explain why all of these buildings had exposed masonry bricks in the 1989 - 1995 sets. While Armada Sentry is the only real set that features some form of Armada fortifications, one could assume that other buildings were destroyed at this point. This one looks like a newly built post anyway. Of course, that just be my theory on these structures. I am really tempted to write that paper.  (One would need more knowledge on the history of this theme, like @TalonCard.)

[TalonCard]

A great analysis, @Jack Sassy! If I might blend some real world history with the established lore of the theme:

First off, a couple of things to get out of the way: I do read and consume a lot of media about this time in history, but I am by no means a historian or an expert who can cite sources at the drop of a hat. All of the below information is incredibly generalized and simplified, and those more knowledgeable than myself can certainly correct me on some points. Also, regarding the "official" lore, one is certainly free to take it or leave it; LEGO is supposed to be about using your own imagination and making your own stories. I happen to find that the LEGO lore and pirate LEGO lore in particular is interesting enough that it's worth writing about, but it's not worth restricting anyone's imagination or creativity.

That being said, I think Jack Sassy's theory about the Imperial redcoats and Bluecoats occupying former Spanish structures in the area makes a lot of sense. In the comics and storybooks, the setting for the 1989-1992 pirates is the "Tropical Sea", a fictional settings that is indicated to be either in or the same as in the real-world Caribbean, as indicated by the US name "Caribbean Clipper", the UK name for Rock Island Refuge "Port Jamaica", and multiple catalogs explicitly placing the theme in the Caribbean. The name "Eldorado Fortress" used in the US for the soldier's main base also gives weight to this connection. This roughly parallels real world history, where ports established by the Spanish were later taken over by other imperial powers. A good example of this is Port Royal in Jamaica, which was established first by the Spanish and then belonged to a whole succession of other groups, including pirates and the English. In fact, while it's a different location, being on the fictional LEGO island of Sabatina, the home base for the bluecoats and redcoats is literally named "Port Royal" in the lore, and was used as an alternate set name for the Imperial Trading Post in the UK and some European countries.

The US backstory printed on the set boxes makes it clear that Spanish treasures had been buried on the islands generations before by the ancestors of the pirates. This Spanish connection would be doubled down on in the German Time Cruisers audio drama SOS aus der Vergangenheit, where Captain Redbeard directly states (with some sense of pride) that his ancestors came from Spain. So the LEGO pirates are, as a group, most likely descended from a group of people from Spain, rather than from a group of older pirates who had stolen Spanish treasure.

This is a departure from real-world history, where most of the 17th and 18th century pirates you've probably heard of (not all, but most) were not Spanish, but rather often opposed to them. This was because Spain was at war off and on again with other imperial powers for a long time. Whenever those wars stopped, there were lots of experienced sailors, soldiers, and privateers who were used to fighting the Spanish (and taking a cut from seized Spanish goods in many cases) but were suddenly out of work. Meanwhile, Spain continued to ship all kinds of resources, including gold, in large quantities on regular schedules back to Europe. So it was extremely tempting and profitable to attack Spanish shipping in particular, and because there was a lot of anti-Spanish sentiment for a number of reasons, a lot of governors and other officials were happy to look the other way and provide safe havens, documentation (many pirates had some kind of "permission", however dubious, to attack ships of other nations), and markets for pirates to take refuge and sell their goods. They had an additional incentive to do so because it was always a possibility that war with Spain would begin again, and many colonies in the area were under defended in the event of a Spanish attack. So it made sense for them to be on good terms with a well armed force, even if they were pirates.

However, even though the LEGO Pirates are Spanish in origin, they don't appear to have any particular affiliation with or sympathy for the Spanish government by the time the theme begins. The lore of the 1996 Imperial Armada era established the Imperial Admiral as a longtime foe of Redbeard, and while Redbeard does help out a group of Spanish sailors in the earlier German audio drama Das goldene Schiff (1990), it's only after the bluecoat Governor Broadside has stolen their ship while Redbeard had been preparing his own attack. So it seems likely that the ancestors of the LEGO Pirates were probably one of the many influential but marginalized groups pushed out of Spain around that time (take your pick), and into Spanish colonies in the Tropical Sea, before the bluecoats came in and established their own colonies.

Now, one of the other points about LEGO Pirate lore that is consistent across decades of storytelling but is often overlooked, ignored, or rejected by fans is that the Redcoats and Bluecoats belong to the same faction. People really, really love to say that the Bluecoats are clearly French and the Redcoats are clearly British, and/or that they represent different fictional opposing empires, and they're welcome to do so, but it's just not the case in the lore. (In the "real world", militaries from these countries and many others would use red, blue, and other colors besides at the same time too.) In the lore, the "Bluecoats" are the local soldiers commanded by Governor Broadside, who administers the surrounding islands from the fictional island of Sabatina. The "Redcoats" are the Imperial Guard, an elite force answerable to the King himself, and responsible for protection of Imperial treasures, shipping, navigation, and exploration across the Empire. The fact that they are from the same side is pretty well established in multiple ways throughout the Pirates lore:

• While the field and color of the flags are different, the coat of arms is essentially the same: a crown and crossed cannon 
• Because sets were in rotation for much, much longer in the 90s, there was considerable overlap in the availability of bluecoat and Imperial Guard sets, so they were shown in catalogs as belonging to the same faction
• The King of the bluecoat's home country wears a red coat in the storybook The Royal Visit
• Governor Broadside himself wears a red coat alongside his bluecoat lieutenant in sculptures created for touring shows and LEGOLAND Billund in the 90s. (You can still see the one in Billund to this day, I believe.)
• In America, the very similar Bluecoat and Redcoat leader minifigures were treated as the exact same character: Governor Broadside, so there was a clear continuity of leadership
  • In the video game LEGO Battles, the leader of the 2009 Imperial Guard (who himself wore blue) was also treated as the same Governor Broadside character, and commanded Bluecoats in the game
• In the rest of the world, while the Redcoat leader was treated as a separate character named Admiral Woodhouse, he was presented as someone who was in conflict with Governor Broadside only in that as he disagreed about how to handle the threat posed by the pirates. The names used in the UK and other countries for the Imperial Trading Post Redcoat base include "Port Royal" and "Fenzance", both established ports (albeit two different ones) on the bluecoat island of Sabatina in the maps included in the 90s story and activity books. Woodhouse sails out of Fenzance in the German audio drama Piratensegel am Horizont.

I think overall the most sensible conclusion to make if one takes the official lore into account is that the redcoat/bluecoat Imperial faction is from a fictional European power rather than directly connected to any existing one. LEGO made a clear choice in not including the flags for any specific nationality, but rather designed a unique coat of arms to represent both sets of soldiers. LEGO has historically been reluctant to depict armed conflict between two nations, so this is no coincidence, and I do respect that. (This is probably one reason why the cancelled Europa theme, which did seem to have large numbers of opposing red and bluecoats, never made it off the ground.) Because of this, there's also no evidence that the redcoats took over territory from the bluecoats--the political situation is treated as being stable throughout the entire storyline of the pirate theme, even though focus has shifted back and forth between the bluecoats and Imperial Guards up to and including the recent Eldorado Fortress remake. The names used for Imperial characters are a combination of French, British, Spanish, and entirely made up names of various influences.

Still one could make the case that the redcoat/bluecoat Imperial faction is either British or French. There is precedent for this as the 1996 Imperial Armada and Fort Legoredo military members are clearly from Spain and the United States and are treated as such in the lore, even though in these cases LEGO also chose not to include national flags and opted for some kind of simplified coat of arms instead.  The waters are further muddied by the fact that the original bluecoats were indeed based on 18th century French naval and marine forces, and the use of the fleur-de-lis, which was often (though not exclusively) used by French royalty, on the bluecoat flag. If one insists on associating the Imperial Guards/Bluecoat combined faction with a particular nation, France is probably your best bet. It's also possible that the Imperials in the pirates theme represent some kind of combined British/French alliance, and there are a few other scenarios also compatible with the lore. But while I can understand the play value and desire to see the two factions as representing separate, opposing nations, it's not supported by the story materials except maybe in the computer game LEGO Chess, where arbitrary opposing sides sorted by color are the rule anyway. 

We can at least rule out the Spain as the country of origin for bluecoat/redcoat empire, (in spite of the "Eldorado Fortress" name, which wasn't used much outside the American market in the 90s anyway) since in Das goldene Schiff (1990), the bluecoat Broadside captures a Spanish ship and then has to hide it from representatives of his own country, which is said not to be at war with Spain and is therefore a separate entity.

That would mostly settle the issue, but when the distinctly Spanish influenced Imperial Armada was released in 1996, it too had some overlap with the earlier Imperial Guard sets, particularly the Imperial Outpost, which had only just been released the previous year. As they had with the bluecoat soldiers and redcoat Imperial Guards, LEGO treated both the Imperial Guards and the Imperial Armada as the same faction, putting the Imperial Outpost under the Imperial Armada banner in 1996. The game LEGO Chess also had a series of cutscenes that, rather than depicting the chess gameplay itself, told a new LEGO pirate story. In these, Admiral Woodhouse and the Imperial Guard are also shown to be part of the Imperial Armada. So while the two factions were initially unrelated, a strong case can be made that the bluecoat/redcoat empire joined forces with the Spanish empire of the Imperial Armada, at least for a time.

Edited October 12, 2024 by TalonCard

[Alexandrina]

I'd be fascinated to know whether any material still exists/ever existed from the backstory devised for Lego's abandoned 'Europa' theme. It's always felt to me from the prototypes that it was set contemporaneously with the Pirates theme, so I wonder if there was any intended 'crossover' - in Lego's minds if not in the plastic bricks themselves

[TalonCard]

It's a good question--the best image we have of Europa uses bluecoats extensively, but it's hard to tell whether they were using them out of convenience or if there was to be an intentional connection. According to the book The Secret Life of LEGO Bricks, the earliest version of the theme, as an untitled Napoleonic Wars theme, was proposed alongside the Pirate theme in the early 80s. It was definitely the case that many elements used in Pirates were developed with an eye towards potentially being used in Europa as well, like the cannon, flintlocks, muskets, and ship hulls. Pirates was ultimately chosen to be first, and I suspect that if Europa had ever been released afterward, it probably would have stayed away from the initial concept of featuring historically correct armies opposing one another. Turns out I mis-remembered the Europa image; if anything it's bluecoats-vs-whitecoats, not Redcoats, but even that is unclear. We also see highwaymen in that image, and according to BrickJournal via Brickipedia, other possibilities for opposing forces would have included trolls, witches, and dracula--maybe these ideas were folded in to Castle as Fright Knights instead.

[Jack Sassy]

2 hours ago, TalonCard said:

If I might blend some real world history with the established lore of the theme:

Impressive research! That is why ye are the historian around these waters.  

2 hours ago, TalonCard said:

the Redcoats and Bluecoats belong to the same faction.

Ah, I did not know this piece of information, thank ye for bringing it up! 

2 hours ago, TalonCard said:

It's also possible that the Imperials in the pirates theme represent some kind of combined British/French alliance

If we were to scrape the bottom of the rum barrel, one could bring up the historical fact that parts of France and Britain were under one rule at a certain point in history. If anyone feels like creating a new theory, it could be that LEGO Pirates suggests such an Imperial power, thus the influence of both nations in faction's appearance.

[TheCosmicTravelers]

5 hours ago, TalonCard said:

Now, one of the other points about LEGO Pirate lore that is consistent across decades of storytelling but is often overlooked, ignored, or rejected by fans is that the Redcoats and Bluecoats belong to the same faction.

One must also remember that the Royal Navy uniform was blue (once this was standardized in the 18th century) and the Royal Marines and British Army uniforms were red, thus allowing both to belong to the same faction. This is even visible in some sets of the 2009 wave, with both 6242 and 10210 including Redcoats (presumably Royal Marines) led by a Bluecoat leader. Also consider the film Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl with the Redcoats Murtogg and Mullroy under the Bluecoat Commodore Norrington.

Edited October 13, 2024 by TheCosmicTravelers

[SBCMayor]

@TalonCard that was a great read! Thank you, I really feel like I read a real piece of history and I suppose I did. I love being able to tie the them to real world events and powers and certainly it's fair to say Lego could not have created such a theme without historical inspiration to begin with. Most of the reading I've done on the subject has been from the perspective of the pirates, groups who as you've noted, sometimes found themselves out of work when uneasy peace treaties ended their commissions as privateers. There's also an even darker aspect to it, that being life was so unjust on the merchant and Royal Navy ships of the era that joining a pirate crew was actually an upgrade. Better pay, better treatment, better promise of fortune, ill-gotten or not. Captains and officers abused their crews. A great pirate figure to read about is Henry Avery, who became a bit of a folk hero, sort of a sea-faring Robin Hood in the very early 1700s. While there's probably a lot of embellished myth and lore surrounding him, and the man likely died penniless (he was built up to be literally be a "pirate king" on the Island of Madagascar) his story sheds a lot of light on the motive behind so many turning to piracy. 

And I will fully acknowledge, I likely would have never bothered to learn about him or other pirates had it not been for the Lego Pirate Theme sparking my interests! 

[CvS]

On 10/13/2024 at 6:02 AM, TalonCard said:

A great analysis, @Jack Sassy! If I might blend some real world history with the established lore of the theme:

Edited November 7, 2024 by Clone OPatra
Please don't quote entire long posts

[Dreamweb]

On 10/12/2024 at 9:02 PM, TalonCard said:

Because sets were in rotation for much, much longer in the 90s, there was considerable overlap in the availability of bluecoat and Imperial Guard sets, so they were shown in catalogs as belonging to the same faction

Just an interesting side note... I remember those very pages from the Polish catalogue and there was an obvious error in the translation. The original sentence is: "Admiral Woodhouse thinks that Broadside is a fool the way he deals with the pirates."

The Polish version was something along the lines of: "Admiral Woodhouse thinks that Broadside made a fool of the pirates." Which would actually mean that Woodhouse is praising Broadside, not the other way around.

[Mister Phes]

16 hours ago, Dreamweb said:

The original sentence is: "Admiral Woodhouse thinks that Broadside is a fool the way he deals with the pirates."

That line has stuck in my head since 1992... but never did I interpret it as an official confirmation that the Soldiers and Imperial Guards belong to the same faction.

However, in past forum discussions, I've argued that they are indeed the same faction; blue coats being the naval branch, while red coats are the military branch.