Lawsuit TLG against Dutch Retailer Wibra

[JopieK]

TLG sues Wibra over LEGO-like flower sets:

It appears that Wibra, a Dutch discount retailer, is being sued by The LEGO Group (TLG) for selling plastic flower building sets that allegedly resemble LEGO products too closely. Videos on TikTok showed that these sets were being sold across Wibra stores.

It's also possible that individual Wibra stores were marketing other non-LEGO sets as LEGO, which could have further contributed to TLG's decision to take legal action. There's an example of this on their Facebook page here ("Nieuw binnen! Lego dieren €2,49" -> "Just in! Lego animals").

According to reports, TLG is demanding a penalty of €500 per box found in stores, wants to know the identity of the supplier, and is requesting the destruction of the entire stock. Wibra claims to be "shocked" by the lawsuit and states they were unaware of any copyright infringement. They have removed the sets from their stores and expressed a desire to donate the products to a hospital rather than destroy them. A court ruling is expected on November 13th.

Wibra's commercial director, Wim Smit, claims they assumed the products didn't infringe on any existing rights. However, given the obvious similarities to LEGO products, his claim of ignorance seems rather dubious.

 

[Mylenium]

2 hours ago, JopieK said:

However, given the obvious similarities to LEGO products, his claim of ignorance seems rather dubious.

I don't think so. It's not his responsibility to know all of the hundreds or thousands of products. That is up to some sub-sub-sub wholesale manager or whoever. Likewise, it's not their responsibility to check the package design of a competitor. This is once more a case where LEGO are simply pulling the "nuclear" option based on questionable claims. One can only hope that the court shows some measure of common sense...

Mylenium

[MAB]

2 hours ago, JopieK said:

 

It's also possible that individual Wibra stores were marketing other non-LEGO sets as LEGO, which could have further contributed to TLG's decision to take legal action. There's an example of this on their Facebook page here ("Nieuw binnen! Lego dieren €2,49" -> "Just in! Lego animals").

 

If they were using the name LEGO to market clone brand sets in their advertising or instore, then they deserve everything they get. 

[Murdoch17]

1 hour ago, MAB said:

If they were using the name LEGO to market clone brand sets in their advertising or instore, then they deserve everything they get. 

Agreed.

[DonQuixote]

That's the real face of the Lego company. To make sure they have the monopoly with building bricks. 

[Agent Kallus]

9 hours ago, DonQuixote said:

That's the real face of the Lego company. To make sure they have the monopoly with building bricks. 

On the one hand I get this sentiment, on the other I can see the bricks in the fake Lego set in question have stolen the exact design of many of Lego's elements. It's not like Mega Blocks that at least tries to do more than puerile imitation.

[Peppermint_M]

The only legal stance they can take is the shop advertising the sets as LEGO to their customers, imitation of specific trademarked branding (The LEGO logo and other graphical designs for themes like typeface and logos), or the sets have exact copies of Minifigures. "Compatible Brand", "Fits Major Brands!" and "Works with Popular Building Blocks"  is all ok and TLG can stamp their feet and shout as much as they like, but won't win. 

The functional nature of the elements means they can't hold any exclusive ownership (Like pencils, or paperclips). Exceptions would be in light and sound bricks as they have technical aspects that can be protected (much like the Minifigure). They may have won in the 80s against Tyco (all the while airing their own dirty laundry) but in the 90s Mega argued the point and won. Recently Zuru and Cobi have had rulings in their favour.

A lot of shops have a cheaper option these days as LEGO is very expensive and beyond some people's means. Block Tech, Building Block, Block by Block... The list goes on. As long as they do not imitate the branding or minifigures - nor does the shop put the sets with LEGO banners and branding elements, it is all above board. Then you have the small fry market sellers who might have bunged a pile of Aliexpress bootlegs onto a table without making the specific claim that it is LEGO (but don't correct customers who can't know any better) but they wouldn't gain any good press from going after these individuals. More often than not, dodgy market sellers get caught out by local level Trading Standards (or their supplier does) as there are compliance issues in safety and material certification. 

Hmm, I can waffle on. 

 

[MAB]

1 hour ago, Peppermint_M said:

A lot of shops have a cheaper option these days as LEGO is very expensive and beyond some people's means. Block Tech, Building Block, Block by Block... The list goes on. As long as they do not imitate the branding or minifigures - nor does the shop put the sets with LEGO banners and branding elements, it is all above board. Then you have the small fry market sellers who might have bunged a pile of Aliexpress bootlegs onto a table without making the specific claim that it is LEGO (but don't correct customers who can't know any better) but they wouldn't gain any good press from going after these individuals. More often than not, dodgy market sellers get caught out by local level Trading Standards (or their supplier does) as there are compliance issues in safety and material certification.
 

I don't mind seeing those other cheaper options for sale, so long as they are not on shelves where there is LEGO branding. Often the shelf edges have the LEGO name running their length or other LEGO advertising, then other similar branded products are on the shelves. That is misleading but possibly unintentional (but still wrong). Then at the other extreme there are the market sellers that use a LEGO baseplate to display figures or have a few LEGO minifigures so put up a LEGO sign, yet sell loads of cheap knock off figures then claim that the sign is allowed as they sell a few cheap City figures even though most of what they are selling are knock off Star Wars figures, Super Heroes, etc. I'm pretty sure they know exactly what they are doing ...

Edited October 31, 2024 by MAB

[Murdoch17]

13 hours ago, DonQuixote said:

That's the real face of the Lego company. To make sure they have the monopoly with building bricks. 

Every company wants a monopoly, as it's part of being a business - they're making stuff (toys, cars, refrigerators, whatever) in a way to make the most money possible, as that's what they're in business for. Saying nobody does that but LEGO would be borderline delusional.

I've noticed you disparaging TLG across multiple threads, while praising the competition. You would be singing a different tune about the competition LEGO is facing if your MOC's were stolen or reverse engineered by these other brands. I've had that happen, and these companies are scum of the Earth. LEGO doesn't do that, and before you say "But ideas steals them all the time!", no they really don't, no matter what people say. Ex: When the Marvel X-Mansion came out, some people were saying it was a rip off of the ideas project that was rejected in 2014. No, it wasn't. The concept is the same, but the execution is totally different. They look absolutely nothing alike beyond being mansions for the X-Men to live in.

 

..sorry for the sort-of off topic rant.

Edited October 31, 2024 by Murdoch17

[Yperio_Bricks]

10 minutes ago, Murdoch17 said:

LEGO doesn't do that

Please use the translator of your choice: https://www.stonewars.de/news/lego-kopiert-death-stranding-moc/

[Murdoch17]

4 minutes ago, Yperio_Bricks said:

Please use the translator of your choice: https://www.stonewars.de/news/lego-kopiert-death-stranding-moc/

I don't think LEGO had put out a set from this video game based on this MOC for public consumption. There is a difference between the competition and LEGO.

Edited October 31, 2024 by Murdoch17

[DonQuixote]

2 hours ago, Murdoch17 said:

Every company wants a monopoly, as it's part of being a business - they're making stuff (toys, cars, refrigerators, whatever) in a way to make the most money possible, as that's what they're in business for. Saying nobody does that but LEGO would be borderline delusional.

I've noticed you disparaging TLG across multiple threads, while praising the competition. You would be singing a different tune about the competition LEGO is facing if your MOC's were stolen or reverse engineered by these other brands. I've had that happen, and these companies are scum of the Earth. LEGO doesn't do that, and before you say "But ideas steals them all the time!", no they really don't, no matter what people say. Ex: When the Marvel X-Mansion came out, some people were saying it was a rip off of the ideas project that was rejected in 2014. No, it wasn't. The concept is the same, but the execution is totally different. They look absolutely nothing alike beyond being mansions for the X-Men to live in.

 

..sorry for the sort-of off topic rant.

Well I am not praising all other companies. Some brands do steal mocs. Yes that's terrible.

But that doesn't mean every company does that. Bluebrixx, Cobi, Megablocks construx, Phantasy, Funwhole are companies that do their own designs.

And I am critical for them too. For example : the redcoats minifigs from Bluebrixx have the same bad white printing as the Lego bluecoats.

Minifigs of Funwhole look terrible. Lego minifigs are still the best. But sometimes the quality of those Lego minifigs are so bad that I have to say : the Lego minifigs are the least worst of them all.

And I am not ranting about Lego only but about gaming too. There are almost no exclusive games for PS5 and yet Sony releases the PS5 Pro for €800?! And it doesn't even have a disc drive?!

And yes I admit I am more ranting about Lego and Sony. That's because they are both supposed to be premium products.

If your product is expensive,  I am going to be very critical about it. If a cheap product is not good like the Bluebrixx redcoats.... Well then I can say : well at least it's cheap.

Lego and Sony are raising their prices but are they raising their quality? Not sure about that. 

Edited October 31, 2024 by DonQuixote

[Mylenium]

2 hours ago, Murdoch17 said:

I've noticed you disparaging TLG across multiple threads

And you appear very defensive of it. I won't use certain words here, but your stance doesn't make it any better, either, no offense.

2 hours ago, Murdoch17 said:

You would be singing a different tune about the competition LEGO is facing if your MOC's were stolen or reverse engineered by these other brands.

Really depends on how you think about that stuff. That's an eternally ongoing debate in creative circles and at the end of the day there's no satisfactory resolution to the dilemma. I work in the graphics business, but I've never cramped my megablocks over someone copying/ imitating my work and to a degree I don't even mind them making money of it. It's just a matter to what extent. Sure, getting ripped off without even a mention sucks, but I'm not losing sleep over it. There's more to life than worrying about this and it's a matter of whether you are in it for the joy and fulfillment you get out of creating stuff or if you are just doing it for the money. At least in the creative industries there's also a self-cleaning effect and those hacks that just rely on copying work will only get so far. I would apply the same logic to brick-built projects. Why would I care about some weird company at the other end of the world using my designs when I have no way of getting to them or it is too much of a distraction to even hunt them down? I got better things to do.

Mylenium

[Alexandrina]

I'm not wading into the mire of "are Lego right here" but surely the competitor product in the image isn't the actual box they were selling it in? How could any designer look at a box with so much white space and yet the text unreadable on top of the image, and think "yeah this looks ok"

I will say that there's got to be more to this than just the Dutch company using Lego-compatible blocks. It's not like Lego have spent the last twenty-five years in a permanent state of legal wrangles with every other manufacturer, and right now they're not going after Megablocks or Cobi or whatever else is out there. (I know they have in the past, but that doesn't appear to be their present philosophy)

[Yperio_Bricks]

51 minutes ago, Alexandrina said:

I'm not wading into the mire of "are Lego right here" but surely the competitor product in the image isn't the actual box they were selling it in? How could any designer look at a box with so much white space and yet the text unreadable on top of the image, and think "yeah this looks ok"

But the white box much better! Much more stylish and classy and not like a children's toy like the Lego box. Also the build looks much better and more natural. Not like some unnatural straight stick. The text is readable and looks good

[Mylenium]

1 hour ago, Alexandrina said:

How could any designer look at a box with so much white space and yet the text unreadable on top of the image, and think "yeah this looks ok"

Yeah, it looks okay for a 5 dollar job. Not sure what you expect. Not every design job is luxury brand level where you spend weeks with meetings and design iterations. Many times it's really just a job done by a freelancer who needs to fire out twenty designs in a week to make a living and who works with clients that don't appreciate the finer points. They just want functional packaging that communicates the selling points at as low as possible cost. And let's be real: LEGO's box designs won't win awards, either. Given how much money the company throws around I'm always baffled by how bad some of that is.

Mylenium

[Alexandrina]

21 minutes ago, Yperio_Bricks said:

But the white box much better! Much more stylish and classy and not like a children's toy like the Lego box. Also the build looks much better and more natural. Not like some unnatural straight stick. The text is readable and looks good

A white box can be better, sure. I just think they've done a sloppy job. About a fifth of the box is just plain white space, and yet they've got dark text overlapping a photo of a dark model - it's a design own goal

3 minutes ago, Mylenium said:

Yeah, it looks okay for a 5 dollar job. Not sure what you expect

I'd expect the bare minimum, really. I'm not asking them to produce a piece of legacy-defining modern art for every box, but they've made avoidable errors on basic concepts which take literally two seconds in your image software of choice to fix.

[Mylenium]

2 hours ago, Alexandrina said:

About a fifth of the box is just plain white space

White space is the oxygen of any print design or for that matter even classic paintings. Nothing wrong with that per se. Yes, they could have used a different style and framing, but overall it's okay.

2 hours ago, Alexandrina said:

But they've made avoidable errors on basic concepts which take literally two seconds in your image software of choice to fix.

But then again they clearly have used more than one software and there may have been other restrictions and preset requirements. Somehow your comments feel like you don't understand much of the technical side of print production and package design and you also don't seem to acknowledge that at the end of the day the client is always right. The design actually even tells the story in a way - standardized package size and placement of elements to keep things cheap and the dark brown text just didn't work in this case, but would be just fine on a red rose or whatever other flowery stuff they may have. I'm certain the designer was fully aware of this. It was just a restriction that the client imposed.

Mylenium 

[Alexandrina]

1 hour ago, Mylenium said:

White space is the oxygen of any print design or for that matter even classic paintings. Nothing wrong with that per se.

There's nothing wrong with white space, but having an excess of white space and also having elements overlapping is a poor choice.

1 hour ago, Mylenium said:

But then again they clearly have used more than one software and there may have been other restrictions and preset requirements. Somehow your comments feel like you don't understand much of the technical side of print production and package design and you also don't seem to acknowledge that at the end of the day the client is always right. The design actually even tells the story in a way - standardized package size and placement of elements to keep things cheap and the dark brown text just didn't work in this case, but would be just fine on a red rose or whatever other flowery stuff they may have. I'm certain the designer was fully aware of this. It was just a restriction that the client imposed.

No, that is all immaterial. It doesn't matter whether it's a designer being sloppy by choice or a client's inane restrictions - the outcome is a cheap, flawed box design.

This is all off-topic anyway, really, and entirely beside the point.

[Black Falcon]

8 hours ago, Yperio_Bricks said:

Please use the translator of your choice: https://www.stonewars.de/news/lego-kopiert-death-stranding-moc/

Oh, come on. You can´t really compare a situation where a Designer rebuilt a Moc of someone else, that was later sent to someone, with stealing someones Moc to sell it. There were some things going wrong there for sure, but you can´t really say they intentional stole the Moc. They also took their time to clear things up both per mail and in a teams call - try that with an company selling your design and you won´t even get an answer most of the time.

6 hours ago, DonQuixote said:

Well I am not praising all other companies. Some brands do steal mocs. Yes that's terrible.

But that doesn't mean every company does that. Bluebrixx, Cobi, Megablocks construx, Phantasy, Funwhole are companies that do their own designs.

Bluebrixx might be doing their own designs too (now), but they have been selling stolen MOCs too. And they still don´t care about other´s companys IPs.

5 hours ago, Yperio_Bricks said:

But the white box much better! Much more stylish and classy and not like a children's toy like the Lego box. Also the build looks much better and more natural. Not like some unnatural straight stick. The text is readable and looks good

I would say that pretty much depends on your own taste. But kinda funny when I think about that many don´t like the black boxes Lego uses for their Adult Sets, which is basicallly a similar design to the white box.

[Yperio_Bricks]

8 minutes ago, Black Falcon said:

Oh, come on. You can´t really compare a situation where a Designer rebuilt a Moc of someone else, that was later sent to someone, with stealing someones Moc to sell it. There were some things going wrong there for sure, but you can´t really say they intentional stole the Moc. They also took their time to clear things up both per mail and in a teams call - try that with an company selling your design and you won´t even get an answer most of the time.

The did not send it to 'someone". They sent it to a very famous person who posted the moc on his socials. The advertising effect should not be underestimated. And saying 'sorry' later is easy when you should no have copied the moc in the first place.

10 minutes ago, Black Falcon said:

I would say that pretty much depends on your own taste. But kinda funny when I think about that many don´t like the black boxes Lego uses for their Adult Sets, which is basicallly a similar design to the white box.

Maybe Lego aims for the same classy and stylish appearence, but their red logo on the front of the boxes alone destroys any such effect. Colors shine on a white canvas! And while it is possible to make colors shine on a black background, Lego does not get it right with the added mirror effect and the 'ambient light' behind the build. Of course that is just my perception. I throw them boxes into the recycling container anyway

[Black Falcon]

1 minute ago, Yperio_Bricks said:

The did not send it to 'someone". They sent it to a very famous person who posted the moc on his socials. The advertising effect should not be underestimated. And saying 'sorry' later is easy when you should no have copied the moc in the first place.

Again, some things went wrong there, but it isn´t like Lego told their Designer, go and copy this. 

[Toastie]

Lawsuits, the final frontier ...

Well, I hope, truly hope, that The LEGO Company, or The LEGO Group, or LEGO, The One and Only, actually rolls out better sets than the competition does. That is all there is. Don't tell me about ethics and costs. Just get - dammit - better. And simply cut the cost saving crap arguments. Should these apply, well then, goodbye. TLG is not a religion, it is a for-profit, totally for profit oriented company. As any company is, in a for profit-oriented world. What a surprise.

In this world, lawsuits >sometimes< work. Generally, simply being better, even if otherwise "unlawful" copying is happening, assures success. Just be better. And don't wine so much.

Rock on,
Thorsten

[DonQuixote]

17 hours ago, Black Falcon said:

 

Bluebrixx might be doing their own designs too (now), but they have been selling stolen MOCs too. And they still don´t care about other´s companys IPs.

Well you're right about that. But I am still gonna buy Bluebrixx sets, just because they offer themes that Lego barely touch. Western,imperial ships, castle. And I don't like monopolies. I want more competition. 

I still buy Lego too. Bought the modular museum 20% discount at Dreamland. Still have to build it. And I am looking forward to the next modular but I will wait for a discount again if I am going to buy it.