Advanced Lego robotics

[pekka111]

Hi, i have been building with Legos as child in 80's and 90's, mostly technics. Favourite set was of course this https://brickset.com/sets/8860-1/Car-Chassis. Now I'm developing LLM (AI) server applications (customized chat bots etc) for a living and got an itch to start playing with robotics for a hobby.

It seems that Spike Prime is the only available Lego kit nowadays? It supports python so I guess you can program any logic that you like with it? And you can add OpenMV for basic computer vision. Ideally I would like to have Raspberry PI or more powerful edge computing system for advanced vision and control. Even a wireless connection to Linux server would be nice. Where could i find more info on how to get started? Does anyone here have builds to show?

[LegoTT]

You can buy cheap used electronic stuff on bricklink.com

 

The oldest it is, the more available ressource on how to make it work with a PC or how to tweak it.

 

There is a ton of builds like this one :

 

 

Also, the oldest it is, the more reliable lego compatible stuff like actuators, captors or stuff there is, like this one :

 

https://www.mindsensors.com/home/34-ev3-sensor-multiplexer-for-ev3-or-nxt.html

 

Hope this help.

Edited November 30, 2024 by LegoTT

[Munchkin255]

I recommend that you check out Antons Mindstorms. He is doing a lot with Spike and 3rd party parts.

https://www.antonsmindstorms.com/

[Berthil]

Just buy PowerdUp motors and sensors and a large Spike/Mindstorms or Technic hub, they all work together. Pybricks.com is the way to go with programming. I just build a 6-axis robot arm with it. Akiyuki just proved Pybricks is the way to go after doing a lot with EV3 Mindstorms.

 

Edited November 30, 2024 by Berthil

[Munchkin255]

You could also use an actual Pi instead of a LEGO hub.

The Raspberry Pi Build HAT allows you to connect four PowerdUp / Technic / Spike motors to a Raspberry Pi.

https://www.raspberrypi.com/products/build-hat/

[bruh]

Dunno if it uses python, but buwizz is a good option

[pekka111]

Thank you for all the tips. So for the controller there are 4 options: Spike, EV3, Buwizz and Pi+hat and each could be bought separately without a Lego kit. And then all motors, actuators and sensors (Lego and 3rd party) can be bought separately also, which I didn't think of. Out of controllers, Spike seems to be the smallest, but is it possible to utilize external services (vision, control) with that? With PI+hat almost anything would be possible, but it's a bit bigger and needs an additional battery. Then there is the question: are all the systems compatible, or do you have to select one based on what kind of components you want to add?

Edited December 1, 2024 by pekka111

[Lok24]

1 hour ago, pekka111 said:

And then all motors, actuators and sensors (Lego and 3rd party) can be bought separately also, which I didn't think of.

There isn't much 3thrd party.
You should know that all the  motors report the angle and the current speed back.

And therefore it's not that simple to connect them to a Pi+

A very simple and cheap solution is to use the normal Powered Up Hubs (4 Ports, about 15$).
For controlling you can use i.E. pybricks or some ESP like the M5 Tack Atom.

Here is my example:

https://www.doctor-brick.de/threads/powered-up-mal-ganz-ohne-smartphone.13797/

An here is a library for the LWP and C++

https://github.com/corneliusmunz/legoino/blob/master/README.md

https://github.com/corneliusmunz/legoino

I would to today not recommend a Pi, nor Buwizz, nor EV3, nor NXT.

You net an ESP, a Hub, a motor, which makes around 50$

No soldering at all, only programming.

Or without ESP:

Pybricks Documentation — pybricks v3.5.0 documentation

Here ist the LWP

https://lego.github.io/lego-ble-wireless-protocol-docs/

 

 

 

[pekka111]

6 hours ago, Lok24 said:

There isn't much 3thrd party.
You should know that all the  motors report the angle and the current speed back.

And therefore it's not that simple to connect them to a Pi+

A very simple and cheap solution is to use the normal Powered Up Hubs (4 Ports, about 15$).
For controlling you can use i.E. pybricks or some ESP like the M5 Tack Atom.

Here is my example:

https://www.doctor-brick.de/threads/powered-up-mal-ganz-ohne-smartphone.13797/

An here is a library for the LWP and C++

https://github.com/corneliusmunz/legoino/blob/master/README.md

https://github.com/corneliusmunz/legoino

I would to today not recommend a Pi, nor Buwizz, nor EV3, nor NXT.

You net an ESP, a Hub, a motor, which makes around 50$

No soldering at all, only programming.

Or without ESP:

Pybricks Documentation — pybricks v3.5.0 documentation

Here ist the LWP

https://lego.github.io/lego-ble-wireless-protocol-docs/

 

 

 

 

 

>> I would to today not recommend a Pi, nor Buwizz, nor EV3, nor NXT.

So Spike would be okay? Powered Up Hub does seem a bit hassle with the batteries. M5Stack is a new world for me so have to study those and your examples too.

[Lok24]

12 minutes ago, pekka111 said:

So Spike would be okay?

It's very expensive, no parts sold be LEGO, only sets.
Is there a reason to buy SPIKE?

The simple hubs  use the same connectors, same motors and sensors.
What should the arduino or ESP do, what the hub/Spike can't do?

Perhaps you give an example of a robot or machine?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[pekka111]

1 hour ago, Lok24 said:

It's very expensive, no parts sold be LEGO, only sets.
Is there a reason to buy SPIKE?

The simple hubs  use the same connectors, same motors and sensors.
What should the arduino or ESP do, what the hub/Spike can't do?

Perhaps you give an example of a robot or machine?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah I don't know about Spike, just you didn't mention it so guessed. I would rather avoid bying an expensive Lego kit. Arduino or ESP seems a good way to go if they are compatible and come without Lego price tag :)

[Lok24]

I have no SPIKE set

But: the "normal" Powered Up hubs can be fully controlled by BLE.
So there ist nothing that must be "compatible" except BLE.

The idea is not (!)  to used some motors directly  with them, but control the motors via BLE and receive sensor  values via BLE with the microcontroller.

The advantage of the M5 STACK ATOM: housing, two switches and a 5x5 led matrix. About 15$ .

SPIKE is different: you write a program and load it into the SPIKE hub and start it on the hub.
But : you can do that as well with Pybricks with any webbrowser. But then using python.

So : any self-sufficient solution: pybricks + python + hub + motor = 30$
With external program (ESP) : ESP + C++ + hub + motor = 45$

[pekka111]

5 minutes ago, Lok24 said:

I have no SPIKE set

But: the "normal" Powered Up hubs can be fully controlled by BLE.
So there ist nothing that must be "compatible" except BLE.

The idea is not (!)  to used some motors directly  with them, but control the motors via BLE and receive sensor  values via BLE with the microcontroller.

The advantage of the M5 STACK ATOM: housing, two switches and a 5x5 led matrix. About 15$ .

SPIKE is different: you write a program and load it into the SPIKE hub and start it on the hub.
But : you can do that as well with Pybricks with any webbrowser. But then using python.

So : any self-sufficient solution: pybricks + python + hub + motor = 30$
With external program (ESP) : ESP + C++ + hub + motor = 45$

Learning a lot here, thanks! M5 STACK ATOM looks really nice - small and light package.

[Lok24]

32 minutes ago, pekka111 said:

small and light package.

Mine ist not part of the model, ist just lying on shelf, since a long Time , just a USB-C power Supply needed.
If I start a model, the Hub there connects automatically, very simple for me.

 

 

[schraubedrin]

On 11/30/2024 at 8:30 PM, pekka111 said:

got an itch to start playing with robotics for a hobby.

Maybe that's pedantic, but do you want to play with robotics or with lego robots?
Just to prevent frustration: depending on how custom of a robot you want to build, making it out of lego might be more difficult than other methods.

If you're sure, you want to build robots with lego ... Welcome to the dark side

There are a lot of different ways to go about it, but from your first descriptions it seems like more complex operations.
There i agree with @Lok24, the way to go is to use the lego controlers (Control Plus / Technic Hub, Powered Up, Spike, Mindstorms, ...) only as fancy motor drivers / sensors and do the actual calculation and program flow on your mentioned edge computing device.

This has been the concept for decades, one of the more prominent ones is Cubestormer:

There are so many programming languages to choose from, i highly recommend the mindstorms wikipedia entry:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lego_Mindstorms#Programming_languages

Personally, i recently discovered how easy pybricks is to use, can highly recommend

 

My suggestion for you, as a first step:
Buy a Control+ or Powered Up set, where you're comfortable with the price (used might be a good idea) and just try to program it with a firmware you're comfortable with (again, i had a great experience with pybricks)

[pekka111]

10 hours ago, schraubedrin said:

Maybe that's pedantic, but do you want to play with robotics or with lego robots?
Just to prevent frustration: depending on how custom of a robot you want to build, making it out of lego might be more difficult than other methods.

If you're sure, you want to build robots with lego ... Welcome to the dark side

There are a lot of different ways to go about it, but from your first descriptions it seems like more complex operations.
There i agree with @Lok24, the way to go is to use the lego controlers (Control Plus / Technic Hub, Powered Up, Spike, Mindstorms, ...) only as fancy motor drivers / sensors and do the actual calculation and program flow on your mentioned edge computing device.

This has been the concept for decades, one of the more prominent ones is Cubestormer:

There are so many programming languages to choose from, i highly recommend the mindstorms wikipedia entry:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lego_Mindstorms#Programming_languages

Personally, i recently discovered how easy pybricks is to use, can highly recommend

 

My suggestion for you, as a first step:
Buy a Control+ or Powered Up set, where you're comfortable with the price (used might be a good idea) and just try to program it with a firmware you're comfortable with (again, i had a great experience with pybricks)

Thanks for the links! Legos came to mind as the first options becaouse they are familiar. I'm interested in all options, so are there other methods that don't require manufacturing or 3D printing parts?

Edited December 2, 2024 by pekka111

[Lok24]

3 hours ago, pekka111 said:

(Control Plus / Technic Hub, Powered Up, Spike, Mindstorms, ...)

To be pedantic :

"Control+" is just a LEGO App to be used with many motorized technic sets, no hardware at all, never

"Powered Up" is the name of the of "electric product" family  (same plug, same LWP), including hubs, motors, sensors, among all themes like System , technic, Mario, Duplo

"Technic hub" is just one hub among others within the "powered up" product line

"Mindstorms" was for decades the product name for "programming and robotics", with many different hardware. But all history.

"SPIKE" is the actual "education" product, similar to PU, but not the same.

 

Edited December 2, 2024 by Lok24

[Lok24]

3 hours ago, pekka111 said:

I'm interested in all options,

If you could show on or two pictures or videos from, what would be an interesting idea it would be much easier to support.

Here are three examples for automated MOcs, but no "robots":

https://zusammengebaut.com/lego-mindstorms-moc-game-of-thrones-lebt-auf-the-red-keep-23264/

So show us some examples, please.

[pekka111]

7 hours ago, Lok24 said:

If you could show on or two pictures or videos from, what would be an interesting idea it would be much easier to support.

Here are three examples for automated MOcs, but no "robots":

https://zusammengebaut.com/lego-mindstorms-moc-game-of-thrones-lebt-auf-the-red-keep-23264/

So show us some examples, please.

I don't know exactly, but some kind of (indoor) moving things that act and react with environment. There are some nice ready made AI models (for example https://huggingface.co/openvla/openvla-7b) to try out. So no end goal but have fun experimenting with what is possible and with fairly low budget.

[Lok24]

14 hours ago, pekka111 said:

I don't know exactly, but some kind of (indoor) moving things that act and react with environment.

I see, something like a robot vacuum cleaner

Therefore I think you need much more than LEGO (as you assumed already)
I think you need

- the mechanical base to move and act
- some microcontroller on it to control the base and mange different sensors (i.e a camera)
- some fixed remote instance to show the actions and improve them, this should be connected to the robot via BT od WiFi

Here is a shop that offers all you need:
https://eckstein-shop.de/?lang=eng

Edited December 3, 2024 by Lok24

[pekka111]

7 hours ago, Lok24 said:

I see, something like a robot vacuum cleaner

Therefore I think you need much more than LEGO (as you assumed already)
I think you need

- the mechanical base to move and act
- some microcontroller on it to control the base and mange different sensors (i.e a camera)
- some fixed remote instance to show the actions and improve them, this should be connected to the robot via BT od WiFi

Here is a shop that offers all you need:
https://eckstein-shop.de/?lang=eng

Thanks, lots of interesting stuff there but mostly wheel based though. Maybe I can be clever and use a control/camera system that works with both ;) Then start with Legos and move to other stuff if they won't work anymore.

Edited December 3, 2024 by pekka111

[pekka111]

Is Technic Move Hub programmable as powered up system, or is it limited to control+ app? 42176 - Porsche GT4 e-Performance would be on offer here now. These are a bit confusing have to say...

Edited December 3, 2024 by pekka111

[Lok24]

53 minutes ago, pekka111 said:

Is Technic Move Hub programmable as powered up system,

Yes, like the City Hub or the Move Hub and the SPIKE Hubs (or the last Mindstorms)

It is called "Technic Hub", "Move Hub" is different

53 minutes ago, pekka111 said:

or is it limited to control+ app?

No, it is not.

You can use it with the powered Up-App (there you can create programs with icons and also a GUI), always needs a smart devive to contol) or you can use pybricks (load program resident into hub).
Maybe more ......

53 minutes ago, pekka111 said:

42176 - Porsche GT4 e-Performance is on offer here now.

There is no Technic Hub inside, but some kind of "Car Hub" with steering and light.

Here they are:

"Car Hub" with 3 integrated Motors

Technic hub with 4 ports (sensors or motors)

Move Hub with two integrated motors  and 2 Ports (sensors or motors)

My answers concern to the Technic Hub.

Edited December 3, 2024 by Lok24

[pekka111]

2 hours ago, Lok24 said:

Yes, like the City Hub or the Move Hub and the SPIKE Hubs (or the last Mindstorms)

It is called "Technic Hub", "Move Hub" is different

No, it is not.

You can use it with the powered Up-App (there you can create programs with icons and also a GUI), always needs a smart devive to contol) or you can use pybricks (load program resident into hub).
Maybe more ......

There is no Technic Hub inside, but some kind of "Car Hub" with steering and light.

Here they are:

"Car Hub" with 3 integrated Motors

Technic hub with 4 ports (sensors or motors)

Move Hub with two integrated motors  and 2 Ports (sensors or motors)

My answers concern to the Technic Hub.

Could there be different versions of 42176? I was reading it here: https://ramblingbrick.com/2024/07/28/42176-porsche/

Edited December 3, 2024 by pekka111

[Lok24]

13 hours ago, pekka111 said:

Could there be different versions of 42176?

Nope.Naming is quite difficult.

Here are the other hubs:

SetNo   Shop-Name  internal name                                     Element ID Design ID

88006    Move Hub     LPF2 HUB MOTOR 6X16X4 NO. 1   6283413    26910
88009    Hub               HUB NO. 4                                         6262033    28738
88012    technic Hub   HUB, NO. 2                                        6142536    22127

As you see: 88012 is a set(!) with exactly one(!) piece, the "technic hub".
But shop names are different in different countries.

I didn't find the new one from 42176 anywhere except in Bricklink, see my links in the previous post.
Means: perhaps it has no "official" name yet.

Edited December 4, 2024 by Lok24