Advanced Lego robotics

[idlemarvel]

I don't think the new Technic Move Hub that comes with 42176 works with the Powered Up app, or at least I couldn't get it to.

[pekka111]

17 minutes ago, idlemarvel said:

I don't think the new Technic Move Hub that comes with 42176 works with the Powered Up app, or at least I couldn't get it to.

Okay you have the same result as ramblingbrick.com.

[Lok24]

1 hour ago, pekka111 said:

Okay you have the same result as ramblingbrick.com.

Sure, that is why I mentioned the "Technic Hub" 88012, for the new one the Powered up App (June 2023) is not (yet?) working, I think.

Name seems to be "Technic Move", number 88019 ist definitely wrong, cause this is a power supply.
Find more infos and program here:

https://github.com/DanieleBenedettelli/TechnicMoveHub

Perhaps you ask here in the thread "pybricks Q & A"?

Edited December 4, 2024 by Lok24

[Mr Jos]

I got a bit of advanced machinery on my channel.

https://www.youtube.com/@profjos/videos

Using mostly EV3 and pairing it with Anton Mindstorms material to make a GUI (Graphical User Interface)

All programmed with MicroPython. 

[pekka111]

20 hours ago, Mr Jos said:

I got a bit of advanced machinery on my channel.

https://www.youtube.com/@profjos/videos

Using mostly EV3 and pairing it with Anton Mindstorms material to make a GUI (Graphical User Interface)

All programmed with MicroPython. 

Nice stuff!

[pekka111]

So I have studied the parts a bit and there seems to be at least 5 (!) different ecosystems:

Mindstorms EV3 / NXT

Wedo 2.0

Powered Up

Control+

Spike

Is it really so that these are not compatible? Lego support says for example that Spike hub does not connect to powered up devices. So if you would like to buy sets for Spike system, you are out of luck. This is grazy...

Edited December 11, 2024 by pekka111

[2GodBDGlory]

27 minutes ago, pekka111 said:

So I have studied the parts a bit and there seems to be at least 5 (!) different ecosystems:

Mindstorms EV3 / NXT

Wedo 2.0

Powered Up

Control+

Spike

Is it really so that these are not compatible? Lego support says for example that Spike hub does not connect to powered up devices. So if you would like to buy sets for Spike system, you are out of luck. This is grazy...

Well, EV3/NXT is definitely incompatible with the rest, but the other four are at least somewhat compatible. I think if you wanted to build something using both a Spike hub and a Control+ hub, getting them to communicate might not be possible, but motors can generally be swapped between the four lower systems you mentioned. Powered Up and Control+ are very much the same system, with pretty much full compatibility (It's really just System vs Technic branding, and different apps). WeDo 2.0 has the same motors and some different sensors from the Spike ones, but I'm not sure where software support for those sensors is.

[Lok24]

35 minutes ago, pekka111 said:

Is it really so that these are not compatible?

Mindstorms EV3 / NXT is different (old)

And again: Control+ is the name of the just one App.

And all others use the same plugs and protocol.

8 minutes ago, 2GodBDGlory said:

using both a Spike hub and a Control+ hub,

It's not the idea that hubs communicate with each other.
(And .... there is no "control+ hub")

[schraubedrin]

53 minutes ago, pekka111 said:

Powered Up

Control+

Spike

These three are all the same ecosystem, just different controllers (as far as i know)
pybricks supports them all.

[pekka111]

Lego says

The Control+ and Powered Up components aren’t designed to be compatible with the SPIKE Essential or SPIKE Prime hub, which means they won’t be detected by the SPIKE app.

https://www.lego.com/en-us/service/help/LEGO_Education/spike-essential-with-other-robotics-systems-kA009000001KVc8CAG

 

And:

The new hub and the motors also belong to the Powered Up family, so they share the same port and protocol like the Powered Up, the Boost and the Spike Prime sets.

https://racingbrick.com/2019/08/control-plus-aka-powered-up-new-hub-and-motors-clarification/

 

So physical ports and protocols are compatible but Lego apps will have issues while pybricks will work (as you said). I'm not going to mix hubs, but will buy sets on sale which have various motors and sensors, so they should work with any of the better new hubs. Probably getting Spike if find it for a good price.

Edited December 11, 2024 by pekka111

[pekka111]

1 hour ago, schraubedrin said:

These three are all the same ecosystem, just different controllers (as far as i know)
pybricks supports them all.

Thanks, this is great resource for selecting parts.

[Lok24]

13 hours ago, pekka111 said:

The Control+ and Powered Up components aren’t designed to be compatible with the SPIKE Essential or SPIKE Prime hub, which means they won’t be detected by the SPIKE app.

This is complete nonsense I fear.

1.) There are no Control+ Components
2.) Most PU components are much older then SPIKE - how should they be designed for SPIKE?
3.) "they won’t be detected by the SPIKE app." is exactly the opposite of the above.

Each element has a unique id, here a some of them:

   1: "Wedo 2.0 DC Motor",
    2: "Train DC Motor",
    38: "BOOST Interactive Motor",
    46: "Technic Large Motor",
    47: "Technic Extra Large Motor",
    48: "SPIKE Medium Angular Motor",
    49: "SPIKE Large Angular Motor",
    75: "Technic Medium Angular Motor",
    76: "Technic Large Angular Motor",

So: If the SPIKE Software (which means the sum of firmware and your application) does not recognize the "46" then the "Technic Large Motor" won't work with the Spike Hub.
But: Using another software it could work.

So item 3.) just confuses cause and effect

13 hours ago, pekka111 said:

Lego apps will have issues while pybricks will work (as you said).

 

No. You have to check in every single case/combination.
There is no "pybricks works", there are functions that do not work with every hub. And: not all hubs are supported.

12 hours ago, pekka111 said:

Thanks, this is great resource for selecting parts.

No, cause as you see: there is no differentiation  between SPIKE, technic and System. There are only "motors" and "Sensors".

If they work depends on software.
The SPIKE Matrix light (released 2021) works with the City Hub (2018) as well as the Wedo 2.0 Tilt Sensor (2016)

13 hours ago, pekka111 said:

Probably getting Spike if find it for a good price. 

It's only useful if you use one of the special features:

6 Ports / battery pack / beeper / 5x5 Matrix / button

And be aware that a second battery is needed

Edited December 12, 2024 by Lok24

[pekka111]

Thanks for the clarifications Lok24. What I mean by "Pybricks works" is that they list the compatible parts on their website. Though i would like to see the exact part numbers, since there are several parts that look exactly the same but I have no idea if they will work. For example

Technic / medium hub: 88012, 22127, 85824

Spike Small Angular motor: 68488, 45607

Pu XL motor: 88014, 22172

Color Sensor: 37308, 45605

Distance Sensor: 37316, 45604

Force Sensor; 37312, 45606

Is there any info on those, are they the same parts and thus compatible with Pybricks?

[Lok24]

Hi,

You mix up several things ;-)
In my opinion, without guarantee:

Lego has three numbers: set  number, design ID, element ID
Additionally  there are privat web sites like BrickOwl, BrickLink, BrickSet and others.

Each of them has its own numbers. Example:

88012  : the lego set (!) contain exactly one part, the hub

And on brickowl you find
LEGO Hub, Powered Up, 4-Port (Clip Opening) (22127 / 82484) and
LEGO Hub, Powered Up, 4-Port (Screw Opening) (85824)

So these are three different items.
On Brickset you find lots  of additional different numbers, on Bricklink as well.

So: no, these are not the same parts. But they do the same.

But: the medium angular motor was included in a mindstorms set and the SPIKE Set.
So they might have different internal IDs an behave different with specific software.
But as Pybricks lists both they will work.

You should
- choose a hub (SPIKE,technic, technic Move)
- choose motors and sensors
- look at the pybricks list

But this is different form the idea of using an Arduino?

[pekka111]

4 hours ago, Lok24 said:

So: no, these are not the same parts. But they do the same.

But: the medium angular motor was included in a mindstorms set and the SPIKE Set.
So they might have different internal IDs an behave different with specific software.
But as Pybricks lists both they will work.

I think/hope this too.

[Lok24]

17 hours ago, pekka111 said:

I think/hope this too.

It would be much easier to exactly  name the hub and the motor and the software you want to use.
Then someone could answer your question.

It is not possibly to answer these questions from theory.

You should start with the pybricks robots, there you can be sure that they work.

[Berthil]

5 hours ago, Lok24 said:

You should start with the pybricks robots, there you can be sure that they work.

Exactly my 3rd answer in this 41 posts long topic. So far I did not have issues with Pybricks and hardware from the Control+/WeDo/PoweredUp/City/SPIKE/Mindstorms or whatever name it has. Look at the plug that goes in the hub and if it fits it should work. Only the Move hub will have difficulty with Pybricks as it does not have enough working memory and the latest All-in-one hub as it has encrypted firmware and cannot be replaced byPybricks. So what Lok24 says, just start and come with clear questions.

[Lok24]

56 minutes ago, Berthil said:

and the latest All-in-one hub as it has encrypted firmware and cannot be replaced byPybricks.

Really? That would be a very bad decision by TLG.

Where does this info come from?

[Sokolov Edward]

Attaching an electric drive to Lego Technic is not the biggest problem now. You can find many projects on GitHub. But the main problem will be in the Lego parts - huge backlashes that cannot be calibrated or compensated will nullify all your efforts to program mechanical actions. To get an accurate mechanical response (movement, rotation, etc.), you need to use a stepper motor with feedback - there is simply nothing like this in Lego - this is a children's toy for learning the basics of robotics or inadequately moving cars. If you are satisfied with this level of control, then you can do this and get a lot of good emotions from the errors in their work.

[Berthil]

53 minutes ago, Lok24 said:

Where does this info come from?

From Pybricks (Laurens). We don't know if this is true for all future hubs but if it is, start buying the existing ones. I bought a second hand 51515 only for the hub. It can run all day connected to a 3 Ampere USB power source.

25 minutes ago, Sokolov Edward said:

stepper motor with feedback - there is simply nothing like this in Lego

Strange, all PowerdUp motors have a PID and can be power and angle controlled from the hub with Pybricks, except the smallest one that resembles the PowerFunctions M motor. How else would this be possible if your remark is correct?

 

Edited December 15, 2024 by Berthil
extra remarks

[pekka111]

7 hours ago, Lok24 said:

It would be much easier to exactly  name the hub and the motor and the software you want to use.
Then someone could answer your question.

It is not possibly to answer these questions from theory.

...

This Im trying to find out so I can search for suitable Lego sets on offer. I just bought (not received yet) a second hand 42160 Audi RS Q e-tron which has the "technic hub" and 3 motors to get started (if they work).

Edited December 15, 2024 by pekka111

[Sokolov Edward]

21 minutes ago, Berthil said:

Strange, all PowerdUp motors have a PID and can be power and angle controlled from the hub with Pybricks, except the smallest one that resembles the PowerFunctions M motor. How else would this be possible if your remark is correct?

In your example, the wheel is on the motor axis. Try to get the same result by transmitting rotation through several gears with play. There is no external rotation sensor in Lego.

[pekka111]

49 minutes ago, Sokolov Edward said:

Attaching an electric drive to Lego Technic is not the biggest problem now. You can find many projects on GitHub. But the main problem will be in the Lego parts - huge backlashes that cannot be calibrated or compensated will nullify all your efforts to program mechanical actions. To get an accurate mechanical response (movement, rotation, etc.), you need to use a stepper motor with feedback - there is simply nothing like this in Lego - this is a children's toy for learning the basics of robotics or inadequately moving cars. If you are satisfied with this level of control, then you can do this and get a lot of good emotions from the errors in their work.

IMHO those two wheel balancing robots are sign of sophisticated control enough. There is this rotation sensor but might be hard to find: https://www.brickeconomy.com/set/9756-1/lego-mindstorms-rotation-sensor

Edited December 15, 2024 by pekka111

[Sokolov Edward]

16 minutes ago, pekka111 said:

IMHO those two wheel balancing robots are sign of sophisticated control enough.

What's the difficulty? In addition to motors with a controlled angle of rotation, you need 2 more sensors - colors - to track the route line and a gyroscope to maintain position. If this is the limit of your desires, then you can easily repeat it. Lego motors were enough for me to build drifters and walkers with radio control. I have enough programming at work - I am interested in assembling something with my own hands in the real world, and not inside a PC.

[Lok24]

20 minutes ago, pekka111 said:

I just bought (not received yet) a second hand 42160 Audi RS Q e-tron which has the "technic hub" and 3 motors to get started (if they work).

Fine! That all works with Arduino, Powered Up App, Pybricks, BrickController 2 , CONTROL+ App and so on.
You should order some sensor for robotics ;-)

 

18 minutes ago, pekka111 said:

There is this rotation sensor but might be hard to find:

Almost every PU motor is also a rotation sensor. (except M, not sold any more, and train)

 

 

Edited December 15, 2024 by Lok24